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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by 10derHeart on December 4, 2005, at 15:38:46
In reply to I totally second Daisy. (nm) » daisym, posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 7:00:38
Posted by 10derHeart on December 4, 2005, at 15:51:06
In reply to Re: The reason I am asking is because.... » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 12:55:21
....maybe the gym thing, and even specifically the recent "wink," could be good ways to get the topic going, if/when you decide to talk about it.
Like you could ask him, "Is it weird to see clients outside the office, like at the gym? I'll tell you what it feels like for me, if you tell me what's it's like for you...."
...or something better....more in the happyflower style of speaking...;-)
Perhaps that'll lead right into a good chance to say something like, "Because I've been wondering about when you winked at me the other day - you never do that here {does he?} - but there you did, and I don't really get what it meant...."
just some ideas.....not that you asked for any :-)
Posted by Tamar on December 4, 2005, at 18:18:46
In reply to What gg said, and I'm thinking....., posted by 10derHeart on December 4, 2005, at 15:51:06
> ....maybe the gym thing, and even specifically the recent "wink," could be good ways to get the topic going, if/when you decide to talk about it.
>
> Like you could ask him, "Is it weird to see clients outside the office, like at the gym? I'll tell you what it feels like for me, if you tell me what's it's like for you...."
>
> ...or something better....more in the happyflower style of speaking...;-)
>
> Perhaps that'll lead right into a good chance to say something like, "Because I've been wondering about when you winked at me the other day - you never do that here {does he?} - but there you did, and I don't really get what it meant...."
>
> just some ideas.....not that you asked for any :-)Those sound like really good ways to start the discussion! Yay 10der!
Happyflower, I agree that the only way you can know what's going on inside his head is to ask. I'd say that whether he was your therapist or your colleague or your best friend's brother's wife's uncle.
I think the wink could be a good way into the discussion. If someone I was attracted to winked at me, I’d definitely find a way to mention it!
Posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:09:57
In reply to What gg said, and I'm thinking....., posted by 10derHeart on December 4, 2005, at 15:51:06
Thanks Tender,
Those are some good ideas! He has never winked at me before so that is why I was taken off guard.
So what should I say, Hey you winked at me, does that me you think I am hot stuff? LOLOr is it an invitation for something fun? LOL
Or did a bug fly in your eye? LOL
Posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:17:11
In reply to Re: What gg said, and I'm thinking..... » 10derHeart, posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:09:57
I think this is the first "definate" sign of him flirting with me with not other explainable reason for the action. It can't be taken any other way, it isn't my imagination, I am not over reading his actions. He did it and it must mean he at least likes me. But why did he do it? I know the only way is to ask him, but it is fun to talk to you all about it. LOL
Posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:19:35
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting, posted by daisym on December 3, 2005, at 23:50:34
I am happy you responded, I needed to know what you all think, whether I like it or not. I do agree with everything you said. It does need to be talked about soon. Thanks!
Posted by sleepygirl on December 4, 2005, at 19:51:10
In reply to therapist outside of office setting, posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 21:04:46
hey sweetheart,
I gotta say I agree very much with what the other posters have said. I really like 10derheart's suggestions. This sounds confusing to me so I wonder how confusing it must be to you. I don't think you can really work on things in therapy with this hanging in the air, and how hard must it be to talk about things you need to talk about if you're really concerned about HIS feelings to the exclusion of your own? I think it may feel really scary to bring this stuff up, but I feel it is very necessary as well. Now you KNOW we'll all be here ;-)
all the best,
sleepygirl
Posted by fallsfall on December 4, 2005, at 22:24:47
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting » daisym, posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:19:35
You have also mentioned that it is like having an elephant in the room with you. Maybe that is a different way to start the conversation. And you could hide behind the elephant while you talk about it!!! Good luck, Happyflower.
Posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 23:44:56
In reply to This is insane!, posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:17:11
Winking at a current client is highly irresponsible thing for a T to do.
