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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 2:38:06
I went back. OK I only skipped one session, but I spent a pleasant week thinking that's it, no more therapy for me, thanks. Oh yeah, the pleasant part was mixed in with having my heart ripped out due to the attachment to the T, but I did experience some pleasantness. Thinking, hey, I don't have to have anyone tell me my thoughts are distorted and my perceptions are wrong anymore. I can just exist. Ahh.. what a relief.
I skipped my individual session but I went back to the group session. I was pretty guarded, but I ended up feeling better about the conflict. The woman who vented all her anger and jealousy at me talked quite a bit about it. The way she said it this time was less blaming to me, and more about her. She had a lot of guilt about hurting my feelings, so that helped, and I ended up reassuring her that she didn't do anything wrong (after all, she's only doing what we're trained to do in group). She also claimed her intent was to talk it through so we could be closer (well I figure this might be therapist coaching, but I'm willing to assume it could possibly be true). I said how it didn't seem that way to me, since we haven't really bonded up til now, so I didn't see it as her trying to get close, and I said it might have helped if she had stated that was her intention before launching in, but I acknowledged I still might have felt attacked even if she had said that.
She still didn't really get at the root of her anger, but at one point, she was saying I sounded paralyzed in my life, and that made her angry, and the T asked if it reminded her of being paralyzed in her own life, and that really p*ssed her off, and later the T also asked if it reminded her of her boyfriend, since she's been talking a lot lately about his career struggles, and that also seemed to hit a nerve. So... not that I wanted to see her suffer-- well maybe I got some satisfaction, but I did feel bad for her pain too, because I know the awful mindf*** of how the T manages to make it all about you when you're convinced it's 'out there' this time-- but it convinced me that maybe her anger is her own self-criticism getting triggered, not something wrong with ME. Although I already have enough self-criticism on this issue, which is why it was so easy to trigger.
So I felt better toward her, and felt good about showing up and going through the process. There's a guy in the group who's 2 or 3 weeks AWOL after a conflict with the other woman in the group, so I got to feel good about myself for doing better than him, although I'm pretty protective of him since this event-- I figure he's taking care of himself by staying away, whereas everyone else just seems disappointed/angry with him.
I'm dreading the individual session this week, I guess I'll go, but I'm still mad at her. I hardly looked at her in the session at all. I'm still going to harp on this point of how this woman admitted she's had a problem with me for a long time, even more of that came out tonight, and I kept telling her I thought this woman didn't like me much, but the T kept telling me I was seeing it wrong, and everything was fine, and the problem was just me not trusting. So isn't there the slightest possibility that, mixed in with my mistrust, I was *correctly* perceiving some unfriendly vibes from her? After all, the T is not omniscient about her clients or anyone. And dang it, I suspect that woman shared some of this stuff with her, but naturally she won't be able to tell me that due to confidentiality.
I have half a mind to go in there and be totally awful, totally entrenched in hating that woman, and tell her I was faking sincerity in the group session, just to mess with her head and be mean.
Posted by fallsfall on June 23, 2004, at 6:28:04
In reply to Prodigal therapy client returns, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 2:38:06
I'm so glad you went. You are doing the work.
I totally get your desire to mess with her head. I think that you might have some anger towards her (your therapist). This might be worth discussing...
I'm really proud of you.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 23, 2004, at 6:58:04
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on June 23, 2004, at 6:28:04
I'm glad the break was helpful and not a way of punishing yourself.
I think your anger is totally valid, and I would definitely want to push the issue of having her admit that she was wrong about your take on the other woman in the group. Your instincts were correct, and she needs to acknowledge that.
I also understand wanting to "mess with her head" because she has done that so much with you by deflecting your anger at her as anger at your parents, dog, mailman, anything but her. So, you've been carrying around this problem that she is responsible for, and you want to give her a fair share of the pain. Maybe instead of doing so you could tell her this is what you wanted to do? That could be more productive. (That's my disclaimer because sometimes I like passive aggressive solutions, so it's probably wise to take my comments with a grain of salt.)
