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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 2:09:17
Redirect from before....
Thanx (((Daisy))) for being my provokatuer...
> But do you agree or disagree that we need to work on conflicts with interpersonal skills?
>
<<<if we are "one-with-ourselves", yes. Since I broadly define conflict as anything with even momentary disagreement, much of our waking time is spent at some level of conflict resolution. I contend we are bad at it because we don't use our adult attributes and advanced skills, instead choosing to wait for some "big-person" to come along and tell us how and when to act.Short of guidance, we manipulate with coercion or explode into violence. This is not "a-life"! Its a joke we play on ourselves. We dress up in "big-people" clothes and drive a car and get drunk at lunch just like "big-people" do. Pretty sad picture.
>
>Or, do you think if we "fix" ourselves, these conflicts will be less likely to happen?
>
<<<Hmmmm....; "fix"... We CAN become well; I'm living proof! ...only after my rite of passage at age 41!Conflicts will happen and we will be "star" conflict resolvers. We'll be so smooth we won't even notice 'em.
>
> I'm pretty OK by myself, and actually, in a big crowd. It is with a few, close friends that I get squirrelly about protecting myself or knowing what to cling to and what to resist (ideas that conflict with mine).
>
<<<...but I like you most when you're squirrelly!Try not clinging to anything for 24 hours and see what you learn. (this is my first lesson for you becoming one of my Life Coaches)
>
> As far as a right of passage, I think if parents gave praise and "rewards" for things done well, not just brave attempts (consider developmental stages, please!) then I think young people would internalize the confidence needed to make decisions based on your balance of thinking and feeling.
>
<<<Not poo-pooing what you are saying. However, for 6,000 years and 180 countries, (None the USA), adolescent males have been given a knife, a robe, and a sack of food, sent off into the forest and told to come back after 12 moons. If they make it back, they become a man in the tribe they used to be a boy in. If they don't make it, they become food for forest predators and scavengers.Translate this to a barmitzva nowdays. Then, notice we don't do this. Then, get curious about why we are retarding our ability to take responsibility, have genuine respect instead of obligation, why we have feelings of approval and mistakenly call it love, and why we avoid new "nouns" (people, places, things, ideas) because we can't accept anyone, let alone ourselves. ...all done way past our given time to become a grownup.
>
>I think they are given messages over and over to make them feel good but these messages don't resonant with their intellect. Thus, they don't trust either their intellect or their feelings. Or both (make no decisions at all). They don't learn balance.
>
<<<good parenting is inducing rules based on a moral coda onto the child that hopefully they can remember and use later when they need it. The child responds to the approval of the parent. The child's wiring isn't complete yet so the word love is only recognizable as approval. The parent can have genuine grownup love for the child. The child can only process approval. All their lives the child may think they are talking about the same thing. However, the neuro folks have solved the puzzle. The kids just don't notice the changeover to grownup love even though it is vastly different from childhood approval electro-chemically in the lab.
>
> So, philosophically speaking, this might be why more people *need* therapy today more now than ever.
>
What I think gets me PBCs from Dr Bob. (no one needs therapy as much as they need to become mature). They must learn to take resoponsibility, replace approval seeking with love, replace fear of danger with respect for the same danger, and replace avoidance of "nouns" with acceptance. The rite of passage ritual gives them a key date to remember as the day that their life changed and they could then call themselves adult!Please listen to your heart and your brain in concert with each other. Both are important! If we keep count, I bet we don't even recognize decisions made with logic. We are told to think with our heart, yet that's all most do anyway. They never learn to honor their adult talents and skills; things that no child can do, ever. They just never notice the difference and denial isnt just a river in Egypt either.
Rod
PS: I don't want a PBC...
PPS: Either we given bad messages or we simply fail to heed them. We don't learn to be a grownup usually until we have Kids of our own. Thats way too late.
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 15:46:06
In reply to (((Daisy))), posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 2:09:17
Daisy, What room is there for conflict at the discovery of facts level? Size? Weight? Age? Brightness? (All these are comparisons - qualitative! Back to pesky topic called "isness")
Cut-to-the-chase-here:
***If most every conflict we have in our lifetime is over the story and not the facts, isn't it to our advantage to make every attempt to perceive better if we want to improve our lives by better conflict resolution?
***Doesn't perceiving better have a time-value element that requires that we waste less time doing the wrong things in order to have time to do the right things for that better life?
***Doesn't it require that we stop pledging allegience to folks who are causing the problem by demanding we follow thier testimony as to what makes the world go round?
***As gownups, don't we have all the talents required to live that better life and owe it to ourselves to honor those attributes and live that better life?None of these are trick questions.....
Rod
Posted by DaisyM on March 26, 2004, at 17:37:35
In reply to 99% of conflicts are at the feelings level, posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 15:46:06
The easy answer to those questions is yes, of course. But there are underlying assumptions that may not be true or present.
