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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 9:52:09
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:18:33
I'm reasonably sure my therapist is resigned to being stuck with me for life. :) He bore a remarkable resemblence to a deer in the headlights when he first realized it, and asked some silly questions about what I could possibly do about it if he terminated me (nothing obviously, I'm not a stalker). But now that he realizes that he can always retire or move and I won't camp out on his front door or tie him up like Kathy Bates' character in that movie, I think he is comfortable with maintaining a therapeutic relationship as long as he is a therapist.
We have been talking about or around this subject for a few months, I think. It wasn't a sudden thing. I think he's happy about it. :( When I look at it as calmly as possible, I realize he's happy because he thinks it means good things for me and my progress. When I'm not being calm, I think he's happy to get rid of me. :( He's smart enough to realize what he was doing and wiped the enthusiastic grin off his face when I saw it, without my having to say anything. But I saw it. :(
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:04:44
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 8:27:46
> Dinah,
> Are you mad at yourself or mad at your T for "letting you go" a bit?Definitely a bit of both. I think he sees this as a sign of growth, and is happy about it. :(
> Do you feel resentful perhaps because there is a sense of being deprived? I admit I'm a little confused about what you are feeling right now.
Absolutely I feel resentful about being deprived. It's the right and sensible thing to do, but I don't necessarily *like* it. But if I waited until I liked it, I'd never do it.
One thing I *detest* about my emotional side not being hidden is that I used to be able to throw huge temper tantrums about sensible decisions made by my rational self. Threaten to self injure, just really get furious and destructive. Now that my emotions are more engaged in my life, my heartless and cruel (admitted hyperbole here) rational self often makes sure that I'm in joint agreement about these decisions. So then I can't blame and act very badly. I have to "be responsible" (insert mocking sing song tone) and "do the right thing". And I very much resent being put in that situation. (wry smile)
I understand how odd the above paragraph sounds, and I hope it doesn't make anyone uncomfortable, but it's a fairly accurate depiction of my internal life. Kind of like a kid who is secretly happy to be able to blame Mom and stomp off to their room for not being able to go to that keg party after the prom, having Mom suddenly say "It's up to you whether or not you go to the keg party." Sigh.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:05:21
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 8:27:46
Posted by DaisyM on September 2, 2004, at 10:11:14
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 8:27:46
Dinah,
when I got up this morning, I was still trying to explain to Lucy in my head what I meant about my therapist "insisting" and why that felt OK. Your post helped me realize more what it is about.
It must be awful hard to hear your Therapist agree with the decision to cut back even when part of you knows it is over all the right thing. And he does still care about you, he doesn't care less, just because you go less.
In the decisions I've made for myself over my life, I have almost always done the "right thing." Even if it wasn't what I really wanted... I have a list a mile long. And usually it is the right thing for everyone else. And for most of my life I did the right thing without being told and usually without guidance. And without validation that it was the right thing. So in therapy, I've asked my therapist to advocate for the right things FOR ME, even when I'm going the other way because I think I should do what's best for everyone else. And I want guidance and validation around some decisions. We even went through this whole thing about "needing" therapy vs. "wanting" therapy. He kept asking, "what is wrong with "just" wanting therapy? It is OK to want something just for yourself." I still feel selfish about it at times.
I think you are getting those things from your therapist. Guidance and validation. Letting go of something, even partially, that is really special is bittersweet. I called it "tender grief".
Give yourself a break. You are bound to feel conflicted for a while. And if it isn't working, things can go back to the way they were. Even if you just want to.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 10:16:04
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:04:44
great description!
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:05:13
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision, posted by DaisyM on September 2, 2004, at 10:11:14
Yes, you're absolutely right. It's not a permanent decision. I might have trouble with going just because I want to, though. I just hope I don't start acting out so that I have a reason to *need* to go. It's something I can see myself doing, to my shame.
I think part of it is that I don't think of it as letting something go partially. I think of it as letting one thing go completely and substituting something else instead. Twice a week therapy is so very different from once a week therapy. I'm not sure the difference can be explained to those who haven't done both, but I'll bet you know what I'm talking about. It's almost like apples and oranges. Or like having a next door neighbor move across town and meeting once a week for lunch. It's just not the same thing as having a good friend as a next door neighbor.