Good luck, and good for you for hanging in there.
Posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 12:08:36
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on June 23, 2004, at 6:28:04
> I'm so glad you went. You are doing the work.
>
> I totally get your desire to mess with her head. I think that you might have some anger towards her (your therapist).Oh yeah, that's an understatment. I'm still royally p***ed about this incident and all that led up to it. And I'm still pretty mad at the group members too. (stamping foot) And I swear, some of it is real present day injustice, not just me and my issues.
>This might be worth discussing...I know, but I'm not looking forward to it. I don't think I'm going to get much satisfaction from it, except the satisfaction of not hiding from her.
>
> I'm really proud of you.Aw thanks. And thanks for listening to my drama.
Posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 12:18:22
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » fallsfall, posted by Aphrodite on June 23, 2004, at 6:58:04
> I'm glad the break was helpful and not a way of punishing yourself.
>
> I think your anger is totally valid, and I would definitely want to push the issue of having her admit that she was wrong about your take on the other woman in the group. Your instincts were correct, and she needs to acknowledge that.You don't know Miss Pollyanna. She'll have some weird take on it. She may not give an inch. But at least I can tell her I really really need for her to acknowledge that I might be a little bit correct. Then we can talk about that.
>
> I also understand wanting to "mess with her head" because she has done that so much with you by deflecting your anger at her as anger at your parents, dog, mailman, anything but her. So, you've been carrying around this problem that she is responsible for, and you want to give her a fair share of the pain. Maybe instead of doing so you could tell her this is what you wanted to do? That could be more productive. (That's my disclaimer because sometimes I like passive aggressive solutions, so it's probably wise to take my comments with a grain of salt.)I'm usually scrupulously open and honest with her. I just don't hide much. So for me to even think about using some dishonest strategy.. well it just shows how angry I am. I'd probably have no success at all with trying to mess with her head. After 5 minutes I'd blurt out all my true feelings. I'm not much of a poker player either.
>
> Good luck, and good for you for hanging in there.Thank you Aprodite.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2004, at 19:24:25
In reply to Prodigal therapy client returns, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 2:38:06
Tabitha, I really admire you for this. I try to stick with it too, even when I'm furious. And I'm certainly no stranger to wanting to hurt them. I have had numerous fantasies about cancelling sessions, being mean to him, everything. I honestly think I might do it if it ever occurred to me that I had the power to hurt him.
And my admiration for you in going back to group with your head held high defies expression.
Please let us know how it goes and if she manages to make most things right? Mine usually does, blast him.
Posted by tabitha on June 24, 2004, at 2:08:12
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2004, at 19:24:25
Thanks for the admiration. It feels undeserved somehow. I feel like I'm just flipping back and forth, between utterly exposed/devastated/sobbing last week, into cool/unemotional/competent/closed this week. That's safety mode for me. But being so cool and on my best behavior has left me with a residue of outrage. I still feel wronged, by my enemy, and my T. Why did she pick that moment to dump on me? I was utterly exposed, and thinking it was completely safe-- there were only 3 of us there, all women, and I was sharing the depth of my anguish, and *boom!* I get her attack. And I'm still affected by it. It's re-activated my shame, I'm doing things rather compulsively trying to cover the shame, or hide the problem, running in circles, and now I've just settled into safe mode (cool, unemotional, logical, competent). But I'm still raging inside when I think about it.
This is why group is so tiring, I come out of the sessions OK, then given time away, I get more and more angry about what happened. Then I go into individual and argue about it. I feel like a rather exhausted hamster in a wheel.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2004, at 8:33:04
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » Dinah, posted by tabitha on June 24, 2004, at 2:08:12
Boy, do I ever understand. Our lives seem to be running in parallel right now. Down to new doubts about our long term therapeutic relationships.
Sigh.
