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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CraigD on December 17, 2003, at 15:30:39
Has anyone out there had success with EMDR? I think it stands for Eye Movement De-sensitation remedy.
I have been doing it for a couple of months to help deal with social anxiety, PTSD, etc.
It is very powerful at stripping me down to that wounded seven-year-old boy, but then I get left there. I find I am drinking more, feeling more despondent.
I had never heard of this treatment before. It involves moving your eyes back and forth while holding a thought or feeling in your head. It also works with sound (l to r)
Anyone?
Posted by antigua on December 17, 2003, at 16:22:05
In reply to EMDR experiences?, posted by CraigD on December 17, 2003, at 15:30:39
I've been doing EMDR for two months now and I feel a bit like you. It was recommended to me by my dr. and therapist for PTSD. I always thought I was in touch w/my emotions but once I tried this I realized how much I had shut myself away from the 6 yr.-old-girl who had been abused by her father. EMDR has put me directly in touch w/these feelings--I actually "feel" them and not just remember them. I have remembered a couple of specific instances of abuse but I'm not convinced these memories are absolutely reliable. What's really important to me is that I can remember what I actually felt like. I tend to disassociate and this is the first time I've been able to link the feelings to me.
That said, it's not really known how this therapy works. All I do know is that it is helping me right now. I can see that it may have its limitations on how far it can take me, but right now it's worth the time and expense.
Like you, I am left w/the wounded child feelings and I don't know what to do w/them. My therapist constantly reminds me that I'm an adult now and will be able to deal with the deepest and most hurtful feelings whenever (and if) they ever surface, but I'm not trusting enough to believe that yet. I still feel like that little girl who was betrayed by the man she trusted most in the world.
As to drinking, I quit about 5 months ago for these very reasons. Working on these issues in therapy was too much to handle and I found myself drinking more and more to hide from them. This led to trouble that I decided I was better off w/o.
I feel for you. It's no fun.
Good luck,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 21:28:53
In reply to EMDR experiences?, posted by CraigD on December 17, 2003, at 15:30:39
I've always wanted to try it, but I've never been able to figure out what I wanted, exactly. I understand you need target memories?
Perhaps your therapist hasn't done enough work creating a safe space for you, and teaching you how to find safety for yourself? I understand that's pretty important to do before going too deeply into things.
Posted by antigua on December 17, 2003, at 23:30:29
In reply to Re: EMDR experiences? » CraigD, posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 21:28:53
Dinah,
EMDR can work with fragments of memory too; they don't have to be complete memories. I started w/just fragments of things, thoughts & feelings and had no idea of how they fit together. Now I'm starting to group them into more complete pictures of experiences. It's as if I'm watching a movie in some ways, but I'm making it up as we go along. I say things that I see in my mind but I have no idea where they come from. My therapist says they are coming from memories that have been locked in place because I never worked through them as a child.
I almost feel kind of silly talking about this--I'm such a pragmatist and I have denied forever that anything had really happened to me because I had no proof and nobody to ask (my father is dead). As a matter of fact, my denial was my primary defense. But once things started surfacing in pieces (years before EMDR), I had to begin to accept that I wasn't making any of this up. I got stuck in therapy because I could NOT remember and I thought I had to remember in order to accept what had happened and to get well. If I didn't remember, it didn't happen, right? So I tried EMDR out of desperation. And, as I've already said, I don't know how it works, but I do know that no matter what, it is helping me to understand how I felt as a child and how I interpreted the events going on around me. The hard part is accepting how wrong my interpretations were, even w/the understanding that I was just a child.
antigua
Posted by zenhussy on December 19, 2003, at 2:48:00
In reply to EMDR experiences?, posted by CraigD on December 17, 2003, at 15:30:39
> Has anyone out there had success with EMDR? I think it stands for Eye Movement De-sensitation remedy.