LIKE: most people who see the same thing, describe it differently. Do you know the story of the 5 blind monks and the elephant? Depending on where you stand, how it feels and what your previous experience has been, will determine how you see the "facts".
As far as acting like adults, I think we all agree that remnants of childlike behavior are always hanging around. For some of us, our "inner child" has not been completely integrated. So if something triggers that child, the resulting behavior may be far from adult like. And conflicts tend to trigger childlike responses.
Most importantly, I don't think pledging alligance or not is as easy as you make it sound. Many of us KNOW we should disconnect from certain individuals in our life, but instead we increase the head-banging to try to change them, or ourselves, enough to fix the situation. It is an unexplainable hold, especially if it is family, to want to agree with this important person, or to avoid conflicts with them. The vulnerability to have this person hurt us is pretty huge and again, triggers the child.
I guess we can agree in theory but it is definately easier said than done.
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 18:34:17
In reply to Re: 99% of conflicts are at the feelings level, posted by DaisyM on March 26, 2004, at 17:37:35
(((Daisy))),
Johnny Carson had a TV gameshow in the afternoons called, "Who Do You Trust?" That's the rub for me. I am bucking trust with new (avoidable) information, not even sure how to say it. I keep rehashing the same stuff over and over again and look, you are hanging in there after 4 months.
Like I mentioned: turn off "something" for 24 hours and see what you learn. Don't expect anything. Just pay attention. Learn what you can for yourself, not for me or anyone else. That might be the mistake you've made in the past, assuming that someone else is better at living your life than you are. Not so! You are best at knowing what's good for you. You are "enough" and always have been!
Take three days of your busy life to devote to yourself:
***List three things that always cause pain in your life. Avoid, ignore, abstain from them for the next 24 hours. Write in a journal or email me what you learn along the way.
***List three things that always cause pleasure in your life. Avoid, ignore, abstain from them for the next 24 hours. Write in a journal or email me what you learn along the way.
***List three things that are just not right in your life. Avoid, ignore, abstain from grumbling, complaining, and passing judgement on them for 24 hours (if you can...). Write in a journal or email me what you learn along the way.
Do these first three drills and you will discover what a hold (blackmail) your feelings have over your behavior. Your gut is holding you hostage and your life is worth more than that!!!Rod
PS: dr_rod1 at yahoo dot com
Posted by gardenergirl on March 26, 2004, at 23:56:13
In reply to Re:Re:Its all easier than we think at first... » DaisyM, posted by 64Bowtie on March 26, 2004, at 18:34:17
Rod,
I just have to jump in here. I believe feelings can be as adaptive as rational thinking. Perhaps this is a gendered phenomenon example, but ever meet someone you just *knew* was a creep and then later have that gut feeling validated? Ever feel fear or extra vigilance when walking down a dark alley alone at night in a less familiar part of town? Ever get that nagging anxiety that you are supposed to be somewhere else, and then you check your planner and realize you have a meeting in 5 minutes?All of these are instances where a feeling, physical or affective provided valuable information that your thoughts may not have been able to produce. Gavin DeBecker (sp?)a security expert, wrote a wonderful book on safety which highlights the value of fear responses in protecting your personal safety.
One of the reasons I really like Process-experiential therapy is that it helps the client find and experience maladaptive feelings, like transferential anger, phobias, etc. and examines the cognitive schemas associated with the feelings. Through experiential and meaning work, the client can construct new cognitive-affective schemes which are adaptive and integral to efficient and effective functioning. I have found this to be a more flexible approach, when sometimes maladaptive cognitions seems to be the focal point, and sometimes emotions are the focal point. But working within this model highlights the value of both cognition and affect. In fact, they are intrinsically linked in the brain, according to the authors (Greenburg and Elliot).
I think people gravitate to various theories based on their individual styles, histories, strengths, and issues. I truly do not believe in one model fits all. Both therapists and clients seem to work best with different models based on what they bring to the equation. I often get bugged when reading about different models that presume to be "the" answer.
Regards,
gg
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 27, 2004, at 4:39:36
In reply to Re:Re:Its all easier than we think at first..., posted by gardenergirl on March 26, 2004, at 23:56:13
GG,
Thank you ever so much for your post. I'm left perplexed that I must have split my thoughts into toooo many pieces or something.
You stated that you felt sixth-sense gut feelings and the hair standing up on the back of the neck are some times as effective for decision making if not more than rational decision making. Please reread some of my earlier stuff to be certain that I agree with you 100%.
My bias is that most folks can't tell the difference. When they do learn the differences and are effective with feelings when appropriate and effective with rational decision making otherwise, Their lives will change.
They won't change some magical way only I know about and believe in. I mean that I have seen lives change to my surprise. These lives even get better when they take another step and create a concert where feelings and logic perform together for even bigger and better results.
Darn! I can't give examples of how your life will change, though. I don't know your life. I can encourage you to add logic where you haven't in the past and do the same with feelings.
