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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua on April 13, 2007, at 13:32:24
You've been kind of quiet lately, so my first message is I hope you're o.k. The second thing is that I know you've done a lot of "mother" work, which is what I have left. I have turned my T into the perfect mother, and she has been very good standing up for me and being there when I need her. Now, I've just kind of dismissed her. I know it's related to my mother, that I just sealed her off because she didn't, couldn't, whatever help me, although of course Inever came right out and asked for it. (As a mother myself, though, I'm certain there were signs.)
I talked this over with my T yesterday. She said I could leave therapy today (which I've been trying to do) and would function very well, but I wouldn't be "finished" with therapy. I understand what she means, but I don't know how important this might be to me in the long run. I have a much more open relationship with my mother since I told her about my father, and sometimes I think I need to work things out with her and not through my T.
My T says it's my final defense mechanism--pulling aways from her when I need to deal with the feelings my younger self had about my mother's inabilities to be there for me. I'm not sure about that. What do you think?
She told me to think about what would be my greatest fear in opening up this part to her. I've thought hard about this, and I'm afraid that the strength of my "paternal" transference that I put on other men (which was so very painful and long lasting) will erupt with her, and I'm not sure I want, can, etc. deal with it.
any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.
Let me add that I have a male pdoc, so I'm kind of playing out both parents here. He is a hardline type of guy (get over it, integration means there's no little girl, there's only you, etc., which is troubling at times, but I seem to react better to that, maybe because it's more authoritarian like my father). I'm usually strong enough to dismiss what he says when it doesn't fit, but last night he really tried to take away the little girl. (I had done something stupid and recognized that it had come from her, she was driving my self-destructive behavior). But if I deny her role, than I feel like I can't identify where the behavior is coming from. If it's from her, I can say, Oh, now I understand, but he says full integration means that me, the adult is driving the behavior. But that scare the bejeezus out of me because I'm not sure how to protect myself if I don't know where this behavior is coming from! To me, that puts me at such a greater risk for self-destructive behavior. Does this make any sense?
Help! one and all,
antigua
Posted by muffled on April 13, 2007, at 22:40:32
In reply to Daisy? Help!, posted by antigua on April 13, 2007, at 13:32:24
> Let me add that I have a male pdoc, so I'm kind of playing out both parents here. He is a hardline type of guy (get over it, integration means there's no little girl, there's only you, etc., which is troubling at times, but I seem to react better to that, maybe because it's more authoritarian like my father). I'm usually strong enough to dismiss what he says when it doesn't fit, but last night he really tried to take away the little girl. (I had done something stupid and recognized that it had come from her, she was driving my self-destructive behavior). But if I deny her role, than I feel like I can't identify where the behavior is coming from. If it's from her, I can say, Oh, now I understand, but he says full integration means that me, the adult is driving the behavior. But that scare the bejeezus out of me because I'm not sure how to protect myself if I don't know where this behavior is coming from! To me, that puts me at such a greater risk for self-destructive behavior. Does this make any sense?
> Help! one and all,
> antigua**OMG!!!! I am REALLY trying to be calm, really really really. OMG. My T tried to say that sort of thing initially b4 she really knew much bout my people, and I express very little emotions in T (other than fear), and I speak very little, but I SPOKE strongly when she tried to put away my people. I quite surprized myself and proly her too.
And I am sorta where your at I think? in that I do want to, well I DON'T want to (integrate-BAD WORD, my T says it don't mean killing others off....), but I DO want there to be less disruption from certain ones, primarily one.
So when I finally understood bout my people it was HUGE, HUGE, HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!! to me, cuz allasudden my perpetual mad confusion was explained. It was SUCH a releif.
So what you say makes PERFECT sense to me. The behaviour is from the child, its the child that needs to be helped.
For example, there is a part of me that is SO well adjusted, I can even fool my T, but then another part gets triggered into upset and it festers and boils over.