IMHO, it will hurt you immensely in the long term. He is being seductive and promising you something which he most likely won't be able to deliver. And even if he delivers it will be at huge cost to you, your husband, your kids, his wife, his kids.
What he is doing is very highly inappropriate and extremely irresponsible and not very ethical for a T to do it. I wouldn't trust myself with such a person - not even for therapy, let alone for marriage or an affair.
I am sorry I am sounding a little harsg and most likely I will get a pbc for this, but nevertheless, I felt it is worth it to warn you as to the nature of your T's actions.
If you were his ex patient, it would be acceptable. But not when you are a current patient. Being seductive is really really bad for a therapist to do to his client.
Posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 23:48:51
In reply to Actually I think he is being very irresponsible » happyflower, posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 23:44:56
Actually, even if he had admitted to you he is attracted to you in an open and honest manner, it would have been completely acceptable. Then, perhaps both of you could have worked together towards working out a workable plan. I would have respected that kind of openness 100 times more.
But winking at you is really a bad sign of his professional integrity.
Posted by fallsfall on December 5, 2005, at 7:44:32
In reply to This is insane!, posted by happyflower on December 4, 2005, at 19:17:11
I can see times when a wink is used instead of a wave. Just to say "Hi, I see you there". A wink is much more subtle and doesn't interrupt the flow of events the way a wave or "hello" would. Winks are considered seductive (in my opinion) because they are associated with secrecy (maybe because they can be so subtle). But in a sense your relationship with your therapist IS a secret (or is at least confidential). Your therapist has a responsibility to keep confidential the fact that you are a client. At the gym, there are people who know him and know what he does for a living. If he were to be social with you at the gym (which I understand he is sometimes), that could be considered a break in that confidentiality. In that case, I think that a wink would allow him to acknowledge you without telling the whole world "Hey, I know this person!! Wanna guess how I know her?"
I think there are a lot of possible interpretations. And I learned in therapy that it is best just to ask and find out what the person really means.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 8:50:33
In reply to Re: This is insane! » happyflower, posted by fallsfall on December 5, 2005, at 7:44:32
Yeah, everything you say is correct, but he already waved and smiled at me earlier that morning as he was jogging around the track. The wink was after he was done jogging and he walked in front of my machine to check his heart rate, then he winked at me. (he did go out of his way to get there, lol)
I saw him today too, he waved and smiled as usual and later said good morning later when we were both on the track, no wink this time. LOLWe talked about seeing each other at the gym the session after we ran into each other. He said he always lets the client make the first move in saying hello or anything outside of the office. We have an understanding that I don't mind him talking to me in public anywhere and if he sees me and wants to say, HI, he can without me doing so first.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 8:53:30
In reply to Actually I think he is being very irresponsible » happyflower, posted by orchid on December 4, 2005, at 23:44:56
Orchid,
I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your comments. I am glad you are being honest with your comments. Thanks. :)
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 5, 2005, at 9:38:46
In reply to therapist outside of office setting, posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 21:04:46
Hi Happy Flower,
Just curious. You mentioned the same thing happened with your allergist. Has this also happened with other doctors? Or other people in general? As far as the flirting, etc.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 11:06:18
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting, posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 5, 2005, at 9:38:46
> Hi Happy Flower,
>
> Just curious. You mentioned the same thing happened with your allergist. Has this also happened with other doctors? Or other people in general? As far as the flirting, etc.Nope, before therapy, I was mostly didn't notice if someone was flirting with me. I was less open. My allergist has always flirted gently (like my T does now) but when my allergist saw me outside the office, he really turned up the heat, even in front of my DH. I was a little uncomfortable with it because I thought he was going too far. My T hasn't done anything I am uncomfortable with, but then again I am attracted to him, but not to my allergist, even though he is good looking.
