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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 57. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 19:03:00
In reply to I think you should give it more time. » happyflower, posted by orchid on December 12, 2005, at 20:56:09
> I think you really are not capable of all the emotional investment needed for a marriage to work at this state - with your mind full of your T.
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
Orchid, on second reading of this sentence, I think I'm going to have to ask you to please be supportive.
If you have any questions about this Please Be Supportive, or if you're interested in alternate ways of expressing yourself, please direct all followups to Administration. All followups should of course be civil themselves.
Dr. Bob is of course the final arbiter of all deputy decisions. And he may decide to reverse this decision.
If you're interested in reviewing the civility guidelines, they can be found at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 21:21:22
In reply to I think you think very negatively of me » orchid, posted by happyflower on December 13, 2005, at 10:33:20
Hi HF,
First I am sorry yet again to have offended you. I seem to have been doing that again and again to you. And I keep promising to myself that I won't do it again, but here I go - doing it yet again.
Actually I didn't think it was being unsupportive at all. I meant the whole thing in a very casual tone, not accusive at all. But it came across differently.
I don't think for one moment you are an airhead or something like that.
But it was my perception - seeing your posts on this board, that you are fully into your T right now and have been thinking of him quite a lot. So I thought this is not the right state of mind to come to a conclusion about your marriage. It was just IMHO kind of post and not judgemental. As you said, perhaps I am being way off base.
I didn't think you made the decision lightly too, I just thought perhaps you are making it when you are in a very emotional state of mind, and thought perhpas you should give more time for things to cool down before making a drastic decision about marriage.
But apart from that, as to what you said about my marriage, well, the thing is I am from a different country and a totally different culture. If I get a divorse, the chance of remarriage is extremely slim for me here. And I can't marry outside my country or race because of my own preference. I just wouldn't feel comfortable marrying someone outside my country. So I have to take that into consideration when I plan my actions about my marriage. Plus, there are things about my hsuband which are extremely nice. And I know he physically assaulted me, more than a few times. But he still is a nice person at heart. Maybe I wouldn't have taken it if I were originally from the Western world. But I have lots of other issues to consider, about my society and my family and friends here, and it is just not an easy decision to take about a divorce. If I get a divorce, it will not only affect me, but my parents, my relatives etc - everybody here. And I was the first girl from my family circle who did something totally different and married out of love, and went to the US etc. If my marriage fails, I not only affect my immediate family, but I will also end up being a bad excuse for many of my cousins who are planning to be free and independant - for their parents to prevent them from what they want to do. I feel responsible to many of my cousins (girls) and the society and since I was the first one to go out and change, I want to be a good example so people can follow.
You may not be able to fully picturize what I am talking about, but it is just perhaps very different.
So I think I was projecting that same kind of caution on to you as well. But as you said, you are in a different state - you don't have the same kind of restrictions and limitations that I have. So maybe it just does'nt apply to you. You are much more free to enjoy and explore and choose the life you want than I am. I should have taken that into consideration before airing my views.
But given all that, I am sorry again. And I think it might be best for you if I don't post to you anymore. I keep getting off base about your posts - partly because of my experience and my issues and as you said, my poor self esteem. And it has happened quite a few times.
It was good talking to you around here.
Take Care
-Orchid.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2005, at 10:43:29
In reply to Re: wow; big decision » Dinah, posted by happyflower on December 11, 2005, at 16:11:07
I think I have a bit of a clue what it feels like, though my divorce was years ago.
It doesn't matter how much you want this, or that it is your decision, just as it didn't matter much that it was my decision to get mine.
There is still a period of mourning for what could have been, for the hopes that you used to have. And no matter how hard you tried to keep things together there is an inevitable feeling of failure.
Take good care of yourself while this is going on. And - from experience - allow yourself the time to mourn.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 14, 2005, at 12:30:51
In reply to Re: my sympathies » happyflower, posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2005, at 10:43:29
was very distressing, at least to me. I have loved hearing about your growth as a person, and a woman, and would be very sad not to hear from you again. Everyone's marriage is different and complicated, and for you to make the decision you did took tremendous courage and strength- qualities you have obviously always had, but which really seemed to have grown, even a lot more, during the past year. I respect it completely. You are really the one- the only one- who knows what will be best for you. Your life has blossomed out so much in just a year; you are still young, and if separation and divorce seems right to you, I trust your decision. There will be a lot of joy and fulfillment ahead for you, despite the grieving you are doing now. Guys seem to really like you- and your husband may have huge, unaddressed problems with intimacy in marriage. How about keeping on posting? If you don't, I'm really going to miss you!