I'm starting to wonder if mine is just getting sick of seeing me after so long. I also wonder if maybe the problem is that he's no longer on his best therapeutic behavior with me, since he feels safe with me. I can't imagine he'd have many clients if he acted with them like he acts with me. :(
Posted by tabitha on June 25, 2004, at 1:12:25
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2004, at 8:33:04
> I'm starting to wonder if mine is just getting sick of seeing me after so long. I also wonder if maybe the problem is that he's no longer on his best therapeutic behavior with me, since he feels safe with me. I can't imagine he'd have many clients if he acted with them like he acts with me. :(
Better ask him about this stuff. I got the same impression when my T started doing the EFT stuff on me-- I thought she was just tired of hearing me talk and didn't know what else to do with me. Heck, I couldn't blame her, *I* get tired of hearing me talk. But naturally she said that's not true.
Well I went for my individual today, last session before her vacation. It wasn't as bad as I expected. I didn't spend quite so much time butting heads over interpreting the group session. We had an interesting disagreement over the definition of 'mean'. She wouldn't see my enemy as mean, so I asked her, would she acknowledge meanness if it happened? And what would it look like? Then she said the other woman in the group has been mean. I asked for specifics, and she said she didn't want to go into it, so then we talked about some more made-up examples, and I realized we just have a different definition of 'mean'. I don't see that other woman as mean.
At least she seemed to understand what I went through last week, and why I reacted so strongly. As expected, she wouldn't exactly admit any wrongdoing on her part, but she did say she was sorry for not finding the right words to comfort me earlier. Today she had a comforting take on it.
We did come up with one goal for me that I can get behind-- I need to have better boundaries, so when stuff like this happens, I don't take it to heart, and run with the perceived criticism, and fall apart and spend a week barely functioning. So having this goal makes me feel like there's a future for our relationship.
Right now I'm just not getting the concept of boundaries. All I know how to do is either open the door or close it. I don't get how I can be open to connecting, and feeling bonded, yet not let in the projections and disapproval and so forth.
Posted by zenhussy on June 25, 2004, at 2:44:03
In reply to Re: follow-up... Dinah and others, posted by tabitha on June 25, 2004, at 1:12:25
for someone who claims not to get the concept of boundaries you've explained them well. and your goal is admirable.
I certainly appreciate your openness about this on board as it helps people better understand group dynamics and how that can affect individual therapy.
You're strong for seeing this as you do.
Applause from the farther side,
--zh
Posted by LG04 on June 25, 2004, at 10:49:55
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2004, at 8:33:04
"I'm starting to wonder if mine is just getting sick of seeing me after so long. I also wonder if maybe the problem is that he's no longer on his best therapeutic behavior with me, since he feels safe with me."
Dinah, I just wanted to tell you that I have felt the same way before. In fact, my therapist once really snapped at me (on the phone). I was so upset and hurt. It's never happened before or since (this was some months ago). But at one point when we were discussing it afterwards and working thru it, she admitted that she probably wouldn't have snapped at most of her clients that way, that it happened because of how close she feels to me. (I caught her in a really bad mood.)
I felt like, "well i'd rather you be less close to me and not snap at me."
As I said, it's never happened again. But once in a while I do think she slips up because of how safe/close she feels to me. I do have problems with her being human and imperfect so I know some of it is my issue.
Also, I've also felt a few times lately that perhaps she is tired of me coming in with the same issues and struggles. She always says, "I can understand how you'd feel that way," and I am tired of that response. I want her to DO something, not just say how she understands how I feel.
But does that ever happen with you, where you are tired of his responses, that they feel to be the same again and again? And then you feel it's because he's perhaps tired of you or run out of ideas? That scares me.
LG
Posted by tabitha on June 25, 2004, at 12:21:57
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » Dinah, posted by LG04 on June 25, 2004, at 10:49:55
> Also, I've also felt a few times lately that perhaps she is tired of me coming in with the same issues and struggles. She always says, "I can understand how you'd feel that way," and I am tired of that response. I want her to DO something, not just say how she understands how I feel.
>
> But does that ever happen with you, where you are tired of his responses, that they feel to be the same again and again? And then you feel it's because he's perhaps tired of you or run out of ideas? That scares me.
