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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 3:56:13
Last week I posted several times on this board about issues to do with my therapist and psychiatrist, and found that writing and responding to your comments helped me clarify several really important things about my incestuous father and husband that were coming up in therapy which I hadn’t been able to see until then. I want to try and do the same with another problem that is giving me huge grief, in the hope that I will find understanding here too. Please comment if you can, it is so helpful.
I have had a difficult relationship with my therapist since my first meeting with her, when I found her hard and uncompromising. After much soul searching I decided to continue in therapy with her, because I thought it must be some sort of projection of mine onto her, but also because I sort of felt as if I deserved to be treated badly – and therein lies a tale, I suppose.
Over the year I have been in therapy with her, I have consistently been rude, angry and challenging towards her. I have even accused her of being a prostitute, prepared to care for anyone just for the money. She has always put up with everything patiently although I am sure she has not enjoyed it. I have threatened to leave so many times, have told her the most awful things about myself sort of in the hope that she would not stick around any longer, but she has. She keeps telling me that she cares for me and that whatever I do she is not going to go away.
I find it almost impossible to believe that she can care for me. How can she switch on caring for all the patients who knock at her door? I feel I must be just another patient to her, number 57, and caring is much on the same level as the caring you get at the Customer Care counter at a supermarket. I suppose also, to go back to my first point again, I feel that I can’t be cared for, that I deserve to be treated badly and turned away. She tells me that it is because my mother was uncaring that I can’t accept her. I also feel so scared that I will do something wrong and not understand what is expected of me, and that she will ridicule me, or decide that I am useless. At the moment I feel that I am getting it all wrong all the time. Perhaps I just don’t have the intelligence or understanding to be in therapy at all. Everything I say seems to be off the point. She obviously knows where I should be headed but I can’t get there. I feel lost and bad and unwanted and completely alone. I wish I could accept her offer to care for me, but I just can’t trust to it. I think I would die if anything went wrong.
She keeps telling me to telephone her outside therapy, but I feel as if I would be doing something wrong by calling her, as if I would be bothering her – she would ask me why I am calling and I wouldn’t have any reason to give her. I desperately want to hear her voice, but I am really scared of how she will judge me. Or that she will smile to herself greedily and say “I knew I’d get her sooner or later”. Oh, I feel like a silly child.
After the few good sessions I have had with her, I have had images of myself as a tiny baby lying on my back in the sun, with my therapist stroking me and laughing with me, but I can’t seem to stay with that. But I feel such longing and yearning for it.
While writing this I have left a message on her answering machine to say that I want to talk to her – she will probably only get back to me late this afternoon, no doubt while I am busy with my family around me, and I won’t be able to talk, and I will feel even worse.
Posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 4:04:16
In reply to Confused, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 3:56:13
P.S. I feel as if I need too much from her, that I am going to overwhelm her with my needs. I think I am just too hungry.
Posted by Raindancer on July 27, 2004, at 8:38:37
In reply to Re: Confused, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 4:04:16
You are so honest and brave in what you say and I think you are a really good and kind person. You've been made to believe you're not, though, from a very early age and when this happens to us it affects all we think, feel and do.
Your T does care - she wouldn't say so if she didn't as it would be totally against all her training as a T. She is also trying to show you that she is to be trusted and that she won't be overwhelmed by your need. She'll be right there with you. I don't know whether you're aware of it but you are testing her so that when she "breaks" you can say "There, I told you I was unlovable!" - but I don't believe she will. You are lovable - I wish you could have had this love as a child, but it is available to you now from your T and from all of us here and I'm sure there are many others that feel love towards you. I think that it's very hard to accept love when we don't accept ourselves as we always reject the warmth we're given, then beat ourselves up mentally for being unworthy. Your T can help you if you can relax a little and accept at least some of the care that she offers. It feels scary as the need is so desperate, but it is honestly worth the risk (everything in life is a risk, I think). She sounds reliable and caring enough to hold you and not let you go until you are ready.
Gradually through this you slowly build up a core of inner strength (this has happened to me - it took two years, but now it's working in a way I never before believed possible) which no-one can ever take away from you. You are very special and deserve the best . Take good care of yourself and please let us know how you are doing. Hugs.
