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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 10:48:47
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 9:15:15
Crushed, my therapist said something similar to me once. And my response was the same. "Boy, you're in the wrong business." But he got past it, and relatively quickly. I don't think I changed that time. He did. And because he quit fighting my neediness, I quit feeling so needy.
I'm not sure I learned anything to take into the real world from that. First of all, in the real world, I don't cling or need. Second, I think it's a normal human reaction to cling to what you need when you feel it pulling away. If it quits pulling away you quit clinging. I think in the real world, the person wouldn't have quit pulling away and the relationship would have ended.
I think it will be a wonderful thing for you to learn to overcome this pattern in your life, if you recognize it as a pattern. But it might also be helpful to see the other person's part of the pattern too. Do you typically choose people who pull away at signs of neediness? Perhaps it might be helpful for you not only to recognize what you do in a relationship, but also who you choose in a relationship.
Posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 14:11:28
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 10:48:47
That's really interesting, Dinah. Thanks for sharing it. I'm glad to know my therapist is not the only one who has such reactions and you have a good relationship with your T so it does not necessarily mean she's a jerk, which is not what I think (but sometimes I worry about it).So, how did you get your T to get past it? Or do you know?
I actually don't think I act needy, either, outside of therapy. I know that I used to be very clingy in relationships but this was many years ago and I've since learned to be quite independent. Actually, I only cling when someone pulls away fiercely. I don't think I choose people who are particularly scared off by neediness, no, but that's a good question. Maybe I do.
I agree with you that the normal reaction when someone pulls away is to cling more, and of course the normal reaction to clinging more is to pull away more. So hopefully I can talk about this with my T and she can help us break that cycle. I'm afraid to cling now because I don't want her to pull away, but I kind of need to cling and have her not pull away. Does that make sense?
Posted by fallsfall on March 19, 2004, at 15:02:27
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 9:15:15
>But I do have this problem of what do I do when my session makes me feel like crud and I'm all paranoid but I don't feel like I can call her because she'll be mad at me. I guess I need to talk to her about this soon. Because it would be nice not to have to carry that depression and paranoia around with me for days.
It seems like your therapist does admit to countertransference reasonably frequently. I think that it is good when they can admit to it, but I'm a little concerned that she is running into her issues so frequently. Maybe your particular issues happen to bump into her particular issues a lot - maybe other clients don't "push her buttons" as much as you do.
I have been able to work on the issue of surviving until my next session when I think my therapist is mad. For me, it took many times of being miserable until my next session, and then having him reassure me that my fears were unfounded. Over time, I was able to tell myself "Your fears are probably unfounded, so don't freak out until you can check this out". That way I was spending the time between sessions NOT freaked out, instead of freaked out. But if she *is* getting mad, then this might not work for you.
Life is so confusing.
Posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 15:27:39
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on March 19, 2004, at 15:02:27
Sometimes I wonder if my therapist is just more in touch with or honest about her countertransference than other therapists are, and if that's the case, I respect that a lot, I think. I value honesty and openness a great deal (who doesn't?).Anyway, perhaps I need to learn to say to myself, "Even if she *is* mad at me, it doesn't mean she doesn't care about me, and it certainly isn't the end of the world." That's also true and an important lesson to learn. It's just that I feel so dependent on her that I'm *extremely* vulnerable, and afraid of losing even a part of her because of her anger.
> >But I do have this problem of what do I do when my session makes me feel like crud and I'm all paranoid but I don't feel like I can call her because she'll be mad at me. I guess I need to talk to her about this soon. Because it would be nice not to have to carry that depression and paranoia around with me for days.
>
> It seems like your therapist does admit to countertransference reasonably frequently. I think that it is good when they can admit to it, but I'm a little concerned that she is running into her issues so frequently. Maybe your particular issues happen to bump into her particular issues a lot - maybe other clients don't "push her buttons" as much as you do.
>
> I have been able to work on the issue of surviving until my next session when I think my therapist is mad. For me, it took many times of being miserable until my next session, and then having him reassure me that my fears were unfounded. Over time, I was able to tell myself "Your fears are probably unfounded, so don't freak out until you can check this out". That way I was spending the time between sessions NOT freaked out, instead of freaked out. But if she *is* getting mad, then this might not work for you.
>
> Life is so confusing.
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 16:10:38
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » Dinah, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 14:11:28
He meets with a peer supervisory group. I'm guessing when he blurted out his countertransference, he realized that it was affecting therapy and sought help. He got over it pretty quickly and the dynamic changed a lot.
