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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by Medusa on February 26, 2004, at 11:40:03
In reply to Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by Pandabear on February 24, 2004, at 20:46:19
> I have always been one that eats until I cannot eat anymore..rather than stopping when I feel full..
>Panda, what's important is self-care. "Food issues" are never about food per se ... it's about feeding yourself, taking care of You. Sometimes food is the appropriate (or best match) comfort, and that's A-OK.
If you'd like info about specific resources (a discussion list for example) based on the it's-not-about-food approach, feel free to get my e-mail address from Dinah. (sorry, I haven't set up a babble addy yet.)
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 11:51:52
In reply to whether it's binge eating or not ... » Pandabear, posted by Medusa on February 26, 2004, at 11:40:03
Thank you so much...You know, Im not sure at all that i have an eating disorder...Im pretty sure I dont..but, I hate saying that i do or dont because I dont know what it looks like..I have gotten many thoughts about it though from different posts..and from whats being described..I dont think I have it..Im going to ask my therapist a bout it next wednesday though...to see what she has to say...And, yes..Im having to learn how to take care of myself and to depend on myself rather than others..so its hard but Im trying my best to take care of me...:) thanks...:)
PB
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 14:44:31
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Racer, posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 11:35:57
I guess I'm just not communicating well these days. I had hoped that I'd expressed an apology in my last post, albeit with excuses for myself. Let me try again:
I'm sorry I offended you. My feelings are my problem, and I'm sorry that I expressed them without thinking about their possible effect on you. Good luck with your program for recovery.
Posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 15:08:45
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Hello Racer, pardon me for butting in here, but I was wondering if you were speaking from experience or offering your opinion of eating disorders? You seem to be knowledgeable about nutrition.
antigua
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:37:29
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by Elle2021 on February 25, 2004, at 22:58:53
> > I will be back soon...:) I will probably start posting on friday..
>
> I look forward to then. :)
> ElleYeah, I was worried you were going to stop, too.
All the best, CH
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:50:38
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
women are beautiful when they live comfortably within their own skin.
>
>It makes me both sad and angry to see that, knowing that some of them are so much more beautiful than they'll ever really know, and still suffer over something as ridiculous as a few pounds that actually make them *more* beautiful.
>
> When I hear about young women doing anything that I perceive as falling into the trap of trying to reach unrealistic physical appearance, or eating only at night to keep their weight down, I over react.I wish I could write as well as you. But what you say there pushes *my* buttons. It makes me so angry especially when it's not just young women, it's nine-year-olds. Which was the almighty authority that said only size 10 is beautiful?
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 16:47:17
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 15:08:45
Unfortunately, I am speaking (well, typing) from experience. I've battled with my weight issues for most of my life, and, while I've gained a lot of intellectual understanding of them, I can't say I've won the war. The rational part of that is all well and good, but at this point I have to try to learn to move past that, into the more visceral understanding of it all. That's the hardest part for me.
As for understanding nutrition, I have a certain knowledge in that area, largely from working with animals. With animals, it's a whole lot easier to see the effects of dietary changes. There's not so much existential angst involved, so it's a little purer view of the whole picture. I've extrapolated what I've seen in animals and paid attention -- as best I could -- to similar changes in myself. As a statistical model, that's worthless, of course. Sample sizes of one don't count. On the other hand, I wish someone had been able to use the knowledge I now have in such a way that it could have helped me twenty five years ago. That frustration, that what I now know seems so natural and so glaring and yet no one ever seemed to see it, is probably why eating and weight topics are so powerful for me.
Anyway, I'm always happy to pass on anything I know on the subject, so if you think it could help you in any way, please feel free to ask. It's something I feel strongly about -- obviously -- and while it's definitely of limited value, it's yours for the asking.
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 17:01:12
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:50:38
If I go into all of what I have to say on this subject, it make this whole post unsuitable for the Psychology board, but here's a little tiny bite for you, because you're absolutely right. It isn't just young women, it is 9 year olds, and it is middle aged women and it is senior aged women. The size 10 model as the proper size in any meaningful way is wrong. Did you know that clothing companies have changed their definitions of size, by the way? During periods when big breasts are in style, the bra companies make smaller cups so that women can feel happier about buying more bras. Clothing manufacturers make the size ten about the same dimensions now as the size 16 to 18 back when the standards were first put in place. (That's why, if you sew, you'll be using about four sizes larger in a pattern than you buy off the rack.) When a woman gets to buy a size 10 instead of a size 12, she feels good and buys more. It's a conditioned response thing, and the manufacturers and retails know how to play the game.
