Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 427284

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Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND

Posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

Hi guys, it's been a long time since I've been on and i've come to some realisations in this time.
i've finally admitted to myself and my husband that i abused 2 children on two different occasions when i was a child--once a 5 y/o girl when i was 12 and a 3 y/o boy when i was 13.
I'm female, and i've never had any desire to molest children since then and i'm in my mid 30s.
i'm tearing myself up over what i did, and i'm at the point of being suicidal because i can't stand the thought of having ruined anyone's life.
i have no memories of being abused, so why did i do it? if i wasn't abused prior to those incidents, then that means i had no reason for abusing those kids other than the fact that i'm evil. and what did i start? did they go on to do the same thing, and so on?

i exhibit all signs of having been abused in my life--depression, self-mutilation, attempts at suicide, anxiety, problems in relationships (spec. i do not want to have sex with my husband, but would rather have sex with strangers who treat me poorly).my problem is i can't say i WAS abused because i don't remember it.
i did disappear when i was 5 for a day (about 15 hours or so) but i have no memory of what happened. my doc says since i don't remember every day of my life from when i was five, then why should i be upset if i don't remember that one? i think that's a bit of bull.

i have a wonderful husband who is patient and kind but he has a hard time accepting my behaviour.
i have two wonderful girls who i have never touched in any way inapproprite, and i have never even entertained the thought of doing so.
I have an enormous fear of them being abused, so much that i have panic attacks if i leave them with a trusted babysitter.

I need help and live in a country where it isn't readily available, and the language barrier is such that i have a hard time putting my thoughts into words.
I currently see a psych and take the equivalent of 20 mg of paxil a day, and it helps control my rages. without it i am a horrible, angry person.
my doc isn't what i would call helpful with my search for a therapist, with whom i can talk about my past. he believes the past is the past, let it lie.
i've tried for years and i'm dying inside.
i need help.
please, if anyone can direct me, please write.
i don't know what else to do.
i can't stop crying.
i don't know how to go on.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz

Posted by cubic_me on December 10, 2004, at 15:57:48

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

Hi, I don't really have anything helpful to say, but you sound so alone, and I wanted to let you know that here you are not alone, even if you haven't been here for a while.

It certainly sounds like therapy would be really useful for you at the moment - is there any way you can get some in your language, maybe independently of your psychiatrist? I understand how hard it is to have a psychiatrist who isn't helpful, I've had several.

cubic x

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz

Posted by smokeymadison on December 10, 2004, at 18:52:10

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

hey,
i am speaking as someone who was molested by a 13 year old neighborboy when i was 8. The experience did some damage, but as a one-time event, i have been able to deal with it and move on. what i am trying to say is that you most likely did not ruin those kids lives or cause damage that can't be undone. there were so many other factors in my life at work in how i have turned out.

i am so sorry that you can't put this behind you. you need some closure. i too have scrutinized all my past memories for more memories of abuse. i have considered hypnosis. maybe it is something you might want to look into? i don't have any personal experience with it, but i have heard that it can be helpful if you have to know. on the other hand, it is possible to leave your past unknown and to work on the here and now.

i know that often, when you look at the history of abusers, you find abuse, but not very many abused kids turn out to be abusers themselves. i wouldn't worry so much that those kids you abused have abused others. the possibility exists, but is not that great.

i don't believe that it is possible to be evil. people are neither good nor bad. it is peoples' actions that are harmful or helpful. you may never fully understand why you did what you did, and that is all right. please know that you do have the right to be at peace with yourself. beating yourself up over what you did so many years ago only hurts you and those you love. if you don't love or accept yourself, it is impossible to love others unconditionally.

that boy who abused me--i forgave him a long time ago. and i truly hope that he has forgiven himself. i wish you all the best. i suggest that you keep trying to find a good therapist--because they are out there--and work through this.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz

Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 19:42:16

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

Hi I think it is great that you have such self control now and maybe you need a new therapist to put a new slant on things and medical doctor doesnt have the time or knowledge that a therpist does. I am sorry you are hurting. If I read correcly you were a child yourself when you abused those kids and well thats kid stuff ...still see a new T and maybe they will change meds to help you more? We are always here to talk to