I would say my experience with EMDR was successful. I am interested in perhaps doing some more to move blocked pieces of the traumas. I would certainly say that EMDR helped me to eventually verbalize so much of what I wasn't able to speak about for years. It was a mysterious 'key' that unlocked the sensations of the feelings that I later processed and talked about and gave name to. Before EMDR I was fairly robotic in my therapy. I worked on some stuff but when it came to trauma I 'split' more or less. EMDR helped me to stay within my body more when memories of trauma came up or when hypervigilant due to heightened PTSD.
> I have been doing it for a couple of months to help deal with social anxiety, PTSD, etc.I went for PTSD because of two powerful traumas early on in my life.
> It is very powerful at stripping me down to that wounded seven-year-old boy, but then I get left there. I find I am drinking more, feeling more despondent.Okay, here is where I'm concerned Craig. Where is the self care? Where are the tools and skills of taking care of the stuff that gets brought up in EMDR type work? Did your therapist go over this type of stuff before beginning EMDR with you? Have you done other types of therapy before doing this EMDR work?
I'm very sorry you're despondent and drinking to deal with the feelings that are coming up. I can't say I don't understand because if I wasn't able to self medicate during a period of EMDR work I was doing I'm sure I would have lost it. Back then I didn't have a good skill set of self care so I was still on the tail end of relying on not-so-healthy-but-keeps-me-going coping mechanisms.
> I had never heard of this treatment before. It involves moving your eyes back and forth while holding a thought or feeling in your head. It also works with sound (l to r)
> Anyone?The finger wagging or eye movement thing did not work for me. I responded better to the tapping on alternate sides of the body.
I would like to hear back from you if possible with some ideas of what you could do to better your support network and self safety while doing this work. I'm concerned.
Take care. EMDR is weird stuff. It takes a certain amount of courage to try something that is not fully accepted within the therapeutic community. It is also courageous to face things that are so scary that the mind has purposefully hidden them from oneself.
zenhussy--trauma survivor and currently trying to break the one step forward ten steps back model of therapeutic work. pacing. a lot of trauma work is about pacing.
Posted by CraigD on December 19, 2003, at 17:07:34
In reply to Re: EMDR experiences? » CraigD, posted by zenhussy on December 19, 2003, at 2:48:00
ZH-
Thanks for all the GREAT feedback. I had to start Celexa again just to make it through the holidays.
I didn't go to EMDR primarily for trauma -- it was more for terrible social anxiety and self-hatred. I uncovered memories last year of my uncle behaving inappropriate with me when I was in grades 4+5. I don't remember being raped per se, but my uncle was the only male figure in my life who showed any interest in me. My dad and step-dad didn't.
So there was mixed emotions of pleasure and shame in being with him, especially when the cops arrested him and questioned me in front of my mother.
But it is clear to my therapists I was exposed to something sexual earlier in life due to my hyper-sexual nature with relatives and friends starting at the age of 6 or 7, about the same time I began hating myself and believing I should be dead. Night terrors started in College, couldn't sleep in front of other people...lots of clear signs, but no memory.
my EMDR therapist is also treating as a trauma an unfortunate series of rejections/abadonments throughout my formative years.
We believe these things have left me afraid of people (mostly men...I am a gay 31 yo), unable to maintain close connections (walls go up after 6 months) and an extreme sensitivity to rejection.
EMDR is helping to relate these current feelings to their roots...I just need some remedial stuff soon.
Does this sound familiar to you?
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 20:23:21
In reply to Re: EMDR experiences?, posted by antigua on December 17, 2003, at 23:30:29
My therapist said a while back that he wouldn't mind my going to a therapist who specialized in something he didn't offer. He gave me the name of someone he words with for EMDR. I might be contacting her at the beginning of the year.
Posted by fallsfall on December 24, 2003, at 21:06:36
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 20:23:21
She seems to find it helpful. It is taxing for her, though.
Posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:26:12
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 20:23:21
> My therapist said a while back that he wouldn't mind my going to a therapist who specialized in something he didn't offer. He gave me the name of someone he words with for EMDR. I might be contacting her at the beginning of the year.
