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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 42. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
I barely got any sleep last night, because all of the sudden I had this sickening thought/fantasized scenario-thing that the next time I see my T, instead of us trying to talk about my feelings for him, that he’s made a referral for me to go to a woman T and asking me to sign some sort of document so that he could have my permission to talk to her further about my issues with him...it’s like I could already see it happening. I felt physically sick. I’ve never self-injured but last night while I was tossing and turning and thinking about all this, I was really tempted to do it.
I worry he’ll refer me elsewhere because he’s seen me for 2 years already and primarily sees adolescents, so I really doubt he has much experience in dealing with a client’s attraction to him. even though we had already kind of talked about it before, I went more into detail this time about how I felt. Would it be wrong for him to terminate therapy with me over this? If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal.
And even if it’s true that the attraction is mutual, couldn’t work still be accomplished despite our feelings for each other? It’s not like I’ve ever, ever tried to physically come on to him before. This whole thing is so hard to explain. I’d write more in detail about it but I’m seriously scared he’ll find out I wrote this stuff. I just feel so alone in my life right now. he’s really the only person I have, to talk to about my issues. no one else is there for me. I really do think I’ll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me. Because I just feel sick. I don't have anybody else to help me. If he does this to me, there's no one left.
I’m sorry I have been posting so much lately. I might need to take a break soon, I feel bad like I’m not being responsive enough to everybody else or that I'm coming across as a hypocrite (when responding to ElaineM’s post) but I really only mean well. But maybe my thinking is so distorted right now I’m only making things worse for everyone. Everyone here, everyone I deal with in my life. I don’t know what to do anymore.
-Karolina-
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 18:42:59
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
Karolina, Please don't feel like a hypocrite. I'm coming to understand that everyone's relationship with their T is totally different, everyone's situation is different. You are more than helpful by just responding at all, by being honest. I feel for you because we have some similarities, but you are also entitled to whatever feelings you have. All of them. I can understand how difficult it would be for you to feel one way, and support another at the same time. It is the context that matters, and that changes for each individual. And, I get it cause I still feel strongly for my T and want to be close to him.
Please don't feel like you have to qualify your posts. Everyone deserves help with whatever is relevant to them.
I was wondering if your appointment was coming up, cause I remembered about your letter to him. I just didn't want to upset you. And I didn't know if I'd be in the state of mind to write very coherently. I care about how things are going with your situation and I hope you always let us know about how you are coping. You don't have to go through it alone.
I don't knowledge anything about regulations involving termination so I'll leave that to others with more knowledge but I couldn't not post to say that I support you, and to give you hugs for your next session. ((((((Karolina))))))
El
Posted by happyflower on June 20, 2006, at 20:43:26
In reply to Re: i feel sick, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 18:42:59
Hi Karoline,
I think if he was going to terminate because of this, he would have by now. But it seems like he is working with you on this, so I would relax. But I do think a lot of think our T's are going to terminate us for a lot of different reasons and most do not.
I think that a T and a client who are mutally attracted to each other can work together well, if it stays professional. I know my T and I are mutually attracted to each other. It is there, like a big pink elephant in the room, but yet we can still do good work too. But sometimes we have to feed the elephant, and that is hard. ((((Karoline)))) Take care, and try to get some good sleep tonight. :-)
Posted by Daisym on June 21, 2006, at 0:30:21
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
I understand the fear and the worry. I think every therapist is different -- they've all had different training and experience. Transference is a super hard thing...Have you read "In Session"?
This sounds like a discussion you need to be having with your therapist. I think you owe it to yourself to ask him if he thinks he can continue to work effectively with you. And I think you need to ask yourself what your goals for therapy are, and if this is getting in the way...or is this THE thing you need to be working on? Only time will really tell if you can continue effective therapy.
But you certainly aren't alone when it comes to both the feelings and the worry. I hope things settle down for you soon.
Posted by scentedgarden on June 21, 2006, at 4:41:43
In reply to Re: i feel sick, posted by happyflower on June 20, 2006, at 20:43:26
> I think that a T and a client who are mutally attracted to each other can work together well, if it stays professional. I know my T and I are mutually attracted to each other. It is there, like a big pink elephant in the room, but yet we can still do good work too. But sometimes we have to feed the elephant, and that is hard.
