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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tinydancer on February 29, 2004, at 2:25:00
There is a number of people here besides myself who are struggling with the feelings they have for their T. I haven't been here all that long so it can be that I overlooked a similar post, but I am wondering if anyone who has been in this situation, and actually *did* have a sexual relationship with their T would be willing to share their experiences. How it began, how you and your T dealt with what happened and choices you made and how it ended if it did. I would appreciate hearing from you.
Posted by sb417 on March 1, 2004, at 1:12:09
In reply to To those who have crossed the line, posted by tinydancer on February 29, 2004, at 2:25:00
Tinydancer,
You CAN'T cross the line. It's unethical, illegal, and it would be absolutely devastating for everyone involved. I hope you have an excellent therapist who will help you to verbalize and understand your feelings without ever acting on them. I know this isn't what you want to hear right now. Sometimes patients use erotic transferences in order to avoid dealing with other issues. I know it must be very difficult for you now, but some day you will look back and feel relief that you weren't able to have a sexual relationship with your therapist. I am so grateful that my therapist never took advantage of my vulnerability. If he had, he wouldn't be able to help me, and then, what would I do? Believe me, as you get older, you will discover that nearly everywhere you turn, there is always someone who is more than willing to exploit you, sexually, financially and otherwise. Be glad that there are a handful of people in the world who sincerely want to help you.
Posted by KindGirl on March 1, 2004, at 9:08:34
In reply to Re: To those who have crossed the line » tinydancer, posted by sb417 on March 1, 2004, at 1:12:09
I wanted to add something here for you since I noticed that not many have responded.
No, I have not crossed the line with my T. Boy do I dream about her...about it...but no I haven't acted on it thank God!I do want to share with you when I DID cross the line and that was in high school with my favorite teacher. He was my music teacher for 3 years and was like a therapist for me in a way. My parents were never there for me and he was...he listened, he came to my volleyball games (and now we all know that this was his predatory pattern but at the time I didn't know that).....and then it happened.
My senior year we had a sexual relationship....during school even!!!! On field trips, on the bus....okay I will spare you the details...but....the infatuation with him was sooooooooooooooo strong and I feel those same feelings now for my t. I have not had these feelings since the teacher.
We did cross the line....and the sex was horrible. He was a selfish lover, he was not good at it, his mouth had a funny metal taste to it from dental work I guess....and the fantasy was ruined. I wished I never did it. Yes, it was like a dream come true...the cool teacher you think is hot wants you and you guys actually "do it"....but the reality was a nightmare.
And the icing on the cake was I had to testify in court against him because right after me he did it with a 15 year old and was arrested. I was the only girl who would come forward. Of course I was devastated because I "loved" him and thought I was the only one and found out there were many many others....
I wanted to share something that happened in my life because even when I do fantasize about my T. or anyone else I trust in this way, I remember the experience in high school and would NEVER do it again. It ruined everything.
Hope this helped and didn't hurt you. Thanks for listening.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 1, 2004, at 10:43:33
In reply to To those who have crossed the line, posted by tinydancer on February 29, 2004, at 2:25:00
the line I have NOT crossed hut WOULD. I firmly believe that sometines it is NOT transferance..and sometimes it can work..as RISK and sometimes not and it can blow ip in your face. IF your willing to RISK and know what youre risking its fine. I plan to sooner or later..I wanna wait till close to the end of therapy or for him to make the move..keep us posted..you know, sometimes IT DOES work
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 11:14:43
In reply to Re: To those who have crossed the line » tinydancer, posted by Fallen4myT on March 1, 2004, at 10:43:33
I would never ever want to do anything that could hurt my therapist in the slightest, much less put his license and career in jeopardy.
But maybe that's because I love him (as in care deeply for him). I also don't desire him, but I can't imagine that if I did desire him it would outweigh my caring for him. He's done so much for me.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 1, 2004, at 12:54:12
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 11:14:43
Well by what do I mean by working if you meant my post..working as in for BOTH of you and as two adults the T would know the RISK he/she is taking also and make the decision to do what is best for themselves also. Sometimes a relationship outweighs a job ..not always but I have known T's who have left the profession to be with someone...Would mine take that risk I doubt it..its rare but.....things can and do happen and sometimes happy endings happen in odd places. Like some people DO win the lottery and most of us don't..Risk is involved in all we do and affects all around us thats why IMO its smart to make sure ALL concerned make the decision. Thats what I meant
Posted by terrics on March 1, 2004, at 15:02:05
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » Dinah, posted by Fallen4myT on March 1, 2004, at 12:54:12
I also think that I would not cross the line. If I really think about it we would both get hurt, but as selfish as this sounds I would be the one to really suffer. My T. is a big boundry crosser as it is. Last week when I tried to switch Ts. she said she thought she needed me more than I needed her. What a mess. What AM I doing. terrics
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 15:59:09
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » Fallen4myT, posted by terrics on March 1, 2004, at 15:02:05
That sounds awful, Terrics. I can't believe she said that. I hope you aren't staying for her sake.
The therapist you consulted was pretty clear what she thought about the situation, wasn't she? What did your therapist answer about all that?