So I don't know how the heck you supposed to help the child if she is somehow melded to you?
For me, it was THE CHILD that was hurt, not me, SHE was, and she is the one who needs help. But I DO know she is me, and I understand that she is me when I was younger and she frozen there, and we share this body, but we are separate. Damn its weird. I STILL try and deny. But it just keeps comming up again and again.
I would not be able to figure ANYthing out w/o being able to have some sense of where stuff was comming from.
Sigh, I could go on and on, as you may have noticed I feel strongly bout this, and ARRRGGGGHHH, I wanna give your stupid p-doc a big kick in the *ss.
I am done.
Take care antigua.
Muffled
Posted by antigua on April 14, 2007, at 3:35:14
In reply to Re: Daisy? Help! » antigua, posted by muffled on April 13, 2007, at 22:40:32
Thanks muffled, sorry if I upset you. I think my pdoc is probably pushing integration too much and too soon. but knowing that makes it easier.
take care,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on April 15, 2007, at 2:53:51
In reply to Daisy? Help!, posted by antigua on April 13, 2007, at 13:32:24
Hey -- I'm sorry I didn't see this until now. I promise to write fully tomorrow, it is almost 1am and I'm exhausted. I presented my special project and graduated today. We had the ceremonies tonight and then a party. I have done almost nothing else for a few days - I had to get ready for this.
So, I'm off to sleep and will post tomorrow.
love.
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on April 16, 2007, at 0:03:44
In reply to Daisy? Help!, posted by antigua on April 13, 2007, at 13:32:24
Now, I've just kind of dismissed her. I know it's related to my mother, that I just sealed her off because she didn't, couldn't, whatever help me, although of course I never came right out and asked for it. (As a mother myself, though, I'm certain there were signs.)
****I think it is interesting that you say your therapist has been there for you but then you think you are shutting her out because you view her as your mother who wasn't there for you. So she doesn't matter. Is it possible that she is "better" than your own mom, whom you are trying to rebuild a relationship with? And if this is true, in some ways, is that hard to see over and over again? Just a thought...
I talked this over with my T yesterday. She said I could leave therapy today (which I've been trying to do) and would function very well, but I wouldn't be "finished" with therapy. I understand what she means, but I don't know how important this might be to me in the long run. I have a much more open relationship with my mother since I told her about my father, and sometimes I think I need to work things out with her and not through my T.
*********Yeah, see above. And, I don't think any of us are ever really finished with therapy. I just think that since you've told your mom, you are opening up your feelings about her. You are no longer working so hard to keep a giant secret, so many of the feelings that were trapped behind the secret are coming out. And I get that your therapist would be a good target for some anger...I'm mad at mine all the time for not being there to stop the abuse. It is so much easier for me to just pretend that things with me and my mom are OK - to not think about the past at all and just try to enjoy the relationship we have now. But it gets harder and harder, the more time I spend with her. As you've been around your mom, how has it felt? Is she more the mom you want her to be since you've told her? Or has it been, "gee, sorry, let's move on."My T says it's my final defense mechanism--pulling aways from her when I need to deal with the feelings my younger self had about my mother's inabilities to be there for me. I'm not sure about that. What do you think?
*********I think I agree with your therapist. I desperately only want to be mad at my dad. But I'm furious with my mom. And right now it is so unfair for me to be mad at her, she is grieving and she needs me. But I just can't escape the truth. I am mad at her and so, so sad that she couldn't really see me when I really needed her. And yet, if I'm mad at her, then who do I have left? I think you are in an even deeper place - you've told her, she accepted you and so to be mad at her right now might shake all that up. Hasn't our deepest fear always been that if our mom's find out, they will blame us? So now she knows, and she didn't blame you. So if you get mad at her, will she get mad back? Scary stuff.She told me to think about what would be my greatest fear in opening up this part to her. I've thought hard about this, and I'm afraid that the strength of my "paternal" transference that I put on other men (which was so very painful and long lasting) will erupt with her, and I'm not sure I want, can, etc. deal with it.
