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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:57:59
I think I have an idea where to look.
Before Daddy died, I was thinking that it was time to cut back on therapy. That I was growing in such a way that I didn't need my therapist in the same way. Not quitting, but growing the way a child grows and separates from their parent.
And I was upset about the loss that it would entail. I think I had a pretty good handle on what the loss was.
The conversation came up again today, and it was frustrating in the extreme, because I couldn't verbalize the feelings of loss. I said I was sad, he said to talk about the sadness, and I didn't know what on earth he was talking about. I used the metaphor or whatever of my son who is now too old to want to sit on my lap to read his night-time stories, and who doesn't care if I kiss him goodnight or not. It's growth, but he loses that nurturing feeling of being on mommy's lap. That feeling that you never ever ever get back until you go into therapy. :) (Of course, Mommy misses it a lot too, with the added disadvantage of not growing in order to lose it.) And it's hard for me to see what this particular growth has as its advantage. I don't want to get off my therapist's lap, not even if I don't need to sit there anymore.
To me that *is* explanation, but he wanted more. And I'm at a loss. Moreover, I'm a bit angry, because if he doesn't understand what it is I'm losing, maybe I'm not really losing anything at all, because I never really had anything. :(
Posted by cricket on July 5, 2005, at 15:39:23
In reply to I need to find an old thread., posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:57:59
Dinah,
This is good for me to think about too because as you know I've been thinking that it is time for me to cut back on therapy.
So what do I feel like I would lose?
Someone (perhaps not the only person) who thinks more of me than I think of myself.
Someone (the only person) who knows the way my mind works.
Someone (the only person) who knows I've had a really rough life and have done the best I can with what I've been handed.
Someone (the only person) who knows a little bit about what went on in my childhood.
Someone (certainly not the only person) who has the same religious beliefs I do and someone (the only person right now) I talk to about these same beliefs.
Someone (the only person) that I cry in front of, even though I don't feel comfortable doing that.
Someone (the only person) that I consistently dream about.
Someone (the only person except my son) who would like to see me happier because he cares.
Is this any of the loss you are feeling? In some ways though this list is all intellectual and what you are describing is perhaps more visceral. Is it the emotional holding that you sometimes talk about?
And I do think he knows what you are losing. Perhaps he's just playing good parent. You don't say to a child that wants to break away a little bit, "Oh but honey, it's mean horrible world out there. No one will ever understand you and take care of you like I do." You say, "It's okay. Go ahead. I'm here if you need me." Could that be why he is playing dumb? He doesn't want you to lose faith in those wings before you even try them out.
Posted by Tamar on July 5, 2005, at 16:13:11
In reply to I need to find an old thread., posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:57:59
> I think I have an idea where to look.
>
> Before Daddy died, I was thinking that it was time to cut back on therapy. That I was growing in such a way that I didn't need my therapist in the same way. Not quitting, but growing the way a child grows and separates from their parent.
>
> And I was upset about the loss that it would entail. I think I had a pretty good handle on what the loss was.
>
> The conversation came up again today, and it was frustrating in the extreme, because I couldn't verbalize the feelings of loss. I said I was sad, he said to talk about the sadness, and I didn't know what on earth he was talking about. I used the metaphor or whatever of my son who is now too old to want to sit on my lap to read his night-time stories, and who doesn't care if I kiss him goodnight or not. It's growth, but he loses that nurturing feeling of being on mommy's lap. That feeling that you never ever ever get back until you go into therapy. :) (Of course, Mommy misses it a lot too, with the added disadvantage of not growing in order to lose it.) And it's hard for me to see what this particular growth has as its advantage. I don't want to get off my therapist's lap, not even if I don't need to sit there anymore.I can understand that your therapist might be curious because in your metaphor it almost seems as if you’re identifying with *both* the parent and the child. I wonder if children actually go through feelings of loss when they grow up… it seems to me that not needing that feeling of sitting on mummy’s lap is rarely associated with feelings of loss unless it’s the mummy who decides it’s time for the child to grow up a bit.
If your daddy started pushing you off his lap when he felt you were too old to sit there any more (e.g. at puberty) then I can well imagine you might have experienced feelings of loss at the same time as feeling you were growing up.
From what you say, it sounds to me as if you’re thinking about cutting back on therapy because you feel you ought to be grown up, not because you feel you are actually grown up.
