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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on May 31, 2006, at 23:10:16
I saw my therapist out in the community for the first time last week. He didn't see me. We were shopping at the same store. My initial impulse was to introduce my son to him. There was this surge of excitement and then, wham! I got hit with this huge wave of embarrassment, like I wasn't supposed to be there, like I was intruding on his personal life -- like, boy-oh-boy, ARE YOU IN TROUBLE! It made me shake and feel sick. And it brought up so much sadness. I guess he does have a "real" life that doesn't include me.
I waited until almost the end of the session yesterday before I "confessed" that I'd seen him. And that is how I did it too...I said, "I need to tell you something." So we talked about what it would be like to run into him in public and he said he was surprised it hadn't happened before. He said, "Of course we say hi" which made me smile. And then he went on to talk about protecting my privacy, etc. He stopped when he saw my tears and backed up. He said lots of people have mixed feelings about seeing their therapist out in public, so it was understandable that I felt sort of upset. We talked about where the sadness came from and moved into the realm of my feelings for him. We've talked about these many times, but I keep thinking they will go away. I told him that I was worried that I had some secret fantasy that eventually we would be together -- secret even from myself. He nodded and said it was possible. But more likely it was just jarring and scary to think that he wasn't holding me in his thoughts constantly. I told him that is brought up so many questions for me and opened that whole can of "do you like me?" worms. He wanted to know what "like" meant - and what would it mean to me if he did? Luckily, session time was up.
Today he brought it up gently and I told him that being likable meant doing stuff for people. But it called into question so many things I don't like to think about -- like physical attractiveness. I don't want to care about being attractive, but I do. I don't think I am -- I weigh too much, my nose is too big and I hate my hair -- but I know I dress nice. I called it "putting on the right costume." It was such a hard thing to talk about - wanting to be attractive and yet not wanting to be too attractive and I kept saying, "I'm not making any sense, am I?" He said he thought that my internal experience didn't make sense which is why this is such a hard subject. All little girls need to know they are pretty and yet it was very dangerous for me to be attractive to my dad. And my dad was always telling me what a beautiful young woman I was and he liked to take pictures of me. My therapist said I've never told him that - I guess it is a subject I avoid well.
I did share that lots of people here find it very hard to talk about weight and looks, etc. in therapy. He was surprised at that. "Harder than sex?" I said at least as equally hard.
It was a hard session. I spun out, and got very frightened of the chaos I was feeling. I told him not to push this subject. He didn't. But he didn't let it go completely either. Eventually we arrived at that inevitable place of him wanting to know if this was connected to yesterday and me wanting him to like me. Of course it is! But I said I just didn't think I could handle it if he didn't like me and he didn't think I was attractive, even if he still cared about me as a client. But if he did think I was attractive, did that make him dangerous? He said I was safe with him, that all these feelings were coming up because they were safe to explore with him. And he said it was important that I reclaim my body as mine and not have such a hatred for it. I don't know how.
Because I really don't want it. I want to just be a mind and spirit. But I know I want to look better too. So how does all that fit together? And how do you bring that into therapy? This is a no win situation for him, he just doesn't know it yet. If we talk about how I could lose weight, I will think he thinks I need to. If we talk about exercise and healthy eating, I will think he thinks I need to lose weight. If we talk about using physical exercise as a stress reduction technique, I will think he thinks I need to lose weight. And I already know I do, I just want to pretend that he hasn't noticed.
This is definitely one of the hardest things I've talked about so far. :(
Posted by Tamar on June 1, 2006, at 2:43:30
In reply to Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2006, at 23:10:16
I have to be very very quick here... I have to go somewhere in a minute. But almost everything you said about body image resonates with me very strongly. And I would much rather talk about sex in therapy than about body image (oddly, therapy is the one place I find it really hard to talk about sex). I'm going to think about what you said and try to reply more extensively later.
Thanks for raising this: it's a really important issue for me too.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 21:53:19
In reply to Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2006, at 23:10:16
These things really resonate with me too daisy....and once again your ability to tell your T what you're thinking seems so incredible to me. From what you've said I know it was incredibly hard...but you look at issues from so many angles and express your thoughts so well. You actually say things I feel inside, but haven't come to consciousness until you say them - then it kind of strikes me.
Would you feel any differently now if you saw your T in public? It's one of those things I don't give much thought, till a babbler brings it up, then I give it a lot of thought...which maybe good in case it ever happens.
Body image is a big issue for me too. It's one of those things that makes me bristle.....and like you, I hope he doesn't notice I'm overweight... not likely. Or if he does notice I hope he won't say anything, but if he doesn't say anything I wonder what he thinks. My last T said "it's not like you're huge or anything..." I wanted to smack him! I can't seem to hide behind my clothes.
