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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
OK. This is not a revelation to me. But it struck me particularly hard today. My therapist is who he is to me because of what I make him, not what he is. He's not brilliant and irreplaceable, except to the extent that I see him that way.
Now I think his forte is making me feel safe, not brilliant interpretations. And I didn't need to feel safe today. But I wonder... Does he really do anything special to make me feel safe, or do I imbue him with the quality of making me feel safe because I need to feel safe. Am I just using this poor hapless guy as a receptacle for all the magical qualities I need to feel safe?
He just seemed so bewildered today. Like he really didn't understand me and didn't know quite what to do with me. Like he couldn't possibly even slightly relate to what I was talking about. Like I was totally beyond his normal experience, and he didn't have the tools to use.
He did the thing we were talking about earlier. Where he pointed out that my actions were based on incorrect thinking. Then sort of figured that that wrapped it up. I told him thank you. That should clear up a decades old problem.
And I wonder. Is he always like this but I just refuse to see it?
I'm not angry with him. I'm not upset about today's session. I just have this vague curiosity. And it sort of felt like I'd never really seen him before.
Who is this therapist that I've been seeing for eight years. Not as a person, but as a therapist. Have I been seeing him as he really is or is he a figment of my imagination, or my needs.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 19, 2003, at 22:31:44
In reply to My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
I can completely relate. I always wonder if I give my therapist much more power and mystique than he actually has. In fact I'm sure I do.
I've had bewildering sessions with my therapist, bad sessions, and wonderful sessions. Dinah, you once told me that these sorts of sessions happen every once in awhile and it's not indicative of how future sessions will be. Every once in awhile, people are just "off." Or we are "off."
Posted by naiad on December 19, 2003, at 23:25:12
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 19, 2003, at 22:31:44
I had a session tonight and left feeling worse than usual (which is pretty bad). My therapist told me that I am manipulating him (a long story that involves transferance) and that I should develop more curiosity about myself. I told him I have plenty of curiosity but am reticent to express it. He finds that I edit myself too much and that I don't give him enough information. The entire session really stunk! He piled on all of his complaints leaving me feeling really awful. I wonder if I am supposed to feel challenged? I have idealized him to be the perfect and sensitive therpaist but now I don't think that at all. I think he is a big creep!! Sorry for the immature temper tantrum but it is how I feel. Sad and rejected.
Posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 0:19:42
In reply to My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
Interesting. I wonder if it was just an off session, or if your perception is shifting. I imagine it would be scary to lose the image of him as safe, but it could also be a good thing. Because after all, if safety isn't a quality in him, then it can exist elsewhere, or you can create it elsewhere, or carry it within you, right? Maybe?
There's supposed to be a period in childhood development where you become disillusioned with your parents, and cease to see them as godlike creatures. I'm not sure I went through that. I can't recall it anyway. I can't recall ever seeing them as godlike, or ever having that change to seeing them as human. I wonder if that has something to do with it.
I've been noticing lately that I might just give my therapist too much credit. In the group sessions, sometimes I'm pretty much annoyed with people's questions, except hers. It seems like what she says is relevant, and goes in the 'right' direction, whereas other people just distract from it. Maybe her direction isn't that much more 'right' than anyone else's?? I know she's the trained professional, but perhaps I just assume she's more perfect than she is.
We have to idealize them a bit, don't we? Otherwise how could we let them lead us to unpleasant feelings and discard our cherished defenses? Surely no mere mortal could be trusted with that kind of power.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 20, 2003, at 14:03:49
In reply to My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
You say that his forte is making you feel safe, but you didn't need that today. What did you need? What is it you were expecting but not receiving?
It seems that he was challenging your thoughts. That they were imbalanced or possibly self distructive and he challenged them. I don't think that he meant to imply that the issue/s would be cleared up. Just that he was giving you some food for thought. And you've said in the past that you seem to like him better as a supportive role rather than a challenger. Is this why you now see him as "less than perfect?"
It is true that our therapists are only what we see them as. And we don't always see the whole picture, due to factors such as transference. I'm sure he's not always like this. Maybe he was having an off day. Or maybe you were.
Posted by Speaker on December 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
In reply to My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
Dinah,
I hate those off sessions. I often go back the next time and tell how it made me feel and ask if my T thought he used wisdom when dealing with me in that manner...often times he says No! After my brief moment of shock we talk about what would have been helpful to me and how it could have been handled better. He has also just apologized for being off...I always thank him for his honesty :). This is my old T I have only seen my new T five times...it is awful to start over.
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 19:32:55
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Speaker on December 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
You're right. It would be horrible to start over. They're none of them perfect, and I'm used to my therapist's imperfections. And most mental health practitioners I've seen have made mine look like a pure genious in comparison.
Is that going any better? Or are you in the holiday period right now?
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 19:36:31
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect... » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on December 20, 2003, at 14:03:49
He wasn't being challenging, exactly. He hasn't really been challenging since I told him I was feeling less safe. I need to talk to him about increasing the pressure just a bit, until we find the right balance.
