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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
I tried today, and had to leave still feeling like she didn't get it. I am so frustrated. Maybe you guys can look at it and tell me if it makes no sense, or try to word it a different way, or explain it with your own experiences. Anything at all, honestly!!! I need help!!!
We were talking about what happened before when I walked out and then she wouldn't let me come back and I was trying to explain what some of my fears are. I told her I remembered her telling me that if anything ever got to be a problem (like I was doing something wrong, or something was getting in the way of our work together), she would talk to me about it before it got to be a really big deal. And I said that after the experience of seeing her the first time, I just didn't trust that would really happen.
As an example, I mentioned how she originally talked about me seeing a general practitioner for antidepressants. But, the last time we talked, she said I had to see a pdoc for a full evaluation and take whatever he/she suggested. And there was never a time in between where I felt like she explained this could be a reason we couldn't work together anymore. I mentioned that another reason she'd given was that I was "too ambivalent about therapy" and how we'd never, ever discussed that before.
She didn't really touch the ambivalence stuff at all. She just explained what she "might have been thinking" when she said general practitioner vs. when she said pdoc. And my thought was, "Ummm, OK....but we didn't TALK about it like you PROMISED." I just didn't feel like she'd heard me. Does it sound to you guys like she did?
So, then I used an example from Tuesday about my discomfort in seeing her more than once each week because I'm afraid that, at some point, it won't be OK with her anymore. She said Tuesday that she hoped we'd be talking about it. Today, in trying to explain all of this, I told her I'm not confident that we would. I'm afraid it'll be like hitting a wall again. And then she explained how what she'd meant is that, right now, it's a given to her that we'll meet a couple of times a week and that what she was talking about was if I called and asked for a third (which I've only done once, btw, and that was because we'd had a particularly helpful session and I'd wanted to continue the discussion). Ok, soooo NOT what I was looking for.
Anyway, I feel like she just didn't hear. Do you guys think she did? How else can I explain this?
Posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:39:20
In reply to Please help me explain this to my T, posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
That I was trying to give her examples to explain the bigger issue, and she was explaining the details of the examples. Does that make sense? Or am I missing something?
Is she not hearing me or am I not hearing her?
Posted by Honore on May 31, 2007, at 14:49:50
In reply to I guess what I'm trying to say is...., posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:39:20
Maybe she gets caught up in the smaller issues and doesn't know that they are only meant to explain, or be examples, of the larger issue.
I was talking to my T about this exact thing yesterday and a little today-- about what a huge issue it is for me, and how it prevents my getting what I need, or am hoping for, from people.
I can't write more now, but I'll have time later to say something about what he was saying, which might help.
Just wanted to say, hi, and say also that I"m sorry it's so so hard with your T right now. But at least she was saying she was planning to see you twice a week, on a regular basis. That's a good thing, isn't it? I mean-- she definitely is extending herself and wanting to be more involved, isnt' she?
And it would give you more time and space to get into these issues that are so complicated and thorny? which might make such a difference if only you could get her to understand.
(((Jammer)))
Honore
Posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 18:01:44
In reply to Re: I guess what I'm trying to say is.... » jammerlich, posted by Honore on May 31, 2007, at 14:49:50
i am sorry jammer.. i have to be honest..i have no clue what you are saying. Part of that is that i just don't know enough about all of it, part of it is that what you've said isn't clear to *me* and a big part is that i am so depressed my brain feels like i have the IQ of a box of hair.
If other have trouble understanding maybe you could put the facts in point form. You must be frustrated. I thought about not responding because i don't want to frustrate you... but i get the sense you'd rather know what i see. and i don't understand.
this is what i got...
the first time you were with her she had said she'd talk to you before things became a big deal, but then when you didn't do what she thought you should do she terminated without that talk about the big deal thing... yes?
beyond that i am lost... the second part i mean.. sorry
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2007, at 23:13:57
In reply to Please help me explain this to my T, posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
Ugh. I'm sorry. :(
I can't understand why she doesn't understand why this is a big deal.
Looking back, I think it was hard for my therapist to grasp this sort of thing at times, because it involved looking at his own actions and recognizing how important they were to me. I think that that was a difficult thing for him to accept.
Could that be part of her problem?
(Mind you, I think it's something based on my therapist's personal characteristics and may not be generalizable to other therapists.)
I seem to remember times when I just had to keep saying the same thing in different ways until finally I found a way where he heard what I was trying to say. Like finding a key for a lock. If it was important enough to me, I'd keep at it.
Wow, that is so interesting to remember. At this point he's more likely to say "I know" with either fondness or sadness or sympathy or amusement before I manage to finish my statement even. And he does know.
Posted by muffled on May 31, 2007, at 23:21:14
In reply to Please help me explain this to my T, posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
> I tried today, and had to leave still feeling like she didn't get it. I am so frustrated. Maybe you guys can look at it and tell me if it makes no sense, or try to word it a different way, or explain it with your own experiences. Anything at all, honestly!!! I need help!!!