I don't want to give that up. But not wanting to really isn't enough at this stage in my therapy. :(
Posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:45:08
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:04:44
I understand completely about the joint agreement between your rational and emotional sides. It's hard to be grown up. Luckily, I'm still in the tantrum phase.
One time adult and CEO Aphrodite in her best executive and critical manner told my T that I did not need him and was quitting. He said, "I empower you to take good care of yourself. Call me if you need me." Then, I had a complete tantrum. It was quite a nasty trick on his part to get me to say what I really wanted. I felt like I was 4 years old trying to play grown-up.
I'm very interested in how this progresses. Let us know what happens.
Posted by shortelise on September 2, 2004, at 13:07:54
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling too good about my decision, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 0:26:22
Dinah, "drat him"?
I am so sorry, but here I am laughing again, but more because if he is glad you are talking about seeing him less often, it means he does have your best interest at heart, that he sees the progress you have made and feels you are ready to see him less. If he seemed "awfully happy" about it, to me it means that you are going in the right direction.
OMG, this must mean that you are better than you were! This must mean that you have made some progress!
This must mean that you may one day actually be capable of living your life fully and happily (or as happily as any human can)!
Dinah, ok, I am projecting a little, but I am so glad for you.
I am trying to imagine what life will be like without my psychiatrist. I feel so stupid! Here I am, a 48 year old woman, fully grown, married, have a house, two cars, a cat and a career. And I am wondering what I will do without my little balding friend whom I see once every two weeks.
What is it? Why is this attachment so very powerful? It's amazing. A little bit of empathy, lots of sympathy, a **LOT** of kindness, and Whammo!
He tells me that he can't "keep" me (my term not his) because it's not good for me, That it would be counterproductive, that the point of therapy is not to need it anymore.
Sorry Dinah, I could go on and on, but you write what I feel! Thank you so much.
ShortE
Posted by tryingtobewise on September 2, 2004, at 16:13:11
In reply to Well, I think I'm going to do it, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 11:32:39
Dinah - maybe it is one of those things that you dread before it happens, but then once it is underway it isn't so bad. I do that to myself a lot. Dread something, then once I'm in the middle of it, find it is actually ok.
And, you can always go back to 2 days a week if it doesn't work out.
:)
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
In reply to Re: Well, I think I'm going to do it, posted by tryingtobewise on September 2, 2004, at 16:13:11
By the time I got to therapy today, my anger and resentment had skyrocketed to the point that I was as sullen and truculent as a teenager.
I suppose faced with that, it was reasonable for my therapist to want to discuss my decision.
He actually surprised me. I had expected him to say that it was, of course, my decision. Not with his arms folded. When he says that with his arms folded, it means he disagrees but that he d*mn well isn't going to invest himself personally in a *client's* decisions. But smiling. When he says that smiling, it means that he approves but isn't stupid enough to say so.
But he didn't tell me that at all. It turned into a discussion of the nature of therapy, and what therapy meant to me, and how twice a week therapy was different than once a week therapy, and the nature of the therapeutic relationship, and whether you had to aim for quitting therapy.
It was really very interesting, and in at least one case, eye opening. It seems that he *does* have a treatment plan for me. His conception of my case is that I do best with the intense support of twice a week therapy. And he thinks my thinking I should reduce to once a week is the thinking of someone adequately medicated who feels fine that they can reduce or eliminate their meds. He's not saying I shouldn't try it, or that it won't succeed. He's just saying that he noticed a big difference when we went from once to twice a week therapy.
He also understood and agreed that twice a week therapy is really a different experience than once a week therapy. More continuity, more intensity. A totally different feel to it. Not just once a week therapy two times. He wonders if we could taper to three times in two weeks rather than once a week, to see if we could keep the best qualities of more frequent therapy while trying out less contact.
We found that we were in agreement on the nature of the therapeutic relationship. That it's different, but no less real and no less valuable than other sorts. That all relationships have rules and boundaries. But the rules and boundaries of therapy are just different. And he understands that given my childhood history of being the ersatz family counselor, I have a special respect for the role and the relationship as a valuable entity that one doesn't need to try to outgrow.
