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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
My T says this is a gift you give yourself. This has been the hardest concept for me to grasp since I have been in therapy a little over a year now. I still cannot fully grasp this concept. I seem to still prefer to mercilessly berate myself rather than show myself some compassion, compassion I show to others but apparently don't think I deserve.
Can Unconditional Self Acceptance even be attained? If you have it, how on earth did you get it?
Posted by partlycloudy on September 3, 2004, at 15:14:31
In reply to Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 3, 2004, at 15:58:41
In reply to Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
> My T says this is a gift you give yourself. This has been the hardest concept for me to grasp since I have been in therapy a little over a year now. I still cannot fully grasp this concept. I seem to still prefer to mercilessly berate myself rather than show myself some compassion, compassion I show to others but apparently don't think I deserve.
>
> Can Unconditional Self Acceptance even be attained? If you have it, how on earth did you get it?Well, not perfectly unconditional, but....
I think it can come from asking yourself the right questions, instead of the wrong ones. For example, "Did I do my best?" is quite a different question than is, "Did I do that perfectly?" Another one might be, "Did I apologize for hurting her feelings?" rather than, "Didn't I make a total fool of myself?" Underlying the questions themselves are assumptions. Those assumptions are what permit you to beat yourself unmercifully, or to congratulate yourself for a fine effort.
I'm really fried from the sun, so I need to go lie down.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 16:25:34
In reply to Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
I've never believed in *unconditional* self acceptance, or *unconditional* other acceptance either. But if you take the *unconditional* out of it, I have a few ideas, on different levels.
I think that you can have a view or yourself that doesn't depend on your latest success or failure, or even longstanding strengths and weaknesses. You can accept yourself (or someone else for that matter) just as you are, and view your mistakes or triumphs as events separate from who you are at your core. You can decide whether or not you want to make the same choice next time, or if you can see areas where your performance could be improved, without thinking that you are a hopeless screwup or a worthless human being. And you'd accept your successes the same way, without them influencing your overall view of yourself. What people say about you wouldn't influence you as much, because you know who you are. I'm thinking this would be a very good thing, if it was based on a realistic self-assessment. Obviously, if a person constantly make the decision to hurt others, for example, and considers himself a kind empathetic person, a little adjustment in his self concept might be in order. But if you really are a kind and empathetic person, and make the occasional hurtful choice, you can view the choice as something you might need to change, but not as an indictment of your entire being. I think my therapist calls this ego strength.
The other level is sort of spiritual. In that every man, woman, child, dog, cat, butterfly (I'm working on roaches and ants) has intrinsic value just in *being* and without having to do anything to justify it. Every being deserves the best the world has to offer it. Every infant deserves love and care, and that really doesn't change as you get older. We deserve people in our lives that treat us well. We deserve better than to be belittled or verbally abused. That view doesn't excuse bad behavior. But even the most vile wicked wretch as ever existed can at some point in their life stop and say "I deserve to expect better of myself than this. I can't change the past, but from this point forward, I can begin to live up to the potential that I was born to because, gosh darn it, I am a worthwhile being."
Or, I suppose, you can accept yourself unconditionally as you are while still seeing room for change. (the cornerstone of DBT)
That's as close as I can come to *unconditional self acceptance*. Because I'm not even sure *unconditional self acceptance* without an self-expectations would be a good thing for people to have.
Posted by Susan47 on September 3, 2004, at 18:05:26
In reply to Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
I don't know how this is going to sound; eek. Okay here goes. I've found that when my motivations are pure I can accept myself lovingly regardless of the outcome.
That works *most* of the time.
Posted by Susan47 on September 3, 2004, at 18:06:51
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self Acceptance » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Susan47 on September 3, 2004, at 18:05:26
I mean *pure* as in kind, thoughtful, considerate, and sometimes simply wanting to get to the truth, no matter what it may be. Thx.