Raindancer
P.S. I work part-time in a supermarket check-out and can honestly say that I become very close to my regular customers and care for some of them very much, sharing their joys and sorrows and missing them if they don't come in. Love can be found, even when shopping !
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 9:49:18
In reply to Re: Confused » vwoolf, posted by Raindancer on July 27, 2004, at 8:38:37
I'm so impressed with your post. It's so honest and authentic. And your images of being a baby with your T loving you is so very sweet. I hope someday you feel safe sharing some of this with her.
From my own experience working with clients, I can tell you that I would be pleased, not in a gloating way, but because I would be so happy for you. I can also tell you that your T means it when she says she cares for you and she is not going away. I can remember a client I had who tested me quite a bit. One time he finally said he was terminating because he thought my time was better spent helping others. I told him about my confusion in trying to understand what he wanted, but also told him that I would be there the next week at the regular time, as that was his time. He returned the next week, and this was a bit of a breakthrough for him, because he had tried so hard to push me away and failed. I don't know if your situation is similar, but I can say with certainty that I was pleased for him and sincere in my words to him about caring.
And I'm so pleased for you in sticking with this despite how hard it is for you to trust. I wish you feelings of peace and security.
Take care,
gg
Posted by NVDeb on July 27, 2004, at 10:39:56
In reply to Re: Confused, posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 9:49:18
Hi, I replied to your message about a little more about me... it was in the thread that I wrote with your name in the title about how you would feel if a client told you they loved you (but were not in love with you).
Posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:55:26
In reply to Re: Confused, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 4:04:16
I'm not a therapist, so I can't speak for yours, but -- back when I was still working, before this latest depressive episode hit last year -- I taught riding lessons. Now, I know, that's not like therapy -- except that a good riding teacher needs to be sensitive to the psychological aspects involved for the students. Before that, I taught computer classes for a long time, also something that involves a lot of amateur psychology. So even though my experience is tangential, it's still related, and I think I have some insight into the other side of this that might help you.
First of all, the students who stand out for me are not the "easy" ones -- those students who just followed my instructions and made adjustments based on my criticism. (in the neutral sense -- I have always been the "cheerleader" type of teacher, trying to point out the good as well as suggest improvements) The students who stand out for me are the "problem" students. The students who challenged me personally, and made me stretch my own abilities as a teacher. The students who made me think about them between lessons, to try to plan what other things to try with them to break through a block -- whether physical or psychological. Those are the students I look back on and miss the most. So, while you're twisting yourself into knots about how much you're overburdening her, she may genuinely be all fired up with enthusiasm that she has you to look forward to each week. That doesn't mean that she always enjoys your sessions, especially if you are literally telling her she's prostituting herself, but it means that there's a good possibility that she has a fair amount invested in your treatment, too. That's a good thing, really -- I do believe that the outcome for any treatment (or training) is better when both sides have a personal investment in it.
Also, what you're going through is not all that uncommon. We all express it differently, but a lot of us have trouble making that committment to the relationship with a therapist. It's more frightening than anything I've ever done -- making the decision to marry my husband when I was terrified of that committment was as nothing to what I'm going through now with my new therapist -- and the internal pressure involved because we know that we have to be able to open up in order to be helped just blows it all out of proportion.
You're not doing so badly, from what I've read here, though. You sound as if you have made the internal committment to the therapeutic process -- it's just taking a while for those Psychological Soldiers inside you to catch on that this intruder is safe enough to let past the gates. Don't worry right now about how to calm those guardians down -- that can wait until *after* you congratulate yourself on your ability to make the committment to yourself that's keeping you in therapy, and keeping you working on making progress. THAT, my dear, is one HUGE first step.
Can you say any of this to your therapist? Can you print out your post and take it in to her? Either of those might help, especially because your post here shows such clarity and insight.
Best luck.
Posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 13:52:52
In reply to Re: Confused, posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 9:49:18
Thank you so much for your kind, thoughtful answer. I know I need to let go and trust my therapist, and I think I really want to, but it is such a leap of faith! It doesn’t seem to be something I can simply decide to do - I’m going to have to feel trust first, and there seems to be something in me that is just not ready. I wonder if I will ever get there. Perhaps the hurt and mistrust are just too great.