Hi Happyflower....... can I ask what do you mean by feed the ele[hant sometimes? Thanks alot!!! best wishes scentedgarden
Posted by happyflower on June 21, 2006, at 5:54:00
In reply to Re: i feel sick » happyflower, posted by scentedgarden on June 21, 2006, at 4:41:43
Hi Scentedgarden,
I guess I learned this from Babble a long time ago, and I just adjusted some of the wording.
I guess the pink elephant referes to the "big thing" that is in the room (mutual attraction), that we both can see and feel, but we are both trying not to acknowlege it. I guess that is what it means. And when I say feed the elephant, I am meaning that sometimes we have to stop and actually deal with it (feeding it) sometimes.
I like to use anolgies a lot, even in my poetry, so I realize it can get confusing or weird. LOLHey, did you get my 2nd email?
Posted by happyflower on June 21, 2006, at 5:54:51
In reply to Re: i feel sick » happyflower, posted by scentedgarden on June 21, 2006, at 4:41:43
Posted by scentedgarden on June 21, 2006, at 6:08:23
In reply to ***post above for scentedgarden*** (nm), posted by happyflower on June 21, 2006, at 5:54:51
hIYA !!!!!!!
Thx for the info on the pink elefant.... i see now that you mean sometimes we have to talk about the attraction...but the therapist never really brings it up do they? its always us patients/clients who have to ...bummer!!
so anyway yes i think i got the 2nd one and i was just going to reply now so if youre there i will reply now......see you there...wish we couls live chat!!!!! dont you have msn or yahoo...?? its dead easy to get a hotmail account you know...nudge nudge wink wink...
bye bye from scentedgarden
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 17:14:24
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
> I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me.
Oooh shound like a plan! @@ Seriously, you've GOT to be kidding me! Oh good, trap him, force him to stay with you. Sounds like a great therapeutic relationship.
Sorry, I just cringe when people "threaten suicide". Sounds like you've got it all planned out. @@ Why not just talk to him? Not saying it will be easy, but threaten? Why manipulate the guy?
I had a friend threaten suicide if her T didn't take her back. Well the therapist stood her ground, and I guess I'm writing this for my friend who is no longer around to share her story.
> If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal.
At least this is better. This is how you would feel; fine. *Feeling that way would be fine; it's normal. But, "I'll threaten....." (?) Please.
Posted by annierose on June 21, 2006, at 18:02:40
In reply to Re: i feel sick » Karolina, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 17:14:24
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 18:16:51
In reply to Re: i feel sick » Karolina, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 17:14:24
> Oooh shound like a plan! @@ Seriously, you've GOT to be kidding me!Please don't be sarcastic or treat injury or death lightly.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 18:20:49
In reply to Deputies need for above post ASAP (nm), posted by annierose on June 21, 2006, at 18:02:40
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 18:34:28
In reply to Please be civil » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 18:16:51
> Please don't be sarcastic or treat injury or death lightly.
>Actually, with all due respect, I wasn't being sarcastic or treating death lightly at all. Wouldn't the person who says "I think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me" be taking death lightly? Suicide is a serious thing. Maybe it's just a major gripe of mine when someone threatens it in a manipulative way. I already lost a friend that way. I hate the term being used so loosely.
My post was not snarky at all. In fact, I encouraged the poster to talk to her therapist. I even said *feeling suicidal might even be normal. But to threaten suicide as a plan if you don't get your way is a little ridiculous if you really think about it.
Posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:50:11
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 18:34:28
Hi CatieCat
> Actually, with all due respect, I wasn't being sarcastic or treating death lightly at all. Wouldn't the person who says "I think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me" be taking death lightly? Suicide is a serious thing. Maybe it's just a major gripe of mine when someone threatens it in a manipulative way. I already lost a friend that way. I hate the term being used so loosely.
Thanks for sharing about your friend. I’m so sorry. I lost a friend to suicide too. It’s awful.
