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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on July 4, 2005, at 12:04:05
Does anybody have problems of swinging between extremes?? How do you handle it?
I keep swinging between extremes - like lot of self confidence to extreme negative self confidence, lot of positive thinking to extreme negativity.. and in all areas. Even when I think about things I think in terms of all good or all bad.. even with people like my father and ex T and husband - I vary very wildly in my judgements day to day..
Sometimes I think I am totally worthy of beign loved and nobody will dislike me, and some times I feel I am totally not worthy and nobody will ever like me..
How does one solve this kind of thing?
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 12:44:35
In reply to how do you handle swinging between extremes?, posted by pinkeye on July 4, 2005, at 12:04:05
DBT, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, developed by Marsha Linehan, is specifically designed to target this, among other problems. Some of it can seem a bit silly, but you might appreciate the incorporation of meditation, mindfulness, and other elements of Eastern religion and philosophy.
It also helps just to be aware of it. To catch yourself when you're thinking in extremes, try to remember times you felt differently, and acknowledge to yourself that your perception right now is probably a bit skewed. That's especially helpful in not acting on it.
I don't know how old you are, but I think age helps. The older you get the more you realize that things are never as straightforward as they seem. That A is not completely right, and B is not completely wrong, but that both A and B contain elements of truth. Sometimes completely contradictory elements of truth that yet manage to both be correct. Now we're back to DBT.
Medication can also play a part in levelling the mood swings that lead to extreme feeling. But they do have side effects.
My own opinion is that swinging between extremes generally causes one a lot of pain. It can also be comforting in a way. It's a lot of work to see and try to change the pattern, and there's no doubt but that you lose something along the way. IMHO, it's worth it. But then I've never liked pain. Or intensity.
A while back I proposed reading and practicing DBT here on Babble, but there wasn't much interest. If you're personally interested, though, I'd be happy to do it with you. There is also a Yahoo group specifically designed for that. I think I've lost the link, though.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 13:43:04
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 12:44:35
I'd be interested in this, Dinah. I must not have seen (or known anything about DBT and) your proposal. it sounds fascinating, and I would like to even myself out emotionally.
partlycloudy
Posted by pinkeye on July 4, 2005, at 13:46:44
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 12:44:35
Thanks Dinah. I will check it out..
I didn't mean swinging in something which is uncontrollable for me.. I am usually am aware that I am taking a black/white picture even when I am in one of the extremes.I will check out DBT. And will let you know.
I am 28 - not sure if that is old enough to have developed a more sensible view of life.. I guess I am getting there.
> DBT, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, developed by Marsha Linehan, is specifically designed to target this, among other problems. Some of it can seem a bit silly, but you might appreciate the incorporation of meditation, mindfulness, and other elements of Eastern religion and philosophy.
>
> It also helps just to be aware of it. To catch yourself when you're thinking in extremes, try to remember times you felt differently, and acknowledge to yourself that your perception right now is probably a bit skewed. That's especially helpful in not acting on it.
>
> I don't know how old you are, but I think age helps. The older you get the more you realize that things are never as straightforward as they seem. That A is not completely right, and B is not completely wrong, but that both A and B contain elements of truth. Sometimes completely contradictory elements of truth that yet manage to both be correct. Now we're back to DBT.
>
> Medication can also play a part in levelling the mood swings that lead to extreme feeling. But they do have side effects.
>
> My own opinion is that swinging between extremes generally causes one a lot of pain. It can also be comforting in a way. It's a lot of work to see and try to change the pattern, and there's no doubt but that you lose something along the way. IMHO, it's worth it. But then I've never liked pain. Or intensity.
>
> A while back I proposed reading and practicing DBT here on Babble, but there wasn't much interest. If you're personally interested, though, I'd be happy to do it with you. There is also a Yahoo group specifically designed for that. I think I've lost the link, though.
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 14:01:11
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 13:43:04
Sure, pc. It doesn't take more than two of us who are interested. It wouldn't be much fun just by myself, but if even one other person is willing to do it with me, I'd be delighted.
Do you have Linehan's "Skills Training Manual for Treating Borderline Personality Disorder"?
I'm not sure how best to work it. I don't know if going chapter by chapter would be best, or bringing up current situations in our lives and seeing how we could apply DBT to it would be better. I think the latter is what the Yahoo group did. It assumed a basic familiarity with the program, and concentrated on application.
Either way would be fine with me, since my familiarity with the program is not all that strong.
I certainly have trouble applying the concepts. Too often certain aspects of mindfulness degenerate into dissociation in my hands. :) Which is the exact opposite of what they're supposed to do, I think.
I've also got a few of her videotapes. I'm not sure they contributed greatly to my understanding, but I could look them over.