Ah, it's all so hard.
fw
Posted by Daisym on June 3, 2006, at 23:20:15
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy » Daisym, posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 21:53:19
I think people talk about body image more often if they have anorexia than if they are over weight and yet my guess is that "we" struggle just as much with bringing it up in therapy. And I'm not sure that therapists are all that comfortable with the subject either. I think there must be more training with anorexia and specific eating disorders, rather than plain old weight issues. It seems to me that this is where CBT would be really helpful, to try and figure out why you either eat too much or exercise too little, or both. And then change those behaviors.
As far as bringing stuff up, I struggle really hard with certain things. But my therapist can usually tell if I'm holding something back or thinking about one thing and talking about another. I told him that means we've worked together way too long. :) I feel like I've tossed my pride out the window half the time, because the stuff I'm feeling feels awfully stupid. But he reminds me that there are many different parts operating so what feels mortifying for the adult is reasonable for a younger part.
Makes me wonder which part wants to be fat? *sigh*
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 0:02:48
In reply to Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2006, at 23:10:16
One thing I like is that my therapist never tries to pretend that I'm not correct in my self assessment.
He might suggest that there are things I can do to improve my appearance, if I really wanted to. But he never tells me anything untrue.
That makes it a bit easier to talk about. Because if I felt that he felt he needed to politely protest, I could never mention it at all.
As it is, it is a far harder subject to address than sex. For sure. Although I have a sneaking suspicion those are two subjects that really ought to be discussed together.
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 0:03:10
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 0:02:48
Posted by Daisym on June 4, 2006, at 1:13:53
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 0:02:48
I'm sure you are right.
I've wondered if it is harder to talk about weight if your therapist is over-weight too. Mine isn't, he seems in pretty good shape. But I remember reading a web site by the guy who liked holding therapy and he admitted that he couldn't do it with overweight women. How sad is that?!
One of the hardest things I've ever said is that I feel like I am so out of line for having feelings for my therapist because I'm not good enough for him, meaning not attractive enough, not funny enough, etc. I mean, if he is going to mess around with a client, why would he pick me to do that with?! That is pretty presumptuous on my part, isn't it?
I have to wonder if it is easier for attractive people in some ways, though I'm sure there is a flip side. Wow, this is a hard topic for me.
Posted by fairywings on June 4, 2006, at 20:55:38
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy » fairywings, posted by Daisym on June 3, 2006, at 23:20:15
I guess you're right daisy - it would be hard for a T to bring up body image when they know it might be a sensitive issue. My pdoc asked me if I had anorexia as a teen-ager. I was so taken off guard - I immediately denied it, knowing full well I did.
My T brought up body image in relation to sex.... I found myself being really defensive, and lying to him initially. He dropped it, but I wonder if he knew body image is a sore spot for me. It feels really shameful. I was going to talk to him this week about lying to him. It's my initial reaction when I'm defensive about something, but I'm not sure he knows I do it.
Your T is very perceptive. It's amazing you've gotten to that place with him - that's what I'm striving for . I never thought of the parts of me that are afraid to say things because it feels stupid...but you're right, it is the adult who stifles me. There were some things I wanted to tell my T this week, but when I wrote them down I thought...I'd never be able to tell him this because it's sounds so stupid! LOL Once again you're two steps ahead of me. ; )
I don't know about you, but I found comfort in food as a child, and got shuffled aside and given food to "shut me up".
fw
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 17:42:40
In reply to Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2006, at 23:10:16
I can really relate to the ‘wanting to be attractive/not wanting to be attractive’ thing. Maybe it’s just that I want to be attractive as I am. I’ve gained a huge amount of weight in the last few weeks, and I’m almost entirely certain that I’m trying to make myself unattractive to my therapist (not that he ever showed any signs of being attracted to me…).
On the other hand, I *do* want him to be attracted to me. And maybe I’m trying to make myself unattractive in the hope that however ugly I become he will still be attracted to me. But that’s bizarre because he doesn’t appear to be attracted to me.
I think part of the problem is that we are all adults and we know that people are either attracted or not attracted to other people. So I guess I want to know which it is: is my therapist attracted to me or not?
And I’m not sure I can feel safe unless I know the answer. Unfortunately, neither answer is safe. If he’s not attracted to me, then I feel more sure that he won’t exploit me, but at the cost of my sense of self-worth. If he is attracted to me, then I get to feel happy and special, but on the other hand people who are attracted to me have been known to hurt me. So he can’t win, and I can’t win.
And the worst part of it is that I know rationally that attractiveness is not an issue in sexual assault. And I also know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If he’s not attracted to me, it says nothing about me. Maybe I remind him of his sister, or whatever… If he’s not attracted to me it doesn’t mean I’m unattractive.
And I also know that attractiveness is more about confidence than about weight or symmetry. Confidence is much more attractive than slenderness or a dainty nose or slim ankles.
But knowing all that doesn’t seem to make it any easier. I think I want my therapist to be very attracted to me but at the same time entirely capable of keeping his hands to himself. I want him to want me so much that it’s an effort for him to resist me, but nevertheless an effort he’s capable of making. I want him to be just as attracted to me as I am to him, and to consider it just as much a sacrifice as I do that our relationship is professional rather than social.