Posted by Tamar on December 14, 2005, at 17:37:55
In reply to Re: *****voce****please read, posted by happyflower on December 13, 2005, at 16:46:47
Happyflower, I’ve been struggling all day to find the right words. And I still don’t know if I’ve found them.
I want to speak so gently to you… I’m afraid that whatever I say might come across wrong. And the last thing I’d want to do is hurt you.
But I also don’t want to ignore you out of fear of hurting you, and maybe I can find some words that are adequate.
I’ve heard a lot of pain in your posts in the last few days. I’m sure that you’re having a very rough time at the moment. You need a lot of love right now and it’s hard to find. I wish I could find ways to be more supportive. But at the very least, here are some hugs: (((((Happyflower)))))
I hope you don’t go away for good. I really hope you come back, because beneath your anger there’s a lot of pain, and it’s always easier for us to respond to pain than anger. And also, I’d miss you. A lot.
Please look after yourself; I’ll be thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by annierose on December 14, 2005, at 18:35:44
In reply to What happened on this thread..., posted by Pfinstegg on December 14, 2005, at 12:30:51
Please know that we are all thinking of you. It's a crazy time of the year. You made a huge decision and I hope you feel supported by most of us here. I hope you are able to see your T sooner, rather than later.
When I saw my T 16 years ago, I quit mid-session. Just walked out and never spoke to her again (until 2 years ago). A month later my husband left me for another woman. I know that feeling of being left alone, with no support system in place. It's lonely. I did call another therapist. But it didn't feel the same, she wasn't "my" T. I know your situation is different. You are leaving your marriage because he doesn't want to move forward in the same direction as you. But it's still hard no matter what.
I hope you write back after your block. We'll miss you.
Posted by Voce on December 16, 2005, at 15:24:47
In reply to Re:(((Sad Flower)))), posted by annierose on December 14, 2005, at 18:35:44
If you are reading I want you to know:
Ally, I hope you respond to my e-mail soon. I really would like to continue communicating with you and I also really would like to get Happy Flower's e-mail address. I hope your silence towards me doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I still participate in Babble, while you expressed your desire to leave.
HappyFlower, I'm trying to get your e-mail address...
Voce.
Posted by terrics on December 18, 2005, at 23:27:42
In reply to Redirect to Administration, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 17:53:50
Just dropping in to visit although I am planning to return soon.
I hope every thing goes ok for you. Happy holidays.
terrics
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:31:22
In reply to Re: my sympathies » happyflower, posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2005, at 10:43:29
Thank you Auntie, I don't get to talk to ya much, but it sounds like you know exactly how hard it is. In a way losing someone you love is harder than losing love from a parent who never loved you in the first place. Thank you for your support. :)
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:33:14
In reply to What happened on this thread..., posted by Pfinstegg on December 14, 2005, at 12:30:51
Thank you for your understanding and support, it meant a lot to me. :)
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:35:43
In reply to HAPPYFLOWER » happyflower, posted by Tamar on December 14, 2005, at 17:37:55
Tamar, you are truely wonderful and I am so glad I got to know you through these boards. I always enjoy getting your feedback on my posts. You just seem to know the right things to say.((((((Tamar))))) I am so sorry you are stuggleing right now. I hope you will have some happiness this Christmas. :)
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:38:58
In reply to Re:(((Sad Flower)))), posted by annierose on December 14, 2005, at 18:35:44
Thanks Annie,
I did get in to see my T, in fact I have seen for 2 weeks in a row plus tomorrow too. He doesn't really want me on these boards anymore, but it is my decision. I am still thinking about it. I still want to support others,(people I have come to love here) but yet I am too scared anymore to post what is going on in my life lately. Thank you for your support, it means a lot.
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:40:51
In reply to To Allison and Happy Flower, posted by Voce on December 16, 2005, at 15:24:47
Hi Voce,
You were my rock that got me through this block. Thank you for reaching out to me, you are a gem! :)
Posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:42:21
In reply to Just saying hello Happy flower, posted by terrics on December 18, 2005, at 23:27:42
I am trying to be okay, I don't want to talk about it much. But I will be fine, I am a survior. Thanks for asking though.
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 21:38:33
In reply to Re:(((Sad Flower)))) » annierose, posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:38:58
I'm glad that your therapist was able to increase your sessions to help you through this rough time.
