![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 19, 2004, at 6:33:00
In reply to Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow, posted by crushedout on February 18, 2004, at 19:40:56
Good luck today, crushedout.
Sending love and support to you.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 7:32:21
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 18, 2004, at 21:56:00
Crushedout,
I spent 8 1/2 years in therapy with her and the whole time I was very dependent. She was like a Mommy to me. I thought she was wonderful and would save me. I have abandonment issues and had trouble with vacations and things like that. So we had done a LOT of talking about how much I needed her and couldn't survive without her, etc.
Occassionally she would say things like "I don't know if I'm helping you anymore" or "I think you have learned everything I have to teach you". Of course, I would panic and think she was going to kick me out. But because of this dynamic, I don't think that she felt that she had the option of bringing up that she thought I should change to someone else. I mean, she tried to (like above) but I immediately panicked and then she spent the rest of the session trying to calm me down.
So I guess what I'm saying, is that I wish that I had been able to put the abandonment issues aside so that we could really talk about whether she was helping me or not. It was my wall that made the discussion impossible. I know that she would have been honest with me. The question was whether I could hear her honesty.
She took my case to her supervision group, and they said that if I wasn't doing better in 3 months that I should switch therapists. At that point I had been in immense pain for 2 months or more, and in a severe depression for over a year. On that day, I could agree with her that if I was still in this much pain in 3 months that I SHOULD switch (but of course, I still didn't want to). I wish that we had talked at that point about how a different therapy orientation might be helpful, or a new point of view.
I decided about a month later to look for a new therapist (it was the only way I could stop feeling extremely suicidal). I decided that staying with her and killing myself was not more painful than leaving. She thought I was leaving because she had taught me all that she could.
I interviewed 4 therapists. Most of them did make the comment that I should try to talk this out with her (even though I said that she supported my decision to leave). They all saw the transference that was at work. I couldn't see it - and she (a CBT therapist) couldn't/wouldn't work with it.
I did journal once about what she should do if she wanted me to leave - how she could word it so that I wouldn't completely freak out (it was something like her saying "I'm no longer able to help you because I don't have any more ways to try" - in other words, if she said that she was "at fault", that she had a limit that made her not able to help me - that I could handle that because then she wasn't rejecting me, she was taking the "blame" for the therapy ending.) She read all of my journalling, but she never mentioned that part.
I guess the bottom line is that if you can find some way to say (and be able to hear the answer) that if SHE feels that for some reason that SHE is not able to help you, that you want to know that. This would give her a chance to say that she is baffled by your case, or that she IS attracted to you and that makes it very hard for her to be objective. The hard line she is taking now may be a reaction where she is trying to re-establish boundaries where they have fallen down before. I guess I wish that you could give her a chance to say "*I* can't give you the therapy that you need".
If she thought that I could hear that, my old therapist would have told me that.
By the way, I've been seeing my new therapist for 8 months now. He's so different from her. Pschodynamic instead of CBT, lot of other differences. I'm making progress with him that I could never have made with her. He really is good. I still miss her sometimes - I miss the security she gave me. I was in to see my Pdoc on Tuesday - their offices are across the hall from each other. He asked if I had seen her in the waiting room yet. I haven't seen her since our last session (I left a phone message saying I wasn't coming back). I'm terrified to see her.
I think that she is a very good therapist. It was just that we got into this dependency thing that we couldn't get out of. I just needed someone *different* from her.
It is very hard to know what to do. You might also want to do a consultation - where you talk to a new therapist about your issues with your current therapist. I found that helpful.
Please let me know how it goes. And know that either staying to work things through, or leaving because you need someone else, are BOTH reasonable decisions. You just (just??) need to figure out which would help you more.
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 7:32:21
Thank you so much for sharing all of that, fallsfall. It was helpful for me.
