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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 1:02:08
I can get through a day now without seriously thinking about my ex T. No wait, that's not true. But I can get through a day without obsessing.
But I dream, night after night, about him. I didn't start dreaming about him until I terminated. I did have one dream when I had only 2 sessions left with him, that I was sitting in his office trying to talk to him, and he kept disappearing, literally vanishing. I asked him why and he wouldn't tell me why he kept doing that.
I don't remember my dreams very well usually, and the ones I have lately are not exceptions. But I always meet him by chance in these dreams, and we always have a very limited time to talk, and when I leave I feel like I'm being pulled away by something stronger than me. And I wake up feeling very sad. :-(
I wish, I wish that to have him would mean that all my "daddy" needs are taken care of. I think I want to believe that. That if I could just have him as my T in my life indefinitely, that this gaping hole inside would disappear.
I'm getting really close to my senior recital, and all I can think is that he won't be there. I have trouble concentrating on all the people who *will* be there. It's so petty, I know. It was so incredibly special last year, to walk onstage and see him, beaming, in the last seat of the last row. To think of that now makes me smile.
And now he doesn't want to hear from me, doesn't want me to call, or even e-mail all that much. I feel like it's my fault, but the only fault I have is that I'm not his client anymore, and I couldn't help that now, could I?
How do those of you who are close to termination, or have terminated, or are thinking about it, how do you fill that hole? Can it even be done? Is this a dumb question?
Posted by pegasus on March 30, 2005, at 12:21:46
In reply to I can't escape him, posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 1:02:08
I will just never understand why therapists think this is a reasonable way to terminate a client. It is *not* easier for the client to have no contact with their ex-T. It does *not* facilitate the client moving on to a new therapist more easily. It feels like a rejection and a betrayal, which makes it much *harder* to continue productive therapy with a new therapist. Why is that so hard to understand from a theoretical point of view? (exasperated sigh at the psychotherapy profession)
I was lucky in that my ex-T has been willing to stay in contact. For the first several months, I emailed him every couple of weeks or so, and he'd reply to about half of my emails with short but warm messages. I even called him once about 2 months after he left, to make sure he was ok, and still there if I needed him. Lately I've been emailing him a lot less. But I know that if I did contact him, he'd reply, especially if it was about something big. Maybe he was so generous about this because it was his fault that my therapy ended prematurely (he moved away unexpectedly for personal reasons).
It just seems like such a kinder and more supportive and consistent way to handle it. I wish you could have had that type of termination also. Not that it was easy, but it sounds like it was at least easier.
(((voce)))
pegasus
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 12:38:57
In reply to I can't escape him, posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 1:02:08
I have dreams about my ex T all the time too - usually around he is trying to restrict himself or in some way not available and me trying to keep in touch.. it used to happen before the termination also.
It is so very hard on the patients when the therapists want to stop contact. It just feels so so so awful. But unfortunately that is what they seem to want, and we don't have any other choice. And I do think for the vast majority of people, it does work for their good.. to not have too much of contact with their ex T - people who don't have a tendency to get attahced. But for some of us, it works in the opposite..
Posted by Shortelise on March 30, 2005, at 13:14:41
In reply to I can't escape him, posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 1:02:08
Could you be internalising him?
Posted by Tamar on March 30, 2005, at 14:46:12
In reply to I can't escape him, posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 1:02:08
I'm sorry you're feeling so much pain. I stopped seeing my T less than two weeks ago and I'm in a similar situation. I dream about him every second night. Sometimes I have pleasant dreams: once I dreamed he was holding me very close and comforting me. I was sorry to wake up from that one! Other times I've had peculiar dreams, in which he's there but doesn't speak to me. And once I dreamed he gave me his shoes. I have no clue what that was about!
Everywhere I go, when I see a man about the same age and build I think it's him, until I realise I'm looking at someone a little shorter or a little older, or with different hair or something. And I keep thinking of things to tell him, and then I realise I won't see him to tell him anything.
I think termination is a lot like bereavement. I don't think it's petty at all that you think about his absence from your recital instead of the people who will be there. That's how it is when we experience loss. The person we've lost takes on a huge significance. I don't think the hole can be filled, exactly, but I do think that somehow it should become less of a hole as time goes by. Mind you, I will admit that it still feels like a hole to me. I've started keeping a diary and I write in it how I'm feeling about my former T, and sometimes I just read it. It helps me a little.