And it turned out to be an oddly enjoyable session, too. Despite all the anger and emotions. He spent a fair portion of the session laughing at certain aspects of the World According to Dinah, and I always like to be laughed at in a fond sort of way. It reminds me of my father in his better moods.
Posted by shortelise on September 3, 2004, at 12:20:09
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
Dinah, I so like your therapist.
Thanks very much for what you write. It helps me.
I just invented a joke: what do you call an angry psychiatrist? A therapissed.
(I didn't say it was a good joke)ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 13:22:57
In reply to Re: To be continued... » Dinah, posted by shortelise on September 3, 2004, at 12:20:09
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 13:24:25
In reply to Re: To be continued... » Dinah, posted by shortelise on September 3, 2004, at 12:20:09
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 13:28:19
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
Wow, that sounds like a great session. I can tell from your posts that you and your T know each other very well. That must be a good and safe feeling. It sounds as if your T thought that maybe you were concerned about "forever therapy" and that you *should* (hate that word) be headed for termination at some point? Makes sense then, how the discussion went, if that is true. At any rate, the idea of 3 times in 2 weeks makes sense for a trial. But so does staying at 2 times a week, if it is so beneficial to you.
Thanks for letting us know how it went.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on September 3, 2004, at 13:34:15
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
Wow, he's good.
I also think it's wonderful that after all this time, he can still surprise you. Even with all of your wonderful analytical skill, you don't have him figured out completely, and that's a good thing:)
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 14:21:31
In reply to Re: To be continued... » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 13:28:19
It kind of veered into the direction of discussing whether it was ok to want forever therapy at times, although the primary focus was reducing the number of sessions. It was actually a pretty broadranging session. That's why no decisions were made. I looked up and noticed we were out of time, but clearly still mid-discussion. So the discussion was continued until next time. At that point maybe we'll figure the best course of action.
It was a great session. It's not that we never talk about these things, but this was the most focused discussion we've ever had about the sort of stuff we talk about all the time here on the board. Not dependence precisely, but whether we should start therapy with the intent of leaving it. How "real" the therapeutic relationship is. Just the discussion of the difference between once and twice a week therapy was interesting. I mean, I've thought about these things, and we've talked about them here. But he was pretty open today about his views. And not in that cagey way that therapists often have.
I like him on Fridays. He seems more relaxed and tuned into the session. It must be a light day for him.
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 14:31:13
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Aphrodite on September 3, 2004, at 13:34:15
Well, I suspect some of it was tactical. Although, yes, he can be very good. And he can still surprise me. But I had left a message for him this week that included "I know you weren't trying to get rid of me last session." which I guess even the dullest therapist would realize meant the exact opposite.
And I walked into the office, threw myself onto the couch, crossed my arms, and sat with a scowl worthy of Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) at his worst. I'm guessing those might be little clues to a reasonably perceptive therapist that it might be wise to explore feelings before agreeing, disagreeing, or saying anything meaningful at all. :)
When I look back on it, it was sort of funny. I was at my most totally unreasonable and contrary. I'm glad he was able to find gentle humor in it.
We also managed to discuss how this reaction was an improvement (believe it or not) from my previous behaviors. :P
Posted by fallsfall on September 3, 2004, at 16:08:58
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
Your post made me smile.
It's wonderful when you can talk about things that really matter. It's wonderful when you can really understand each other. It's wonderful when you can work together towards the same goal.
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 16:46:04
In reply to Re: To be continued... » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on September 3, 2004, at 16:08:58
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2004, at 13:56:31
In reply to Re: To be continued... » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 14:21:31
Dinah,
Your post made me wonder if we would have more of these kinds of sessions if we were more honest with how we feel and think about them...like we are here on the board. But I was surprised to see that you classified this as a more direct discussion of some of this, I feel like I spend a lot of time in therapy talking about the relationship, how real it is and what my concerns are. Last Thursday I told him again I didn't want to need therapy because I was ending therapy. He totally understood that but told me again that he most likely would outlast me...which is comforting.
I'm starting to give up the idea that the relationship is governed by a hour-glass. That he has a private plan of how long all this should take. And even if we ever get "done" with my "issues" then I can still lean on him for support.
