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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 3:26:55
At least it seems like it *should* be easy. I'm thinking of sending my former (seeing that word brings tears) T a Christmas card and it feels like the HUGE thing.
I know I don't post much so my "story" isn't very familiar, but about a year ago the T I was seeing dumped me because I would not take AD's. She said she was still "here" (sure, whatever) and if I ever found myself in a different place (whatever that means) I could come back.
I've been trying to write her, asking to come back, since the summer and I just haven't been able to. Nothing I put down on paper seems right. And I worry about her response - and the fact that I might not get one at all - and how it might feel. Whether I could handle being rejected again. Thus, the Christmas card. It's innocuous (not to me in this situation, but in most cases) and something from which one doesn't expect a response. I guess I'm wanting to see how it feels to make contact (on a small scale) and get nothing back. If it feels too miserable, then the letter is a no-go. Is that completely dumb? If feels so childish to me.
I don't know what it is that feels so absolutely big about putting something in the mail to her. If my tears now are any indication, I will sit in my car and have a good cry after I do it - if I do it.
If I could wake up just ONE morning and not have this be the first thing on my mind, feeling the pain as if it only happened the day before, I think I could learn to be content with never contacting her again and not going back. But time has brought me no healing. I so wish it would.
Posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 4:55:15
In reply to Seemingly simple things which are so very hard..., posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 3:26:55
I can understand your pain.
But I think the fault and the shame lies with your T and not with you. It is her fault because she made you feel so bad about being able to contact her and to send a christmas card.
I think an ethical therapist would leave the client with a good feeling about the therapist and the therapy, and the confidence that a child will have about her/his own parents.
But many therapists fail to do that, apparently sometimes knowingly so, and it makes it extremely hard for the client to move past it.
But it is not your fault. IT definitely isn't. What is happening is very much expected, and it is a shame on your therapist that she didn't leave you in a better state of mind.
Posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 5:27:47
In reply to Seemingly simple things which are so very hard..., posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 3:26:55
Actually i think I didn't understand you correctly.
I understand that she is open to seeing you if you changed your mind about AD?
Posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 11:42:53
In reply to Re: Seemingly simple things which are so very hard..., posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 5:27:47
> Actually i think I didn't understand you correctly.
>
> I understand that she is open to seeing you if you changed your mind about AD?To be completely honest, I'm not really sure. She just said, "if you ever find yourself in a different place." I don't really know what that means. It could mean if I change my mind about AD's, I guess. But couldn't it also mean if I'm not so depressed anymore and better able to do the work? Because as far as that goes, I am light years beyond where I was a year ago. I was barely functional then. But now I'm back to travelling more, which is something I loved but had stopped doing. And I've started my own business and it's been successful and is getting me out of the house more. I'm certainly NOT the same person I was back then.
Basically, I don't know what she meant. It's probably a gripe I DO have with her style. Sometimes she'd talk around things instead of dealing with them head-on and it left me feeling confused about her expectations. For instance, this whole termination fiasco happened over 2 phone conversations. First she said I couldn't come back unless I was willing to start doing some things that made me uncomfortable. Well, I thought that meant things other than medication. Afterall, she'd been encouraging me to get involved in life more. I was at a point where I rarely got out of bed and didn't shower unless I had an appointment. So, I took a few weeks and started trying to pull myself out of the pit. I got out of bed everyday, properly tended to my grooming, and started reconnecting with my friends. And then I called her to tell her about the changes - but she still said no. And at that point even I had to press her to get her to say exactly what she wanted. All in all, I guess I'm concerned that she really just wanted to get rid me - period. And maybe the reason I find all the letter business so hard is because I'm afraid to confirm that. But I don't know any other way to go about finding some peace.
Posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 12:30:13
In reply to Seemingly simple things which are so very hard..., posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 3:26:55
Dear Jammerlich,
I'm new here, so I don't know all of your story, but it sounds like things ended badly and without resolution. The main thing I hear in your post is pain and unresolved grief and the fact that it is still so raw after almost a year speaks volumes. And, I understand how it can still be so fresh....my first therapist and I had to terminate due to her moving and although we did everything "right" it was incredibly hard because I wasn't finished and the timing wasn't on my terms. I tried to convince myself that I was done with therapy, but ended up going back to it with another therapist. Anyway, I say that only because I can't imagine the pain that would come with being "dumped" by a therapist.
All of that being said, I'm not sure what the best route is to take. Have you considered starting therapy with another therapist? I don't think that a Christmas card is a bad idea, but I also kind of believe in shooting straight, so if you're looking to go back into therapy with her, I'd probably tend to call her office to make an appointment or e-mail her or write to her. I understand that the Christmas card could be a kind of "testing the waters", but if she doesn't respond, you still don't really know what that means. It could mean she thinks you were simply sending a card. It could mean she'd be open to continuing therapy, but wants you to directly ask for that. Or it could mean that she's clueless and not the right therapist for you :)
In any case, I'm sorry you're in so much pain over this.....the things that bring us into therapy are painful enough without the added pains of conflict with our therapist.