It’s funny, I was talking to a friend of mine over lunch today about our teenage children and how difficult they can be, and how difficult we were at their age. I thought back to the way I used to behave towards my mother, and it suddenly struck me that this is exactly what I do with my therapist. The poor woman really will throw me out if I go on like this much longer.
I feel very torn by wanting her and needing to push her away. It is comforting to know that you have also experienced clients with this sort of ambivalence, and that they found some sort of solution to it. Did you feel enormous hostility towards them? I’m sure I would. While I sort of envy your choice of profession, and admire you for it, I think actually I would make a very bad therapist, since I seem to project so much onto my therapist and Pdoc. It must take extraordinary control to work in this field.
Bestest
VWoolf
Posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 14:36:04
In reply to Re: Confused » vwoolf, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:55:26
Thanks Racer for all the warmth and understanding you put into your post – I really feel such need of warmth and understanding at the moment, but can’t get them from anyone apart from my therapist, where they come with such terribly mixed feelings, and PsychoBabble, where there are no hang-up’s about having to pay, or obligations of any kind……it’s actually quite an amazing place!
I know exactly what you mean about the difficult students. I am also an ex-teacher (and, believe it or not, ex-school counselor), and always loved the troubled kids most. But I doubt that my therapist feels fired up with enthusiasm all week over me. Apart from anything else, I see her two or three times a week, and I think I must be getting very tedious after a year. Maybe one day she will look back on me as one of her more memorable, character-forming cases, but not right now.
On the other hand I live for my sessions with her. In between, I drag myself from one business meeting to another, and back to bed as soon as I can. I’m sure you’ve been through something similar, from the way you write, so I know you understand. It’s true, deciding to get married was not anywhere nearly as difficult as this. I like the idea of Psychological Soldiers – or rather, I don’t like the idea, but I have battlements swarming with Soldiers anyway. So-called friendly fire sometimes ;-/
I am trying to force myself to be as open as possible with my therapist, so I show her quite a lot of my writing. I am seeing her tomorrow morning, and have already printed out this correspondence to give her. I’m not sure how she’ll take it, but I don’t believe she’ll throw me out at this point at any rate. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Warm regards.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2004, at 15:48:53
In reply to Confused, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 3:56:13
Boy, did I struggle with this for a long time. And I tested my therapist for a long time. And I'll admit that when I stopped testing him and started trusting him, I had to do some relationship repair to help him trust me again. I think we've gotten past all that now, and have a genuinely good therapeutic relationship.
I think some of us just need proof. Just don't totally discount the proof she's giving you.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 16:19:40
In reply to Re: Confused gardenergirl, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 13:52:52
> Thank you so much for your kind, thoughtful answer. I know I need to let go and trust my therapist, and I think I really want to, but it is such a leap of faith!
Yes, it truly is. I hope you can someday make that leap, and in the meantime, I hope you can talk to her about how hard it is to trust.
> I thought back to the way I used to behave towards my mother, and it suddenly struck me that this is exactly what I do with my therapist. The poor woman really will throw me out if I go on like this much longer.
I think this is an important insight. And by the way, I was horrible to my mother as a teen, too. I wonder if your statement that your T will eventually throw you out is related to your own experience. Did you worry that your mom would throw you out? Or did she actually ask you to leave? It's so common to expect your T to behave the same way. But she won't throw you out. I feel quite sure about that.
> Did you feel enormous hostility towards them?
I can't say that I've felt hostility towards any of my clients. None that I can remember. And definitely not towards the more challenging ones. Like someone else said (I think pegasus?), I was usually enthused about working with them.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 16:20:41
In reply to Re: Confused » vwoolf, posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 16:19:40
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 16:23:12
In reply to Re: Confused » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2004, at 15:48:53
Okay, I should read all posts before responding. You printed out your writing about this...that's great! I'm so proud of you. That's a big step. I'm sure it is scary, but I bet your T will be very glad.
Please let us know how it goes, if you feel comfortable with that.
Take care,
gg
Posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 2:27:32
In reply to Re: Confused » vwoolf, posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 16:19:40
GG, you are spot on when you write “Did you worry that your Mom would throw you out? Or did she actually ask you to leave?”