I do admit since therapy, I am more open to everyone that I encounter. And yes I do flirt back too but I am friendly to men and women. But I don't "start" the flirting.I think my T even got a little jeolous of me talking to this other guy at the gym because my T was trying to get my attention because there was this band we both like playing on the radio and he couldn't get my attention because I was talking to this other guy.
I helped my T get a CD of this group that was very hard to get in the US. My T told me in the next session that he thought it was quite a coincedence that that song was playing while we were both their at the gym.
I think both of these guys "started" flirting with me first, and I flirt back a little. Seems harmless to me, it is fun, it feels great for my ego. I even told my T I am enjoying men noticing me, especailly since my DH is rejecting me making me feel like an ugly slug.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:07:32
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting » happyflower, posted by sleepygirl on December 4, 2005, at 19:51:10
Hi sleepy!
My attraction began the first day of therapy and I feel we have done really good work together. Even though we play around a little, he still is a T when I need him to be.
When I am talking about my issues I am not that concerned with how it is effecting him, it is his job, and I am paying him to be my T . Sometimes I feel a little gulity if I am too hard on him or difficult, but from what others have said, it is common to feel that way.
I do agree that our mutual attraction needs to be discussed, and I plan to when I am ready. I have still managed to work well with him in spite of it all. Maybe it has allowed me to even trust him more because I do feel close to him. The first thing in therapy I needed to do was learn to trust him before I could open up to him. I am still benifitting from therapy, if I wasn't I would have quit a long time ago, in spite of what I feel for him.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:26:50
In reply to Re: What gg said, and I'm thinking....., posted by Tamar on December 4, 2005, at 18:18:46
Hi Tamar!
You are right the way I will know is to ask. I know he is VERY honest with me, but I wonder HOW honest he would be if I asked if he was attracted to me. I think he might say that he was, why deny it when he KNOWS I would see right through him if he lied to me about it. But I would except him to do the "proper" thing a T should do and tell the client that it can't go anywhere. At least that is what I am expecting, because he does have a very fine repretation in the community.But I still feel he has more than the average feelings for me than most clients, and I was just wondering if he was stuggling with that himself. You know he just turned 50 this year, and he did tell me he went thought a mid life crises. Maybe he finds my attraction satisfing his big ego. LOL Half his clients are kids, so it probably doesn't happen too often a good looking babe like me has the hots for him. LOL
But even though I would love to have my way with him, I think I am expecting in the end, it will not happen, and he will still remain ethicical even though he might want to have hot sex with me. But I do think if he gave me the green light, I wouldn't be able to resist because I like him so much and I have never been so attracted to any guy this much. It's insane! So the flirting might all be fantazy material, but it is fun to talk and think about at least with you all, if it could happen. :)
Posted by LittleGirlLost on December 5, 2005, at 14:34:13
In reply to therapist outside of office setting, posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 21:04:46
> Do you think that since I see my T at the gym, it has changed the dynamics of therapy for him and me? It is changing our theraputic relationship to something more personal?
Let me preface this by saying that I do know you see your T at the gym, but I haven't been able to read and keep up with all the posts, so this is JMO. Yes, I do think it has (or at least has the potential to) change the dynamics of therapy.
Personally, I am terrified of running into my T in public, and I never really understood why. I think I'm starting to. For ME, just seeing her outside of the office would change something for me. I would certainly never be able to work out at the gym with her, but I also have a huge fear of running into her ANYWHERE; even some place as innocent as the mall. Hmmm maybe it's time to revisit this with her.
lgl
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:40:22
In reply to Re: The reason I am asking is because.... » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 12:55:21
Thanks Gardengirl,
I know in order to really know, I need to ask, but do you think he will REALLY will be totally truthful.
Like suppose you become attracted to a client of yours, and they share that they are attracted to you also. Have you received any T training on how to deal with this?
I know there is a lot of literature on client erotic transference, but very little is written on erotic counter-transference. Even though according to the Pope studies, many T's do become attracted to their clients sometimes during their carreers. And we all now there are many unethical therapists who do cross the line in therapy and become sexually involved with their clients. I am sure many T's said it wouldn't happen to them, but I bet sometimes they are caught off guard a little after all you can't control who you are attracted to.
Posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:51:36
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting » happyflower, posted by LittleGirlLost on December 5, 2005, at 14:34:13
Thanks for commenting Little Lost Girl.
I know it changed for me, but what answers I am trying to get answered is has it changed HIM in respects to doing therapy with me?It did freak me out when I first saw him there. But I didn't know he worked out there or anywhere for that matter. Well he saw me doing a timed walking test (my first day) and he jogged right past me and looked right at me. I almost stumbled over! I said outloud, OMG!! He thought that was funny later when we talked about in my next session. We did talk about if it was okay for each of us. He said it isn't like we are sharing lockers right next to each other, he said, now that would make him uncomforable.
But I do admit, when I am still exercising, I can't help thinking about him taking a shower and getting ready for work. I know how naughty of me. I just wonder if he thinks of me while he is getting all soapy all over thinking of me working out! LOL boy, I think i am turning read! It is getting too hot in here! LOL
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 15:19:18
In reply to Re: The reason I am asking is because.... » gardenergirl, posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:40:22
> Thanks Gardengirl,
>
> I know in order to really know, I need to ask, but do you think he will REALLY will be totally truthful.I know he should be, but I don't know if he WILL be. And the tough part is, how will you know whether to believe him or not, if you worry about whether he's being honest or not? There's so much fodder here to talk about. I suspect it's not going to be just a one session topic, if you go into what the concept means to you as far as wishes, fantasies, fears, needs, etc. and what his potential responses mean in the same regard.
At least, I know that's how my T would handle it. I almost never get his reaction, because we get so caught up in whatever I've been worrying his reaction is. :) I have to remember to directly ask him again after all that is done.
> Like suppose you become attracted to a client of yours, and they share that they are attracted to you also. Have you received any T training on how to deal with this?
We did get some work on this, and even role-played it in class. My own particular weakness is that I often don't take enough time to explore the issue as I described above before I answer the question.
And I have been attracted to a client once before. It did not come up in therapy, and I don't know how he felt towards me. But I do know that it felt as if there was an element of flirtation under the surface, so I tried to be very conscious of boundaries with him. He had a tendency to push the smaller ones, such as length of session and such.
> I know there is a lot of literature on client erotic transference, but very little is written on erotic counter-transference. Even though according to the Pope studies, many T's do become attracted to their clients sometimes during their carreers. And we all now there are many unethical therapists who do cross the line in therapy and become sexually involved with their clients. I am sure many T's said it wouldn't happen to them, but I bet sometimes they are caught off guard a little after all you can't control who you are attracted to.
You're absolutely right, you cannot predict or control who you feel attraction for. It's a feeling just like any other. It's what you do with it that's the important part. One can feel something or fantasize about something without acting on it. A good T would also reflect on what it means for the therapy if they feel attracted to the client. What's going on that this feeling surfaced at that time, and what should be done about it? It's definitely not something to just wing your way through.
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 5, 2005, at 17:09:01
In reply to Tamar (long post) » Tamar, posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:26:50
Hi Happyflower
> You are right the way I will know is to ask. I know he is VERY honest with me, but I wonder HOW honest he would be if I asked if he was attracted to me. I think he might say that he was, why deny it when he KNOWS I would see right through him if he lied to me about it. But I would except him to do the "proper" thing a T should do and tell the client that it can't go anywhere. At least that is what I am expecting, because he does have a very fine repretation in the community.
Yeah, I think you are probably right. If it comes to a choice between his libido and his job he’s probably going to pick the safe option. I guess one of the questions I’d ask you is how you feel about enjoying the flirtation knowing that it won’t go anywhere. For me, that would be quite a relief in some ways. It’s sometimes really nice to know for sure that someone likes me and that I can enjoy liking them without worrying about the possible consequences if things went too far. But that’s just my perspective.