Or perhaps it’s that you feel you don’t know quite how to move to the next stage. If you want to stop sitting in your therapist/mommy’s lap (metaphorically speaking), what alternative comfort can you find? Kids often move from looking for physical comfort to looking for verbal comfort. How do you do that in therapy, when the sense of physical comfort is established by using words rather than touch? It’s a difficult question.
> To me that *is* explanation, but he wanted more. And I'm at a loss. Moreover, I'm a bit angry, because if he doesn't understand what it is I'm losing, maybe I'm not really losing anything at all, because I never really had anything. :(
Well, perhaps you have a sense of psychological holding. Are you worried you might lose that sense of being held if you become more separate from your therapist? Maybe it’s not his failure to understand that’s at issue, but rather it’s the difficulty of determining whether you really are ready to move off his metaphorical lap? Kids seem to do it gradually, without much discussion. It’s difficult to have to explain it.
((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 18:48:03
In reply to Re: I need to find an old thread., posted by cricket on July 5, 2005, at 15:39:23
I am sure that is it, at least in part. He doesn't want to discourage me from growing.
But I also think he really did want me to tell him more about it, and I just didn't know that there was any more to say. And maybe I wanted him to say it was sad, and that I wasn't growing up at all. There was something else going on, and we'd figure it out together.
I don't want to grow up.
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 18:56:20
In reply to Re: I need to find an old thread., posted by Tamar on July 5, 2005, at 16:13:11
I dunno. I think growing up is something that happens to me totally against my will. :)
I'm trying to remember back to that time, and I can't really. Daddy tossed me off my lap when I started getting older. My therapist says that's a good thing. It didn't feel good. I think Mother and I started fighting and I didn't want to get anywhere near her, so there was no natural progression.
I think I remember that I came to the conclusion that I need to need him. That not needing him was scary in and of itself. And that the fact that if I really need him less, it won't bother me that I need him less didn't really hold true. *Needing* itself provides something valuable to me. Something I don't want to lose. The fact that I might no longer get that much satisfaction from what I used to need isn't nearly as important as the loss that comes from not needing it. It doesn't lead me to say "Ok, I don't really need it anymore." Instead it leads me to be terrified at the loss of the need.
I guess it doesn't make much sense. :(
I've really come to understand lately that my therapist really isn't all that insightful. And he has a lot of limitations as a therapist. I guess not understanding this is another of those limitations.
I'm trying to take into account that he's got a lot of stress in his life right now with a sick family member. But instead I keep thinking how totally lame he is.
Now if that isn't an adolescent phase of development type of statement, I don't know what is.
Sigh. I hated adolescence.
Posted by cricket on July 6, 2005, at 12:50:09
In reply to Re: I need to find an old thread. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 18:56:20
> I think I remember that I came to the conclusion that I need to need him. That not needing him was scary in and of itself. And that the fact that if I really need him less, it won't bother me that I need him less didn't really hold true. *Needing* itself provides something valuable to me. Something I don't want to lose. The fact that I might no longer get that much satisfaction from what I used to need isn't nearly as important as the loss that comes from not needing it. It doesn't lead me to say "Ok, I don't really need it anymore." Instead it leads me to be terrified at the loss of the need.
>
Well, I think the above is very insightful on your part. You need to need. When I think about that I must say, even though you think of it as a childlike feeling, it seems very evolved to me. Needing provides us with human connection, the most precious thing. In Buddhism you actually need others to become enlightened.Not needing is masculine, lone ranger, pioneer, a good deal of the folklore of this country, right? So by needing you're bucking a whole lot of what we're conditioned to want.
I don't know. I'm just thinking aloud really. But something tells me that what you may be seeing as a deficiency or a flaw (are you seeing it that way?) is only because this is a dysfunctional society.
I am so terrified to need that it is hard for me emotionally to fathom what you are feeling. But intellectually I believe that you have your finger on something really important.
The above paragraph you wrote was so clear to me that I would bring that in to him. See what he says. Maybe he will have some insight this time.
Posted by gabbii on July 8, 2005, at 19:35:51
In reply to Re: I need to find an old thread. » Dinah, posted by cricket on July 6, 2005, at 12:50:09
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040828/msgs/385644.html
Posted by daisym on July 8, 2005, at 20:49:04
In reply to I need to find an old thread., posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:57:59
Are you OK? I know things are hard. You can IM me if you need to. I'm way better with everyone else's problem than my own. :)
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by 10derHeart on July 8, 2005, at 22:12:09
In reply to You seem to have gone missing? » Dinah, posted by daisym on July 8, 2005, at 20:49:04
....and here's the link
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050630/msgs/524627.html
mostly just very busy, I think...:-)
(you *sound* SO much better, Daisy!)