I really don't think it's the attraction that's gotten in the way. There are two things on her end that I think may be making her act inappropriately with me: (1) she over-identifies with me and (2) she feels the need to take care of me. And when I called her over the weekend after I had a horrible fight with my mother, she didn't call me back, which I thought was weird. She emailed me the next day saying she "couldn't" call me but that I could email her about it. This felt to me like a sort of arbitrary boundary she was setting up and didn't really make sense to me.
On Tuesday, when I saw her, she blurted out a bunch of stuff about how my issues with my mother were so much like her issues with her mother. And then for some reason she told me that because of the way her mother treated her, she gets mad when people need her.
Isn't that a weird thing for a therapist to tell a client?
And that's only the beginning. So, I'm guessing that has something to do with why she's being so hard on me this week. I guess she's mad at me for needing her. But that seems like a real problem.
Anyway, I'll let you know what happens as soon as I'm capable of talking about it. I'm anticipating possibly being a total mess.
crushed
Posted by lookdownfish on February 19, 2004, at 8:06:05
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
Hi crushed.
I think her telling you stuff about her mother is a big red flag. She is bringing her issues to therapy and it should all be about you. And I agree, the boundaries do seem a bit arbitrary. I hope you can work it out. Good luck.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 9:12:15
In reply to Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow, posted by crushedout on February 18, 2004, at 19:40:56
((crushed)))
I'm sorry this is turning so ugly for you. I can't tell you what to do, but if she's helped you to see improvements in your life, maybe you should try to stick it out..
Let her know that you don't like feeling like you're manipulative (did I make that up??? projection perhaps?), or what ever it is that she seems to think you are...
I can tell you how my therapist would react if I were to tell him that I was going to switch.
He'd say, "Well, if that's what you think you need to do, then do it. But, we've made progress together.."
Are you thinking about this because you want her to beg you to stay (I've tried that before and my therapist doesn't do it. :(
Or is this overwhelming? If so, tell her..
I'd say, make a list of your motivations and other possibilities before you actually do decide to change. It's helped me a lot to see on paper why I am doing the things I am..
Good luck at your session hun. I'm sending positive and comforting vibes your way...
Posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 9:18:35
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
Woah! I didn't read this post before I pposted a response... I guess I should start doing that.
Her needs should NEVER come before yours!!!! Bottom line!! I'd have a lengthy discussion about that and how it made you feel with her....
That just doesn't seem right to me.
My therapist and I have a lot in common and he's lately been telling me childhood stories, I think as an attempt to make me feel more emotionally close to him. Both of our dads died the same way, ect... But, he never lets his feelings aobut his life get in the way of my therapy. Sometimes he has some "issues" but I bring them up and we discuss them...
Oh wait, something similar did happen to me. He didn't return my call because my dog was barking in the background and he thought I was pranking him. His issue, not mine. He brought it up in the next session, we discuss and cussed the matter. We've worked through it. He always returns my phone calls now. ALWAYS!!! Discuss this with her and tell her that her issues can't get in the way of your theraopy
And the part about being needy, GIVE ME A BREAK!!! I assume we all at times have runins with neediness. She has to assume you will too. That comment was out of line and stupid, IMHO!
]
Talk to her!
Posted by Rigby on February 19, 2004, at 9:43:17
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
Crushed,
This whole thing with your therapist's mother stuff is *so* outta line. In a sense, maybe it's good she's messing up so blatantly--it's hard to retain respect for someone who is so clearly violating boundaries. If I had an attraction to someone who behaved like this I would be getting over it in pretty darn short order.
*And* sure, go ahead and talk to her about how she should leave herself out of it but you know what? She should *know* this--you should not have to spend your freaking money educating her on the obvious.
My therapist, similar attraction dynamic, only ever said that she related to me, that she and I were very much alike--did not say that she overidentified with me nor did she *ever* go on about herself--at all. She sought supervision and told me she'd need to keep better boundaries. Basically, she cleaned her stuff up and made sure the focus was back on me. This woman is *messed* up.