I just think that deep insight isn't his strength. I'm not sure if he has insight, but doesn't share it. Or if he just doesn't have any.
It's ok, really. I'm certainly not going to go out to find a new therapist or anything.
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 19:44:25
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 19, 2003, at 22:31:44
I don't think that it was a bad session, exactly. Or that he was off. Anyone who's heard me speak candidly about my therapist for any length of time wonders sometimes if I couldn't maybe go deeper... Well, I don't really want to think about it.
The main reason I go to him is to help me through the ups and downs of my mood disorder - to help me cope, and to help me center. He does a *marvelous* job at that. My suicidal thinking is way down, my self injury is way down. I manage to keep stable and functioning a lot better than I do without him. The CBT and relaxation techniques pretty much got my OCD under control.
But sometimes when my mood is stable, I want to work on interpersonal stuff, or character stuff, and my therapist just doesn't have an analytic approach. The CBT approach he tends to use doesn't really work well (with me) on those issues.
But I like what I do have, and I'm not going to give it up. :)
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 19:52:10
In reply to until tonight he was perfect, posted by naiad on December 19, 2003, at 23:25:12
Ouch. Are you going to see him again before Christmas? If so, give him heck. He's not supposed to do things like that at such a stressful time of year.
It sounds like he let his frustration get the better of him. If he's otherwise a good therapist, why don't you try assuming he was on a narcotic pain reliever or something, and wasn't in control of his behavior. At least talk to him. Even if he felt frustrated, it isn't terribly therapeutic to present it to you in quite the manner he did.
I *hate* the manipulative charges. I once told my therapist that just because he *felt* manipulated doesn't mean that I was intending to be manipulative, or even that I *was* being manipulative. That he was confusing his feelings with my intent. And then I told him my reasons for doing what I was doing, which were completely different than his assumptions. We weren't even on the same chapter, never mind the same page.
When do you see him next?
Posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 20:09:31
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect... » Dinah, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 0:19:42
Tabitha, your musings are running along the same lines as mine. And I'm not altogether sure how I'd feel about reaching the separation and individuation stage. (sad smile)
I've never thought of him as perfect. But I have thought of him as magic. Even when I realize he's only magic because I give him the power to work magic on me, I still think he's magic.
I think that maybe I regress a whole lot when I'm not feeling well. And maybe (even probably) when I'm not feeling well again, I'll go back to seeing him the way I need to see him. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I never did go back to seeing my mother as my mother. :( I don't think I'd like that.
I'm guessing that in group, your therapist *does* have the most on point remarks. She is the professional. In fact, she probably looks more perfect just because she's alongside everyone else. Does she seem way more imperfect and off target in individual sessions?
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 1:30:18
In reply to My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 21:15:14
I express myself very poorly sometimes. I'm certain that's the reason he has trouble understanding.
Posted by tabitha on December 21, 2003, at 5:20:10
In reply to Re: But I'm sure it's not his fault, posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 1:30:18
> I express myself very poorly sometimes. I'm certain that's the reason he has trouble understanding.
Is that preferable to thinking he might just be occasionally dense, or distracted, or dosed up on Dayquil or something? What a dilemma.. to think him perfect, therefore it must be your fault when he fails you.. or else he's imperfect and therefore can't be the perfect savior.
Posted by naiad on December 21, 2003, at 6:24:21
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect... » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 20, 2003, at 20:09:31
Dinah,
I'm suppossed to see him Tuesday evening. I called him Saturday morning to cancel but he hasn't called me back yet. Now I am reconsidering what to do thanks to the input I've had here. I'm still not sure I can work with him and his expectations. I need to spend our next sesssion exploring that dilemma. I wish it weren't so close to Christmas because I do not need another tearful day like I had the day after our last session.
I don't think he set out to upset me and I do think he is genuinely frustrated but I also know I'm going to have to be more assertive in therapy. In my ruminations about him, I have realized that he NEVER compliments me. I think I would like that...someone to tell me something good about myself. This might have something to do with my transferance issues (my mother was very stingy with compliments). Anyway, I'm going to work on a list of my own complaints and see if we can resolve them.
Thanks for listening and the helpful feedback.
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 9:11:03
In reply to Dinah...my next appt., posted by naiad on December 21, 2003, at 6:24:21
Perhaps he's giving some cooling off time by not calling you. This is just me, but I wouldn't terminate right before the holidays. It's a stressful enough time as it is. :( That's why I was surprised he decided to be so aggressive in challenging you at this particular time, and assume it must have been one of those bad moves they occasionally make and we all regret.
I have to warn you though. You're probably not going to get some of what you want. That's in no way suggesting you shouldn't bring it up with him, as it can lead to a fruitful discussion of what's important to you and why. But my own non-analytic therapist doesn't really give compliments. I'm relatively certain an analytic one would explore your wishes rather than gratify them. Is that your experience with him?
Not being terribly analytic, my therapist gratifies some of my wishes, but not the ones for compliments or to be admired.