You sure have come a long way if you and your therp. are considering adjunct therapy with EMDR.
The experiences that people have told me have varied widely. It worked for me but didn't do much for others.
It didn't work for me the first time I tried it but I wasn't ready (emotionally or therapeutically) for the intensity of what the EMDR brought up at that time.
Ring in the new year by updating us to your EMDR possibilities.
zh
Posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:31:33
In reply to Re: EMDR experiences? » zenhussy, posted by CraigD on December 19, 2003, at 17:07:34
CraigD,
I'm too med. stupid to adequately answer this right now. In a couple days I hope this mental idiocy lifts.
I'm praying for you to make it through these holidays. Please back off the hard stuff and try to do as many nuturing things as you can.
If you're stuck as to what is nuturing just ask and you'll get more ideas than you could ever possibly use or know what to do with!
zh
p.s. clear signs no memory..........sigh. Yeah. That was the beginning for me as well. Current studies are questioning the overall cost to the individual who dissociates at the time of trauma. It is now being said that it comes at too high a price later down the road. Small comfort now but at least we're not crazy, right?
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 13:10:25
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » Dinah, posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:26:12
I'm going to wait until after the holidays to call her, and that's hard. I tend to be a person who makes a decision and jumps on it.
I hope you don't have to be a believer to have it work, because I'm pretty skeptical. But I was encouraged by the stories I read here to bring it up again. For some reason I had always thought that EMDR was for neutralizing traumatic memories, which I have no real problem doing. I wasn't really interested. But it sounds from what everyone is saying that it can also be used to attach feelings to the sterile memories of things that probably should be remembered as traumatic? That would be far more helpful. I tend to store my memories such that all feelings are stripped from them first. If I could integrate the feelings I think it would contribute to moving past a certain blockage I feel in therapy.
But like I said, I'm skeptical.
Posted by antigua on December 25, 2003, at 23:19:59
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 13:10:25
Dinah,
I think you've described well what I've experienced in EMDR: attaching feeling to sterile memories of traumatic events. I was (and still am) very skeptical about how it works, but it has seemed to unblock SOME feelings; others I still can't get close to (I've had 8 sessions so far). I see my EMDR therapist and the next day I see my regular therapist to try and process these feelings. My EMDR therapist closes every session by walking me through putting away the scary/harmful/devastating feelings until I am in my safe environment w/my therapist. This has worked well for me and has lessened the panic of the intensity of some of these emotions.While I haven't had any huge breakthroughs and don't think I've reached the heart of my trauma yet (isn't that what we all want?), I have felt some really sad/tough/unpleasant feelings that I have never faced before (like remembering overhearing my parents arguing about how they didn't want me) and that have influenced me profoundly my whole life. That said, please just be aware that it can be very painful and try to have a good support system while you're doing this. It's exhausting for me.
antigua
Posted by judy1 on December 27, 2003, at 11:40:47
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 13:10:25
Dinah,
My son is doing it for a specific phobia (bees) that was really limiting his activities. After about 4-5 sessions I noticed a huge improvement, and the psychologist has recommended about 3 more sessions. I'm considering it for myself (for repressed memories) because I dissociate so much. I imagine my case will be a lot more involved. Best of luck with your decision- judy
Posted by Dinah on December 27, 2003, at 21:14:59
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » Dinah, posted by judy1 on December 27, 2003, at 11:40:47
I think I'm definitely going to do it. The only question is in the specifics. My therapist wants me to use a colleague of his, but since I can't seem to locate her, he's going to have to find out what's up. And he is so unbelievably disorganized that it might take a while. Sigh.
Posted by Dinah on December 27, 2003, at 21:17:49
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » Dinah, posted by antigua on December 25, 2003, at 23:19:59
That sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for, although I understand it would be painful if it works. Thanks for sharing your experience of it.
I wonder why the literature only seems to refer to making traumatic memories less painful?