> But I still feel he has more than the average feelings for me than most clients, and I was just wondering if he was stuggling with that himself. You know he just turned 50 this year, and he did tell me he went thought a mid life crises. Maybe he finds my attraction satisfing his big ego. LOL Half his clients are kids, so it probably doesn't happen too often a good looking babe like me has the hots for him. LOL
Yeah, I can imagine! I do think that having a mutual attraction can bring something quite special to therapy. It’s an opportunity to explore feelings that don’t normally come under the spotlight.
> But even though I would love to have my way with him, I think I am expecting in the end, it will not happen, and he will still remain ethicical even though he might want to have hot sex with me. But I do think if he gave me the green light, I wouldn't be able to resist because I like him so much and I have never been so attracted to any guy this much. It's insane! So the flirting might all be fantazy material, but it is fun to talk and think about at least with you all, if it could happen. :)
I think it’s important to enjoy it. I know I’ve wasted many hours in agony over the idea that my therapist was simply not attracted to me because I’m too fat, ugly, old, stupid… and so on. In one way it was pointless because it was simply reinforcing my negative view of myself. But it was interesting to see how deeply-held those negative ideas were. At first I really did think my feelings were a bit immoral and I tried to crush them for a while. But that just made me feel worse about myself.
It can be quite revealing to discover where the feelings lead! I discovered I was able to challenge my negative feelings more easily when I allowed myself to think about my therapist in a playful way, as if we could really have been lovers. I’m sure that playing with the idea and enjoying it is a good thing. Life is short; what’s the point of feeling desire and not enjoying it?
Tamar
Posted by LittleGirlLost on December 5, 2005, at 20:08:56
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting » LittleGirlLost, posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:51:36
>> But I do admit, when I am still exercising, I can't help thinking about him taking a shower and getting ready for work. I know how naughty of me. I just wonder if he thinks of me while he is getting all soapy all over thinking of me working out! LOL boy, I think i am turning read! It is getting too hot in here! LOL
LOL I think I am turning red just READING it!! :)
I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but I do wish you the best.
Posted by allisonross on December 6, 2005, at 5:01:47
In reply to Tamar (long post) » Tamar, posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:26:50
> Hey, Happyflower:
That's funny you said if he gave you the "green light." My t asked me "If I were to give you the green light, would you go for it?"
He told me he didn't think I would. I think I would. I mean 2 years of (fantastic work and therapy), but ALSO flirting and discussing both....of our feelings.(foreplay)...geez....He said that "my colleagues would tell me to run fast and far, but I will never abandon you."
Seeing what is going on, I know he should.
Smiles, Ally
. Hi Tamar!
> You are right the way I will know is to ask. I know he is VERY honest with me, but I wonder HOW honest he would be if I asked if he was attracted to me. I think he might say that he was, why deny it when he KNOWS I would see right through him if he lied to me about it. But I would except him to do the "proper" thing a T should do and tell the client that it can't go anywhere. At least that is what I am expecting, because he does have a very fine repretation in the community.
>
> But I still feel he has more than the average feelings for me than most clients, and I was just wondering if he was stuggling with that himself. You know he just turned 50 this year, and he did tell me he went thought a mid life crises. Maybe he finds my attraction satisfing his big ego. LOL Half his clients are kids, so it probably doesn't happen too often a good looking babe like me has the hots for him. LOL
>
> But even though I would love to have my way with him, I think I am expecting in the end, it will not happen, and he will still remain ethicical even though he might want to have hot sex with me. But I do think if he gave me the green light, I wouldn't be able to resist because I like him so much and I have never been so attracted to any guy this much. It's insane! So the flirting might all be fantazy material, but it is fun to talk and think about at least with you all, if it could happen. :)
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2005, at 15:51:48
In reply to Re: therapist outside of office setting » LittleGirlLost, posted by happyflower on December 5, 2005, at 14:51:36
This is the end of the thread.
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