I tried for a while to do it in therapy, and may try again. But I didn't like turning my therapist into a trainer. It set my back up and made me mulish. :)
Posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 16:34:50
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 12:44:35
Dinah,
I would be interested in participating, if there is a group of babblers interested in DBT.
I am now thinking about doing therapy, which is a big step for me. I am not sure how it will work because I am not the most open person when it comes to personal things, even with my closest friends. That's not to say I am a cold, heartless person, I just keep a lot to myself. So, I will give it a go I think. I may even look into EMRD, but I don't really know much about it and whether it would be good for me.
Tamara
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 16:44:52
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » Dinah, posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 16:34:50
It'd probably be a very small group. :)
Which way of approaching it would seem more sensible to you?
Posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 17:07:05
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » TamaraJ, posted by Dinah on July 4, 2005, at 16:44:52
Small is good :-) I guess a sensible approach would be to get the most suitable book and work through each chapter together. I'm pretty new to this, so I will follow the lead of others.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 17:13:40
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » Dinah, posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 17:07:05
I have to get the book too (and we are going on vacation later this week). Argh! My timing always stinks.
(Oh, and EMDR helped me a great deal.)
pc
Posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 17:36:33
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » TamaraJ, posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 17:13:40
pc,
I don't imagine we will start until everybody is ready. Is it your trip to Canada to visit your family and jyl that you are leaving for? Maybe you can get the book at Chapters when you are in Canada, and then we could start when you get back, if everybody else is ready.
Re the EMRD, do you need to spill your guts and talk about deeply personal things? Or, can you talk in general terms about things that might be bothering you, and how those things make you feel?
> I have to get the book too (and we are going on vacation later this week). Argh! My timing always stinks.
> (Oh, and EMDR helped me a great deal.)
> pc
Posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 19:57:29
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » partlycloudy, posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 17:36:33
> pc,
>
> I don't imagine we will start until everybody is ready. Is it your trip to Canada to visit your family and jyl that you are leaving for? Maybe you can get the book at Chapters when you are in Canada, and then we could start when you get back, if everybody else is ready.
>
Doh - good idea! yes, this is one and the same trip. I've had a few preparatory migraines in advance of seeing my family (groan...) and meeting jyl will be a true treat for me.
> Re the EMRD, do you need to spill your guts and talk about deeply personal things? Or, can you talk in general terms about things that might be bothering you, and how those things make you feel?
>
In the treatments I had, I recalled specific traumatic events, evoking the same emotions, and using the process, moved through the entire event(s) to resolve how I felt about them. So, for me; yes, we were very specific and detailed about the memories we addressed. It worked for some issues, and not at all for others. I think it depended on what I was ready internally to deal with and finally put behind me.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2005, at 20:32:15
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » TamaraJ, posted by partlycloudy on July 4, 2005, at 19:57:29
I did a year of DBT and it would be helpful for me to revisit the skills. I haven't got the skills training manual at the mo - but can get it from the library no problem (though I typically have to recall it).
The manual is designed to be taught over 6 months. Well, it is supposed to be taught over 12 months - but that is because they found benefit to going through all the skills twice. They are fairly holistic. You need some of the latter skills to appreciate and better master the former ones, and so it can be hard to find a point of entry in the first place.
I think it goes:
Mindfulness
Emotion Regulation
Interpersonal Effectiveness.It is supposed to take 6 months of 2 hour group therapy once per week to get through all the skills. The first hour was 'education' on the skills and the second hour was practice.
The sections are broken down into 'lectures' (or something similar). We could find out how many of those there are and think about how long we want to take with it. It might be beneficial to go a bit slowish and really try to apply them to specific situations as we go. They really can be tricky to get the hang of. Maybe one lecture a week (in which case it would take us 6 months). But people could come and go as they feel inclined. If people find it to be of use we could even keep going through them again and people can just pick up bits and pieces.
I think it could be really helpful for most people. Learning that stuff has helped improve the quality of my life immensely (yeah ok, but you should have seen me before!)
Posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2005, at 20:37:58
In reply to Re: I'd be keen, posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2005, at 20:32:15
Linehan talks a lot about dialectics in the main training manual.
She talks about how therapy is like the client being on one end of a teeter totter (by which I think she means see saw) and the therapist being at the other. Therapy is the dynamic of trying to shift the client to move up the pole a little bit towards the centre. Then the therapist can move there a little bit and the idea is for both to get to the middle and 'transcend' the problem. But the danger is that if the therapist isn't careful the client will jump back towards their pole. And the see saw isn't just a see saw... It is a pole over the grand canyon and there can be real harm if the client falls off backwards.
He. I liked that.
It is about there being one POV on the one hand and the other POV on the other hand. And the danger is in the swinging between them as though one must be right and the other wrong and the difficulty is in deciding which is right and which is wrong.