And at the same time, you've got the corporate welfare programs that produce more corn than we can ever use, leading to corn syrup in everything, the obesity epidemic, *and* a "thin is the only acceptable body type" construct.
The bottom line is this: we are being told that what we are isn't good enough. It happens with men, too, although it's usually in other arenas, so we can't say it's just women who suffer from it. On the other hand, it *is* a major issue for many women, and it's hardly ever addressed in truly constructive ways. Instead, we're seeing pressure on small children -- who really need that nutrition and whose eating habits are being shaped for the rest of their lives -- to conform to an unreasonable standard.
Heheheh, I know, I know, but it just all came out...
(Oh, yeah, and while the first part -- about sizing -- sounds mostly like the sort of crank conspiracy stuff you hear sometimes, it really isn't. I sew a lot of clothes, and I have a lot of patterns from my mother and grandmother, and I've read about pattern size standards. There really was a standard agreed upon -- although I can't remember which decade, maybe 1940s -- and the patterns are sized according to it, although that's finally starting to change. I sew -- usually -- about a size 12 or 14 for myself. Off the rack, I'm a size 6.)
Posted by obSession on February 26, 2004, at 17:23:14
In reply to Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by Pandabear on February 24, 2004, at 20:46:19
HI
A therapist once said that sometimes you keep eating or feel the need regardless of your weight or if u have a disorder to try and fill an emptiness ...which is an emotional thing!
it make sense to me ,maybe it will make sense to u too :)
Posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
> Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
It bothers me when I see *any* body type being disparaged. Thin can be very beautiful.
I know some women who eat a lot and are just naturally tiny. They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 17:32:49
In reply to Re: Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by obSession on February 26, 2004, at 17:23:14
Ok...Thank you to everyone who has been posting things to me but I think this hits it on the head for me...you are right that it is an emotional thing for some people...I dont think that I have an eating disorder..ive been thinking about it for a while now and I do eat a lot more when im anxious and worried and obsessing ..which I have been doing a lot lately. Eating is something that comforts me and its something that is within my reach and that I can control..whereas what i might be worry about at the time or obsessing over isnt..am I making sense? I think Im ok. Thanks!
Pandabear
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 17:39:41
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Racer, I accept your apology...I think that I sent a post to you when you had just sent me yours so it sounded to you like I wasnt accepting? I dont know. Anyway, I thank you for rephrasing things. I understand that buttons can be pushed and that we can say things we might not really mean when that happens..but all is well.
THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THINGS UP! :)
PandaBear
This is all im going to respond to on this topic...I dont want there to be any upheaval from anyone who might think im obsessing over this.(and I could) All is well...and I want to keep it this way..Goodluck with everything. <><
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 18:15:58
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
> > Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
>
> It bothers me when I see *any* body type being disparaged. Thin can be very beautiful.
> I know some women who eat a lot and are just naturally tiny. They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
Let me try to rephrase that:For:
> > Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
Read:
"Being thin is not synonymous with being beautiful. Thin people and plump people have an equal chance of being beautiful. Beauty has many shapes and forms, each as valuable as all others. Body type is not the sole criteria on which that beauty rests, and any body type can be equally beautiful."
I guess I'm just not able to express it. I didn't mean that "Thin people are not beautiful." I meant that people could be beautiful without being thin. I hope that helps.
Posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 18:34:05
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » gabbix2, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 18:15:58
aha! that made all the difference. Thanks Racer
This text communication can be so trying :(
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Racer,
I'm sorry that this topic is touchy for you. I understand that. But, at the same time, something you said hurt my feelings."Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful."
I have been thin my whole life. Not due to an eating disorder, simply due to genes. It hurts my feelings when you say thin is not beautiful. I do not think I am ugly.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:22:11
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
>They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
I just wanted to thank you for making that point. I was really thin throughout highschool and it did hurt to have people say those things to me. What Racer said kind of brought all those feelings back.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:25:23
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
Sorry Racer, I didn't finish the entire thread before I posted to you. When I posted I hadn't read your clarification on the statement about thin not being beautiful. I'm sorry.