It sounds like you've got tough stuff that you are and want to continue to deal with. You will probably have attachment stuff with any compassionate therapist and that's why you want one who's really skilled at being there but also not being *too* there--you're beginning to get a taste of how her crappy boundaries could really hurt you.
Therapy *can* be hard but this is becoming about it being hard because of the person administering it--in addition to the issues you're touching upon.
Rigby> Thank you so much for sharing all of that, fallsfall. It was helpful for me.
>
> I really don't think it's the attraction that's gotten in the way. There are two things on her end that I think may be making her act inappropriately with me: (1) she over-identifies with me and (2) she feels the need to take care of me. And when I called her over the weekend after I had a horrible fight with my mother, she didn't call me back, which I thought was weird. She emailed me the next day saying she "couldn't" call me but that I could email her about it. This felt to me like a sort of arbitrary boundary she was setting up and didn't really make sense to me.
>
> On Tuesday, when I saw her, she blurted out a bunch of stuff about how my issues with my mother were so much like her issues with her mother. And then for some reason she told me that because of the way her mother treated her, she gets mad when people need her.
>
> Isn't that a weird thing for a therapist to tell a client?
>
> And that's only the beginning. So, I'm guessing that has something to do with why she's being so hard on me this week. I guess she's mad at me for needing her. But that seems like a real problem.
>
> Anyway, I'll let you know what happens as soon as I'm capable of talking about it. I'm anticipating possibly being a total mess.
>
> crushed
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 10:23:29
In reply to Is The Bloom Off This Rose? » crushedout, posted by Rigby on February 19, 2004, at 9:43:17
yeah, you're right, rigby. this is helping me get over my crush. but ideally we would have gotten me over it without the whole therapeutic relationship breaking down, which is what it feel like is happening.i'm disillusioned now, and alone. i need a therapist and i don't have one. yes, i'm seeing what happens and it's not fun.
i've already got a call in to a new therapist. maybe she'll see her mistakes and we'll be able to work it out, but just in case, i've got backup. or i'm working on getting it.
i cut myself for the first time ever yesterday. since i quit drugs i don't have any way of hurting myself when things are bad so i started a new bad habit. not good.
> Crushed,
>
> This whole thing with your therapist's mother stuff is *so* outta line. In a sense, maybe it's good she's messing up so blatantly--it's hard to retain respect for someone who is so clearly violating boundaries. If I had an attraction to someone who behaved like this I would be getting over it in pretty darn short order.
>
> *And* sure, go ahead and talk to her about how she should leave herself out of it but you know what? She should *know* this--you should not have to spend your freaking money educating her on the obvious.
>
> My therapist, similar attraction dynamic, only ever said that she related to me, that she and I were very much alike--did not say that she overidentified with me nor did she *ever* go on about herself--at all. She sought supervision and told me she'd need to keep better boundaries. Basically, she cleaned her stuff up and made sure the focus was back on me. This woman is *messed* up.
>
> It sounds like you've got tough stuff that you are and want to continue to deal with. You will probably have attachment stuff with any compassionate therapist and that's why you want one who's really skilled at being there but also not being *too* there--you're beginning to get a taste of how her crappy boundaries could really hurt you.
>
> Therapy *can* be hard but this is becoming about it being hard because of the person administering it--in addition to the issues you're touching upon.
>
>
> Rigby
>
>
>
> > Thank you so much for sharing all of that, fallsfall. It was helpful for me.
> >
> > I really don't think it's the attraction that's gotten in the way. There are two things on her end that I think may be making her act inappropriately with me: (1) she over-identifies with me and (2) she feels the need to take care of me. And when I called her over the weekend after I had a horrible fight with my mother, she didn't call me back, which I thought was weird. She emailed me the next day saying she "couldn't" call me but that I could email her about it. This felt to me like a sort of arbitrary boundary she was setting up and didn't really make sense to me.