But... There is a grain of truth in most things and so you need to redescribe the positions in such a way that the truth in both is adequately captured and the polarisation just fades away.
It is really hard to explain and to grasp.
But it is absolutely brilliant when it is done well.
Absolutely brilliant :-)
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 0:55:56
In reply to Re: I'd be keen, posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2005, at 20:32:15
Sounds as if you have the best idea of how to go about it. I'd be happy to follow. :)
So tell us what to do.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 1:15:43
In reply to Re: I'd be keen » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 0:55:56
Oooh nooo
backpeddling now...Um...
It might be worth trying to see whether you can get excerpts / chapters / summaries of the skills manual online. That would make the reading easier. I guess the hardest thing is that the point of them is putting them into practice in your life and using them. You are supposed to make a committment to doing that. So that means homework...
If I remember rightly the story begins with mindfulness:
observe
describe
participate
And there is a fairly major unpacking of what those things MEAN.
Its something that people would have to try and do and then talk about how they found it etc.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 1:25:33
In reply to Re: I'd be keen » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 1:15:43
Ok. There is a self-help consumer group here:
http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/index.html
From there there are all the handouts and explanations and everything. So it is all there. And there it is.
Oh. There was a 4th section too. Distress tolerance. We did that straight after mindfulness (keep em out of hosiptal by telling them to practice their mindfulness skills ;-)
Posted by happyflower on July 5, 2005, at 8:19:18
In reply to Re: how do you handle swinging between extremes? » partlycloudy, posted by TamaraJ on July 4, 2005, at 17:36:33
> Re the EMRD, do you need to spill your guts and talk about deeply personal things? Or, can you talk in general terms about things that might be bothering you, and how those things make you feel?
The cool thing about EMDR is that you don't have to spill your guts. In fact an EMDR tech can do the work without even knowing what the painful memory is. You can say like "one day in a dark hallway". You do have to THINK about it while he is doing the EMDR, but you don't have to tell the T all the details of the memory. Or you can if you want to, for me it is important for me for my T to know what the memory is. EMDR has been very helpful with my past. It has changed my life.
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:51:04
In reply to Re: I'd be keen » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 1:15:43
But why? The backpeddling I mean.
You're obviously the most experienced among us, and it's not a huge commitment. Once we get on track, if you aren't around someone else can do it. The main problem is figuring out what to do.
I don't imagine it's the same thing as reading Ms. Lott's book and commenting on each chapter, because knowing it intellectually won't help a whole lot.
And along those lines, could you answer a question for me? I have used the mindfulness techniques at times. I particularly like the imagery of watching your feelings flow by like leaves on a stream without acting on them. Just observing them.
But I find that those techniques just end up in more dissociation for me. I become so much the observer that I lose awareness of ownership of the feelings altogether. And I'm not sure that's a good thing at all.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 17:04:13
In reply to Re: I'd be keen » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2005, at 13:51:04
> But why? The backpeddling I mean.
Because I have to give a seminar in a couple weeks and then I have a month (well, two with the extension I haven't applied for yet) to finish my thesis. I can't committ to anything else right now. I'll tag along as best I can, though. It was also rather a long time ago... And I only did the skills once rather than twice because uni started up and I had a class on at that time.
> The main problem is figuring out what to do.Yeah.
> I don't imagine it's the same thing as reading Ms. Lott's book and commenting on each chapter, because knowing it intellectually won't help a whole lot.Yeah. Thats why people need to practice the exercises and then talk about problems that they had with implementing the skills.
> And along those lines, could you answer a question for me? I have used the mindfulness techniques at times. I particularly like the imagery of watching your feelings flow by like leaves on a stream without acting on them. Just observing them.> But I find that those techniques just end up in more dissociation for me. I become so much the observer that I lose awareness of ownership of the feelings altogether. And I'm not sure that's a good thing at all.
Ok. From memory... The point of that exercise is to show you that you are not your emotions. You are more or greater than your emotions and are not to be identified with them. That way when your emotions are distressing to you it might help to be able to step back from them rather than feeling consumed by them.
You can do the same thing with your thoughts.
Your visual perceptions etc etc.There are lots of different exercises. Some people prefer some of them and don't much like other ones. Its ok to focus on the ones that are helpful for you.
If the exercise leaves you feeling dissociated then thats probably counter-productive.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 18:33:44
In reply to Re: I'd be keen » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 17:04:13
Actually... I seem to remember that dissociation may even have been slightly encouraged in the first couple months of skills training. The numbing aspect of it anyway. Preferable to feel numb than to feel consumed by emotion and SI as a way of escaping. Preferable to use dissociation rather than SI as a coping strategy.
But that was just initially - and for use as a last resort strategy before using SI (or phoning crisis services).
My t said I should avoid the exercises that made me feel dissociated once she realised my SI occured mostly in dissociative episodes.
This is the end of the thread.
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