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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
What do you understand by "sense of self"? A lack or loss of sense of self seems to form part of nearly every psychiatric diagnosis. My T tells me I have almost no "sense of self", and this statement, apart from making me feel as if I am dead, and making me want to die, doesn't really make any "sense" to me. Can anyone help?
Posted by sunny10 on February 15, 2005, at 13:58:04
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
for me, it meant that I never put my thoughts and feelings first. That I thought everyone else had value, but I didn't.
Does that help? It probably means different things for different people, but maybe my experience sounds emotionally familiar to you?
Posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 14:01:24
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
I was told one of my core issues was having a poor sense of identity. I'm not sure if it's the same thing as a sense of self. For me it meant I didn't have a solid sense of my own feelings, values, personality characteristics, likes and dislikes, and so forth. I tended to focus more on what others wanted, and adapted my "self" to fit each situation. It does leave one feeling empty and insecure, without a solid core. I was also extrememely vulnerable to criticism and disapproval, and practically felt I'd die if others were unhappy with me.
The good thing is you can improve on that stuff. This lack supposedly developed in childhood because instead of feeling the support of my loved ones, I felt their distress and focused on trying to monitor their moods and be as little trouble as possible. So it's like I didn't really have space to exist.
Posted by sunny10 on February 15, 2005, at 14:23:23
In reply to Re: Sense of self, posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 14:01:24
thank you for putting it in the correct words...
I am struggling, but it feels like English is a foreign tongue to me these days.... stress, I guess- born an American in 1967 and lived here all my life!!! (sigh.....)
Posted by littleone on February 15, 2005, at 14:49:21
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
My T and I were talking about this before I had my shutdown.
I get very confused over this and will try to say what he said, although it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
He said I have a shattered ego and a damaged sense of self. When I asked for what exactly this means, he said that I have a deep and strong belief that I'm worthless which is apparently the worst belief that one can have. Like it undermines everything that you are. But to me, this just sounds like poor self esteem, so I guess I'm missing something here.
I've been reading a book "Coping with Trauma" by Jon G Allen. It has a chapter about self. Here's a small part that really jumped out at me:
He says that the self "entails a feeling of being 'myself' that is stable across time and space. I feel that I continue to be myself day after day, month after month, year after year. I continue to be myself whether I'm at home, at work or out on the town. I continue to be myself at different times and in different places, despite the many changes in my self from time to time and place to place."
"Continuity in the face of discontinuity is perhaps the essence of the subjective sense of self. I know who I am, and I continue to be who I am. Implied in continuity is a sense of cohesiveness, unity, integrity, wholeness and identity."
He says that included in this is also a sense of distinctness from others and separateness. And this all goes hand in hand with self-efficacy (a feeling of power and influence, the ability to bring about an intended result).
He also says that this continuity changes over time as you change. Also, you experience gradual or more abrupt changes in mood, eg people say 'I wasn't myself' after saying or doing something out of character.
Hope that all made sense outside of the book's context.
Also, I think I have a lot of trouble with my sense of self because I can't see inside myself. I think self awareness is a big part of it all.
Posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 16:18:48
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
What everyone else has said is wonderful. In addition to that, I want to add this. What Doctors mean by a strong sense of self esteem is, you know who you are and what you want in life and what makes you happy, what makes you not happy, and you are not disturbed by anything that happens outside to a large extent.
Maybe you can think of being a liquid as opposed to being a solid. If you are like water and a liquid, you just mold into the shape of whatever vessel you are poured into. But if you are a solid and have your own shape, you remain what you are. Apparently this is better for human being's self identity. I however think, too much of either is bad. You need to be somewhat of a solid gel kind of thing. You need to have your own identity, but you should also have the capability to mould into something if needed and if you so chose. Being a bar of iron is not something we should aim at.
Remember also that, in this world of current days, a sense of self worth and self esteem and finding meaning for your own self is highly emphasized. I feel it is being done a little too much. In the olden days, people were not forced to have a high sense of self esteem and self worth. They were more taught to belong, and they lived in a society and derived their values and sense of well being from one another and participating in a community and living for something larger than yourself. In the current days, with individualism being focussed on too much, we are all asked to find meaning for ourselves in our lives which is not always correct. Human beings are not an end in themselves, and nor can they have a strong sense of identity and self worth just by themselves. It is practically impossible to derive a strong sense of what you want in life and who you want to be without participating in/ and living for a society to some extent. You should have a blend of both.
Posted by pegasus on February 15, 2005, at 17:03:30
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
I think what everyone has said so far is right on. I wanted to add another aspect: entanglement. I've been told that I don't have a good sense of self, too. For me, part of that is that I have a hard time seeing myself as distinct from some family members, most notably my sister. I have this experience from time to time, where I suddenly realize that whoever I'm talking to doesn't know my sister, and thinks I'm just my own person. It kind of freaks me out, because a lot of times I unconsciously feel like I'm being my sister, or playing her role or something. Especially at work, when I put on my "competent" personality.