> >
> > On Tuesday, when I saw her, she blurted out a bunch of stuff about how my issues with my mother were so much like her issues with her mother. And then for some reason she told me that because of the way her mother treated her, she gets mad when people need her.
> >
> > Isn't that a weird thing for a therapist to tell a client?
> >
> > And that's only the beginning. So, I'm guessing that has something to do with why she's being so hard on me this week. I guess she's mad at me for needing her. But that seems like a real problem.
> >
> > Anyway, I'll let you know what happens as soon as I'm capable of talking about it. I'm anticipating possibly being a total mess.
> >
> > crushed
>
>
Posted by terrics on February 19, 2004, at 10:57:29
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 7:32:21
What a beautiful well thought out answer.
You were very brave to leave your therapist when you realized she wasn't helping. I wish I could be that brave. I am addicted to her and I think it is making me sicker. terrics
Posted by terrics on February 19, 2004, at 11:12:33
In reply to Re: Is The Bloom Off This Rose? » Rigby, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 10:23:29
"I cut myself for the first time ever." This makes me very sad. If you feel like doing it again maybe you can write something here instead. I did the same thing to spite a really wacky T.I had a while ago. It has now become a really bad habit whenever I am upset. I cannot stop it. Please think very carefully and please take care of yourself. You are number one to yourself. If that sounds selfish it is not. We are all number one. We take good care of others if we learn to take good care of ourselves. terrics
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 11:29:02
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
I have to admit that there's a part of me that's hoping something good/weird/exciting/unusual will come out of this. Like, she will break down crying or we'll have sex, or maybe we'll be able now to have a nontherapeutic relationship if I terminate. I dunno. The drama, you know, of this craziness. It feels like it could lead anywhere.I just had to get that off my chest, because chances are I'm going to be really disappointed and depressed if I expect something like that to happen today. Chances are it will be much less dramatic.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 11:38:18
In reply to IMPORTANT ADMISSION, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 11:29:02
You know, if you were willing to share that with your therapist and really examine that aspect, you could get a lot out of this session.
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 11:44:30
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 11:38:18
But Dinah, that would distract her and invalidate all the stuff I want to bring up about her "countertransferential acting out." You're really funny. All this time you tell me to get her to seek supervision, and now that I'm going to confront her on her crap, you're telling me to put the focus back on me. This doesn't seem like a sensible time to do that. I just wanted to share that with you guys as a reality check.> You know, if you were willing to share that with your therapist and really examine that aspect, you could get a lot out of this session.
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 11:47:19
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 11:38:18
You've really confused me. Now I wish I hadn't admitted that.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 12:01:55
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 11:44:30
Well, I still think she needs supervision. As you've presented her, she has extremely poor boundaries and that could hurt you, and other patients as well.
But I think what you said is very important, and an excellent opportunity to use the transference to explore deeper issues.
Sometimes I have to do that almost in spite of my therapist. But I do, and drag him along if necessary.
It sounds as if she presents many occasions to bring up a need for supervision. But I've never heard you say what you just said in the way you said it. Have you ever discussed that with your therapist?
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 12:06:17
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 12:01:55
I'm *terminating* therapy today, Dinah. It's not the time to start bringing up issues. It'll be enough just to deal with the termination. Transference is the least of my problems today.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 12:08:00
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 12:06:17
Sounds like you've made up your mind. Hope all goes well with the new therapist.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 12:17:44
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 12:08:00
((Dinah)) You're wonderful, you know it?
Posted by Rigby on February 19, 2004, at 13:39:22
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 12:17:44
I second that emotion, Karen. Dinah, you are endlessly kind, patient and diplomatic.
> ((Dinah)) You're wonderful, you know it?
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:51:33
In reply to Re: IMPORTANT ADMISSION, posted by Rigby on February 19, 2004, at 13:39:22
Chuckle. Not really, you know. And I can produce signed affidavits to back me up. :P
But thank you.