Do you think it would be OK to email him about your forthcoming recital, and mention how special it was when he came to the last one? I don't think that would constitute 'emailing over much', since it's about a very important event in your life. He might even email you back to wish you well. Or would an email exchange at this point make you feel worse, and all mixed up?
I hope things will begin to get easier for you.
Tamar
Posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 0:12:32
In reply to Re: I can't escape him » messadivoce, posted by pegasus on March 30, 2005, at 12:21:46
Yes, I do wish that he would have shown me a little more "grace" instead of abrubtly deciding that "this is the way it is" in terms of post-termination contact. I hope that he learned something from how much pain it put me through.
Posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 0:14:25
In reply to Re: I can't escape him » messadivoce, posted by Shortelise on March 30, 2005, at 13:14:41
Hmm, I don't know. It was actually my current T's opinion that I'm having trouble internalizing him, which was why I felt so terrible. But maybe I am...what does it feel like when you internalize a T?
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 9:16:34
In reply to Internalizing » Shortelise, posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 0:14:25
Well, I think I'm doing a pretty good job of internalizing mine right now. But if I were ever to feel like he abandoned me, I'd externalize him as quickly as possible. Probably not wise, but it's what I'd do.
Maybe anger first then internalization?
Posted by Susan47 on March 31, 2005, at 9:23:24
In reply to Re: Internalizing » messadivoce, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 9:16:34
Have you actually tried coping with a T who abandoned you? I can tell you that my last one did, and I had internalized him, and I cannot for the life of me "externalize" him. I am going through absolute Hell. If I were a person who could easily manage my feelings, I probably wouldn't have been to see a therapist in the first place.
Susan, butting in again, 47.
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 9:31:48
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 31, 2005, at 9:23:24
I meant internalization in a good helpful way, not the bad way.
I'm sure if he abandoned me, I'd be left with really horrible feelings. My past posts have been more explicit.
But what I was saying was that internalizing a therapist in a positive way (which is what I assume her current therapist is talking about) is difficult if you're harboring a fair amount of anger or feelings of abandonment.
Posted by annierose on March 31, 2005, at 9:53:19
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 9:31:48
For me, internalizing, is a safe place within myself IRL. It's a place I go to when I feel I'm out of my comfort zone. For instance, I'm visiting my parents and siblings and nieces + nephews, for Spring Break. There are moments I can feel "danger! danger!" creeping upon me. It is then I feel my T's calming presence around me.
I talk to her and can "hear" her responses.That is what internalization feels like for me.
Posted by Shortelise on March 31, 2005, at 11:36:32
In reply to Internalizing » Shortelise, posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 0:14:25
darned if I know...
Posted by Susan47 on March 31, 2005, at 11:56:41
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 9:31:48
What you don't get maybe is that I DID internalize my therapist in a good way. I actually saw his face very clearly in my mind's eye, and heard his voice, and he was repeating stuff I've heard him say in the office, and it was helping immensely. But he also sparked the feelings that caused me to need to internalize him. And he couldn't work through that with me, he didn't have the courage and I didn't have the courage to ask so I went round about, round about in hell and am still doing that even though I briefly tried another T. But there's unresolved stuff,
and yes,
I did internalize him in a good way.
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 14:22:09
In reply to Re: Internalizing, posted by Susan47 on March 31, 2005, at 11:56:41
I was talking about me, Susan. I was saying that *now* I have internalized my therapist in a good way. There's a warm safe spot inside that I can go to (at least short term) to hold me over to the next session. I can picture a little him in my minds eye telling me more or less what he'd actually tell me.
But for ME, if he were to do anything that felt like abandonment to me, I wouldn't be able to hold on to those good things. I'd be too angry. The space where he is inside would turn ugly. And I was suggesting that if messadivorce experienced things as I did, that she might have trouble internalizing him in a positive way while she's angry. And that she and her therapist might want to work on anger rather than internalization.