Apparently, really stable and mentally healthy people don't have this sense of putting on a persona to fit the occasion all the time.
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:32:55
In reply to Re: Sense of self » vwoolf, posted by littleone on February 15, 2005, at 14:49:21
The information from that book is sort of how my therapist described my having poor ego strength. I still struggle with that concept.
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:33:52
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
I was about to post a "Where is vwoolf" post.
I hope you're well?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 15, 2005, at 20:03:11
In reply to Sense of self, posted by vwoolf on February 15, 2005, at 12:45:22
Here is an article from my absolutely favourite author.
He starts with looking at the 'soul'.
Then into a biological notion of the 'self'
(Including the notion of boundaries)to see how selves can emerge via evolution.
Then into a distinctively human notion with the role of language / self-representation / narration.
Then into the idea of 'multiple selves'.It is a good account and fairly understandable and common-sense.
I hope someone enjoys it...
Posted by saw on February 16, 2005, at 4:48:43
In reply to Good to see you » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:33:52
I second that. I have missed you and think of you very often.
S
Posted by vwoolf on February 16, 2005, at 13:07:36
In reply to Good to see you » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:33:52
> I was about to post a "Where is vwoolf" post.
>
> I hope you're well?Hi Dinah and Sabrina, thanks for thinking about me. I've been quiet for some time because so many things seem to have been happening in my life - mostly around therapy unfortunately.
The saga with my H has continued unabated, and we finally started couple's therapy last week. It hasn't stopped us quarrelling yet - another HUGE row this evening, with him following me from room to room shouting, until I ended up huddled on the floor in a corner of our bedroom. I must have looked so pathetic and crazy at that point that he was forced to withdraw. What tomorrow will bring I don't know. What makes it hard is that I actually understand what he is going through, and his anger, but I can't allow his pain and rage to negate my existance any longer. It's a horrible place to be.
But this brings us to four mental health specialists for a family of three. Talk about the dysfunctional family! It also means that I am seeing T's just about every day of the week! Oh God.
I have also been speaking to the head of the mental hospital where I spent some time many years ago. She has agreed to take me around the hospital, to try and process what I went through. My T supports me in this project, but she says I will be shocked. I feel very nervous and emotional about this. I really want to do it, but I am terrified that it will confirm my feelings of madness. It's probably not the best time to be doing this, but I may not have the courage later. A few weeks ago I also visited the home where I grew up - it brought up some powerful feelings and memories around the csa and neglect, but started an amazing process of working through things, and understanding them for the first time. I honestly haven't had much time for PB with all this going on.
I am still visiting the s&m chat rooms regularly - I know it is repeating the csa, and I know I do it when I need care, like I did with my father, but with all the fighting in the house, I am often in need of care. And I can't phone my T every time I feel hurt. I wish I could find some other way to soothe myself, but nothing really seems to work.
Posted by sunny10 on February 16, 2005, at 13:39:29
In reply to Re: Good to see you, posted by vwoolf on February 16, 2005, at 13:07:36
can't you let US try to soothe you a little instead of hurting yourself more?
I do understand clinging to "the devil you know", but I would much rather see you looking for the angels, instead...
I have met quite a few of them here... the support I've seen on Babble has lifted me up many, many times.
Wishing only the best for you (and really excited that you are allowing yourself permission to get this much help- hubby, too),
sunny10
Posted by saw on February 17, 2005, at 4:05:23
In reply to Re: Good to see you, posted by vwoolf on February 16, 2005, at 13:07:36
That you are going through all of this. I always feel so anxious when someone I care about, and who is not too far away, is in fact so out of reach.
I have been doing the huddling in a corner thing with alarming regularity and my husband also tends to review it as pathetic. Just last night he said "here we go again". Fortunately he does not follow me from room to room, he withdraws emotionally and often just leaves the house. That in itself creates more problems for me.
But this isn't about me, I was just trying to say that I do understand.
I admire the way you are confronting so many painful things head on. That takes so much strength. While it will be torture, I really do hope that these confrontations will bring a little bit of relieve.
Again, it was good to hear from you, even if what we heard was sad.
Sabrina
Posted by vwoolf on February 17, 2005, at 12:56:29
In reply to Re: Good to see you » vwoolf, posted by sunny10 on February 16, 2005, at 13:39:29
Thanks to all of you who replied. It all felt so appropriate that it became difficult to reply. I think Sunny's comment says a lot about me though. I can't seem to use positive ways of self soothing, even Babble is difficult for me, and I think a lot of what you all wrote about "sense of self" or "self esteem" says precisely that. That if you have no sense of self, you have no way of looking after yourself caringly. So I keep repeating abusive patterns.
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 13:58:15
In reply to Re: Good to see you, posted by vwoolf on February 17, 2005, at 12:56:29
yes, that's it exactly.