Posted by thewriteone on February 19, 2004, at 16:46:06
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 7:45:48
I feel for the situation that you're in. It's tough when you trust someone, but it seems to me that some serious boundaries are being crossed here. I can't imagine my T ever saying anything like that to me. As hard and painful as it may be, it sounds like you might do better with another T that can keep your best interests at heart. I guess it's possible that you two could work through this, but I wouldn't count on it. It sounds like the lines have pretty much been blurred.
Good luck, I hope you're able to work through this with or without her.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:21:51
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » fallsfall, posted by terrics on February 19, 2004, at 10:57:29
Terrics,
She was making me sicker on a weekly basis - it wasn't just that she wasn't helping me.
I couldn't imagine leaving her - I thought that my life would end. But when I seriously was thinking of ending my life (for the first really serious time ever), I started to look at alternatives. If I stayed, then my life would definately end - If I left, then it might end, or I might survive. Those seemed like better odds.
But, boy, the leap of faith to actually leave...
The hard part is imagining that some other person can actually help you. You might consider doing a couple of "consultations" to see how you could react to someone else.
Good luck.
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 18:35:37
In reply to Re: Seriously considering firing my T tomorrow » terrics, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:21:51
I'm back. It was really hard and strange. I could barely look at her and I hugged my legs to me the entire time and kind of rocked. I must have seemed pretty crazy. But I just needed to do that to feel safe. I tried to tell her everything that was going on, that I didn't trust her, that I felt used, that I felt beat up, that the whole tone of our relationship had changed and I couldn't figure out why. I asked her if she was in therapy and she got defensive. She said, "I guess you think I need to be, huh?" and I said, "yeah." I said I just wanted to know if she had a place to deal with whatever feelings I evoked in her. She said she didn't want to go into specifics but that she kinda did. (This makes me uncomfortable -- she's willing to divulge so much to me, but not this? I'm suspicious about this.) But she said I didn't have to worry about taking care of her.Well, there was a lot of other stuff also, but I don't want to go into it all. I told her I consulted with another therapist today (I did) who told me I should end treatment with her right away. She wanted to know exactly what we talked about and the therapist's name. She was furious, I think. I wouldn't tell her, though. I didn't want to spend my therapy time on that -- that was her stuff, wanting to know that. I dunno. Anyway, she settled down and said she thought that was a terrible idea, that we were just getting to the heart of my therapy and for me to leave now would be really bad. She practically begged me not to leave. Of course that felt good in a way, but I still am not sure I can trust her. I told her this. I also told her I felt like she was invalidating me recently. And that I did feel confident that she could handle this, me.
She took it all in. I guess I feel pretty good. I think maybe our relationship will grow even stronger. I know it's pretty hairy, but I like it that way. It's exciting, complicated, weird, unusual. Dangerous. Real. All things I like. I also told her about the cutting and she said she wanted me to tell her when I'm angry at her rather than taking it out on myself. I feel like I can't really convey how great she is as a therapist cuz you guys tend to hear all the bad stuff (and that's my fault, since i tend to post about that stuff, and you get a skewed perspective). But there's a huge part of me that trusts her, knows her heart's in the right place, and respects her honesty and openness. She admits she makes mistakes all the time. I respect that, too.
Anyway, I feel better than I expected to.
Sorry for biting your head off, Dinah. I was really cranky. I hope you'll forgive me.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 19:11:42
In reply to She talked me out of it, posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 18:35:37
You should be really proud of yourself for being so open and honest with her. That was REALLY hard. You were really brave. I think you did a great job!
Posted by crushedout on February 19, 2004, at 19:38:21
In reply to Re: She talked me out of it » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 19:11:42
thank you, fallsfall. it *was* really hard.
> You should be really proud of yourself for being so open and honest with her. That was REALLY hard. You were really brave. I think you did a great job!
>
>
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.