**** Meaning what? If you now have a mom, does your therapist convert to your dad? And if so, does that shake your relationship with her - - will you need her more or in a different way? I can see why this would be so frightening. And I think you are right to question whether you really need to go here. Mine is here, whether I want it or not, but if yours isn't, perhaps it isn't demanding to be opened up. I won't lie to you, I'm in a pretty painful place, feeling alone and not sure how to let my therapist help me. I think about quitting therapy at least once a week. Last week I told him I was leaving because there were too many demands on me from my mom to be the daughter she needs. And I can't do that and do therapy. He said we need to make space for me too, and for little daisy. He said she needs him and he is right. But I don't want to lose my mom to the anger either. (sorry, this isn't about me.)Let me add that I have a male pdoc, so I'm kind of playing out both parents here. He is a hardline type of guy (get over it, integration means there's no little girl, there's only you, etc., which is troubling at times, but I seem to react better to that, maybe because it's more authoritarian like my father). I'm usually strong enough to dismiss what he says when it doesn't fit, but last night he really tried to take away the little girl. (I had done something stupid and recognized that it had come from her, she was driving my self-destructive behavior). But if I deny her role, than I feel like I can't identify where the behavior is coming from. If it's from her, I can say, Oh, now I understand, but he says full integration means that me, the adult is driving the behavior. But that scare the bejeezus out of me because I'm not sure how to protect myself if I don't know where this behavior is coming from! To me, that puts me at such a greater risk for self-destructive behavior. Does this make any sense?*****I get both sides of this. Part of me wants to do what your Pdoc suggests -- really own the behaviors and the grief. But that would mean *I* would have to own the abuse too, and I just can't yet. It happened to her -- and slowly she is becoming me. I also think you find it a relief to not have to protect your little girl self -- you can join your pdoc in being harsh with her. And then your therapist's voice kicks in and you KNOW that your behavior IS coming from this younger part. I don't think full integration means you don't feel young sometimes and act from that place. I think it means we understand ourselves and embrace the complexity of everyone. Think about when you feel giddy or silly - don't you think that is a young place? We don't mess with that because it is safe to be playful, usually. Think about losing that side of you, if you were to close off your little girl completely. That wouldn't be good.
I wish I had more answers for you. I'm kind of brain dead still. I hope you had a good weekend.Love and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by antigua on April 18, 2007, at 11:52:04
In reply to Re: Daisy? Help! » antigua, posted by Daisym on April 16, 2007, at 0:03:44
I thought I sent you a congratulations post on your PhD, but I guess I forget to send. So
Congratulations!You said ****I think it is interesting that you say your therapist has been there for you but then you think you are shutting her out because you view her as your mother who wasn't there for you. So she doesn't matter. Is it possible that she is "better" than your own mom, whom you are trying to rebuild a relationship with? And if this is true, in some ways, is that hard to see over and over again? Just a thought...
I’m not sure what you mean here. My T has been a better mother to me than my own mother and that’s hard for me to deal with? That’s an interesting thought. I know I wouldn’t be who I am without either of my “mothers” and although my mother may have missed a lot, she sure showed me what bonding was—she had to have been wonderful when I was an infant or I wouldn’t be able to love or attach with my own children the way I have. My T says my father may have been the better caretaker, but my mother provided the emotional support, which was lacking after she had more babies after me. She seemed to do great with the babies, but we were pushed out of the nest, sometimes too early, when the next one came along.
*********I don't think any of us are ever really finished with therapy. I just think that since you've told your mom, you are opening up your feelings about her. You are no longer working so hard to keep a giant secret, so many of the feelings that were trapped behind the secret are coming out. And I get that your therapist would be a good target for some anger...
Maybe it’s covert anger, but I sure don’t feel it on the outside. She just doesn’t matter so much, which to me means I’m covering something up. She has been so important to my life, but now I just feel “blah” toward her.