Posted by ClearSkies on December 21, 2005, at 7:48:39
In reply to Re: my sympathies » AuntieMel, posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:31:22
I did not get a chance to add to the original thread, but I know what a hard decision you have made with your marriage. I think that making that decision to end my 18 year marriage was one of the most empowering things I have yet done.
(((happyflower)))
Posted by fairywings on December 21, 2005, at 10:03:54
In reply to Welcome back happyflower, posted by ClearSkies on December 21, 2005, at 7:48:39
HI HF! Boy am I slow, or what? Sorry I didn't welcome you back sooner! I hope you're feeling better, I know this has been a really rough time for you.
FW
Posted by happyflower on December 21, 2005, at 11:20:43
In reply to Welcome back happyflower, posted by ClearSkies on December 21, 2005, at 7:48:39
Thanks clearskies! :) Where did ya find the courage? Did you have kids to think about?
Posted by happyflower on December 21, 2005, at 11:22:41
In reply to Re: Welcome back happyflower, posted by fairywings on December 21, 2005, at 10:03:54
Thanks :) Not better, but I am alive, right?LOL
I guess I have had too much cogentive therapy! Ha ha! get it? LOL
Posted by ClearSkies on December 21, 2005, at 14:56:53
In reply to Re: Welcome back happyflower » ClearSkies, posted by happyflower on December 21, 2005, at 11:20:43
No, we didn't have any kids. We did have two 17-year old cats, brothers, who we had taken with us to live in England. There was some dispute over their custody.
As for courage? At the time, it felt more like giving up. that I had tried and tried to make things better, and that I couldn't try anymore. If I stayed any longer, I would have perished as certainly as the Wicked Witch of the West had with a bucket of water. I felt as if I would dissolve if I didn't act.
I first opened my own bank account.
Then I saved up first and last month's rent.
Then I talked to a lawyer.
Then I told my ex that I was moving out.Then he told me that he couldn't afford to move out. So I lent him the money to do so. He paid me back.
Posted by fallsfall on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:41
In reply to Re: Welcome back happyflower » ClearSkies, posted by happyflower on December 21, 2005, at 11:20:43
Happyflower,
I left after 19 1/2 years of marriage. We have 3 kids - they were 10th, 8th, 5th grade at the time. It was very hard. My kids were very angry for a long time. But it was absolutely the right thing for me to have done.
I hope that things go smoothly for you.
Falls.
Posted by Tamar on December 22, 2005, at 20:15:33
In reply to Re: HAPPYFLOWER » Tamar, posted by happyflower on December 20, 2005, at 19:35:43
> Tamar, you are truely wonderful and I am so glad I got to know you through these boards. I always enjoy getting your feedback on my posts. You just seem to know the right things to say.((((((Tamar))))) I am so sorry you are stuggleing right now. I hope you will have some happiness this Christmas. :)
I'm glad to see you back, Happyflower.I hope you have a peaceful and loving Christmas!
Tamar
Posted by crazy teresa on December 26, 2005, at 16:07:40
In reply to For HappyFlower, posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 21:21:22
Not to stir the pot, but in hopes that a bigger picture will emerge for someone, somewhere.
POSTED BY ORCHID:
But apart from that, as to what you said about my marriage, well, the thing is I am from a different country and a totally different culture. If I get a divorse, the chance of remarriage is extremely slim for me here. And I can't marry outside my country or race because of my own preference. I just wouldn't feel comfortable marrying someone outside my country. So I have to take that into consideration when I plan my actions about my marriage.
QUESTIONS I HAVE:
1. When did which country you live in or what culture you were raised in determine whether or not it's ok to abuse others? This is not a cultural issue!2. Does having a husband make you a more valuable person? Why are you so afraid of being without one?
POSTED BY ORCHID:
Plus, there are things about my hsuband which are extremely nice. And I know he physically assaulted me, more than a few times. But he still is a nice person at heart. Maybe I wouldn't have taken it if I were originally from the Western world. But I have lots of other issues to consider, about my society and my family and friends here, and it is just not an easy decision to take about a divorce. If I get a divorce, it will not only affect me, but my parents, my relatives etc - everybody here. And I was the first girl from my family circle who did something totally different and married out of love, and went to the US etc. If my marriage fails, I not only affect my immediate family, but I will also end up being a bad excuse for many of my cousins who are planning to be free and independant - for their parents to prevent them from what they want to do.QUESTIONS I HAVE:
1. How does the western world figure into this? Again, this is not a cultural thing! People all around the world rationalize themselves into staying in abusive relationships. The pattern stays the same.2. So when considering the issues you mentioned, do you consider that you could actually be reinforcing the idea of remaining with an abuser by keeping quiet to your cousins, friends, and fellow countrywomen? By staying in this relationship aren't you still silently telling them it's ok to suffer abuse if you (not your parents) have chosen the man and you continue to remind yourself he has a good heart?