Or she (or you for that matter) might not be anything like me. She (or you) might not feel overwhelming rage if your therapist/mommy, ummmmm... excuse me - your therapist, were to do something that felt like abandonment. Everyone reacts to things differently. So if what I say doesn't apply to you, that's fine.
I just tend to get angry with abandonment. I'm even a bit angry with Daddy and Harry for leaving me here all alone.
But that's me.
Posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 22:33:56
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 14:22:09
Yes Dinah, sometimes I'm almost to that point where I have that warm spot inside where he is...but thinking about him is so incredibly painful. I think of something about him that supposed to make me smile, that was a good memory, but it ends up hurting. So I don't smile very much when I think of him, all I can think about is the end result--that he left.
:-(
Posted by Dinah on April 1, 2005, at 18:43:57
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Dinah, posted by messadivoce on March 31, 2005, at 22:33:56
Are you angry? Under all the sensible reasonableness of knowing that he didn't mean to hurt you. And under all the warm gratitude?
Maybe I'm just a not nice person, but I would be so very angry. Of course, my therapist has done a lot to encourage my trust and to lead me to believe he won't be moving or retiring or whatever. And that he doesn't mind my having forever therapy, or being my forever therapist/mommy. So maybe the anger would be justified.
But...
I think I'd be angry anyway.
When it comes to attachments, I'm way more small child than mature adult.
Posted by messadivoce on April 2, 2005, at 20:08:25
In reply to Re: Internalizing » messadivoce, posted by Dinah on April 1, 2005, at 18:43:57
Yes Dinah, you are right, I think. I have a lot of gratitude I feel, and the most reasonable parts of me know that he didn't try to hurt me. But I'm angry with him anyway.
He didn't promise me "forever therapy" and even if he could have, I don't know if he would've. He told me near the end of therapy that I didn't really need him anymore. Maybe that was just his wishful thinking. Maybe I took that to mean he was trying to loosen my attachment to him.
I just had this unreasonable expectation that because he cared, that he would always care. I mean, where do I get off thinking that, right? I did feel like I was about 5 years old a lot of the time. When I said goodbye to him the last time I wanted to just cry, "don't leave me!"
So you and I are about the same psychological age when it comes to attachments...
Posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 16:51:40
In reply to Re: Internalizing » Dinah, posted by messadivoce on April 2, 2005, at 20:08:25
It is not just you and Dinah. I am there too. And I think almost all the clients who enter into therapy somehow wish that the therapist would be there for them for their lifetime.. And it sucks to realize that it is a time bound relationship. I am in the same boat as you are, trying to keep in touch with my ex T, and him not allowing it.. or atleast not encouraging it. And it really is a bad state to be in. It hurts to know that the person who you thought cared the most about you and was there all the time, simply is not there anymore. It doesn't make sense in a logical world, and I wonder how people survive therapy and move on once they get attached to their therapists. I am afraid there really is no answer to this issue. Every day I still wish that I would receive a warm and caring email from my old T - and of course it never happens. Sometimes I am angry, sometimes I am very frustrated, sometimes I just wish I were wise enough in the first place to see it for what it was - jsut a therapeutic relationship and not got confused into mistaking it for a personal one.. that I had the wisdom to be indifferent like how my Ts are. And sometiems I am angry - angry at myself for getting into this trap and thinking how the hell did I not understand the nature of it in the first place..
But at the end, there is just no answer to any of it, and it hurts a lot.. and I don't know what to say to console you. As people say, maybe time will heal it.. I wonder though if ever I will be able to get over what it feels like right now to lose a person who seemed to care about you abruptly like that and not have any contact. It just doesn't make any sense, yet, that is what therapists do all the time. And I don't know why it is designed that way.
Sorry, I am just rambling, and not being of any help to you, but maybe you can take comfort knowing other people are like as you are..
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 17:47:39
In reply to Re: Internalizing » messadivoce, posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 16:51:40
Pinkeye -
15ish years ago, I abruptly quit therapy, after being with the same T for 5 years. And although it was my doing, it was still quite painful (Crushedout can relate, I'm sure).But it does get better. At first, I would be happy that I got through the month with no appointments. And month by month, it kept getting easier, where soon, and I don't remember "when", but I stopped counting ... 6 or 7 months? I just don't remember. I kept on living my life.