***********As you've been around your mom, how has it felt? Is she more the mom you want her to be since you've told her? Or has it been, "gee, sorry, let's move on."
She is the same person. If I brought it up, she would probably be willing to talk about it, but I don’t bring it up. I feel closer to her, though, because the secret is no longer there. It’s just like my father—I’d rather skip over all the other steps to forgiveness, instead of going through what I need to go through.
*********I think I agree with your therapist. I desperately only want to be mad at my dad. But I'm furious with my mom. And right now it is so unfair for me to be mad at her, she is grieving and she needs me. But I just can't escape the truth. I am mad at her and so, so sad that she couldn't really see me when I really needed her. And yet, if I'm mad at her, then who do I have left? I I think you are in an even deeper place - you've told her, she accepted you and so to be mad at her right now might shake all that up. Hasn't our deepest fear always been that if our mom's find out, they will blame us? So now she knows, and she didn't blame you. So if you get mad at her, will she get mad back? Scary stuff.
I have gotten mad at my mother since I told her, and funny enough we worked it out. I spoke up, so did she and then she called me back to make things right. I was proud of her, and me for speaking up. Daisy, it’s not unfair of you to be mad at your mother when she needs you. You aren’t her caretaker. You’ve always said she was this super competent person, and you have to take care of yourself FIRST. I can see why this would make you so angry, though.
**** Meaning what? If you now have a mom, does your therapist convert to your dad? And if so, does that shake your relationship with her - - will you need her more or in a different way? I can see why this would be so frightening. And I think you are right to question whether you really need to go here. Mine is here, whether I want it or not, but if yours isn't, perhaps it isn't demanding to be opened up. I won't lie to you, I'm in a pretty painful place, feeling alone and not sure how to let my therapist help me. I think about quitting therapy at least once a week. Last week I told him I was leaving because there were too many demands on me from my mom to be the daughter she needs. And I can't do that and do therapy. He said we need to make space for me too, and for little daisy. He said she needs him and he is right. But I don't want to lose my mom to the anger either. (sorry, this isn't about me.)I think what I’m afraid of is that a whole new type of transference will occur, which probably will. The “paternal” transference was horrible (and still is), but what if the maternal transference is so much worse? I’m not sure I can, or am willing, to do that. I spent years dealing w/the paternal transference and I recognize it now, and I don’t know if I can ever stop it from happening with certain type of men, but what if “maternal” transference is so much worse? It seems so raw and child-like…
*****I get both sides of this. Part of me wants to do what your Pdoc suggests -- really own the behaviors and the grief. But that would mean *I* would have to own the abuse too, and I just can't yet. It happened to her -- and slowly she is becoming me. I also think you find it a relief to not have to protect your little girl self -- you can join your pdoc in being harsh with her. And then your therapist's voice kicks in and you KNOW that your behavior IS coming from this younger part. I don't think full integration means you don't feel young sometimes and act from that place. I think it means we understand ourselves and embrace the complexity of everyone. Think about when you feel giddy or silly - don't you think that is a young place? We don't mess with that because it is safe to be playful, usually. Think about losing that side of you, if you were to close off your little girl completely. That wouldn't be good.
I’m not sure I want to totally integrate. Yesterday I had to have a routine medical surgery, but I was put under. I knew as soon as they rolled me into the room that I felt like a scared, little girl. I got through the procedure just fine, but today I ‘m a mess, and I can’t find the little girl to comfort her. How is that helpful? I’d rather know she’s there and be able to help her when she calls for me. This just feels like one dreadful hurt, and I can’t find the little girl to help her. I don’t see that as progress.