Hugs

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND

Posted by Daisym on December 10, 2004, at 20:02:57

In reply to Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 19:42:16

It seems really important that you try to figure out why you did what you did and at some point forgive yourself. If you don't have access to a therapist, how about a clergy person? Your awareness and regret makes me think you will keep yourself from doing it again. But your anger and rage is cause for concern. I know you say it is turned on to yourself, but as your children grow beyond your protection and hit the age where you did what you did, you might see it turn outward.

There are no easy answers here. I wish you were in a place to get more help for yourself. The only other thing I can think of is e-therapy. Some people have good experiences with this. It might be worth a try.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND

Posted by anastasia56 on December 10, 2004, at 23:33:08

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

as Fallen mentioned in a previous post, you were only a child yourself. Children experiment and whatever you did probably felt good at the time. That is all. At that age you have no concept that what you are doing could be considered abuse...you didn't even know what abuse was back then. You need to forgive yourself just as the two involved have probably forgiven you...everyone needs to in order to move on.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND

Posted by notaliseliz on December 11, 2004, at 2:49:48

In reply to Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by anastasia56 on December 10, 2004, at 23:33:08

Thank you everyone for what you have to say.
I'm printing your responsed so I can read them often, as they will help me understand that I am not alone in the world.
I have been thinking about seeing a hypnotist to remember that day I disappeared, but I don't know if it is worth it in the sense that would it cause more problems? Or would I be able to have something concrete to deal with?
I've asked my family for their takes on it and it goes like this:
sister, 10 years older--had no idea it happened
sister, 9 years older--thinks I set a series of arson fires in the neighborhood (weird!)
brother, 1 year older--remembers i was gone, but doesn't know why
mom---said she asked me at the time and i wouldn't answer so she never asked again
dad---same as mom

i read something about going to meet your inner child as the adult you are now and being a friend to that child you were, taking the child by the hand. it's a hard concept but i think i really need to do it.
obviously i needed someone to let me know i was worth something.

those of you who said i was just a child, well, true, but i'd think this would be more common with younger children who are exploring , i.e. playing doctor, and not someone in their preteens. i don't know what my motives were, other than maybe searching for control?

anyway, thank you again so much. i hope to find some guidance here.

 

Daisy..

Posted by notaliseliz on December 11, 2004, at 2:51:41

In reply to Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Daisym on December 10, 2004, at 20:02:57

> It seems really important that you try to figure out why you did what you did and at some point forgive yourself. If you don't have access to a therapist, how about a clergy person? Your awareness and regret makes me think you will keep yourself from doing it again. But your anger and rage is cause for concern. I know you say it is turned on to yourself, but as your children grow beyond your protection and hit the age where you did what you did, you might see it turn outward.
>
> There are no easy answers here. I wish you were in a place to get more help for yourself. The only other thing I can think of is e-therapy. Some people have good experiences with this. It might be worth a try.
>


I have looked on the net about e-therapy. it is a new concept for me that i am very open to. if you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.
i discussed it with my husband yesterday and he seems to think it is an option, too.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz

Posted by Toph on December 11, 2004, at 7:50:37

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

Notaliseliz, I echo what others have said, including the normalization of childhood sexual experimentation, the "I'll show you mine, if I can see yours" stuff. A child by definition is incapable by definition of legally abusing someone due to their incompetence status, but that, of course does not relieve them of doing something abusive to someone else. Abuse involves harmful coersion, power and control. That you have so much guilt and self-loathing associated with these two events suggests to me that what you did go beyond play into abuse of unwilling participants. It would be important to understand this conduct even if abberrant from who you have become today. Your angst about it is a healthy sign.