>
> LGHi LG, I have felt that way-- tired of my own self seeming stuck on the same issues and problems forever, and sure that my T must feel the same. When I ask her about that, she says it isn't true. She seems to have a super-human ability to listen to people complain without getting bored. I don't know how she does it-- but that's why I pay her. She listens to me better than I listen to myself. And she'll also tell me that she doesn't see me as making no progress, that she sees a lot of progress. I'll ask her what progress she sees, and sometimes she'll list a bunch of things, but lately she makes me go through the effort of saying what things seem improved for me. I have a harder time seeing progress, because I can see changes, but my life still isn't quite what I want it to be, so sometimes it feels like no progress has been made at all. Soooo... I guess I'm saying I've gotten a lot of reassurance from discussing these fears with her, and perhaps you might get reassurance from talking about it with your T.
Posted by daisym on June 25, 2004, at 13:34:35
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » LG04, posted by tabitha on June 25, 2004, at 12:21:57
I think we must all get this fear once in awhile. I went into therapy one day in a "mood" having just come from a manager's meeting. I kept trying to shake it off and my therapist finally just said, "spend 5 minutes and bit** about what's bothering you." So I did. But when we talked about why I didn't want to, I admitting to thinking that constant complaining would get to him and he would either tune out or get frustrated. He asked me an interesting question, "Do you think I would react this way, because YOU are tired to people bit**ing at you all the time? Do YOU tune out or get frustrated?" Hmmm...projection, let me see.
Basically I think I have to remember that it isn't my training to listen to people in this capacity all day. But it is his. So I have to let him do his job. (easier said than done...)
Posted by gardenergirl on June 25, 2004, at 13:40:47
In reply to Bored Therapists, posted by daisym on June 25, 2004, at 13:34:35
My T and I had a conversation about boredom in therapy recently. He stated he didn't think he had ever been bored in our sessions, but if he was, (of course, you know what's coming here...) then it would be important to figure what that boredom is about. What "isn't" being said?
sigh, such an analyst in spirit if not in practice. That's what makes him so evil, I guess. :)
gg
Posted by LG04 on June 25, 2004, at 17:42:56
In reply to Re: Bored Therapists, posted by gardenergirl on June 25, 2004, at 13:40:47
Those are all good points. I think also I want my therapist to have all the answers. She sometimes suggests I talk to other people and see what their perspective is (for instance me deciding whether to stay in Israel or go back to America) and I want to say, "NO I want YOU to help me make the decision, and only you."
But really it's healthy for her to suggest I talk to others as well.
My therapist has told me that she is never bored with me. I do believe her. I don't think it's as much boredom that I get afraid of but that she's just plain old run out of ideas or doesn't know what to do or say anymore. I wrote her an email tonight telling her about that. I'll also bring it up with her on Monday when I see her....
LG
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2004, at 17:00:28
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » Dinah, posted by LG04 on June 25, 2004, at 10:49:55
I think you've hit the major disadvantage of long term therapy with the same therapist. Mind you, there are plenty of advantages. But I think there comes a point where they've said it all before and you've heard it all before and it gets to be a bit old. For example, if I say X I know he'll say Y, and he pretty much always does say Y. Because he knows me so well, there are very few bad misses where he totally misses the boat. But there are plenty of areas where I think he's offered all he can in the way of fresh ideas.
> Dinah, I just wanted to tell you that I have felt the same way before. In fact, my therapist once really snapped at me (on the phone). I was so upset and hurt. It's never happened before or since (this was some months ago). But at one point when we were discussing it afterwards and working thru it, she admitted that she probably wouldn't have snapped at most of her clients that way, that it happened because of how close she feels to me. (I caught her in a really bad mood.)
>
> I felt like, "well i'd rather you be less close to me and not snap at me."See, mine would never say that he felt close to me. But he has said on occasion that he sometimes forgets to keep his therapist hat on, that he sometimes forgets to watch his words as much as he would with clients he hasn't seen for nine years. And I have the same reaction. That so often we have the fantasy that we want our therapists to be their genuine selves with us when it just isn't so. I for one would rather have a therapeutic relationship with him.