I also worked hard at showing him the ways in which I was *not* like other people in his life, and confronting his distorted perceptions of me whenever I saw them, while admitting to those parts that were true.
But mainly I think it was the supervision.
Posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 16:20:38
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 16:10:38
Posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 16:27:59
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 9:15:15
Geez, I wish we could have this discussion in real time because there are so many ways to go with it.
First -- Honestly, do you think you are suffocating and this is the issue you are working on in therapy? You don't have to answer if here if you don't want to, obviously.
But if the answer is no, and I see in your post to Dinah that you don't see yourself as "needy" in the real world, then I have to wonder what it is in therapy that has been activated. For me, it is the little kid who wants a safe base, someone that won't fail her. If you need your therapist to be that for you, she should. To know your Therapist will be angry at you for showing you need her, I don't think that this makes it safe for you to be honest. Even if you need to work on the fact that someone being angry isn't the end of the world. Justifiable anger...like you call her 12 times a week and do generally intrusive behavioral stuff. Doesn't sound like that is what you are doing.
I find it really amazing that she gets angry at people who need her and yet she is a Therapist. How do you rectify those two things? This is one of those rhetorical questions I'm sending out to the universe. I'm not criticizing, it just seems incongruous to me. I don't think you WANT to need her, you just do. So your sense of self is tied up with her right now, she needs to help you find your own strength by showing you it is OK to need people. She could even say, "I'm sorry, I'm really not available on weekends. Let's work together to figure out what will work for you to get the support you need to not be miserable between sessions." Then you could have a list of friends to call, Babble, write in your journal, bake, etc. I've worked on these things with my Therapist so that while it is OK to call him, he knows I feel immensely guilty about doing this, so we have alternatives in place. Also, when I do call, he knows things to suggest that will work for me, if I need distractions or other supports.
I don't remember if I said it before, so I'll say it again. Checking in before you leave the session can be really useful to clear up some of your feelings about her being upset with you. That way you don't suffer with your own worries. Ask her to stop 5 minutes early and check in with you: "how do you feel about what we've done today? or "do you have any questions or concerns before you leave?" This will only work if you can stick to ending, not bringing in a new issue at the end. My staff calls these door knob bombs...the parents drop something really important as their home visitor is leaving.
I wish it wasn't so hard for you. Therapy is suppose to help. It isn't always suppose to feel good or be easy but I think knowing our Therapist's want to be working with us is important.
I hope you can find peace this weekend and not spend too much time worrying. I'm glad you took the chance and sent the email. I do think you need to talk more about it Monday.
Daisy
Posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 18:17:37
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 16:27:59
I wish we could have this in real time, too. I'm so confused that my head is spinning.
Now that you point it out, I realize I *don't* think I have an issue with needing or suffocating people. I might have had that problem a long time ago, but I seem to have sorted it out. It's *not* one of the things I'm working on in therapy.
I do, on the other hand, seem to have the problem of blaming or putting the responsibility for my decisions onto other people, either before- or after-the-fact, and I do that with her and it makes her feel "pressure." Which makes her want to pull away and see me less often, for example. I don't think it's the wanting to see her that makes her feel the pressure, but the blaming and wanting her to fix things. And that makes her want to see me less often. Does that make sense?
But I'm so confused right now. I'm not sure I'm getting this right. And maybe the reason I don't have this problem right now in the real world is because she sort of *is* my world, so I'm not vulnerable, clingy, or needy with other people, because she's the only one I feel like doing that with. (And yeah, I would think it's something like this for me, too: >>For me, it is the little kid who wants a safe base, someone that won't fail her.)
>>>If you need your therapist to be that for you, she should. To know your Therapist will be angry at you for showing you need her, I don't think that this makes it safe for you to be honest.
I agree. It puts me in a really bad situation where I end up being kind of passive aggressive (?) -- rather than asking for what I need, I send her a sort of coded request for what I need. That's what I did yesterday. I wanted her to reassure me, and I wanted to just ask for that, but I was afraid that would be putting too much "pressure" on her. So, instead I emailed her and said I felt terrible and thought she hated me and wished we could rewind and redo that session and talk about something else. And she ended up understanding the code (it's probably not that subtle and she's perceptive) and reassuring me, but I think it would be better if I felt like I could be more direct about what I need.
Your idea about checking up at the end of the session is a good one. I also think I should get her to clarify her weekend "policy" if she has one, just so I *know* what the boundaries are. I have a feeling she doesn't have one.