**Wow Jammer I SO admire your tenacity. I have some sessions that suck, some that click...
>
> We were talking about what happened before when I walked out and then she wouldn't let me come back and I was trying to explain what some of my fears are. I told her I remembered her telling me that if anything ever got to be a problem (like I was doing something wrong, or something was getting in the way of our work together), she would talk to me about it before it got to be a really big deal. And I said that after the experience of seeing her the first time, I just didn't trust that would really happen.**So you walked out of an appt over ? and then what happened...? She phone or you phone? What did she say on phone? Or did she tell you in a session not to come back?
See I told my T over and over that I thot she would dump me, it was HUGE for me. And I don't think I am alone in this. And I TESTED my T, to see if she would run away from me. She didn't. She told me over and over and over that she would not dump me w/o a darn good reason and I think she gave some examples. So it should be clear to me why she dumped me if she did. I think its TERRIBLY HUGELY important that a client be able to feel safe with her T. I didn't feel safe when I was always afraid she would run away from me. I am FINALLY (mostly....) convinced she would not run away.
>
> As an example, I mentioned how she originally talked about me seeing a general practitioner for antidepressants. But, the last time we talked, she said I had to see a pdoc for a full evaluation and take whatever he/she suggested. And there was never a time in between where I felt like she explained this could be a reason we couldn't work together anymore. I mentioned that another reason she'd given was that I was "too ambivalent about therapy" and how we'd never, ever discussed that before.** this is a little unclear to me.
This was an out of the blue ultimatum? Is it possible you misunderstood her?
I guess a timeline of these events would be useful for us in helping you explain it better, or is it muddled in your mind?
Too ambivalent about therapy?????? Now THATS weird. I often hate T. Sometimes its OK. I am ambivalent. Soooooo????
>
> She didn't really touch the ambivalence stuff at all. She just explained what she "might have been thinking" when she said general practitioner vs. when she said pdoc. And my thought was, "Ummm, OK....but we didn't TALK about it like you PROMISED." I just didn't feel like she'd heard me. Does it sound to you guys like she did?**Is part of what you want to say is "you hurt me dammit, you hurt me BAD"? You shut me out, cut me off, I tried to trust you but I was scared, it was very very hard for me to go to T. And you hurt me. WHY did you hurt me? How can I know you won't hurt me again?
What my T says to the last question is, is that she proly WILL hurt me. NOT on purpose, but people hurt each other w/o meaning to. But thats where we talk about it and work it out. And in working it out, we respect each other and build trust in each other.
I think it takes time for T's to know us. Many of us are SO good a hiding away what we REALLY feel....
My T is finally starting to 'get' me. Its been VERY frustrating getting here, but dam it feels good when she does get it sometimes...
>
> So, then I used an example from Tuesday about my discomfort in seeing her more than once each week because I'm afraid that, at some point, it won't be OK with her anymore. She said Tuesday that she hoped we'd be talking about it. Today, in trying to explain all of this, I told her I'm not confident that we would. I'm afraid it'll be like hitting a wall again. And then she explained how what she'd meant is that, right now, it's a given to her that we'll meet a couple of times a week and that what she was talking about was if I called and asked for a third (which I've only done once, btw, and that was because we'd had a particularly helpful session and I'd wanted to continue the discussion). Ok, soooo NOT what I was looking for.**I just had a talk w/my T last session, and she gave me sh*t for twisting what she says. She said to me loud and clear 'YES YOU MAY PHONE 1x/wk just to connect. There needs to be no reason for the call. We can just chat.' God that was SOOOOO freaking hard for me to hear, I dunno why? But then I want to twist it round and say to myself, she didn't really mean it, or , if she did, and I DO call, she'll get mad, or, what if I call and annoy her at the wrong time, or...etc etc. So it was VERY clear this time....and I am trying hard not to twist it in my mind....
So it sounds pretty clear that she wants to do 2x/wk for now. It could be good. Really, I think you are doing all the right things in reading this. Keep at it. Ask for clarification, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, as much as you need to. I do that alot, cuz somettimes I find stuff just too hard to swallow.
>
> Anyway, I feel like she just didn't hear. Do you guys think she did? How else can I explain this?Not so sure, need more detail. Sounds like she IS trying, and thats great. I'd just keep beating this topic until you feel its done. Warn her that you will. S'ok. I find writing helpful too.
I am tired so mebbe I not make sense.
Mebbe I try again when I more awake!
Really I just think you doing SO great Jammer :-)
You reaching out, stretching out. S'all good.
Muffly
Posted by DAisym on June 1, 2007, at 0:26:32
In reply to Re: Please help me explain this to my T » jammerlich, posted by muffled on May 31, 2007, at 23:21:14
It seems to me that you are in one of those hard places where examples provide a way for the other person to focus on the minor details and not on the message. I'd stop trying to PROVE that you have a right to feel like you feel and instead focus on clearly saying what you feel.