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 11:02:32
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » Dinah, posted by judy1 on December 27, 2003, at 11:40:47
By the way, Judy, one of my biggest concerns is that the person my therapist recommended might not have sufficient training and experience in EMDR to deal with a highly dissociative client. But I don't really want to upset him by going to someone else. I understand that you should have a person trained in at least Level II and with some experience, as highly dissociative individuals are the ones most likely to have negative outcomes with EMDR. I wonder if the risks are overstated? I can't really imagine what might go wrong.
But it does make me halfway hope that the person my therapist wants me to see is not, in fact, available or willing so that I can interview others who are on the EMDR association referral list.
I suppose my therapist feels that he'll be able to work with this woman, and not worry that I'll try to dilute my dependence by developing a therapeutic relationship with her (since he's always known I'd love to have a backup therapist).
Posted by zenhussy on December 28, 2003, at 11:54:17
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » judy1, posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 11:02:32
>>By the way, Judy, one of my biggest concerns is that the person my therapist recommended might not have sufficient training and experience in EMDR to deal with a highly dissociative client. But I don't really want to upset him by going to someone else.
Dinah,
Respectfully, your therapy isn't about your T. Upsetting him need not be your first concern.
>>I understand that you should have a person trained in at least Level II and with some experience, as highly dissociative individuals are the ones most likely to have negative outcomes with EMDR. I wonder if the risks are overstated? I can't really imagine what might go wrong.
Yes I would have to agree with finding a level II professional (phd, mft, mfcc, lcsw, etc.) to work with as I have worked with different therapists trained at different levels.
As for what can go wrong? If you would like me to e-mail you I can give you an in depth personal experience as to just what can go wrong with a therapist inadequately trained in using EMDR with a dissociative client. Let me know if you would like to hear it.
>>But it does make me halfway hope that the person my therapist wants me to see is not, in fact, available or willing so that I can interview others who are on the EMDR association referral list.From what I'm reading this sounds like the smartest idea for you. When doing EMDR for the second time (with a level II professional) I researched the training and contacted the institute for level II people in my area. I interviewed the hell outta them before I chose the person I did. At that time the therapist doing the EMDR was my all around therapist. Looking back I would do EMDR with a separate therapist and process with both that person and my individual therapist.
>>I suppose my therapist feels that he'll be able to work with this woman, and not worry that I'll try to dilute my dependence by developing a therapeutic relationship with her (since he's always known I'd love to have a backup therapist).
It is very important for professionals to have a good working relationship together otherwise everyone involved suffers in one way or another.
I'm a little confused as to why your T would be worried about diluting your dependency. Is that a bad thing? Sounds a bit fishy to me after so many years. But then again I'm not the one with the degrees charging the big bucks so I'm sure your T is working from some psych. angle I'm not aware of.
zh
Posted by zenhussy on December 28, 2003, at 11:56:13
In reply to Re: EMDR experiences? » zenhussy, posted by CraigD on December 19, 2003, at 17:07:34
CraigD,
How are you doing? Been thinking about you over these holidays and wondering if your meds are helping you with this crud coming up from the EMDR.
Take care and please update if you are able and so desire.
zenhussy
Posted by antigua on December 28, 2003, at 14:57:44
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » antigua, posted by Dinah on December 27, 2003, at 21:17:49
From what I've learned, the goal IS to make the memories less painful by processing them. My EMDR therapist explained to me that EMDR helps to untrap feelings that are caught up in our short-term memory. They have never moved to long-term because they haven't been resolved. By working through them hopefully I will lessen their impact. That said, the hard part for me is that I now realize how little I really do remember. There are definitely blocks of years from childhood that I don't remember, but now that I am into it, I realize how large these holes are!! Also, my T says it doesn't matter if the memories are organized or logical, what is important is our feelings about them because that is what we felt as a child.