Oh yeah, and I want *all* men to be attracted to me and at the same time to be entirely safe and capable of enjoying the attraction without pushing things too far. Is that too much to ask???
Posted by fairywings on June 5, 2006, at 21:15:40
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 17:42:40
> I’ve gained a huge amount of weight in the last few weeks, and I’m almost entirely certain that I’m trying to make myself unattractive to my therapist
Wow Tamar....how did you come to understand the weight gain had to do with trying to make yourself unattractive to your T? What precipitated the weight gain...was it the way things have been going with him lately. And, what will you do if you determine you've gone as far as you can go with him in therapy? Do you think if you quit you'd gain more, or lose what you've gained...do you think you'd be so sad about losing him, you'd gain, or lose? What do you think he'd he say if he read your post? How would you feel if he knew how you felt?
> So I guess I want to know which it is: is my therapist attracted to me or not?
Is your T married? If so, wonder what his wife looks like...if she resembles you in any way. You're right about the confidence thing....are you confident with your T, or do you appear to be? I never consciously thought about it, but I guess I'd really like to know if my T finds me attractive too....because I want to know if I'm beautiful to him. I'd just like to know he finds me "beautiful to gaze upon". But if I knew he wasn't it would crush me. I guess it's one of those questions that feels too loaded to talk about. You're right....there's just no winning that one.
> And I’m not sure I can feel safe unless I know the answer. Unfortunately, neither answer is safe. If he’s not attracted to me,What if he found you very beautiful and really looked forward to seeing and talking with you....would that be easier to deal with than a physical attraction? What if you had all the physical features he found attractive, but he was impecable about boundaries?
I have a friend who is everything I find attractive in a man, but I love him SO much I could never even think of being with him. He's a personal trainer.....trains belly dancers! ; ) I asked him if he was ever tempted. He said although he finds a lot of clients very attractive, he loves his wife and would never cross the boundaries of professionalism. I really respected him for that.
> Maybe I remind him of his sister, or whatever… If he’s not attracted to me it doesn’t mean I’m unattractive.Maybe you remind him of someone he loves or admires. I think I remind my T of his mother -- and not in a good way....bleh. He's older than I am, but I think my nervousness/anxiety is like his mother's.
Have you seen "Break Up" with Jennifer Aniston and Vince Vaughn? At the beginning of the movie it shows a lot of pictures of them together..... she is so beautiful because of her smile, confidence, and happiness....of course she's beautiful anyway, but....
>
>I want him to want me so much that it’s an effort for him to resist me, but nevertheless an effort he’s capable of making. and to consider it just as much a sacrifice as I do that our relationship is professional rather than social.I wonder if T's know this kind of stuff.... It sounds so painful. Does your husband remind you at all of your T in any way?
> Oh yeah, and I want *all* men to be attracted to me and at the same time to be entirely safe and capable of enjoying the attraction without pushing things too far. Is that too much to ask???
I'm with 10der on this one....appreciation of beauty...with a deep respect. I wish all women were seen by all men as beautiful in their own way.
fw
Posted by 10derHeart on June 5, 2006, at 22:24:43
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 17:42:40
> Oh yeah, and I want *all* men to be attracted to me and at the same time to be entirely safe and capable of enjoying the attraction without pushing things too far. Is that too much to ask???<<
You know what, Tamar, actually....it isn't. I think it's about appreciation of beauty and physical attractiveness, sexual arousal even, but *always* tempered with respect, kindness, self-control, care, consideration, decency, etc.
I believe that's how it was meant to be. From the beginning.
Posted by orchid on June 6, 2006, at 13:37:07
In reply to Re: Talking about Body Image in Therapy » Tamar, posted by 10derHeart on June 5, 2006, at 22:24:43
> > Oh yeah, and I want *all* men to be attracted to me and at the same time to be entirely safe and capable of enjoying the attraction without pushing things too far. Is that too much to ask???<<
>
> You know what, Tamar, actually....it isn't. I think it's about appreciation of beauty and physical attractiveness, sexual arousal even, but *always* tempered with respect, kindness, self-control, care, consideration, decency, etc.
>
> I believe that's how it was meant to be. From the beginning.
>
>This topic is interesting, and I would love to hear what everyone feels about looking/feeling attractive to their Ts, because it is something which I don't have an answer myself.
For me, I don't really like being attractive to *all men* - there are many men who I certainly don't want to look attractive to (those who I find repulsive), but then others to whom I am indifferent, and don't really care if they are attracted to me or not, then the other set who I find attractive, and who I would like if they found me attractive but not actually attracted to me, then the other set to whom I am really attracted to, who I want to be attracted to me back.
The problem comes when it is someone I am attracted to, but who I shouldn't be attracted to (according to good old ethics), and vice versa.
This is the end of the thread.
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