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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:36
Hi ShortE,
Hope you are getting on ok with the withdrawal.
I was hoping you might answer a question for me. I have been doing a lot of searching about myself lately, and have confronted some of the more unpleasant parts of my character.
I recall in one of your posts that you said you are / might be borderline. Do you mean Borderline Personality disorder? If you do I am hoping you can help! If I've got the wrong end of the stick however, then please just smile sweetly and giggle at me under your breath... :D
I have been feeling so much better lately, but there have been some residual 'odds and ends' that didn't seem to fit the profile of bog-standard depression. It bugs me that they were still hanging around as I feel they have the potential to open up a big hole again. They are the bits of my personality that attract to me the label of 'weirdo' on more occasions than I would wish.
Whilst online I found the diagnosis criteria for borderline personality disorder, and 7 of the criteria fit me. When I looked into some of the message boards out there such as the msn one, I was suddenly hit with a wave of "my god, this is me!". I actually found this to be a happy experience.
Some elements, such as self-harm, are not so applicable (apart from one time a few years ago), but the rest was like flicking on a light switch, that moment when I thought wow, this is the reason for it all. Ive looked into DBT (Dialectical Behavioural Therapy - scuse any spelling errors), and it seems that I am already doing most of what it consists of, what with all the CBT, meditation and "How to" type books that amazon have sent me over the years!
I would however love to undertake some DBT group work, as I am a huge fan of skills development. I was wondering if you have done any group DBT therapy and what your experiences with the illness have been, if that is not too personal?
All the best
Ross
Posted by Shortelise on July 11, 2005, at 12:01:41
In reply to Post to ShortE re borderline personality disorder, posted by rabble_rouser on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:36
RR, I will be happy to answer these question. First, I have to read up on DBT as the therapy I have been for the last seven years has not been defined. It could be "toilet training your puppy" for all I know. :-)
I just looked at a page on DBT and all of the explanations about BPD made me feel unequal to reading about it right now. So, give me a day or two, when I've had my coffee, maybe had breakfast and dug in my garden for a while, I might feel differently.
Nope, I won't do this unless it feels ok. I'm not someone who has trouble saying no.
But specifically, by name, with pointed finger, I have not done DBT. However, it could very well be a large part of what my T and I have been doing. Stay tuned.
I do have to mention that as far as weirdness goes, there's not one of us on planet earth who isn't seriously weird sometimes. It's part of being human, as I guess you know, and part that I sometimes actually like. Yes, I talk to myself, talk to trees and flowers when I go for walks. I sometimes say inappropriate things to people, most often nice things, but also when someone is rude I often have to tell them so.
Weird, yup, me too.
It's really hard for me not to hate myself sometimes. All of those unpleasant things can loom larger than the nice things, those things I like about myself. That in itself is a symptom, isn't it.
But this is a question you could address to this board in general and you'll surely get some replies.
ShortE
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 11, 2005, at 13:59:37
In reply to Re: Post to ShortE re borderline personality disorder » rabble_rouser, posted by Shortelise on July 11, 2005, at 12:01:41
Thank you ShortE, your honesty is appreciated. I hope your plants enjoy the attention too.
Thanks for your comments too! I am the king of inappropriate sometimes, and having someone say 'you are SO weird' to me is wearing off now, as the people that say it turn out to be weird too. Perhaps they are more scared by what they see of themselves in my behaviour? Oooh philosophical.
One question, and I may open this to the board - as you have begun to heal, have you found that some older relationships seem to stop working? I had one period in the past where I made an amazing recovery (bar on eor two key points). I felt really happy, and yet somehow some of my older friends became hostile towards me. Do some people somehow thrive on others weaknesses? Is it possible that some people liked me because my suffering made them feel better about themselves? When you get stronger, do you suddenly see the reality of certain relationships?
I would like to just say "well in that case they are not true friends" but it just somehow doesn't ring true. Equally, when my new-found happiness faded, I lost the new friends I had made as the fizz went out of me. I have done a lot to overcome the 'approval seeking' side of myself, and have made great strides.
But it still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Are all relationships really based on the Whats In It For Me principle? Relationships and friendships, I have to admit, are a big 'work in progress' for me - ive never really understood the mechanics of them. (anyone got a manual?) :S
Your thoughts appreciated.
Blue skies
Ross
Posted by pinkeye on July 11, 2005, at 14:09:53
In reply to Re: Post to ShortE re borderline personality disorder, posted by rabble_rouser on July 11, 2005, at 13:59:37
What you have observed is true.. But not so much as "What is in it for me".. But more to do with one's own pace in the journey of life.
For instance, when you are depressed and not so joyful, you are more likely to travel in the slower lanes of traffic in life - so to speak.. We don't want to do too many things, or go to movies or eat out, or read, or enjoy things in general.. We don't work well, not that optimistic etc. And we generally want to lead a dull and slow life.. want to be idle many times, sit and think about things, ruminate, cry even, worry more etc.. Those come with a depressive attitude. And typically life becomes slower..
When you are happy, and cheerful, you want to do all the things which you would not do when you are depressed.. go here and there, party, have fun, watch movies, talk to friends, socialize all the time, go to games etc.. So your pace in life is fast..