Also, I don't know who brought it up, but having a well-trained EMDR T is very important. My family dr. recommended I try EMDR because I felt stuck in trying to remember and I was able to convince my regular T that I was ready to try it, and could handle the consequences. My family dr. recommended a T, but I went w/the one my regular T recommended. Turns out she was the first therapist I saw 12 yrs ago through an EAP program and I was only allowed 6 visits w/her. So I'm back w/her now for EMDR, which is quite amusing. She was trained by the founder of EMDR and is heavily involved in training others so I'm comfortable w/her abilities.
My only real problem is that I don't trust easily and I have had a hard time opening up to her, even though I know her. I know I need to just let go and experience the feelings, but I can't even do that w/my regular T.
Good luck.
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 15:05:57
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it » Dinah, posted by zenhussy on December 28, 2003, at 11:54:17
Thanks, Zenhussy, for the perspective. I wouldn't want to stir up any unpleasant memories for you, and I do take your point. I suppose I get too comfortable with the dissociation, and feel too sure of myself that I have it under control. I take it from what you are saying that that is not a wise assumption. If you feel comfortable sharing I would certainly appreciate it, but if you feel that it would be in any way upsetting to you, then rest assured that I understand what you are saying.
I suppose that when I speak to her, I should definitely check out her qualifications and experience with dissociative clients. I'm sure she'll have the professional ethics to be honest if she's not sure she can handle it. That's assuming she's even in practice. I find it odd that I can't find her...
I'm not sure if my therapist is working from some knowledge of psychology as much as he's working from knowledge of me. He's aware that I still get absolutely furious about my dependence on him sometimes (now being one of those times, and my timing for deciding to go forward with EMDR may not in fact be unrelated if I'm being honest). And he thinks a secure dependency on him is important for me until I move naturally beyond it.
I am definitely going to push him though, if I must rely on him to locate this therapist. He has a tendency to let things slide forever.
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 15:07:15
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 15:05:57
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 15:10:21
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it Dinah, posted by antigua on December 28, 2003, at 14:57:44
I know what you mean about trusting. There are some things that I would like not to say so much that I don't really trust myself to be totally honest about them. I've asked my current therapist if he can fill her in on what he thinks it's absolutely essential she knows and I'll talk to her about it afterwards. And I'm *still* not sure I won't lie through my teeth. Trust is not easy for me.
Posted by zenhussy on December 29, 2003, at 3:29:00
In reply to Re: EMDR - I may be trying it, posted by Dinah on December 28, 2003, at 15:05:57
Posted by Jeffrey on December 30, 2003, at 0:04:03
In reply to Re: EMDR - sent you an e-mail (nm) » Dinah, posted by zenhussy on December 29, 2003, at 3:29:00
Hi all,
EMDR sounds interesting. Is there any benfit from obsessional thinking? I ruminate about an x-ray my wife had while she was pregnant and that it will give our child cancer. Would EMDR be helpful in relieving these obsessions which are very unpleasant and make enjoying our family difficult?
Best Wishes,
Jeffrey
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:23:07
In reply to Re: EMDR - sent you an e-mail (nm) » Dinah, posted by zenhussy on December 29, 2003, at 3:29:00
Thank you so much. I've done a bit of thinking, now I've recovered from Monday, and I'd really like to give the EMDR a shot. And I am going to insist, even at the risk of alienating my therapist a bit (not a lot, I'd drop the whole idea first), that the EMDR therapist have at least a level II certification.
I think the positive statement about myself that I'd like to aim for is "I am strong enough to handle feeling my emotions."
The trouble is that I'm not sure that's a legitimate goal to work on. Experience tends to tell me that realistically, I'm not....
I'm a bit concerned again though. I borrowed the Shapiro book and she seems to only talk about eliminating strong reactions to memories. My reactions to my memories could generally now be rated at a zero on the scale she uses. If that's the purpose of the treatment, it won't do a lot of good.
So I think I'll use this thread to cobble together an explanation of what I'm looking for and bring it to the first session with the EMDR therapist to see if it's even reasonable to expect the opposite of what Shapiro described.
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