Elle
Posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 22:38:34
In reply to Not butting in a-tall » antigua, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 16:47:17
I guess the reason I was asking was because if you were speaking from experience, my experiences are so very different from yours.
For me, the issue has never been about a quest for thinness. Furthermore, my experiences with eating disorders are centered on emotional issues that don't have anything to do with food. It is a coping mechanism I learned at a young age to deal w/my emotional problems, to punish myself for the way I feel about myself.
It has nothing to do w/society's idea of beauty, it has to do with how I feel about myself. It is the symptom and not the cause, and it is important for me to work on the issues that underlie what I do to myself. I don't passively accept that I have this problem; I struggle and work with it every day. I think if it was all about food, I'd be able to handle it better.
I just thought your view was an interesting one that was so very different from my own. I think we're both right, for us, we're just different.
antigua
Posted by Racer on February 27, 2004, at 11:03:41
In reply to Re: Not butting in a-tall » Racer, posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 22:38:34
I know that my "issues" aren't about trying to be thin enough to be acceptable. It's one part self-punishment, two parts distorted body image based on my essential sense of failure in every aspect of my life (even those where empirical data proves I succeeded), one part taking on my mother's craziness, two teaspoons of screaming for help, and a dash of trying to disappear from the world.
So, it wasn't about food for me, either, but it did start out as a sort of, "I'm going to do something positive for myself by losing weight and getting in shape." I meant it, thinking that losing weight and getting in shape would improve my self-esteem enough that I could start feeling more successful. The problem with that, was that my weight wasn't the problem. And the real problems, mostly the failure parts, turned out to overwhelm me. See, most of the time my failures are apparent in going too far, rather than giving up. I set unrealistic expectations for myself, then punish myself because I couldn't meet them. So, diet and exercise didn't become the road to a healthy body to house my healthy mind -- it became another way to punish myself for my failures.
Mind you, this was 26 years ago. I'm still fighting it. Three minutes after a depressive episode starts for me, I start to "self-medicate" by trying to lose weight. The only way I can keep any control over those impulses is to keep my weight above a certain magic number. Above that number, I don't go into the cycle; below it, the eating patterns are triggered easily, and the emotional turmoil that I identify with that state start taking over. (Taking over in the sense that starvation does lead to cognitive impairment, at least in my case I know that's true.)
So, eating disorders are very much more complex than food, but it still hurts me to see some of my most beautiful friends, those with bodies I think are so scrumptious, so voluptous, so beautiful, worrying that they don't match up to the Supermodels. Yes, I have had friends who were naturally slender, or even skinny. For that matter, everyone in my family -- except me -- is built tall and lean, and they look very thin. That's one body type, and it's lovely on those who have it naturally. My body type, round and feminine, is often lovely on other people. (I can't say I've ever *liked* my body's appearance nude. But I've seen other women who are said to share my build, and they're lovely.) There's such a wide range of shapes in this world, and it's painful for me to watch beautiful examples of one shape punish themselves for not being another.
Lots of rambling, but I'm trying very hard not to get into another cycle of offending everyone with careless communication. What I'm saying, is that we're not so far off as you might have thought.
Posted by antigua on February 27, 2004, at 13:54:45
In reply to Actually... » antigua, posted by Racer on February 27, 2004, at 11:03:41
I didn't think we were actually so far off the mark either but I didn't want to presuppose that you were like me IN ANY WAY! (One of me is certainly enough in this world).
O.K., you're way too negative about yourself (this is said with a nice smile on my face). Don't be so hard on yourself. I'm terribly hard on myself, but I really try now to accept that I am great just the way I am! (sure). No, really, what I mean is that I have come to accept myself as is. I have lots and lots of good qualities but there are some things I will just never be and I have to forgive myself for that. I have accomplished many things in my life but I tend to dismiss them as not good enough, or I should have done better, etc. This leads me not to fear of failure, but fear of success. My own fears have kept me from accomplishing what I believe I really can. I feel like I've been coming out of this huge cloud--it's more than just my depression; it seems as if ever since I had kids I've forgotten who I am and what I want to do with my life. My kids are a little older now and there is a little something left over for me now. Sounds selfish, but I can't be the best mother/person I can be if I don't take care of myself.
My eating disorders are triggered by emotional abandonment and what happened to me as a kid. While I struggle with all this in therapy, the outward indicator is my weight. When I'm not struggling, I don't tend to focus on what I eat, or don't eat, whichever the case may be (I can go both ways).