We tend to associate with people who lead their lives at nearly the same rate as us. Like, if we are driving at 40 miles per hour, then we stick to the right lanes.. but if we drive at 80 miler per hour, driving in the right lane is boring and slow.. and you tend to stick to the left lanes.. Taht is what happens in life. When you are depressed, you tend to take the slow lane in life, and you need to be with other people who are slow as well.. When we are cheerful, we tend to go towards the fast lane and you will leave people out in the slow lanes and move on..
In an ideal situation, your speed and your friend's speed will be constant, so you will always be with the same group. But that doesn't happen in real world. And it is even more pronounced for people like me who tend to shift gears all the time from slow to fast and back to slow and back to fast.. My friend has a real tough time sometimes with me.. But I explain to her what I am going throguh and ask her to leave me alone when I am in the slow lanes.. When I rebound, I always pick it up again with her, so we have managed to be friends for nearly 12 years even with my mood swings.
Posted by Shortelise on July 11, 2005, at 16:26:42
In reply to Re: Post to ShortE re borderline personality disorder, posted by rabble_rouser on July 11, 2005, at 13:59:37
It has been my experience that when I change either my relationships change with me, or they just end. Nothing dramatic, like doors slamming. Just petering off of the relationship. Same as when my friends change.
Say you're someone who talks a lot about how you are feeling because you are going through hard emotional stuff, and we meet on that plain, and we have lots to talk about, I love giving you advice, you make me feel important because I am "helping" you. But then, lo, you are over the hump, you feel better, you don't need to talk about emotional stuff because you aren't going through it so much anymore. So where do I fit in? Maybe I feel you don't need me anymore and I toddle off to find someone who is a mess.
What we BPD people have to be very careful of is to make sure we don't always see people as doing things to us, that we see our part in the world around us, that we don't blame others all the time. Easier said than done.
ShortE
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 12, 2005, at 6:01:24
In reply to Re: Post to ShortE re borderline personality disorder » rabble_rouser, posted by Shortelise on July 11, 2005, at 16:26:42
Hi Guys,
thank you for your thoughts - made me feel a lot better. It is good to hear, Pinkeye, that you have such a good understanding friend. I tend to hide the darker side of myself from people, until it leaks out of its own accord.
The idea of feeling that people doing things 'to' me certainly rings true. I don't know if this is a male thing, but I often find myself defending my pride over small things, like how some bit of machinery works or some political fact, but yet I feel like its some battle for status that must be won. I have been trying to use meditation to help me to see how things really are, and some of my CBT / REBT exercises to put this internal 'status struggle' in its place.
Often if a friend or colleague makes a mocking comment to me, even if it is only intended as fun, inside I really burn up like it was intended to hurt me or bring me down a peg. I can sometimes rationalise it, but in that moment the anger peaks and I feel this urge to defend, to have some witty 'come back', which is never easy when you're already wound up. I know this all sounds really petty, but its something that regularly burns me up and has been a source of great depression for me, especially as I can understand that its difficult to have sympathy for someone that seems arrogant or can't take a joke. Ive tried talking to my mother but she says its 'just male pride', and I wonder if other men experience the same feelings, but have better coping mechanisms, eg humour or blocking the anger. I never really tackled this with my therapist.
Can I ask, do women expect men to be naturally emotionally strong? Do they ever feel disdain for a man that exhibits weakness, like lack of emotional control, blowing up etc? What gives the appearance of 'being a man'? Humour? Body language? Even-handedness? I have a very dry sense of humour which can come off rude - this gets me into trouble quite often too `:(
Despite often having less than high views of myself, I am often told by some that I am overconfident or even arrogant. Then the approval addiction kicks in and I feel hurt. I think I go out trying to get status and respect, put people's noses out of joint and then feel hurt when they act negatively. So I go out to try to get more! What a dumb circle to get stuck in ... :(
Again, any thoughts appreciated.
Posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 13:17:07
In reply to Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye, posted by rabble_rouser on July 12, 2005, at 6:01:24
>>>Can I ask, do women expect men to be naturally emotionally strong? Do they ever feel disdain for a man that exhibits weakness, like lack of emotional control, blowing up etc? What gives the appearance of 'being a man'? Humour? Body language? Even-handedness? I have a very dry sense of humour which can come off rude - this gets me into trouble quite often too `:(
I would say no. Atleast I don't. In fact almost all my male friends have cried to me at sometime or the other.. and I don't think less of them. My husband cries quite a bit too - maybe not as often as I, but he has cried atleast maybe 20 - 30 times in these past four years.. And I don't think less of him for that. My father has recently cried several several times.
When I was a kid and young adult, I used to like guys who are arrogant, not emotional at all, angry, defensive and proud.. I used to think these qualities are very manly. But once I became 20, these things didn't matter to me much. I was more attracted to people who are sensitive, emotional, and vulnerable themselves.
But these was this friend of mine, who used to cry all the time, and used to whine like a girl, and used to get hurt too much by women all the time, was extremely emotional and somehow I didn't like him.. I didn't quite think of him as a man.. Even for a woman, he would have been probably considered to be a whiny, and too emotional. So maybe if you are all the time crying, and being too vulnerable and not strong, maybe women won't like you..