However, shortly after I quit, my husband divorced me. That was 2 major losses within a few months of each other. I did seek out professional help, but she was totally opposite my T. My T was psychodynamic and I switched to this Zen-type person, with candles and hugs and yuck. But it was a change, and she helped me with the loss of my therapist and husband. I only stayed with her for maybe 6 months (tops).
I guess what I am trying to say, with time, the loss will not be as painful. Do things for yourself. My "Zen T" kept asking me that question, "what does Annierose want to do with her life now?" Figuring I had nothing to lose at that point, I did open my own business, which I still have today. I took all that energy, and put it towards a productive goal. Good Luck. It is a difficult and worthwhile journey!!
Posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 18:07:04
In reply to Re: Internalizing » pinkeye, posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 17:47:39
I know things get better with time.. But I don't know if that is because you heal, or because you just forget and it fades and dulls. They say time heals everything.. I think time just dulls everything, certain things it does heal, but other things it just dulls and fades and it never really heals. But maybe that is just as good as it gets anyway.
Posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 18:44:34
In reply to Re: Internalizing » annierose, posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 18:07:04
And the worst part is, you know that it is neither your mistake, nor your therapist's mistake. Maybe this whole idea of therapy is wrong.. or atleast people should not go with opposite sex therapist or maybe they should just go to therapists whom they completely detest. Next time I have to chose a therapist, I will make sure I pick one who looks like a monster and rude and ugly and sick looking. I think that is why I chose to stick to my current T. She is completely cold and unemotional, so I have no way of liking her.
Anyway, Voce I am sorry I am hijacking your thread. I will stop here. Take Care.
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 19:12:43
In reply to Re: Internalizing » annierose, posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 18:07:04
Interesting pinkeye - the difference between time fading or dulling the pain vs. healing. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I must confess, I don't know the answer.
However, going back to my story, last January I did call T1 (the one I quit with 15 years prior) and I am in treatment with her now. And I am so happy I called her, and not a new therapist. We are both different (in a positive way) and I am getting much more out of the experience this time. For one thing, I'm older (and so is she, and more experienced as a T) and financially, it's a bigger commitment now (my insurance paid 100% last time around).
So back to your point, those positive feelings I had towards her came back, but they are not as intense. But maybe because I'm in a better place than I was 20 years ago when I first started seeing her. Back then, I quit mid-session at least 5 or 6 times, kept getting 2nd, 3rd or 4th opinions. I laugh thinking back at how I behaved, but it is something I needed to go
through.BUT ... if she had to terminate me suddenly for some unexpected reason (please no), I do think I would feel that ache in my heart once again, but knowing I would get through it one more time, a day at a time. And with my babble friend's help!!
-Annierose
Posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 19:32:15
In reply to Re: Internalizing » pinkeye, posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 19:12:43
Taht must be interesting - to go back to the same old T once again. I wonder what it would be like if I ever go back to my old T again.. I don't think he would take me back - he has told me all he has to say.. and I don't think I will go back again either - the emotions are too high for me. Can't go through it once again. But it might be interesting, if the paths cross once again. To see how we have grown since. But more than likely, I will perhaps never even see him again - let alone go to therapy.
Letting time fade things is a good thing - but not for all .. certain things, you need to heal, otherwise it just comes back again and again and manifests itself in different forms.
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 20:49:53
In reply to Re: Internalizing » annierose, posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 19:32:15
I do understand what you mean about going back. I still can't believe I'm back with "HER". Of course, I never thought I would. But my current husband and I went through a painful string of unfortunate events and I knew I needed some support.
Sometimes, I still can't get my mind wrapped around it. And although it's a different feeling for my T, I still have to believe she likes that I have come back, to her. By that I mean, it's fun to see someone after such a dramatic quitting (me) and then calling her again (such FEAR I had that she could say "no").
So far, a year later, it's a solid theraputic relationship. I'm taking chances and really putting myself out there.
-Annierose
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2005, at 20:52:06
In reply to Re: Internalizing » annierose, posted by pinkeye on April 4, 2005, at 19:32:15
What mode of therapy did your T practice? From what I read, it sounded like a short term therapy. My T is psychodynamic, therefore, they always believe there is more to explore!!!
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