You feel misunderstood.
You feel hurt from the way things ended before.
You don't trust that things won't suddenly end again.It is quite possible that you are projecting onto her some of your fears about people not being who you think they are. You have very good reasons to do this - both from her previous behavior AND the core issue that has you upside down right now. Someone very close to you turned out to be very different from what they appeared to be. Someone you loved and trusted. So your therapist "gets to" bear the brunt to those left over feelings. It is her job to let you transfer some of those feelings to her and then help you work through them.
Sometimes you have to keep repeating yourself in short sentences. And sometimes you just need to make of list of questions without attempting to know the answers. Questions I hear in your post are: Will you get tired of me if I come too much? How will I know if we are edging back to that place of termination? Are you aware that last time I had no idea it was at that level? Can you see how hurt I am? Do you really think you can help me?
Will I ever stop hurting?
I'm sorry Jammer -- I wish it wasn't so hard for you. Certainly you have enough to deal with -- I just think that all the crud in your life might be really coming into your therapy now, and that makes it hard but it also makes it possible to work through it.
Posted by Honore on June 1, 2007, at 1:48:52
In reply to Re: Please help me explain this to my T, posted by DAisym on June 1, 2007, at 0:26:32
Hi, jammer.
Sorry I didn't get back earlier.
Daisy said some of what I was talking about with my T. That is, that sometimes when one gives details of what happened-- the history of how you got to whatever you're feeling, or wanting, now-- the other person gets lost in the explanation.
That's what my T was saying: if I have a question, I need to push away all the introductions to it--- and say only what I want to know or what I need, in the present moment. Because those end up being distractions, and get the other person away from what I need now. Often the history has some kind of blame, or blaming- sounding thing for the other person-- so they too get caught up in justifying themselves-- when that doesn't help me at all-- in fact, it often confuses and frustrates me-- because it doesn't deal with my issue now.I think maybe your T is getting caught up in the forest-- because she doesn't yet know the core of what you need, or are concerned about. She isn't aware of your fears for what will happen between you and her now, and for the future- Even though you're very aware of how you came to feel this-- in a sense, what matters for the moment is not that-- but how to move into the future with her -- ie the history of the concern is- getting in the way of saying clearly what your concern is.- now
In talking to my T, I realized how often I do get caught up in long explanations and preambles-- and how that prevents the other person from understanding what I really want. It might be happening here, too.
I don't know if that helps, but I hope a does, a little.
Honore
Posted by Happyflower on June 1, 2007, at 8:01:40
In reply to Please help me explain this to my T, posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
Just wanted to give you a hug(((((jammer)))) I can't follow this post, but it is probably me, not what you wrote. I hope you can work all of this out with your T. Good luck
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 1, 2007, at 14:00:18
In reply to Re: Please help me explain this to my T, posted by Happyflower on June 1, 2007, at 8:01:40
First of all, a big hug
(((((((((((((((((((hug for jammer)))))))))))))))))))
It might help you to write and answer some of these questions for yourself, before you expect your T to be able to provide the answers for you
1) What am I afraid of (in life. in therapy?)
then start listing stuff. For me it would go something like this
I don't want to clean the house
I'm afraid of the stress of moving
I'm afraid that I won't survive the mood intact
I'm afraid of making new friends and connecting with a new T
I'm afraid of pushing people away, or not following up on relationships that I've forged
I'm afraid of ending up alone
I'm afraid of ending up alone forever
I'm afraid that there will be nothing to live for after I moveI've never done this before, by the way. ouch. it hurts to get down to the core of our fears.
maybe you can do a similar one with "hurt" as the topic. Again, I'll use myself as an example
How do I hurt?
my head and chest hurt
I hurt because I'm anxious about travelling
I hurt because I'm scared that if I don't hurt a doctor won't take me seriously
I hurt because I want the attention of doctors
I hurt because I want medicine to take care of me
I hurt because I want therapy to take care of me
I hurt because if medicine and therapy don't take care of my hurt then I will be all alone with my hurt
I hurt because I'm scared that if I am left alone I will die from hurt.Sh*t. I better write this stuff out for MY T. good god.
I have no idea if this will help you organize your thinking. It might help you if you wrote it all out and allowed your T to work from the bottom up. She (and you?) may be getting stuck in the superficials of "you said" "I said" without getting to the root of the problem, which is probably all wound up with fears, hurts, and their friends (anxieties, loss, pain...)
you are brave to mention this to your T. you will no doubt have a stonger relationship once you can find a way to lead the discussion to the next level (since she's kind of stuck, obviously)
best to you,
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 1, 2007, at 14:10:11
In reply to Re: Please help me explain this to my T » Happyflower, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 1, 2007, at 14:00:18
Posted by zenhussy on June 5, 2007, at 11:11:22
In reply to Please help me explain this to my T, posted by jammerlich on May 31, 2007, at 13:23:39
This is the end of the thread.
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