Anneke
Posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 13:23:32
In reply to Re: Seemingly simple things which are so very hard... » jammerlich, posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 12:30:13
>>>>> All of that being said, I'm not sure what the best route is to take. Have you considered starting therapy with another therapist?<<<<<I have considered it, but I don't see it happening. Therapy, that is something I want. The relationship and strong feelings, I didn't bargain for those and frankly, I find them uncomfortable and outright distasteful. I don't know how to keep those out of therapy and until I do, I'm not willing to risk developing them with/for a person who can't be there for me in a real and consistent way. Just can't deal with that again. And like I said before, if I felt them getting better, I wouldn't care about going back.
>>>>>I don't think that a Christmas card is a bad idea, but I also kind of believe in shooting straight, so if you're looking to go back into therapy with her, I'd probably tend to call her office to make an appointment or e-mail her or write to her. I understand that the Christmas card could be a kind of "testing the waters", but if she doesn't respond, you still don't really know what that means. It could mean she thinks you were simply sending a card. It could mean she'd be open to continuing therapy, but wants you to directly ask for that. Or it could mean that she's clueless and not the right therapist for you :)
<<<<< I'm such a clumsy writer, I'm sure I didn't make myself clear before. I don't expect her to see anything in the card other than a card. And I don't expect any kind of response. It's just a sort of gauge for *me,* to see how I feel about not hearing back. Maybe it's a dumb idea, I don't know. I don't think what I'm doing is not shooting straight. I don't expect her to get the card and think, "I need to call Jammer and see if she'd like to come back." If I can ever make the decision whether going back is the right thing, I fully intend to write (my tongue would be paralyzed if I tried to call) and flat-out ask for that.
Thanks for responding, Anneke. I'm glad you found us. I like you already! (I hope it's ok to say that)
Posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 15:57:17
In reply to Re: Seemingly simple things which are so very hard... » Anneke, posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 13:23:32
Jammerlich,
You are NOT a clumsy writer! I re-read your post and can see that I misunderstood....I was definitely thinking more of what I would be looking for if I sent a card! (I'd be checking my mailbox, phone messages, etc obsessively!) But, seeing as you want to feel what it's like to send the card, then I say go for it...it's not a dumb idea at all. Of course, saying that is easy...I know how these "simple" things can be hard. But, at least you're thinking about thinking about how it would feel and that's gotta be worth something, right??? :)
And yes, it's more than ok to say you like me already...who wouldn't want to hear that??? I like you too...and hope you can find some way back to your therapist. I'll look forward to more of your posts...I'm glad I found my way here too. Anneke
Posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 18:37:14
In reply to Re: Seemingly simple things which are so very hard... » jammerlich, posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 15:57:17
I had to sign it and run it straight to the post office for fear I'd change my mind. Of course there was the dilemma of HOW to sign it. Everything from 'Warmly' to 'Bite Me' came to mind because all of those feelings are stirring around inside me. I opted for name only - first and last. In case she doesn't remember who I am.
Posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 19:06:12
In reply to I just got home from sending it, posted by jammerlich on December 13, 2005, at 18:37:14
Good for you....I have to say I laughed out loud when I read "Everything from 'Warmly' to 'Bite Me' came to mind"...Now I'm going to be cracking up when I sign my Christmas cards. Makes me want to send a couple to people who I'd like to write "bite me" on!!!
But, seriously, I think it's great that you did it. How do you feel? (If you want to share...)
Posted by jammerlich on December 14, 2005, at 0:44:09
In reply to Re: I just got home from sending it » jammerlich, posted by Anneke on December 13, 2005, at 19:06:12
I'm glad you laughed. I laughed a little too when I wrote it. Sometimes it helps to step back and see the humor in something, if only for a brief moment.
Is it strange that I feel a little bit of everything at the moment? I feel ashamed - I hid what I was doing from my husband. We signed all the other cards together and before I left for the Post Office, I snuck off to another room to sign and address hers. He just doesn't understand all these feelings. I've been good about stopping the crying in front of him. I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm over it.
I feel a little bit excited because I know she'll pretty much be forced to give me at least a moment of thought when she gets it. But along with that comes some apprehension that she might not be able to place who I am (even though I saw her for nearly a year). And I feel like I'm sharing a little bit of myself with her because I made the cards myself this year - but of course she won't know that. That sharing feeling is a little bit unsettling and I don't know why.