Experiment!!! You can't break anything that hasn't been broken before. Try new ways to resolve conflicts. Leave the violence and coercion out of it. Also, leave out cleverness and lieing!
What will you be left with? A life! But, it'll be your life! Not one I create for you. Yours, period!
Rod
Posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 13:20:21
In reply to Was that you I felt jumping (in)...lol » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on March 27, 2004, at 4:39:36
Rod,
Very clever subject line. ;-)Thanks for the post. I think I have read a lot of your posts, but sometimes get confused. I sometimes have a hard time placing them in context with the thread they are in, and thus lose some of the content out of my confusion.
Okay, here's an example I would love your consultation on. Sorry for it's length, but I want to give enough context, and frankly it is still in the midst of being quite distressing. I work in an office with four other people, four total desks, two computers, and one phone. Three of us are caucasian females, one is caucasian male who is kind of a spacy, flaky, sweet guy who lives on his own plane of reality, and one is an African American female. We have all got along reasonable well despite the crowded conditions. Rarely are we all in there at the same time, anyway. I have become close friends this year with the other two caucasian girls.
Recently, the African American girl (I'll call her A)left a document spooling in the printer overnight. She then logged off the computer and went home. Early the next morning one of my friends (B) came in to print something, found the printer out of paper and a document stuck on spooling. Since the document itself was not accessible (A had logged off), she cancelled the document that was stuck in order to print her stuff. One half page of printed material came out of the printer before the document cancelled. She threw this away, as it appeared to be unusable for anyone. (half a page of doc. and then some gibberish, and then the blank space).
"A" came in later and found her page in the trash. Since she had been printing a three page doc. for some reason she looked around the office and found a shredded doc. in the shredder that looked like the other two pages. Her assumption was that someone in the office intentionally threw away one page and shredded the other two. Already not a parsimonious theory, who would do two different things to the document? This is someone, I should note, who recently told me that after watching "The Passion" she really identified with Jesus Christ as she felt equally persecuted. That was a shocker at the time, and I was really sad for her, but did not really go any deeper with her about it.
Anyway, she posted a nasty note telling everyone not to shred any doc. that was not theirs. Okay, no problem. But then she accused B of doing the intentional act. She never asked me or the guy, or C, the other caucasian girl if we had done it. This was quite perplexing to the three of us. It was also distressing for me as I could not conceive of anyone in the office taking so much energy to do something like that. She very patronizingly told me, while she was patting my hand, that someday I wouldn't be so naive and would learn that my friends were essentially "evil".
Later C went through the shredded materials because she had recently shred a similar document (everyone is working on the same project for their CCE's and these doc's are very similar. She shreds each iteration of it as she revises it so she doesn't get them confused.) She determined that it was hers in the shredder, which goes along with the fact that only half a page of A's ever came out of the printer. A refuses to believe this, got belligerent that she has nothing to prove, and now thinks that B and C are covering up.
Here's our dilemma. Clearly, this woman is mistrustful of all of us and our motives. She even brought up the fact that the radio is on the desk she usually uses and suggested that it was because it was "her" desk. Well, the radio was placed there at the beginning of the practicum placement, before anyone had claimed space. That is where the most free outlets are, and the most free desk space as neither of the computers or phone stuff is on that desk.
C and I considered ourselves to be at least casual friends with A. We also consider ourselves to be good listeners, and capable of expressing empathy and support even if we do not agree with others. We are training to be T's after all. Whenever we try to listen neutrally, reflect what A is saying to be sure we understood, and offer support, she basically throws it back in our faces and gets hugely defensive. C and I have learned that we never were friends with this girl, that she never trusted us, and that she does not respond at all to empathy statements. This really has shaken us up, almost to the core, as usually our intuition and assessment about relationships and our use of empathy garners some response, even in the most truculent clients. A has stated that she is mad at C, but "doesn't know if she will stay mad" so she wants C to go on behaving as usual, but A reserves the right to not talk to her. She refuses to give any behavioral examples of what C has done to offend, saying "you know what you did." I swear, between that and the name calling, she's acting like a seven year old.
We feel like we are in a no-win situation. No attempts to date to try to understand A and/or clear the air to start over have worked. It is affecting the way B, C, and I act together as we feel we are walking in a mine field whenever A is around. And that is distressing because we rely on each other for support in dealing with the stresses of this placement. A lot of that support invovles humor, which we feel has been taken away from us now. When we try to be ourselves, it feels false and forced if A is around.
What do we do? How do we get past our hurts and personal feelings as well as learn to communicate with A in a way that is not going to induce more accusations or arguments?
I would love any advice you or anyone else has.
I also am really worried about A, as in some ways, it does not seem like she is working from reality at this point. Or perhaps her reality is 180 degrees different from ours.
Thanks for reading!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 14:10:58
In reply to Re: Was that you I felt jumping (in)...lol, posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 13:20:21
Posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 14:16:52
In reply to Moving last post to new thread, sorry to derail (nm), posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 14:10:58
This is the end of the thread.
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