Thanks for posting, and congratulations again,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on April 18, 2007, at 15:18:39
In reply to Re: Daisy? Help! Trigger » Daisym, posted by antigua on April 18, 2007, at 11:52:04
<<<<<I think what I’m afraid of is that a whole new type of transference will occur, which probably will. The “paternal” transference was horrible (and still is), but what if the maternal transference is so much worse? I’m not sure I can, or am willing, to do that. I spent years dealing w/the paternal transference and I recognize it now, and I don’t know if I can ever stop it from happening with certain type of men, but what if “maternal” transference is so much worse? It seems so raw and child-like…
>>>>>>Now this is interesting. When you felt a paternal transference, what did it feel like? I think recognizing what certain people call out in us is all we can really ask of ourselves - eradicating it might just not be possible. But catching ourselves - now there's the trick.
Maternal transference I equate with a deep longing for safety and soothing. So womb-like, but without feeling suffocated or drowning -- just enveloped in the warmth of my mother and soothed by her consistent, predictible heart beat. Ah - the fantasy of safety.
It is raw and painful and I think, life-long grief.
After reading your reply, I was struck by how balanced it sounded and how healthy. Perhaps you really don't "need" your therapist anymore, because you have your mom in a deeper way. AND perhaps now you need your therapist in a different way, to have her be a stand in for some other deeply buried, potentially painful issue. So you are at a cross-roads - commit to figuring it out and opening it up or gently adding another brick to the top of that box and being OK with not opening it. I think both are fine, and I imagine, hard to choose between because there is always a pull to see things to "completion." But as long as we breathe there can't be completion, can there?
Anyway, thanks for asking for my advice, I'm honored. And as far as congrat's - I'm half done with the PhD - the clinical part is mostly done. I'm certified now though - I just have to expand the project stuff into a fullblown dissertation. Ug. I'm too old for this.
Posted by Daisym on April 18, 2007, at 15:21:12
In reply to Re: Daisy? Help! Trigger » Daisym, posted by antigua on April 18, 2007, at 11:52:04
I meant to ask how things were with you, as a mom, with a college-age child now. Letting go is very hard and letting them come back is very hard too. For me it called up a bunch of mom stuff around her way of letting me go and me not wanting to ever go back.
Just a random thought.
Posted by antigua on April 18, 2007, at 18:39:40
In reply to Straggler thought » antigua, posted by Daisym on April 18, 2007, at 15:21:12
Gosh, I hope my son wants to come back! It really wasn't so hard letting him go because I also thuoght that I brought him up to watch him fly. I really didn't have as hard of a time letting go as I thought I would.
I, too, never wanted to come back home after I left. I was living with my father in my teenage years because my mother left me in his care when she flitted off to Europe with my two younger brothers. When she sent me back to live with him, I thought I would die.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 0:15:11
In reply to Re: Straggler thought » Daisym, posted by antigua on April 18, 2007, at 18:39:40
I'm so sorry. I bet that was very painful. Were you going back into an abusive situation or was this the beginning of it?
My parents split for a year or so and then she went back to him. I was so conflicted - I missed him and I feared him. It was awful for me, trying to be perfect so he wouldn't leave again and bad enough so he wouldn't touch me either. We've been working on this hot spot a little, the time before they were back together. It is hard to tell these stories and hard for my therapist to hear them. He gets upset and angry for me. Once he lost himself to the anger and it scared me. But there is a deep need to get this out and deal with it.
Summer with a college age kid is interesting - your rules or their rules? Together we had to make new rules, but it worked.
Posted by antigua on April 19, 2007, at 9:47:15
In reply to Re: Straggler thought » antigua, posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 0:15:11
No, my abuse occurred when I was very young before my parents split. But going back to him was to face rejection from him. I know that sounds funny because I never had to fight him off again, but I wasn't his little girl anymore. He had a whole new family (with two girls my age who were GORGEOUS) and I was totally separated from my family. At 14, it was a terrible experience. He was drunk most nights and his new family and wife already hated him.
Yes, this summer should be fun with a college age kid. He has already told me that I can't tell him what to do anymore, but this house can't be party central when I have two younger children. I'll be glad to see him, though, we've always had a strong relationship.
antigua
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