> My post was not snarky at all. In fact, I encouraged the poster to talk to her therapist. I even said *feeling suicidal might even be normal. But to threaten suicide as a plan if you don't get your way is a little ridiculous if you really think about it.
I know you’re hurting. And I can hear that your post comes out of that hurt. But I wonder if you may be jumping to conclusions when you suspect the threat is being used loosely. I don’t know if you’ve ever felt suicidal yourself. I have. In fact, I regularly feel suicidal; it’s a symptom of my illness.
I haven’t yet threatened suicide, but I have threatened to cut myself. I can imagine myself threatening suicide. And it would mean I was at the end of my resources. I cope as well as I can. But my coping skills are severely depleted. To me, threatening suicide would be a sign that I simply couldn’t imagine any way of living with the pain. And however trivial that pain might seem to other people, it wouldn’t seem trivial to me.
I hope you’re not offended by my rather candid remarks. I don’t want to offend you. I just want to explain how I view threats of suicide. I think they’re entirely serious. I don’t think people threaten suicide lightly.
I hope you can understand that the threat you read about here came from a very deep and intolerable pain, and was not calculated to be manipulative.
Best wishes,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:52:40
In reply to CatieCat » CatieCat, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:50:11
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:44:44
In reply to CatieCat » CatieCat, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:50:11
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 18:34:28
> Maybe it's just a major gripe of mine when someone threatens it in a manipulative way.
and
>But to threaten suicide as a plan if you don't get your way is a little ridiculous if you really think about it.
I'm sorry about your friend. I'm sure that's a very painful loss. Still, given that we are to be supportive and sensitive in our posts here, would you please rephrase the above statements? If you have questions or concerns about this request, please feel free to email or babblemail one of the deputies (me, Dinah, and Auntie Mel) or Dr. Bob for assistance.
Again, you can also check out the FAQ about civility guidelines. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> My post was not snarky at all.
I never said it was.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 20:37:10
In reply to CatieCat » CatieCat, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:50:11
> I know you’re hurting. And I can hear that your post comes out of that hurt. But I wonder if you may be jumping to conclusions when you suspect the threat is being used loosely. I don’t know if you’ve ever felt suicidal yourself. I have. In fact, I regularly feel suicidal; it’s a symptom of my illness.
Yes, I have felt suicidal many times, and I also understand the original posters pain.
> I hope you’re not offended by my rather candid remarks. I don’t want to offend you. I just want to explain how I view threats of suicide. I think they’re entirely serious. I don’t think people threaten suicide lightly.
>
> I hope you can understand that the threat you read about here came from a very deep and intolerable pain, and was not calculated to be manipulative.
>I'm not offended at all. In fact, I appreciate that you understood where I was coming from as well. My only point, which I'll say again is that I wasn't bothered by the original poster saying she felt (or would feel) suicidal; to be honest, I would too! It's the way she said she would threaten suicide if he tries to terminate. Maybe it's the word threaten that I am having a problem with. I don't know. I understand it's a serious thing, maybe that is why I would *feel it, but not *threaten to threaten my therapist with that. Does that make sense? I'm just trying to be clear, and not rude. But I do appreciate you taking the time to try and understand where I am coming from as well.
Catie
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 20:45:03
In reply to Please rephrase » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
> Still, given that we are to be supportive and sensitive in our posts here, would you please rephrase the above statements?
Should I just offer hugs and fluff? I mean the other responses were fine, but noone addresses the threat to the therapist?
> > My post was not snarky at all.
>
> I never said it was.Neither did I, that was my word.
GG,
I'm really not trying to be rude, and to be honest, if you read my above post to Tamar, you may see where I am coming from. (especially with you also being in the MH field). Like I said, maybe it's just the wording. Feeling that way is one thing, and I would be more than supportive, but to flat out threaten to threaten the action if one doesn't get their way, well, I guess I just have a problem with that. Sorry.Catie
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:12:31
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
((((Karolina))))
I know how hard it can be to be in distress and then have that distress be the subject of discussion.