For the sake of honesty, I'll admit there is also a little part of me that hopes seeing my name causes a little bit of discomfort to shoot through her. It wouldn't bother me a bit if she were a little unsettled too. I hope the day all this happened was a hard one for her and that the card makes her remember that - and that me and my pain did not disappear just because she doesn't see me anymore.
But who knows what she'll think. She may just think it's a sort of olive branch - a way for me to let her know I don't hate her. And it is, really - all of the above and then some. Seems like a lot for a little 4x5 card to live up to, don't you think?
Posted by Anneke on December 14, 2005, at 11:15:53
In reply to Re: I just got home from sending it » Anneke, posted by jammerlich on December 14, 2005, at 0:44:09
I don't think all of those feelings are strange at all and you should be proud of yourself for identifying them all.
And, I know what you mean about your husband thinking you're "over it". One day a few months after I terminated with my first therapist, I was crying about missing her and confided such in my husband and he said, "well at least you're not still thinking about her every day." Um, no, it was more like every hour! And, in general, my husband is a great guy, but I don't think I would have understood the feelings unless I had been through them myself. They are so intense.
Could the sharing feeling be unsettling because you feel like you're already opening yourself back up to her?
And, I'm right there with you hoping that it causes her a bit of discomfort too. (said with a little sense of defiance of always have been the "good girl")
I loved your line about it being a lot for a little 4x5 card to live up to....but it's a lot more than that...it's a part of yourself and that's a big gift to give anyone.
Anneke
Posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:54
In reply to Re: I just got home from sending it » jammerlich, posted by Anneke on December 14, 2005, at 11:15:53
I'm so sorry, but I just had to yell that. I can't believe she called. I really can't. I did not expect that at all. Lots of tears right now. Not sure if it's sadness or joy. A little bit of both, I'm sure.
We've been out of town - literally walked in the door about 30 minutes ago and there was a message from her - she called Friday afternoon. I'm partly sad I missed her, but it's probably for the best. This wasn't in the realm of possibility as far as I was concerned, so I would have been completely unprepared and most likely would have come across badly.
She thanked me for thinking of her. Said she'd been thinking of me as well, wondering how I am (not sure if I believe that, but it was nice of her to say)and that it was good to have a touch point of sorts. She wished me a happy holiday and told me to take good care.
Gosh, I hope you guys read this because I really would like to know what you think. How would you feel about it? Do you think it's typical that a T would call in this situation? Could it mean that a door might be open there? Or do you think it was more likely common courtesy?
Posted by Anneke on December 20, 2005, at 10:12:40
In reply to SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!!, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:54
Wow...how are you feeling now? I think there is definitely a door open...she didn't "have" to call you. If you want to start up therapy with her again, I think this is a signal that she's open to doing so. And, I think it means that she cares about you and how you are doing.
Just my opinion, of course....I'll be interested in hearing what other people think.
Hope you were out of town having fun!
Posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 13:18:03
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » jammerlich, posted by Anneke on December 20, 2005, at 10:12:40
>>>> Wow...how are you feeling now? I think there is definitely a door open...she didn't "have" to call you. If you want to start up therapy with her again, I think this is a signal that she's open to doing so. And, I think it means that she cares about you and how you are doing.
<<<<< I'm feeling really unsure about things. Of course I've listened to the message several times and it's hard to make sense of it. The words were really nice and the fact that she even called was really nice. But then there's the voice - the tone is what I would call her business-like one. Not the kind and caring one I loved so much.
But, she DID call. And like you said, she didn't "have" to. I don't call the people who send me Christmas cards - even if I haven't seen them in a long time. And these are people I would have at some point called my friends. But I am not her friend. I'm not her anything, really. And she still called. I'm inclined to think that if a T really didn't want any further contact with a client, he or she would ignore something like this, so as not to encourage anything further. But that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.
She really blew my plan out of the water didn't she? She responded when I was trying to see what it would feel like when she didn't. Overall, I guess I'd say this has left me with even more unanswered questions. And I'm not entirely sure whether that's a good thing or a bad one.
>>>>> Just my opinion, of course....I'll be interested in hearing what other people think.
<<<<< I'm interested too, but I'm afraid this thread is so old it'll be lost up here. I thought about starting a new one, but I didn't want to feel like a board hog.
>>>>> Hope you were out of town having fun!
<<<<<I was actually! We went to Chicago and got a lot of our Christmas shopping done. It isn't cold where I live so it helped give me a jolt of Christmas spirit.
Posted by pegasus on December 20, 2005, at 13:34:41
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!!, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 13:18:03
Oh, wow, cool! I would say this is very non-typical T behavior. I think it shows that she's open to working with you again for real, if you want to. I think in this situation it would have been so easy to not reply. I agree with you that I never would have expected a reply of any sort to an Xmas card without even a personal message.