I think your therapist is really great. :)
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 14:49:52
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by daisym on September 4, 2004, at 13:56:31
> Dinah,
>
> Your post made me wonder if we would have more of these kinds of sessions if we were more honest with how we feel and think about them...like we are here on the board. But I was surprised to see that you classified this as a more direct discussion of some of this...Come to think of it, I am surprised I said that too. We talk about relationship a lot. Perhaps we sometimes talk around it a bit, or fill it full of caveats. Or maybe it was that he was more direct in his answers, allowing a more person to person discussion rather than a therapy discussion. More like we discuss it here, as fellow clients, than as he usually discusses it therapist to client.
>
> I'm starting to give up the idea that the relationship is governed by a hour-glass. That he has a private plan of how long all this should take. And even if we ever get "done" with my "issues" then I can still lean on him for support.My therapist definitely believes that. But he thinks it's a necessary component of my mental health care.
>
> I think your therapist is really great. :)
>
>
Me too. (Most of the time.) But I'd still like a fling with yours.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 6, 2004, at 11:06:26
In reply to Re: To be continued..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 11:44:05
I'm really glad that you had such a productive session, and that you're feeling better about the situation. Good work!
Be well.
-SV
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2004, at 13:25:24
In reply to Re: To be continued... » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 14:49:52
Today's session was more pragmatic. In the end he said he believed I was too depressed to make a clear decision right now. And we talked about how difficult I make it for him. That on the one hand, he didn't feel like he could be as honest as he would like to be that it wasn't a good idea, because my rational side would think all he was interested in was the money and would harp on and on about that. While my emotional side needed a more forceful statement from him that I was depressed, he cared that I was depressed, and that he didn't want to see me go away and hide because I was depressed.
He also was talking a lot about antidepressants. But that opens an entirely new can of worms. If the me that has consciousness and interacts with the world say 85-95% of the time isn't depressed, what use are antidepressants. The only time I've taken AD's is when all of me is depressed and I'm in enough pain often enough to justify the pain that comes from the side effects. You can't aim the drugs for one ego state and avoid the other. Or to put it another, possibly more palatable way, my depression is buried pretty deep below the surface, doesn't really interfere with my day to day activities, and AD's would interfere with my day to day activities more than the depression does.
And I hate AD's.
Posted by Skittles on September 7, 2004, at 14:45:42
In reply to Re: Continued, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2004, at 13:25:24
If you don't mind getting into it, what's it like for you to be on ADs? I'm pretty sure my T is going to bring them up soon, maybe even tomorrow (when I tell her I haven't had an appetite - I've lost 8 lbs in the last week, though I probably won't tell her *that* much), and I'm scared of them. Never been on them before, but may people seems to bad experiences with them. I've never felt comfortable asking anyone *why* before.
I am sorry you are having a difficult time. I wish I could make it better for you. I haven't been around here long, but I always look forward to your posts. There is something about your style and candor that makes me smile. Everyday, there is some little tidbit from you that brings a little joy to my day - thank you.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2004, at 15:58:47
In reply to Re: Continued » Dinah, posted by Skittles on September 7, 2004, at 14:45:42
Thank you Skittles. That was lovely to hear. :)
Antidepressants... Hmmm... I suppose we're risking being redirected to the meds board here but here goes. I can't take certain types of antidepressants at all - the ones that contain norepinephrine make me unpleasantly hypomanic. But lots of people get benefit from them.
I was on the SSRI Luvox for four years. At the beginning it was a wise choice, and in similar circumstances I'd do it again. I was suffering pretty severe postpartum depression, and shortly after starting the Luvox I felt relief from constant feelings of overstimulation and weepiness for the first time since my hormones had gone wacky. I probably needed a mood stabilizer with it, though, and instead my pdoc kept raising the Luvox dose. My current pdoc would make sure that didn't happen. I felt ok, but not stellar on the Luvox. A fair amount of apathy, a lot stupid, no orgasms for four years. On the plus side, it helped control my OCD and depression enough to work in therapy and I'm not sure I would have progressed in therapy without it.
I probably wouldn't be as reluctant to go on it again if it weren't so darned unpleasant to withdraw from it. It's doable, but it's hard work.
In short (if it's not too late), if I needed it, I'd do it. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage anyone else from taking it. But I don't think I need it enough to justify it. I'm getting along fine, and my depression isn't really interfering with my functioning.
This is the end of the thread.
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