But now that you KNOW this, you need to take special care to PRACTICE.
It's hard to start, I know. I personally felt that the affirmations and stuff were complete bull when I was told by my T to use them, so I just try to focus my attention on other stuff.
Taking a bath with my book.
Taking a hike in the woods.
Going to the library to get new books.
Bought a DVD player (it's SO hard for me to spend money on anything that I WANT, rather than need to survive- but I budgeted until I could do it.)Stuff like that helped me to then start actively looking for ways to improve my outlook on life.
I still get down on myself at times. But I'm at Babble because this is something I do for me. I look for other's opinions on what I can't wrap my head around and I offer my opinion to others.
A win-win scenario, in my opinion...
IF you REALLY have a hard time starting to do things for yourself, then start by doing them for us...amateur reverse psychology, I know, but the idea is that you will start enjoying these things in their own right and do them for you eventually!
big hugs to you!
sunny10
Posted by littleone on February 17, 2005, at 20:17:39
In reply to Re: Sense of self » littleone, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:32:55
> The information from that book is sort of how my therapist described my having poor ego strength. I still struggle with that concept.
I know what you mean. I think I struggle with some of these concepts because I just can't comprehend what it's like for a mentally healthy person. I can't comprehend what a continuous sense of self would feel like. It's not something I've ever had.
I find it so hard to see what parts of me are regarded as "normal" or not. When that's all you've never known, you assume it is the norm for everyone. You don't even question it, it's just part of you.
Posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 3:51:13
In reply to Re: Good to see you » vwoolf, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 13:58:15
You know Sunny, I've spent the last couple of hours thinking about what you wrote. I get really angry when people tell me to take care of myself. It feels as if they are trying to minimise all my hurt, and "make it better" with some trite formula. I have even shouted at my T when she suggests a massage. She keeps telling me to try and understand why I am getting so cross about this, but until now I have refused to examine my motives. But strangely your post, together with a book I found yesterday, seem to be penetrating the fog somehow, although I don't promise I'm actually going to manage to do anything about myself.
The book is "The Inner World of Trauma" by Donald Kalsched. I have only just begun reading it, but on the first page he says:
"I have had a number of individuals in analysis who, after an initial period of growth and improvement, reached a kind of plateau where they seemed to stagnate in therapy and, instead of getting better as a result of the treatment, seemed instead to get stuck in a "repetition compulsion" of earlier behaviours, which left them feeling defeated and hopeless. These were individuals who had suffered traumatic experiences in childhood which had overwhlemed their often unusual sensitivities and driven them inward. Often, the interior worlds into which they retreated were childlike worlds, rich in fantasy but with a very wistful, melancholic cast. In this museum-like "sanctuary of innocence" these patients clung to a remnant of their childhood experience which had been magical and sustaining at one time, but which did not grow along with the rest of them. Although they had come to therapy out of need, they did not really want to grow or change in ways that would truly satisfy that need. To be more precise, one part of them wanted to change and a stronger part resisted this change. They were divided within themselves."That feels very much like me. It's as if I am protecting the only sense of myself that I have. To try and "care" for myself in the way everyone suggests, seems like a real betrayal of this incredibly intimate, personal me which is separate from and different to everyone else, even though it is sad and melancholy and angry and thinks in terms of pain and blood and sex and death. If I give this up, I will no longer have any "me" left. I can't do that.
Sorry, Maybe this is too deep for here, but it has helped me to think and write about this. I will definitely take this to my T. I don't know how she will resolve this, but it clearly is at the bottom of a whole lot of things.
Thanks so much for keeping after me. I probably will get there in the end - I'm just a bit dumb and stubborn.
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 9:30:37
In reply to Funny need to protect me » sunny10, posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 3:51:13
we all are divided within ourselves, vwoolf.
And we all have learned to "manage" (in our own ways) the way we "exist" with the devil we already know. And we are afraid that if we change the way we do things, that we may have to deal with a devil we DON'T know.
I 'managed' the changes because I took advantage of the fact that I was in the care of a pdoc and T and realized that they would help me with any new devils that cropped up along the way.
I certainly didn't do it all by myself. I really had to make sure that my supports were in place before I took steps to change. I was scared sh*tless.
By no means at all did I mean to sound that it was easy. Gosh, I'm so sorry...
I guess I wanted to sound very positive for you- to give you a small bit of hope without adding the "scary sounding bits".
I humbly apologize if I worded things to make you feel put down in any way. There is NOTHING dumb about you...maybe a bit stubborn, but aren't we all??? That's just the parts of us that are resistant to change talking, anyway... At least for me!
It is very scary, but if you want to take very tiny steps at a time, we will be another support here at babble for you. (okay- this last paragraph?! Probably what I should have said without all the other posts and words....)
-sunny10
This is the end of the thread.
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