3. Maybe you married for love and saw the US, but how has this empowered you? The result is still the same as if you had accepted an arranged marriage and stayed in your home country, is it not? Your husband still has all the power in your marriage, which includes physically assulting you-- as you have stated.
4. How exactly is anyone ever free and independant while in an abusive relationship?
5. I encourage you to do something totally different: Live your life against abuse! You could teach these girls it's not ok to accept abuse under any circumstances! It would be so awesome for you to make the leap from using an internet site anonymously to speaking out publicly against abuse and live like you mean it!
6. Divorce effects parents, relatives, friends, co-workers, neighbors, children, businesses, societies, and is never an easy decision! Why do I feel as if you think divorce in the US is easy?
POSTED BY ORCHID:
I feel responsible to many of my cousins (girls) and the society and since I was the first one to go out and change, I want to be a good example so people can follow.
>
> You may not be able to fully picturize what I am talking about, but it is just perhaps very different.QUESTION I HAVE:
1. What exactly have you changed if you still have no freedom from an abusive marriage in your society?POSTED BY ORCHID:
So I think I was projecting that same kind of caution on to you as well. But as you said, you are in a different state - you don't have the same kind of restrictions and limitations that I have. So maybe it just does'nt apply to you. You are much more free to enjoy and explore and choose the life you want than I am. I should have taken that into consideration before airing my views.
>QUESTION I HAVE:
1. Who has placed the restrictions and limitations on you? In accepting these ideas of your culture, are you not placing them on yourself and eventually your children, thereby limiting the ablility to enjoy, explore, and choose the way lives are lived?Sincerely motivated,
crazy teresa
Posted by LegWarmers on December 26, 2005, at 20:16:33
In reply to I would like to address some statements by » orchid, posted by crazy teresa on December 26, 2005, at 16:07:40
>
>
> POSTED BY ORCHID:
> But apart from that, as to what you said about my marriage, well, the thing is I am from a different country and a totally different culture. If I get a divorse, the chance of remarriage is extremely slim for me here. And I can't marry outside my country or race because of my own preference. I just wouldn't feel comfortable marrying someone outside my country. So I have to take that into consideration when I plan my actions about my marriage.
>
>
>
>
> QUESTIONS I HAVE:
> 1. When did which country you live in or what culture you were raised in determine whether or not it's ok to abuse others? This is not a cultural issue!
>
> 2. Does having a husband make you a more valuable person? Why are you so afraid of being without one?Actually abuse is a cultural issue, in some parts of the world it is completely acceptable for a wife to be subserviant (sp) to her husband. I can't say I agree with this but it happens and when you are in *that* country/culture being much different and opposing things can cause major havoc.
I live in the western culture and having a spouse does indeed make me a more valuable person among the people I associate with. Its a shame, but its true, im sure not all over the us etc but it is definaelty a social thing.> QUESTIONS I HAVE:
> 1. How does the western world figure into this? Again, this is not a cultural thing! People all around the world rationalize themselves into staying in abusive relationships. The pattern stays the same.
>I apoligize Orchid if I am wrong but my understnading is that she moved to the US with her husband and in her culture that is a big deal?
>
> 4. How exactly is anyone ever free and independant while in an abusive relationship?
I think you have to be in that country/culture to understand fully what the consequences may be.> 6. Divorce effects parents, relatives, friends, co-workers, neighbors, children, businesses, societies, and is never an easy decision! Why do I feel as if you think divorce in the US is easy?
>I havent got that from orchid but divorce in the US is easier than many other countries. the US has the highests divorce statistics out there as well as remarriage rates. i believe in India women have a much harder time remarrying. In some countries you are shunned for getting a divorce, it doesnt matter what the reasons are, even if a man cheated, the women is seen as the bad one. She caused it, and she has dropped her chaces of marrying again significantly, and in some places an unmarried women is looked down upon.
> > You may not be able to fully picturize what I am talking about, but it is just perhaps very different.
>I think this is key!