I'm also thinking of bringing in some of the posts on this thread and showing them to her on Monday, but I'm kind of scared to do that (I've told her about Babble but I haven't ever shown her a post -- it makes me feel very exposed, the idea of doing that). Also, I'm afraid it would just take too long for her to read the whole thread, and I feel like it's important for her to read the whole thing. Ugh. I'm silly, aren't I?
Thanks, Daisy. Your posts are extremely thoughtful and helpful.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:30:08
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 18:17:37
Crushed I don't think youre silly at all....I think it is a great idea
>>I'm also thinking of bringing in some of the posts on this thread and showing them to her on Monday, but I'm kind of scared to do that (I've told her about Babble but I haven't ever shown her a post -- it makes me feel very exposed, the idea of doing that). Also, I'm afraid it would just take too long for her to read the whole thread, and I feel like it's important for her to read the whole thing. Ugh. I'm silly, aren't I?>
Posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 19:51:16
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 18:17:37
Next time we'll use Babble Open. I should have thought of it before.
I don't think you are silly at all! I don't bring in threads because I feel exposed too. But I might talk about "a friend" if I need to clarify something that was said to me here.
My Therapist says "your needs are your needs, just like your feelings are your feelings. You don't always get your needs met, and that is OK. But it doesn't make you bad for having them in the first place." Which is reassuring because I'm aghast that I have this dependency thing going on at all. You should believe the same thing about your self and your needs. You are allowed to have needs and wants. You shouldn't have to worry about her reaction to your truths. It sounds like you are trying to find a way to own what is clearly her stuff. You've switch from "needing" her to "blaming" her in your descriptions. I'm not criticizing, just pointing out that this may truly be all about her. And that makes it hard for you but not your fault. Blaming her actually would be something you would expect her to be able to handle. It is transference in its purest form. *sigh* I wish it wasn't so hard for you.
Maybe it might be time to stop trying to figure it out, have a rest, go to happy hour, dinner or the movies. Taking your mind off of therapy for awhile and live your life. Come back to it fresh. Enjoy the weekend.
D
Posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 20:05:23
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 19:51:16
I never heard of Babble Open. Is that a real thing?Thanks, Daisy. You are so sweet and kind and helpful. You're right, I'm going to try to stop thinking about tx for at least a few hours, if I can (that's a big "if").
> Next time we'll use Babble Open. I should have thought of it before.
>
> I don't think you are silly at all! I don't bring in threads because I feel exposed too. But I might talk about "a friend" if I need to clarify something that was said to me here.
>
> My Therapist says "your needs are your needs, just like your feelings are your feelings. You don't always get your needs met, and that is OK. But it doesn't make you bad for having them in the first place." Which is reassuring because I'm aghast that I have this dependency thing going on at all. You should believe the same thing about your self and your needs. You are allowed to have needs and wants. You shouldn't have to worry about her reaction to your truths. It sounds like you are trying to find a way to own what is clearly her stuff. You've switch from "needing" her to "blaming" her in your descriptions. I'm not criticizing, just pointing out that this may truly be all about her. And that makes it hard for you but not your fault. Blaming her actually would be something you would expect her to be able to handle. It is transference in its purest form. *sigh* I wish it wasn't so hard for you.
>
> Maybe it might be time to stop trying to figure it out, have a rest, go to happy hour, dinner or the movies. Taking your mind off of therapy for awhile and live your life. Come back to it fresh. Enjoy the weekend.
> D
Posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 23:53:01
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 19, 2004, at 20:05:23
babble open is a chat room on Yahoo. You can get to it from a link at the bottom of this page. I check in and out over there some days between 5 and 7 West Coast time. I hope I run into you sometime.
D
Posted by crushedout on March 20, 2004, at 0:03:31
In reply to Babble Open, posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 23:53:01
that's really cool. i had no idea it existed.
Posted by crushedout on March 20, 2004, at 15:51:42
In reply to Re: Babble Open » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 20, 2004, at 0:03:31
I feel so much better. I'm coping really well and Monday doesn't seem like it's an eternity away anymore.Just wanted to let y'all know. Thanks, everyone, for your feedback and support as always.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 21, 2004, at 13:18:46
In reply to Re: Babble Open » DaisyM, posted by crushedout on March 20, 2004, at 0:03:31
Ok, I was going to try out the "babble-open" chat thing, so I joined the group, clicked the chat link, and waited...