If it means anything to you, I understand completely what you mean. When my therapist told me something the other day that threatened my therapy, I responded with a threat of suicide to him. It wasn't premeditated and I'm not proud of it. And if I had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't. Not least because I was instantly afraid of how he'd respond.
But I too am so attached to him that the thought of losing him is scarier than *anything*.
It's completely natural to be scared after revealing something so personal. Therapists vary widely in their ability to handle these things, but you haven't said anything to suggest to me that he'll respond in an overwhelmingly negative way.
Will you let me know how it goes? I really do want to know how he responds. And don't worry about whether you are being responsive enough here. We all give when we can, and take when we need, and that's ok. That's what the board is for.
((((Karolina))))
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
In reply to Please rephrase » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
I've given it more thought, and it is the word 'threaten' that I have a problem with. (And I admit, maybe it is just my problem.)
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone take their own life (or hurt themself at all for that matter!). But to me, there is a big difference between saying, "I feel __________" or "I feel like _______ ________" and making a blanket threat (or a threat to threat).
I'm having a hard time articulating this.
Here are two comments from this original post:
"If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal."
Now, I don't have a problem with this. It's an honest expression of a feeling as a result of a potential undesired action. I can totally empathize with that. I've already admitted that I've felt that way plenty of times before and can say that at this point in time, if my therapist wanted to terminate with me now, I would feel the same way.
and
"I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me."
Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
Catie
Posted by Adrift on June 21, 2006, at 21:30:12
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
>Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
yes, I see it the same way as you
Posted by orchid on June 21, 2006, at 21:38:41
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
> I've given it more thought, and it is the word 'threaten' that I have a problem with. (And I admit, maybe it is just my problem.)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone take their own life (or hurt themself at all for that matter!). But to me, there is a big difference between saying, "I feel __________" or "I feel like _______ ________" and making a blanket threat (or a threat to threat).
>
> I'm having a hard time articulating this.
>
> Here are two comments from this original post:
>
> "If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal."
>
> Now, I don't have a problem with this. It's an honest expression of a feeling as a result of a potential undesired action. I can totally empathize with that. I've already admitted that I've felt that way plenty of times before and can say that at this point in time, if my therapist wanted to terminate with me now, I would feel the same way.
>
> and
>
> "I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me."
>
> Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
>
> CatieHi Catie,
I think there might be a difference in the intention behind the *threaten* word that probably would make all the difference.
Some people threaten death or suicide just to get their way with world. Oh if you don't do this, I will commit suicide, of course with clearly no intention of doing so ever. THAT is what is morally wrong, if you ask me, and that is just plain and blatant manipulation.
On the ohter hand, there are somethings which *really* makes a person extremely anxious and evokes extreme pain in them, that they don't think they can live through it. Losing a therapist many times evokes intense suicidal feelings - you are going to loose the one person who cared about you the most in the world - that is hard for anyone to take, and people feel usually suicidal with abrupt terminations. And her saying that she might threaten her T, comes from the fact that she anticipates the intense pain that she will be in if her T terminates her over what she said to him. And that is really very understandable, especially so, if you have ever been through with a T and termination. It is not a ploy to manipulate the T, but it is a way of letting out the intense pain that she feels or anticipates to feel. And I think she is only trying to make it clear how much he means to her.
I do understand your feelings about suicide, I have lost couple of friends to suicide too, and they are extremely hard to take. But I think Karolina was only expressing her pain, and trying any desperate attempt to save the relationships (even if that involves a little threatening), so that she (god forbit not) isn't forced to hurt herself by losing him. It is a desperate attempt to save herself, and not to hurt the T.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:42:54
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
You can think and feel anything you want, but your ability to voice the thoughts are limited by the civility rules.
Which don't allow you to post anything that could lead another poster to feel accused or put down. Which don't allow you to categorize the posts or other posters in negative terms.
You might wish to review the link gg (who is an official deputy of this site) gave you.
Deputies are available by email or babblemail to help you review your rephrase before posting it, if that will help.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:45:54
In reply to Here is my take » CatieCat, posted by orchid on June 21, 2006, at 21:38:41
That was lovely, Orchid.
It was certainly the way I felt when I did it.
Bless my therapist for understanding that.
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