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on September 3, 2004, at 23:52:43
In reply to Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 3, 2004, at 14:25:29
What I think helps is seeing yourself as a child. Talk to yourself as you would an innocent child. You don't blame and put down an innocent child. Pretend for a moment that you have a four y/o in front of you when you speak to yourself. When mistakes occurs say, "You didn't fail. You only learned that this wasn't the way it worked, so try again." Self talk is the key to self acceptance. I don't know if anyone has complete unconditional self-acceptance. But, when things get really rough, instead of saying to yourself, "Nothing works for me". Say this instead, "I am having a difficult time right now." This is a process of unlearning what you may have been taught as a child and practiced as an adult. This isn't going to be an over night process. It is a daily practice to be done the rest of your life. That's my feelings.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 4, 2004, at 9:53:49
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Dinah on September 3, 2004, at 16:25:34
Dinah, I like your concept of every baby deserving care and nurturing, why does that change as we get older? It shouldn't change. This makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense to me is that we should love ourselves simply because we are live. That we have a certain amount of self worth simply because we are alive. This concept to me implies that human beings are all "good." And I don't believe that. I believe that evil exists, and I'm not likening this to the devil or anything. I really belive that some people are "evil", that their evilness is not a result of any mental disorders or a childhood gone bad or bad brain chemistry. If I could get over this thought and truly belive that humanity is good to the core, I think I wouldn't have so much of a problem believing that self worth is based on simply being alive.
My T and I disagree about the evil thing and this really frustrates him I think. We had one session about this and talked about Charles Manson (yes, I can't belive I spent an hour on Charles Manson). I asked if he thought Charles Manson deserved psychiatric help, for say, depression, in jail. HE said "of course." That no one deserves to be depressed. I said I would have no problem if Charles Manson were severly depressed the rest of his life. I feel Charles Manson a. doesn't "deserve" mental health care and b. is one of those "evil ones" on whom therapy would have no effect. My T was slightly horrified by this attitude as he feels everyone should have access to mental health care and that everyone deserves it, including Charles Manson. And I have no idea where I'm going with his. Sorry...
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 4, 2004, at 9:55:07
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self Acceptance, posted by Shadowplayers721 on September 3, 2004, at 23:52:43
I like that strategy Shadows, thanks!
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 10:18:53
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self Acceptance » Dinah, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 4, 2004, at 9:53:49
I think that it's hard to think of the concept in regards to an unrepentent "sinner", but a lot easier to think of it in regards to a repentent one. The same probably applies though, it's just harder to conceive.
The example I always use when I'm trying to explain it to my son (or my husband - who believes that those who have done good all along should be way closer to "heaven" than those who repent and start over) is the author of "Amazing Grace". Now, I'm not sure how true this story is, because I have heard my pastor use untrue but popular stories before, preferring apocrypha that makes a point. But the story goes like this. The man who wrote Amazing Grace was every bit the wretch referred to in the song. A slave trader, a man who had done some truly horrible things in his life. And at some point, he realized that despite his prior actions that he was a valuable person who deserved the right to start over and become what he should have become the first time had he lived up to his potential for compassion. That his choices had determined the man he had been up to that point, but that there was more to him than his choices. And the something "more" meant that he had the ability at any point in his life to change who he is by making new choices. And in doing so to live up to the intrinsic worth that each of us has.
In religious terms, it would be prevenient grace, I suppose. The fact that every person is born with the ability to connect to God. In secular terms it would be the fact that every person has, on some level, intrinsic worth. I think I almost prefer secular, because I also believe that every bear, lion, dog, and cat has intrinsic worth. (Like I said, I'm still working on roaches, ants, and other seemingly virtueless critters.)