>
>
>
> POSTED BY ORCHID:
> So I think I was projecting that same kind of caution on to you as well. But as you said, you are in a different state - you don't have the same kind of restrictions and limitations that I have. So maybe it just does'nt apply to you. You are much more free to enjoy and explore and choose the life you want than I am. I should have taken that into consideration before airing my views.I think we all should think like this, there are people here from all over the world, in a sense we should all take that into consideration when we post. Even people who in the same state have very differnet views. Sometimes I read things here that feel like direct attacks at me, I know they are not! But we dont all have the same views, beliefs, luxuries, or freedoms, we just dont.
>
> QUESTION I HAVE:
> 1. Who has placed the restrictions and limitations on you? In accepting these ideas of your culture, are you not placing them on yourself and eventually your children, thereby limiting the ablility to enjoy, explore, and choose the way lives are lived?
>
>
>
> Sincerely motivated,
> crazy teresa
And I too mean this in a kind thoughtful way, I just felt I needed to voice my opinion. In certain cultures things are very differnet from the US, many things just wouldnt fly over seas. in reality people have to adapt as well as they can to the situations they are in, by fighting it a person can sometimes put them selves in a more unpleasant situation than they were before.
Now just to clear this up in case it sounds like Im supporting abuse...Im in no way supporting this, what I am saying is that not all cultures are as open and accepting of certain traditions and commonalities that people from the US are. And if Orchid is in an abusive realtionship I think she should leave, but it sounds to me that this was worked out?? I hope so because no one deserves to be in this situation....EVER.
Posted by orchid on December 26, 2005, at 20:59:37
In reply to I would like to address some statements by » orchid, posted by crazy teresa on December 26, 2005, at 16:07:40
Hi Crazy T.
I do appreciate your view points. But here are my thoughts.
Like it or not, the truth of the matter is that it is a cultural issue. In my country, lot of men do beat their wives - atleast slap. And most wives do take it. I am not saying I am supporting abuse. But getting a divorce is not also a realistic option many times around here. Most women don't have financial freedom, and the society will not support them if they get a divorce. They will be looked down upon, and around here, a woman cannot jsut live independantly in an apartment. The culture just won't permit it. You will be abused by more men if you are living alone, than if you are staying in a marriage.
But the spirit of what I was trying to say is, that right now, I don't feel it necessary to leave my marriage. I am not saying all indian women should tolerate abuse or that everybody should tolerate abuse. But I do think each situation needs to be analyzed according to its own merits and demerits, and one rule fits all probably doesn't apply here.
And besides I get really scared of sleeping alone at night. I get terrified. Who will comfort me when I am all alone? And all my friends are married. Who will I hang out with? And even if I hang out with someone, who would really care about me when I am sick or ill or am afraid or feel lonely? For instance, I have rheumatoid arthritis, and many days, the pain is unbearable at night. Somedays I am not even able to walk. My husband carries me to the bathroom, applies pain balm, comforts me, makes me sleep on his lap etc. I have been alone with my pain before, where I couldn't even eat or brush or comb my teeth before. Well, none of my friends really came and stayed with me to help me out. I hope you get the point. It is not only a cultural issue, but also due to my physical and psychological limitations.
I am not saying having a husband makes me more valuable, but I do think, both men and women become complete when they have each other. It is just a fact of life, and while I do agree that you shouldn't stay in a abusive marriage, I also think one shouldn't leave a marriage easily wihtout giving it all the efforts possible.
It is true people rationalize themselves into staying in an abusive marriage by inventing all possible excuses. But the statistics say that divorce is much more common in the US than it is in India. And people do have much more freedom to leave their spouses than they are in India. And people from other culture have to take that into account before they plan their actions.
Regarding staying an an example to my cousins etc, and my family, well that is only a secondary consideration. If I ever think my marriage's disadvantages outweighs the advantages significantly, I would leave. Most likely. But right now, the advantages are just so very much higher than the disadvantages.
Besides, I do believe in my husband's inherent good will. IF I didn't believe in that, I wouldn't be staying with him. I do believe he is a nice person at heart, and with patience and teaching him the right ways, he will change. If I think he will continue to abuse me, I will leave. But I do not think so. HE actively tries to learn, and change and grow. I do judge him fairly with an open mind. He has grown up so much in the past few months, and he continues to change for the better. So I am hoping that with patience, it will really work out very well.
If that fact changes any day, and if I see he is becoming more abusive, I will leave. I do have the capacity to have a good job, I have saved quite a bit of money in my own bank account. And I have the necessary status to go back to the US if I need to. So I have taken as much precaution as possible.
But I don't think it will ever come to that state.
This is the end of the thread.
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