I also think that if she's a good T, she probably realizes that a fair bit of thought went into the sending of that card. And that it is (or could well be) a testing of the waters of sorts. If so, then to reply would definitely be intentionally sending you a specific message: she's still there for you.
peg
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 16:28:55
In reply to SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!!, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:54
As I understand it, the termination was conditional based on your choices differing from the choices she thought you should make? Maybe she sees this as an opening of the door from your side. Of your possibly being willing to make the changes she expects you to make?
Although my short term memory is shot, and I may be completely confused about your story.
Maybe she meant that she was happy to hear from you, that she'd been wondering how you were doing, and that she was glad you'd touched base with her.
I just hate for you to get your hopes too high.
Unless I'm totally confused, in which case, never mind.
Posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 17:33:54
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!!, posted by pegasus on December 20, 2005, at 13:34:41
>>>>>>I agree with you that I never would have expected a reply of any sort to an Xmas card without even a personal message.
>>>>>> I also think that if she's a good T, she probably realizes that a fair bit of thought went into the sending of that card. And that it is (or could well be) a testing of the waters of sorts. If so, then to reply would definitely be intentionally sending you a specific message: she's still there for you.How do you know if they're good? I mean *really* HOW do you know? When things were going well and I'd report what went on in my sessions, people told me they thought she was good. But after she dropped me, people thought she wasn't good. Is it possible to make what seems like a huge mistake like that and still be good overall?
Posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 17:53:06
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » jammerlich, posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 16:28:55
>>>> As I understand it, the termination was conditional based on your choices differing from the choices she thought you should make? Maybe she sees this as an opening of the door from your side. Of your possibly being willing to make the changes she expects you to make?
<<<<< It very well could be. At the time, she wanted me on AD's and I wouldn't do it. She also said I was too ambivalent about therapy. She said if I ever found myself in a different place, I could come back. Well, this place is definitely a different one from where I was a year ago. Would it be ok for her to assume, without seeing me, that I still need them and therefore refuse me? Obviously, she can. But do you think a T would do that?
>>>>> Maybe she meant that she was happy to hear from you, that she'd been wondering how you were doing, and that she was glad you'd touched base with her.<<<<< Maybe she did, but I really hope not b/c it just feels cruel to me. And I guess it seems like making the call for that reason would be putting her own needs into the equation - or am I missing something here? I probably am.
>>>>> I just hate for you to get your hopes too high.
<<<<< I don't want them too high either. In my experience, it's nearly always best to keep them low. Very, very low. Much less chance of being hurt or disappointed that way. Any ideas how (or even whether) I can proceed with this and still protect my heart? It already feels sort of bruised, battered and just generally pathetic.
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 18:12:33
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 17:53:06
I think therapists are sometimes just human. And that they don't always have a master plan in mind when responding. I think the most helpful moments for me with my therapist were when he was just being human. And the most painful moments for me with my therapist were when he was just being human.
There's no way of knowing what, if anything, she meant by calling without asking her. And asking with low expectations seems safer to me.
But that's me. I like to impose low expectations on myself because my natural inclination is for very very high expectations.
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 21:35:51
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » jammerlich, posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 18:12:33
I hope that wasn't terribly depressing. I'm rather depressed right now, and that's probably coloring my viewpoint.
Posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 21:46:50
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!!, posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 21:35:51
> I hope that wasn't terribly depressing. I'm rather depressed right now, and that's probably coloring my viewpoint.
I guess I didn't really think of it so much as depressing as I thought of it as realistic. And so many times reality doesn't exactly make a pretty picture. Then again, this all started because this woman insisted I be on AD's - so what the heck do I know?
I'm sorry you're feeling depressed. You've been through so much and it... well, it just sucks.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2005, at 21:58:36
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 21:46:50
Thanks Jammerlich.
Reality does really suck sometimes.
It's probably worth giving her a call, and seeing if either or both of you have had a change of heart. And I think it was a very nice thing for her to have called. She didn't need to at all.
Posted by pegasus on December 21, 2005, at 9:06:43
In reply to Re: SHE ACTUALLY CALLED!!!!!! » pegasus, posted by jammerlich on December 20, 2005, at 17:33:54
Yeah, good questions. I guess that's the big trick to all of this. I don't think we can know if they're good, except by experiencing enough therapy with them to get a feel for it. How do you feel about it?
I agree that her dumping you for not going on meds seems like a big mistake. I really wonder what was behind that (her issues? some theory about effective therapy techniques?). I've spent a lot of time refusing meds with therapists who were advocating giving them a try. And it was always entirely my choice in the end, although they would bring up issues that I needed to think through about it.
I would think that if you did go back to working with her, you'd have to hash that one out first thing. Or else, if I were in your place, I'd always be wondering about what the next deal breaker would be that would make her dump me again.
good luck
Peg
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