If I read your post well, I think you expressed some concerns that this is a symptom of some surpressed memory of traumas inflicted on you or other traumatic behavior you may have subjected upon others. While this theory is controversial, especially after the discovery that some therapist were inducing somehow these memories in their patients, I think the concept makes intuitive sense to me that you could have memories that are so abbhorant to you that your mind will not let you think about them, so then you begin to manifest this mental conflict of imprisoned memories symtomatically.

Another thing to consider is the notion of disassociation. I am no expert on this stuff, but in my work as a child protection worker there were basically two kinds of abusers I delt with. The abuser who harmed another child because of learned behavior having grown up in a culture (family, society) of abuse and exploitation of children, and an abuser who harms another person pathologically, without remorse,and/or in a disassociative state where they flip into some other personality, or most dangerous of all, are those who have the mental capacity to dehumanize others - those lacking somehow the ability to empathically feel others suffering.

I am not suggesting that you have any of this to worry about. You are interested in working this out. Be careful if there is something to discover inside that you have protected yourself from for so long. You must open doors slowly with someone whom you trust by your side. I have a sense that you are a moral, caring individual who will be more at peace with yourself some day.
-Toph

 

Definition of a child

Posted by Daisym on December 11, 2004, at 17:50:31

In reply to Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz, posted by Toph on December 11, 2004, at 7:50:37

I need to post this but I'm not doing to make anyone feel bad, I swear.

Children typically know right from wrong by age 5, can make judgements about right from wrong by age 8 and certainly know if they are forcing someone to do something by age 12. There is a level of body part curiosity that exists among children but the age here is 6 or 7 or younger. Sexual curiosity comes into play around 10/11 years old but children typically know what is appropriate and what isn't by this age. Certainly by 13 years old, a young person can make a judgement about this.

As someone who was being abused at this age, I just felt a need to not let this be dismissed as "children" at play. Kids don't play like this. They might mutually explore, etc. But they are typically very aware of what they are doing and keep it private.

 

Re: Definition of a child » Daisym

Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2004, at 18:16:07

In reply to Definition of a child, posted by Daisym on December 11, 2004, at 17:50:31

It's true Daisy I want to be behind you in saying that To dismiss any 13 year olds sexual acts with a young child as normal kid stuff is not acceptable. Thats a junior high student and a child who has just barely learned to walk!
Notaliseliz that was really a seperate post from you altogether. I know you've acknowledged the possible ramifications of what you did and I hope you can forgive yourself, thirteen is certainly young enough to make forgiveable errors in judgement, and there must have been something terribly wrong going on in your young life which led you to such behaviour, you were still a child. I hope you can forgive yourself.

 

Sorry, that post sounded so harsh. ICK

Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2004, at 18:23:43

In reply to Re: Definition of a child » Daisym, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2004, at 18:16:07

the subject is a little sensitive for me.

Gabbit*ch

 

Re: Definition of a child » Daisym

Posted by Toph on December 12, 2004, at 10:49:06

In reply to Definition of a child, posted by Daisym on December 11, 2004, at 17:50:31

Daisy and Gabbi if I dismissed sexual abuse of children anywhere in my post I am sorry. I am not always clear in my thinking or expression. I may also have misrepresented others' posts when I spoke of normalizing sexual experimentation in children. It is important not to shame children for their sexuality in much the same way as it is important to teach them that sex must be mutually consentual, for example. Two year olds who are chastized for touching themselves or engaging in sexual play can have difficult conflict about their sexuality at adolescence and in their adult relationships. Some could characterize the imposition of stuanchly puritanical attitudes about sexuality in children as a form of child abuse. I thought I focused in my post on my experience with perpetrators of sexual abuse, including other children, something I would never normalize and certainly not dismiss. If it sounded like a did, I hope I clarified myself.
-Toph

 

Re: Definition of a child » Toph

Posted by Gabbix2 on December 12, 2004, at 11:05:31

In reply to Re: Definition of a child » Daisym, posted by Toph on December 12, 2004, at 10:49:06

No Toph, it wasn't your thoughtful post to which I was referring anyway. There were two posts previous to yours which said something like "Children experiment and whatever you did probably felt good at the time" and it was "kid stuff"
That's what I was referring to. Children of equal age playing doctor is kid stuff, a preteen/teenager "experimenting" with a child 10 years younger is a more serious issue.