>
> As I said, it's never happened again. But once in a while I do think she slips up because of how safe/close she feels to me. I do have problems with her being human and imperfect so I know some of it is my issue.I don't have any problems with him being imperfect and human. He's been that from the start. :)
>
> Also, I've also felt a few times lately that perhaps she is tired of me coming in with the same issues and struggles. She always says, "I can understand how you'd feel that way," and I am tired of that response. I want her to DO something, not just say how she understands how I feel.
>
> But does that ever happen with you, where you are tired of his responses, that they feel to be the same again and again? And then you feel it's because he's perhaps tired of you or run out of ideas? That scares me.
>
> LGYeah, that happens with me. I feel like he might get impatient that I haven't put issues to rest after we've already discussed them. I think he gets frustrated that I'm not "cured". I think he wonders how he can be helpful to me other than by providing stability. I think he's given up on helping me in any way but providing a source of stability. I find that hurtful in some ways, though I realize I've reaped what I've sowed.
Like I said, there are good and bad points in seeing someone for a long time. I'm not always sure whether the good outweighs the bad. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter. It's not like I'm going to change therapists or anything.
Posted by heather247 on June 28, 2004, at 21:33:17
In reply to Re: Prodigal therapy client returns » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2004, at 8:33:04
Hope I posted this in the right area...
So I have 2 memories...In one, I am an infant, in a crib,but old enough to stand as long as I can reach the crib rail (that I happen to be gnawing on). My mom leaves, and strangers come in the house and release snakes all over the place. My mom returns and tells me what a good baby I am to stay in my crib and not disturb the snakes.
Second memory...I am a small child, I have a cough. I go to the restroom at my grandmothers house, and begin to cough. I stand on my tippie toes to cough into the bathroom sink. I cough up a bug, shaped rather like a pad of butter, but hard with legs all around it..
These feel like memories. They dont feel like dreams, yet they are so out-there far fetched that I cannot myself believe them.
I was sexually molested most of my childhood by my father. My mom is now a therapist, and says that I am remembering SOMETHING, but the parts that I could not understand as a youngster, I remembered in terms that were tangible to me...
What the heck are these "memories" about, and why do they bug me soooooo much??
any ideas welcome...
Posted by shadows721 on June 28, 2004, at 23:08:27
In reply to dream, false memories, what the heck is this????, posted by heather247 on June 28, 2004, at 21:33:17
My uncle was into snakes, so a lot of my abuse revolved around them. Did anyone your family knew were into snakes too?
As far as the bug thing, that doesn't sound far fetched to me at all. Children put things in their mouth all the time. You may have been a very little child and someone tricked you too. I guess this doesn't sound bizarre to me, because my Uncle was into spiders, dead things, and bugs.
It is possible to remember before you can talk. Trauma memories are stored differently than regularly memories. They are frozen in time. They can come back with total recall or bits at a time.
Trust yourself. I would never even pick up a book on False Memory stuff. I can't remember the kind poster's name here, but they told who is behind that forum. One has to look at the motive of those heavy into protecting this idea. Abuse happens and it is repressed as a survival mechanism.
By the way, it's very common for memories to resurface at night time.
Please trust yourself. No one knows your history better than you.
Posted by shadows721 on June 28, 2004, at 23:50:36
In reply to dream, false memories, what the heck is this????, posted by heather247 on June 28, 2004, at 21:33:17
Early in my trauma tx, I kept notes of all the stuff coming up. No matter how bizarre, I kept a record. Sure enough, over the years, the pieces started falling into place in big chunks. I feel it was very helpful for me to write down everything that came up. I started to get a better and better picture of the abuser (his habits, issues, beliefs, to name a few). Also, I got a bigger and bigger idea how much abuse happened and the toll it had on me today.
Here's a book you might find helpful.
This is the end of the thread.
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