Does this make any sense?
Also, I have a daughter and believe you me, my focus on her is a healthy, active body and not necessarily what she eats. She's into sports, which is great, and she gets a sense of accomplishment that doesn't come from what she looks like--at least right now. I have to be careful I don't overdo the body image talk w/her for fear I will push her in the opposite direction.
But I see little girls, 1st graders, who talk about being on diets and I just cringe.
Please be nice to yourself,
antigua
Posted by Racer on February 27, 2004, at 16:37:37
In reply to Re: Actually2... » Racer, posted by antigua on February 27, 2004, at 13:54:45
Sorry, I'm laughing so hard at something you wrote, about me being too hard on myself. When my pdoc said something about "perfectionists tend to do that," my first reaction was, "But I'm *not* a perfectionist, because I never do it quite right!" You can see why I'm laughing, can't you?
About the mother/daughter thing: Right now, I've lost just over 45 pounds since my latest depressive episode started. I know my mother is concerned about that weight loss. She made it clear by asking me one day what size jeans I was wearing that day. I must have gotten her communication genes, right? The other day, we went to an event together. My mother, who is -- remember -- concerned about my fairly dramatic weight loss, spent an inordinate amount of time pointing out women who "should have been at the gym instead of sitting around here" to me, and, at lunch, commented on the size of the portions, and said she, herself, had never been "an eating machine, because she'd never had a weight problem." Now, I know my mother a bit better than you do ;-) so I can tell you that she didn't mean the message I heard. I heard, "good people don't have weight problems," and I heard, "self-restrict your eating so you can be a good person," and I heard, "you aren't a good enough person, because you've had so many weight problems." That's nothing like what I *know* was in her head, which was focussing on weight related issues because her concern about my weight kept them in the forefront of her mind. Does that make sense?
I *know* it intellectually now. As a kid, as a teen, etc, I didn't and internalized all the things she ever said around the subject. In my late teens, one of her friends -- one of the only people ever to address my weight problems at all to me -- said that my mother was also suffering from a disordered eating habit and a fear of getting fat. It took years for that to sink it, but it finally did, and I can see my mother more clearly now. It helps, but it doesn't undo the damage that's accumulated over the years. THAT is a daunting task!
Thank you for telling me your experiences. It's such a difficult issue for me, all the way around, and it's gone on so long now that it *feels* natural and comforting to me, like a "lovey" blanket.
And I absolutely cringe when I hear about little kids "on diets," too. What little kids need isn't diets to restrict their weight, they need to learn to play! The more trees they climb, the less the chance of their developing weight problems. (And with climbing trees comes falling out of them, too. It's natural, it happens, and it's painful -- but it's not necessarily bad.) That's a soapbox issue for me, though, because my mother did play with me and I think it's what gives me whatever strength I have.
(Radio report the other day said the average child in this country watches 2 - 3 hours of TV per day? I watched in the ballpark of 4 - 6 hours, but my mother watched with me, and we did things while we watched. My mother would pick me up from school in the afternoon, when I was in grammar school, and race me home. She never let me win -- if I was going to win, I'd have to earn it. Some days we had walking races, instead of running. In other words, she played with me, she fed me as well as she could (long, tangled story there), and now, never-mind-how-many years later, I have tools from all that which allow me to assist myself.
Yeah, that's a rantlet for you, but thanks again for sharing your experiences -- and the healthy approach you're forming with your daughter.
Posted by obSession on February 27, 2004, at 19:02:50
In reply to Re: Therapist mentioned binge eating... » obSession, posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 17:32:49
kewl ....ye eating is really comforting i am so jealous of thin people who can eat and eat and eat and still look like models it drives me mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i love eating i can honestly say that .......i constantly eat and smoke and am trying almost to fill a void inside of me.
Posted by antigua on February 28, 2004, at 10:36:36
In reply to GET BACK IN MY MIRROR!!! » antigua, posted by Racer on February 27, 2004, at 16:37:37
I have a lot to say, but I have kid duties. Will write later!
Thanks,
antigua
Posted by obSession on February 28, 2004, at 13:57:00
In reply to Re: Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by obSession on February 27, 2004, at 19:02:50
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2004, at 0:40:34
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
This is the end of the thread.
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