 

Re: Definition of a child

Posted by Notaliseliz on December 12, 2004, at 11:24:36

In reply to Re: Definition of a child » Toph, posted by Gabbix2 on December 12, 2004, at 11:05:31

well i definitely do not know what to think about myself now.
i've had lots of good input, but a lot of conflicting sounding stuff and the agression i hear from some makes me feel even lower than i did before

i'm not looking here for forgiveness from you all, just need guidance as to where to turn for help

i appreciate when i hear someone say it wasn't my "fault" because i was messed up or whatever, but if i DON'T BELIEVE that myself then i need more than kindness right now, i need direction.

i asked daisy about more info on e-therapy, if anyone else has any ideas about it please let me know.

i'll be off-line for a bit from tomorrow so if you have any direct comments or questions and i don't answer right away, i'll be back.

 

no agression here, honest! » Notaliseliz

Posted by Gabbix2 on December 12, 2004, at 12:52:13

In reply to Re: Definition of a child, posted by Notaliseliz on December 12, 2004, at 11:24:36

I'm sorry Notaliseliz I did a terrible job of trying to put myself in your shoes. Of course you took those comments personally, and truly they were not personal. I was just saying that a 13 and 3 year old have a different dynamic in sexual contact than two 4 year olds would, it is more serious. You already knew that. Everything I said before I believe, you were still a child, obviously something was going on that would make you act out in that way, and you deserve to be forgiven and to forgive yourself. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
I'm so sorry that came across any other way.

 

This is really hard

Posted by daisym on December 12, 2004, at 15:58:18

In reply to no agression here, honest! » Notaliseliz, posted by Gabbix2 on December 12, 2004, at 12:52:13

I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm sure my experiences bias my thinking. I did try to put a disclaimer before my comments that they were not directed at any one person. So it wasn't meant to be aggressive. Just a caution to not be too quick to dismiss this stuff as "child's play." As you said yourself, sometime a person needs help more than kindness, though I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

I have often tried to figure out why these things happen. It would be my guess that most of us who were abused want answers to the question "why?" I worked up the courage a while ago to ask my therapist if he had ever treated an abuser, or would he? He was very thoughtful in his answer. He said that most of the time you establish a relationship with a client and then stuff comes out. So to say that he wouldn't treat a person who had done this would send up abandonment flags for me. (What if I told him something really bad and he dumped ME?) But to say he would might make me wonder "how could he after witnessing all of my pain?" After much exploration of the subject, we ultimately figured out that I was asking if my dad could have received treatment and was now "cured". I think I was trying to figure out how I could, or why I, still love him and have a relationship with him. We've worked on this a lot.

I'm sorry for your pain and I certainly am not trying to add too it. I think it is good that you are trying to get help for yourself and recognize that there were most likely underlying motivating factors. I've never been a big fan of beating oneself up over things that happened way in the past that you stopped doing and haven't done since. But this is really complicated stuff. And it certainly isn't for me to judge you or your actions.

Ultimately, I think forgiveness must come from who ever was hurt, yourself and your God, if you believe in one. Living a productive, healthy life, loving your children, etc. are all admirable things. Life is, after all, about balancing our mistakes with our successes.

Good luck. I don't know much about e-therapy, except that it exists. I think there is a link from here to a site that offers it. I hope you find the help you seek.

 

Re: Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND » Notaliseliz

Posted by littleone on December 12, 2004, at 19:51:32

In reply to Child abuse=abuser? PLEASE RESPOND, posted by Notaliseliz on December 10, 2004, at 13:37:08

> my doc isn't what i would call helpful with my search for a therapist, with whom i can talk about my past. he believes the past is the past, let it lie.

I disagree with this comment from your doc. Often the past won't just lie down quiet and go away until your issues have been addressed.

Although I certainly can't help on your search for a T, I would highly recommend that you keep trying. I do know that they help both the abusers and the abused.


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