I had never thought about it like that before, but that is exactly what happened. When I was 16, and still in High School, I fell into a deep depression. My school suggested that I should get professional help, and my Mom took me to a Psychiatrist. I had no insight at all into why I was depressed (I had blanked out all my memories of the long term incest with my alcoholic father as a small child), and felt very threatened by the questioning and spotlights on me, so I simply clamped up and became almost catatonic. This was a long time ago, and psychiatry was still quite primitive, and the only solution the pdoc could think of was electro-convulsive therapy – in massive doses of course, as they did then. Thinking back, they couldn’t have done anything worse, because this felt like punishment for my badness. The outcome was that I was left with even less memories, bigger feelings of guilt and no resolution. Within a few months I was back into deep depression, and was put into a psychiatric ward under observation for a month.
My mother decided that she had had enough at this point and arranged for me to go to Europe to study for a year. I was not part of the planning, it was all arranged for me. It may sound wonderful, but if you think that I was barely 17 and was suicidal and had just been through major psychiatric problems, it was a crazy idea. My mom kept asking “Aren’t you excited?” and would look angry when I would say “No”. I somehow managed to cope, although at times I think it was touch and go. I didn’t eat for the first week – I couldn’t speak the language and was too scared to buy myself any food, and only when I collapsed alone in the snow and was taken to a doctor, did I begin to look after myself. By that time of course quite a few men had taken advantage of my totally vulnerable state. I had absolutely no contact with home for three months – for all my mother knew, I could never have arrived at my destination. I never went back to live at home after that.
Sorry I have gone into so much detail, but your question just sparked so much feeling and memories. I don’t know how my mother has always managed to look so caring yet actually make me feel totally neglected. I am feeling really hurt and upset as I write this.
Thanks, gg, you’ll make a great therapist. I am seeing my T in a few minutes and will take her this post as well. It has been very helpful.
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 11:43:55
In reply to Re: Confused GardenerGirl, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 2:27:32
vwoolf,
You were very eloquent and told your story well. Please don't apologize for making it long. It was very helpful for me to hear; my father had shock therapy and he went through feelings of anger, at losing memory, and depression, as well.
He never resolved them with a therapist, though, and he's very unstable emotionally.
Posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 14:20:02
In reply to Re: Confused GardenerGirl, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 2:27:32
My session went well this morning – really well actually. I took all the posts (mine as well as yours, I hope you don’t mind) and we slowly went through them. I think that I had worked through a lot of my diffidence towards my T through discussing it with you, so that we were able to talk through things, even trust issues, calmly and trustingly. It was quite amazing for me. Thanks so much for all your support, because it has made such a difference. So many of your comments were really pertinent, and we discussed them in detail. I am not sure that I have resolved all my difficulties around trust, and I am sure they will raise their ugly heads again, but for today at least they went away, and that is major progress. I am seeing my therapist again tomorrow and feel hopeful that I will manage to keep it up that long. After that we’ll see.
I posted further down about some insights that I have had recently. I feel that I have actually made a huge step here, in choosing to stay in therapy with my T. If I look back at my life, I have always chosen to repeat the incest pattern as the only one that would give me relief from the aching pain of abandonment. This time, although with huge problems of trust, I am trying to change the pattern. I hope it will work. I think the issue of trust is the ‘BIG’ one that will make or break my attempt. Please hold thumbs for me.
Posted by shortelise on July 28, 2004, at 19:18:05
In reply to Confused, posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 3:56:13
A year is a short time to be in therapy. Let yourself do whatever you need to. It sounds like she's a good one, that she really does care.
Maybe some therpist become therapist because of a capacity to care about others, because of a desire to help others.
Do you really think your therapist is plotting to make you call her for her own gratification? That she is plotting to hurt you once she garners your trust?
It took years for me to trust my psychiatrist. And still, I sometimes am afraid that he will turn on me. We talk about it, and talk about it. It seemed to me at one point that as soon as I yeilded to that comforting image of leaning against him, he would leap up and destroy me. I did, and he didn't - even now in the last phase of therapy he is proving kind and gentle and respectful.
Keep at it. The very fact that you have that image of lying with her on your back in the sun means that you are progressing, doesn't it?
Shorte
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