But vulnerability combined with strength is what is very attractive.
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 12, 2005, at 14:25:00
In reply to Re: Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye » rabble_rouser, posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 13:17:07
Thankyou pinkeye, that was incredibly honest of you. I find the issue of the ways the genders look at each other an amazing subject. I am very into mentors and I search for 'models' of behaviour all the time. I am aware that I am 'missing' certain behaviours / skills that others have, and this formed part of my leaning towards thoughts I may be BPD.
I wasn't specifically thinking of what females find attractive, rather what your views of Masculinity in general are - though in reality I suppose the two are in many ways inextricably linked. For myself, I can say that my father remained at a distance when I was young, and have been raised by my mother from a female's point of view (I wouldnt expect anything else). That is not a blame, I love my mother very much, but it is just fact. Whilst I am sad that my dad could not / chose not to have that input, I am making a change now.I can well understand your reaction to the guy you mention last in your post. In the distant past I have reacted in this way to life and felt disgusted with myself afterwards, and also sensed similar disgust from females who knew me (men just seem to look the other way). At the time it seemed like a perfectly valid way to behave - it is only afterwards that I would question it - its something that just doesnt seem 'right' for a man. Thankfully these are behaviours I have moved on from.
I agree that a genuine expression of grief is healthy though, and in fact I always find bits in movies where older, respected men cry to be the most moving. I dont know if you have seen a british film called 'regeneration' about the 1st world war. At the end the army psychiatrist reads a poem by Wilfred Owen. The psychiatrist had just successfully treated Owen for shell shock, and cleared him fit for duty. As he learns that the poem he is holding was written by Owen as he lay dying a death he had effectively sent him to, he begins shake with tears. Had me in floods.
Saving Private Ryan does the same damn thing :D
As I take on board more elements of masculinity, by studying those male figures I respect (war leaders, great speakers, people I respect at work) I suppose it is predictable that I may sometimes swing like a pendulum too far the other way and come off arrogant. I guess I can just put those down to experience, huh?
I'm rambling a little, but finding it very therapeutic. Thank you for your input!
Ross
Posted by Shortelise on July 12, 2005, at 14:52:49
In reply to Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye, posted by rabble_rouser on July 12, 2005, at 6:01:24
I think I expected men to be strong when I was very young. I began to understnad that I am the person with whom my partner can be whoever he is, and can feel his feelings with. If he needs to cry, it's ok.When we have probelms is when each of us needs the other to be strong at the same time. Otherwise, I try to be strong for him when he needs it and he is strong for me when I need.
I'm sure there are as many dynamics as there are couples, but I do believe that there are women like me, others like me, who accept men as they are.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 16:12:33
In reply to Re: Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye, posted by rabble_rouser on July 12, 2005, at 14:25:00
It is interesting to me to read a man's view of his emotions.. Never had much chance to do that!!
You will get replies from plenty of posters here who are very perceptive.. I am sure it will help you grow to be a good man.
I haven't seen Regeneration, but I have seen "Saving Private Ryan" and I loved it very much.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2005, at 22:28:38
In reply to Re: Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye » rabble_rouser, posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 16:12:33
> I haven't seen Regeneration, but I have seen "Saving Private Ryan" and I loved it very much.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 15, 2005, at 7:43:07
In reply to Re: Re Borderline replies, ShortE and Pinkeye, posted by Shortelise on July 12, 2005, at 14:52:49
Hi ShortE,
Once again ShortE, thank you for your honest comments.
I wanted to post and say that I have bought myself a book (to add to the other 416) on BPD. It starts off with a warning that sufferers will find that it really churns up the emotions, but after is very healing - I have found it to be a very accurate synopsis. It is called "The Angry Heart", and is written by a psychiatrist in tandem with a BPD sufferer named Samuel. His experiences are very extreme and at first I just thought "no way, this isn't me"
I felt a little disoriented reading it, thinking "am I just being melodramatic? Does this really apply to me?", but the more I read it the more I identify with the issues being discussed. Although the exact situation that Samuel found himself in does not always match mine, I can see how the net effect of his actions is scarily similar to me.
After reading the first chapter, I was moved to write 3 pages of pure spleen, talking through my experiences from early chldhood to now and venting my rage at everyone I could think of! It felt amazing afterwards - a release that had obviously needed to happen for a while.
Anyhow, it is difficult reading because it brings up many negative emotions (mostly anger) so I am taking it in Little doses, intertwined with reading and watching lots of comedy :D The book recommends using a journal, something I think most people that have been in therapy are used to doing, so I have found I can (almost seamlessly apart from wanting to hurt pillows) integrate it with my other self-growth work.
There is a great little tool in there that determines whether you are in "The Borderline Zone, The Recovery Zone or the Free Zone". Obviously each of these refer to your own particular state of illness. I am quite excited again as it seems I am in "recovery" - encouraging because it shows me that the last years of therapy and endless self-improvement are paying off.
If anyone feels it may help them I think its freely available on amazon?
Blue skies
Ross
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