But I won't disagree that in some cases you have to dig way deeper through a whole lot of bad choices to find the intrinsic worth. And I got into a big fight with my Sunday School class (I think my last one before I stopped going) over the equality of sin. I think they had some idea that all of us were sinners and we shouldn't consider ourselves better than any others of us because we were all sinners. And I flatly refused to agree that my sins were on an even plane with Ted Bundy's, and thus we were both sinners and equal in the eyes of God. I wanted to separate the intrinsic worth from the later actions and assume that God gave me some credit for not killing scores of innocent people. (I think they all think I'm destined for h*ll anyway though.)
Posted by caraher on September 4, 2004, at 17:27:50
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self Acceptance » Dinah, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 4, 2004, at 9:53:49
> My T and I disagree about the evil thing and this really frustrates him I think. We had one session about this and talked about Charles Manson (yes, I can't belive I spent an hour on Charles Manson). I asked if he thought Charles Manson deserved psychiatric help, for say, depression, in jail. HE said "of course." That no one deserves to be depressed. I said I would have no problem if Charles Manson were severly depressed the rest of his life. I feel Charles Manson a. doesn't "deserve" mental health care and b. is one of those "evil ones" on whom therapy would have no effect. My T was slightly horrified by this attitude as he feels everyone should have access to mental health care and that everyone deserves it, including Charles Manson. And I have no idea where I'm going with his. Sorry...Reminds me of a session I had where we discussed whether my T would work with Hitler (answer: no!).
I understand your perspective but to understand where your T is coming from suppose Manson had some kind of medical emergency, say some other prisoner stabbed him. Your T probably just views the mental health issue as on par with any other health issue, and considers health care a basic human right in any civilized society (which I suppose puts us here the US squarely outside the pale of civilization).
That trick of thinking of yourself as a child can be effective, but I've found it a double-edged sword. For me it can trigger thoughts of all the ways I've "let down" my younger self. I still need to work more on separating "deservingness" from catalogs of successes and failures. I think the ideas about acting from "pure motives" are interesting and helpful.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 20:25:40
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self-Acceptance, posted by caraher on September 4, 2004, at 17:27:50
This is a really simple answer to a very complex construct. In no way do I say that this is "the answer." It's just something that has helped, I think.
I meditate, and the mantra I use, OM MANI PADME HUM is "often used by Buddhists to evoke compassion and dispel negative feelings towards oneself or others. This mantra is also said to help keep you alert while you relax."
(from "Complete Guide to Pilates, Yoga, Meditation, Stress Relief" page 152--no link to Amazon, unfortunately...it's by Paragon Publishing)I have noticed that I am more compassionate towards people who I would otherwise be angry with...my mother, certain inflammatory posters, my brother, etc. I have also become more "at ease" with myself in therapy, which means I am more okay with myself as I am. Now, whether this has all come from therapy, whether it's from meditating itself, or if the mantra helps, I don't know.
Just thought I'd pass this on.
gg
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 7, 2004, at 8:36:23
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self-Acceptance, posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 20:25:40
GG,
Gosh I wish I could use something like that. But do you want to hear something over the top? I had quite a traumatic experience with Buddhism when I was 7 years old! Such a long story. I'm afarid now that I can't use mantras or even study Buddhism seriously. It frightens me.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 7, 2004, at 9:03:12
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self-Acceptance » gardenergirl, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 7, 2004, at 8:36:23
Oh golly, I'm sorry. I hope I didn't bring back painful memories.
gg
Posted by terrics on September 8, 2004, at 18:58:38
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self-Acceptance, posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 20:25:40
Hi gg, Have you ever read the "Miracle of Mindfulness"? It is a simple book by a buddhist from Vietnam. Alot of DBT is taken from it.[Marsha Linehan used it as part of her development of DBT]. A VERY SOOTHING BOOK.
terrics
Posted by gardenergirl on September 8, 2004, at 21:01:26
In reply to Re: Unconditional Self-Acceptance » gardenergirl, posted by terrics on September 8, 2004, at 18:58:38
Sounds really interesting. I'll have to add it to the list...
Thanks.
gg
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