You said your therapist was perfect until the other night. I'd really explore what's going on before terminating. Well, no. I'd terminate it then regret it horribly and beg to come back. That's what I did maybe five? times over the course of therapy. I don't really recommend it. :(
Can you try to get some of the worst of your fears and hurts soothed before the holidays and wait till after the holidays to explore for possible miscommunications and incorrect assumptions on both sides?
I understand you're angry. I definitely understand, unfortunately. But I've found that working through the anger and hurt was a revelation to me, given my history and childhood. He can be angry with me, and still our relationship can survive. Perhaps even more shockingly, I can be angry with him, and still our relationship can survive.
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 9:16:21
In reply to Re: But I'm sure it's not his fault » Dinah, posted by tabitha on December 21, 2003, at 5:20:10
I have no doubt there's more than a grain of truth in what you're saying. :)
But the immediate cause of my attempt to retract was good old OCD. I had an attack last night realizing I had been waaaay too critical of him on an internet bulletin board. That made me a bad girl, and if I was bad horrible things would happen (i.e. losing him as a therapist). So I needed to undo my "bad" deed. It's mostly my pathology acting up again. Sigh.
So I take back all the critical things I've ever said about him. He may not be perfect but he's more than good enough. ;)
(Were you here in the days that I used to try to undo my words/posts all the time? I'm really much better than I was.)
Posted by naiad on December 21, 2003, at 9:39:47
In reply to Re: Your next appt. » naiad, posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 9:11:03
Dinah,
"But my own non-analytic therapist doesn't really give compliments. I'm relatively certain an analytic one would explore your wishes rather than gratify them. Is that your experience with him?"
Absolutely! You are exactly right and I am so glad you pointed that out because I would go in wanting something that is not going to happen. Then I would feel cheated or that he has nothing good to say and is purposely ignoring my request. This is important for me to understand --THANKS.
By the way, I think you are amazing, possibly perfect :)-- just kidding, that is a horrible expectation to put on anyone. But your insight is truly helpful and very relevant for me.
Take care.
Posted by tabitha on December 21, 2003, at 16:43:43
In reply to Re: But I'm sure it's not his fault » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 21, 2003, at 9:16:21
That sort of OCD sounds like a terrible taskmaster. I hope you kick its b*tt with some thought-stopping techniquesYes, I've seen you try to un-say things before. I just thought it looked like fear of hurting others' feelings. I didn't realize you had a sort of punishing gargoyle on your shoulder. (((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on December 22, 2003, at 9:12:13
In reply to Re: But I'm sure it's not his fault » Dinah, posted by tabitha on December 21, 2003, at 16:43:43
It's not fun, but it's also usually pretty much under control. Thank heavens.
Probably sometimes I am trying not to hurt someone's feelings, but when my retractions are illogical enough to be noticeable that's probably the OCD.
Posted by Dinah on December 22, 2003, at 9:17:29
In reply to Re: Your next appt....Dinah, posted by naiad on December 21, 2003, at 9:39:47
:-) Certainly not perfect, but thank you.
You sound pretty nice yourself.
Posted by LostGirl on December 22, 2003, at 10:26:34
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect... » Dinah, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 0:19:42
I think even with a great therapist, there are going to be off days and misunderstandings and miscommunications - just because they are human.
I really freaked out for days over it whenever this happened with my former therapist - because it was SO good most of the time.
The part that bugged me the most which was mentioned above is how even though we clearly had this great rapport and it was so intense and so good, he was not one to give compliments or to in any way allude to his good feelings for him. In fact, at times, he did and then quickly took it back, or twisted it into something else, out of his own discomfort with putting it out there, but then I really, really felt rejected.
I do think they think they are not supposed to gratify us.
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2003, at 22:17:03
In reply to Re: My therapist is less than perfect..., posted by LostGirl on December 22, 2003, at 10:26:34
my therapist is big on gratifying/giving me compliments. basically telling me how much she likes me. is that really so bad?
i feel a little awkward when she does it, but i basically appreciate it. i don't think she goes overboard. and i think it's genuine. so, is she doing something wrong? my sense is not.
> I think even with a great therapist, there are going to be off days and misunderstandings and miscommunications - just because they are human.
> I really freaked out for days over it whenever this happened with my former therapist - because it was SO good most of the time.
> The part that bugged me the most which was mentioned above is how even though we clearly had this great rapport and it was so intense and so good, he was not one to give compliments or to in any way allude to his good feelings for him. In fact, at times, he did and then quickly took it back, or twisted it into something else, out of his own discomfort with putting it out there, but then I really, really felt rejected.
> I do think they think they are not supposed to gratify us.
Posted by LostGirl on December 24, 2003, at 18:57:24
In reply to therapist gratification, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2003, at 22:17:03
I was desperate for mine to do that. I wouldn't have left if he wasn't so withholding (which led to the ultimate withholding - "forgetting" to tell me about his vacation).
I think they need to be sure it's not someone who will take the praise/kind words out of context and read anything into it or think it's pointing in some boundary-crossing direction. I would not have taken it that way as I am very grounded in reality, and felt rejected by his ridiculous ban on expression of good feelings when they were so obviously there.
This is the end of the thread.
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