Posted by terrics on March 1, 2004, at 19:53:38
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » terrics, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 15:59:09
Hi Dinah, Things are out of control. I never knew about boundary crossings.
I did call another T, but she never got back to me. I think you mean someone else on the board. I do need to talk to someone else, but I don't know how to go about it. I do not want to get in this mess again. Maybe when I start DBT [end of March] I'll find someone else. They told me I could use my T for individual and someone else does group. Maybe if I tell them I do not want to use her they can dig up someone else. thanks for the insight. terrics
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 7:43:33
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » Dinah, posted by terrics on March 1, 2004, at 19:53:38
Sorry I confused you with someone else. I think two people got talked out of leaving at once.
Well, if you weren't starting DBT at the end of March, I'd suggest that you did get a consultation. But you maybe can get some input from your DBT instructors. I know that DBT groups are in favor of clients also having individual therapists, but if the instructors think your therapist is crossing boundnaries, they might be able to help you find a new one.
In the meantime, it sounds like you know where the boundaries should be, even if your therapist doesn't. Remind her if you need to. :(
Posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:10:02
In reply to Not exactly an answer to your question but...*MT*, posted by KindGirl on March 1, 2004, at 9:08:34
Thanks for your input, Kind Girl.
Your story about being taken advantage of in high school is bone chilling. What a horror to know that there are predators like that in our children's schools! Unbelievable. I cannot even begin to imagine how this devestated your life.
However, I think it is important to clarify the difference between being a child and taken advantage of and being an adult who is acting out of their own wishes. The fact is I know my T is way too dedicated to helping me that he would never cross the line, even if he wanted to.
It is possible to be attracted to someone and love someone without it being wrong, being transference and so on. Obviously a therapeutic relationship presents a different set of rules and risks.
I know if something ever did happen while he was my therapist, that it has high potential to be damaging to both the therapy and his and my life, but I definitley do not see my feelings as being wrong or pure transference. He is a super guy, with super qualities. I'm rambling here but I just want to draw some lines between experiences.
Posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:14:43
In reply to Re: To those who have crossed the line » tinydancer, posted by Fallen4myT on March 1, 2004, at 10:43:33
Yup, yup...
100% behind you here. I get rather irritated with all this finger pointing about transference. It is possible to have feelings, normal emotional reactions without symptomizing and categorizing it. I love the lottery ticket metaphor. That is absolutely how I see it too. I'm not saying I believe that I'm holding a winning ticket but I do believe that it is possible...That one could make it work....But that it is taking a huge risk and one that could end up being extremely devestating at that. Absolutely.
My standing offer with my T is begging for just one night. (I am DEFINITLEY NOT too proud to beg it would seem...)I can get totally carried away by every last detail of how awesome it could be. And I truly believe that it probably would be pretty damn awesome. If he didn't have the life he has, with a wife and children, I totally believe that there could have been a chance there.
Wah wah...do you hear the whining in my voice...I feel so pathetic.
Posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:19:16
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 11:14:43
I would never want to hurt my T in any way, shape or form. The unprecendented kindness he shows me, I would have to be Satan to want to do anything to degrade that.
But if something were to happen between us, that would mean that both him and I were taking responsibility for our actions and the possible consequences, thus meaning that I was not in total fault for any effect that choice has on his career, family, and so on.
Posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 12:52:38
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2004, at 11:14:43
Absolutely great points there, Dinah.
Here's my stance on it, as it looks from my immediate perspective:
Yes, I am sexually attracted to my pdoc (although not my therapist), and yes, I believe it is something other than pure transference. He is, physically, My Type - the kind of man who looks and moves and behaves and speaks in a way that always turns me on. Beyond that, however, there is "transference" -- he's in a position to take care of me, limited in that it's only psychopharmacotherapy, but still a position of nurturing, if you will. That means that I'm looking at him from the perspective of vulnerability. Whether or not I would have been just as sexually attacted to him had we met at a party, that fact alone skews the whole equation.
Secondly, even if I could get past the visceral knowledge that KindGirl's experience is directly analogous to my current situation, I know that any sexual contact would be devastating to me. I'd be looking for him to carry that caretaking role into the bedroom, and that's not realistic. The let down would be devastating to me.
And, as Dinah says, the consequences for him would be absolutely catastrophic. He'd lose his license, he'd lose his career, he'd probably face incarceration, and he'd lose his ability to serve and heal people. All that for a quick roll in the hay? I do care for him enough to recognize that as an insurmountable obstacle to any sexual contact, or even a social relationship. No matter how satisfying I think it would be to sit around with him and some of my friends, sipping wine and talking about everything from sociology to stupid cat habits, it would destroy him in so many ways.
So, I do fantisize about him. I do imagine scenarios in which we cross that line. But I also know that it is a line we will never cross, never be able to cross, and I trust him never to try to cross that line, as well.
Great point, Dinah, about the damage such an act would have on the other party concerned. Thank you for bringing it up.