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2005, at 20:35:29
In reply to Is this it Dinah?, posted by gabbii on July 8, 2005, at 19:35:51
Thanks for that, Gabbi.
I think I'll sit down and read what I figured out, if anything.
My therapist made me smile when we talked about it this week. At first he was all rational. He looked at my tearstreaked face and told me that I didn't look like someone who didn't need their therapist. Then he told me I could need him *differently*, that there was still plenty to work on (which was wonderfully insulting, don't you think?). But he finally got my point. He said that it didn't mean he was less powerful that I could get through crises without calling him or scheduling extra sessions. It meant he was so powerful that he didn't even need to be there, that I could carry enough of him with me that he could work from a distance. And that it didn't mean that I needed him less.
I know it sounds unusual for him to say that, but it was just what I needed. I felt so warm and understood. :)
Posted by gabbii on July 12, 2005, at 18:54:09
In reply to You're a genius » gabbii, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2005, at 20:35:29
I wish.. I just have an almost freakishly good memory, especially considering I never lurk on this board, just occasionally glance at it.
I'm just able to remember posts and who posted above and below at just about any given time.
So finding it was pretty easy.
I wouldn't do it for just anyone you know : )
Posted by gabbii on July 13, 2005, at 17:41:35
In reply to You're a genius » gabbii, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2005, at 20:35:29
Look!
Now the truth about you is on three boards.
I wonder how I can get this subject line over to Alternative
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:49:01
In reply to Re: You're a genius » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 13, 2005, at 17:41:35
I really am impressed by your ability to remember things. I swear that sometimes I bring up old (and not so old) posts, and the only reason I know I wrote them is that I'm aware that I've never had problems with anyone else posting under my name.
If I can't even remember my own, I'm extra impressed that you can remember others'.
It should read that Gabbi is a genius on all boards. And a delightful soul who never fails to bring a smile to my lips. Even when I'm feeling very un-smiley.
Posted by gabbii on July 13, 2005, at 21:28:34
In reply to Snort! » gabbii, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:49:01
.
>
> It should read that Gabbi is a genius on all boards. And a delightful soul who never fails to bring a smile to my lips. Even when I'm feeling very un-smiley.You have no idea how happy that makes me Dinah
sometimes I look around here and see all the terrific people and I'm awestruck
It's pretty amazing to think that someone thinks something special about *me*
Posted by All Done on July 15, 2005, at 1:44:19
In reply to Gabbi is Queen of all the boards » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 13, 2005, at 21:28:34
> It's pretty amazing to think that someone thinks something special about *me*
>I find it pretty interesting that you are amazed. I don't know of anything that isn't special about you, gabbi.
:-)
Dinah - sorry to post here and run, but I think there's a Dinah is brilliant thread over on Social that I must get to right away. :-)
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 16:53:38
In reply to Re: Gabbi is Queen » gabbii, posted by All Done on July 15, 2005, at 1:44:19
> > It's pretty amazing to think that someone thinks something special about *me*
> >
>
> I find it pretty interesting that you are amazed. I don't know of anything that isn't special about you, gabbi.I'm amazed that you're amazed too, Gabbi. I thought you knew that most everyone thinks most everything is special about you.
Although it never hurts to tell someone again every once in a while. :)
You have an amazing memory, Gabbi.
A truly kind heart.
A way of knowing just the right thing to say, and just as important, just what not to say too.
You are as funny and enchanting as any Babbler in the world. Which especially impresses me because I find humor difficult sometimes. :)
You are extraordinary in so many ways, Gabbi.
Posted by gabbii on July 15, 2005, at 23:06:29
In reply to Re: Gabbi is Queen, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 16:53:38
I now understand why Sally Field made that rambly speech that no one will let her forget.
Hearing that from you two?
Its just overwhelming. Thank you Thank you Thank you
Posted by crushedout on July 16, 2005, at 16:01:17
In reply to Gosh » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 15, 2005, at 23:06:29
that was the cutest speech ever. sally field's that is. yours, too. :0)
This is the end of the thread.
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