The chat window opened up and said, "Logging lonelygirl_12345 into the chat system..." but then NOTHING HAPPENS! The window just stays blank, and the "chatters" list remains empty. If I type something in and click send, what I typed disappears from the input box, but it doesn't appear in the chat window.
This happened yesterday afternoon, last night, and again today... I have a good connection... Why isn't it working???
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2004, at 15:11:01
In reply to Anyone else having problems with the chat?, posted by lonelygirl on March 21, 2004, at 13:18:46
Yahoo likes to have fun with users, I think. It often takes me a few tries (over and over all in a row) before it works. :(
Posted by terrics on March 22, 2004, at 7:57:17
In reply to crash after a great week, posted by crushedout on March 18, 2004, at 18:35:52
Well now it's Monday and you can hash this out with your T. It really a shame that you had so many days ruined. I didn't read all the posts. Did you call her? Good luck today. I hope you plan on discussing her behavior with her. terrics
Posted by crushedout on March 22, 2004, at 8:01:59
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » crushedout, posted by terrics on March 22, 2004, at 7:57:17
yes, i get to see her in a couple hours. actually, thanks to you guys, my weekend was pretty good. i managed to get myself out of the depression i fell into. isn't that amazing? i think it is. also, i didn't call her, but i emailed her and she replied. that helped also. but i am going to "confront" her today on the stuff she said to me, which i don't think was very helpful, and i'm inclined to think was even hostile. hmm. i dunno.> Well now it's Monday and you can hash this out with your T. It really a shame that you had so many days ruined. I didn't read all the posts. Did you call her? Good luck today. I hope you plan on discussing her behavior with her. terrics
Posted by crushedout on March 25, 2004, at 23:41:22
In reply to Re: crash after a great week » terrics, posted by crushedout on March 22, 2004, at 8:01:59
Well, I saw my T three times again this week. On Monday when I went in we talked about my crash and I told her that I thought she must have been mad at me because I experienced her as hostile and contemptuous. She said she hadn't been mad at all and can't remember ever feeling contempt for me. I told her about how her email helped and especially the support I got from you guys here. And I tried to explain my confusion from this thread to her (although I didn't show her the posts, even though I'd printed them out -- I chickened out -- besides, they were too long).
Anyway, she said that I definitely wasn't "too needy," that I was as needy as I was, but that there would be times she wouldn't be able to fill my needs. I explained that the problem for me was that I was always fretting over how much I dare ask for because I don't want to make her mad at me the way she was that weekend I called her during a crisis. Not only because I don't want her to be mad at me (which of course I don't) but also because then *I* suffered because she would meet even *fewer* of my needs the way she did the week after that phone call.
She definitely seemed to realize the difficulty of the situation I'm in, of being very scared to ask for things and not knowing where the line is, but we haven't figured out how to resolve this problem yet.
I'm still pretty confused but I'm glad she sees the bind I'm in.
Posted by fallsfall on March 26, 2004, at 10:56:02
In reply to UPDATE II, posted by crushedout on March 25, 2004, at 23:41:22
You did a great job, crushedout! It sounds like you were really honest and talked about what it all meant to you. I'm really glad that she understands your dilemma, and I'm sure the two of you will be able to come up with a solution that works for both of you.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 26, 2004, at 11:16:37
In reply to Re: UPDATE II » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on March 26, 2004, at 10:56:02
Good for you. I'm glad you talked about how you feel about needing her and worrying about her response. Even if you did not come to solutions, you did a great job!
(Applause, applause, and cheers for crushedout!)
gg
Posted by DaisyM on March 26, 2004, at 12:27:50
In reply to UPDATE II, posted by crushedout on March 25, 2004, at 23:41:22
Good for you! I'm glad you are working on this and she recognizes your need for help. I wish I had the golden phrase that clearly explains that line. I struggle ALL THE TIME with how much need to show and then when I do, I run from it. My Therapist says pretty much what yours did: Your needs are your needs. It is OK to have them.
The test, I guess, will be the next crisis and if you feel safe enough to call.
I'm cheering for you.
Daisy
Posted by crushedout on March 28, 2004, at 18:12:23
In reply to Re: UPDATE II, posted by DaisyM on March 26, 2004, at 12:27:50
Posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 21:26:24
In reply to Re: Anyone else having problems with the chat? » lonelygirl, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2004, at 15:11:01
Posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 21:48:13
In reply to How come nobody is ever in the chat room? (nm), posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 21:26:24
This is the end of the thread.
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