Posted by Crooked Heart on March 2, 2004, at 12:58:58
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » Dinah, posted by terrics on March 1, 2004, at 19:53:38
I wish I could give you some advice, terrics, about finding someone else to talk to, but I don't know how things work where you are.
Do you think that your therapist's sudden change of tack to CBT was because she thought she might keep you as a client that way when you said you were leaving?
Have I got this right?...She's told you about her previous drug addiction (you've not had a problem with drugs, so it wasn't to show she understood or anything). She's told you about her son's mental illness -- why?? She told you about how she wanted once to throw her baby out of the window -- . She got you to give her a lift to pick up her car. At least she's being honest when she says she needs you more than you need her, but she should be seeing another therapist, not making thing worse for you.
Thank goodness that you are so well aware that your t doesn't seem to know the meaning of the word boundary. I don't see why you should put up with another day of this, never mind a month.
Has anyone out there got any suggestions/advice? As I said, I don't how things work in the US, but I'm sure there must be something.Thinking about you and worried. (((terrics)))
Posted by Crooked Heart on March 2, 2004, at 13:32:46
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » terrics, posted by Crooked Heart on March 2, 2004, at 12:58:58
Sorry, maybe this is the wrong thread. Terrics hasn't crossed any line, her therapist is doing so.
Posted by terrics on March 2, 2004, at 15:00:48
In reply to Re: It depends on what you mean by working » terrics, posted by Crooked Heart on March 2, 2004, at 12:58:58
Posted by gardenergirl on March 2, 2004, at 18:24:34
In reply to Re: To those who have crossed the line » Fallen4myT, posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:14:43
I think it is absolutely true that a peson's T could be the one they were meant to be with, or at least someone they could fall in love with if they had met under different circumstances. We meet our mates in all kinds of places. But in my opinion, the bottom line is, the relationship, however much it was meant to be, *cannot* happen while the therapy relationship is going on. It is completely unethical, and would be doing damage to the client, whether it was intended or even perceived or not.
It's very sad that a person might meet their mate and discover that they cannot act on it. Although this is not directly relevant, I once did an intake on someone who I would LOVE to be friends with. It's very sad to me that a friendship with her would not be appropriate as long as she is receiving services at my center. Although I am not her T, I was involved in her case.
There are strict rules about extra-therapy relationships between T's and clients. These are in place for two main reasons: first, to protect the client from damaging boundary violations. Second, it *does* allow for a relationship to develop between a T and a client, but *only* after two years have past after the termination of the therapy relationship. Even then, it is recommended that such a relationship not occur, for you can never "take back" what has happened in therapy.
So, if it truly is meant to be, then therapy should be terminated between the T and the client as soon as possible. The client can then see another T. After two years have past, if it is meant to be, then it is acceptable and less risky for both the client and the T to explore a romantic relationship.
This is what has been hammered into my head in school, and what I believe wholeheartedly. Knowing this does not take away the potential pain of knowing that what might be a beautiful relationship must either wait or must never happen, but it is what we face when we begin therapy, both as the client and the T.
gg
Posted by noa on March 2, 2004, at 19:00:14
In reply to Re: Not exactly an answer to your question but...*MT*, posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:10:02
Your feelings are not bad feelings. They're just the feelings you have. I don't think transference eliminates the real interactions between people in the here and now, so you're right, it doesn't have to mean that all your feelings for the therapist are due to transference.
What would be bad is for the therapist to cross the boundary to allow a real social or sexual relationship to occur. It isn't bad for you to have the wish. But it is a big and important responsibility for the therapist to protect you and not act on your wish. Even after you finish therapy.
I think Kind Girl's story is helpful--the therapist/patient relationship is analogous to the teacher/student relationship in a lot of ways, even with adjustments for being an adult.
If your therapist is skilled, he will be able to help you see what you can discover and learn about yourself from exploring in therapy the wishes and feelings you feel, but not to act on it.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 2, 2004, at 21:27:14
In reply to Re: To those who have crossed the line » Fallen4myT, posted by tinydancer on March 2, 2004, at 12:14:43
Oh thank you for understanding what I am saying I feel the same obviously. I think we all have a right to our opinions and feelings and not everything is black and white and transferance..even my T has told me the seat you take does not always make it transferance...so thank you for GETTING my message..sometimnes on these boards I feel like a leper
hugs
> Yup, yup...
>
> 100% behind you here. I get rather irritated with all this finger pointing about transference. It is possible to have feelings, normal emotional reactions without symptomizing and categorizing it. I love the lottery ticket metaphor. That is absolutely how I see it too. I'm not saying I believe that I'm holding a winning ticket but I do believe that it is possible...That one could make it work....But that it is taking a huge risk and one that could end up being extremely devestating at that. Absolutely.
>
> My standing offer with my T is begging for just one night. (I am DEFINITLEY NOT too proud to beg it would seem...)I can get totally carried away by every last detail of how awesome it could be. And I truly believe that it probably would be pretty damn awesome. If he didn't have the life he has, with a wife and children, I totally believe that there could have been a chance there.
>
> Wah wah...do you hear the whining in my voice...I feel so pathetic.
This is the end of the thread.
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