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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 23:18:21
Well I'm embarassed to keep posting about my group therapy upsets, but ...
Last week I shared that I've felt annoyed by some of the interactions in the group. It seems to me like some of the questions interrupt and distract from what someone is saying. Particularly one woman, though I didn't name names. My therapist had encouraged me to be assertive and bring this up for discussion. Well I got some positive response from some members and some negative, but the whole thing was very stressful to me and I was pretty upset and unbalanced all week.
This week I was just about getting re-balanced again and group came around. The one woman told me how defensive she had been about what I said, then she went on with quite a bit of feedback that I felt as criticism. She said I'm hard to read and not emotionally expressive. Someone else told me he prefers people who are expressive, although he did not criticise me. The therapist asked me if being more emotionally expressive was one of my goals for being in group. I said well I guess it should be, then things moved on.
Today I felt horribly depressed and barely managed to get out of bed. I finally realize I'm having a reaction to what the woman said. I realized I've sensed she doesn't like me for a while. I've had some positive interactions with everyone in the group except her. I've tried to say supportive things to her before. At some point I started noticing I don't like the way she interacts with people-- it seems like she's too hard on them, picks their words apart and tries to force them to see things that they don't see. My therapist doesn't agree with me about this and doesn't see any problem with the woman.
I'm just crushed by this thing about being told I'm insufficiently emotionally expressive. It actually isn't one of my goals for the group at all-- but now it's been strongly suggested I need to change that. It doesn't feel like it's something in my control. I'm willing to change the things I say and to challenge my thinking, but I have no idea how to be more emotionally expressive. I'm an introverted, reserved person. I have enough social anxiety that I'm not often aware of feelings until I get away from people and can process by myself. I still have some flatness of affect from depression. I feel as if I've been told I need to be prettier or something. My inner child feels terribly wounded and rejected. I'll probably have a crying jag now and feel like crap tomorrow. Then I go for my individual session and she'll most likely disagree with my perceptions of the group. Then I'll have 4 days to shake it off and it starts over again with another group session.
I don't know if it's good for me to keep up with this. There have been positive moments in the group, and perhaps there are lessons I'll take away from it, but it's just such a huge stressor. I had a vision that it's like a religious cult where we're all being peer pressured to feel differently and believe differently. I know I'm distorting to the negative now since I'm fairly depressed. But normally when I'm distorting I stay out of things that add more upset. The group is a weekly commitment, I can't just skip it.
You'll probably tell me it sounds like I should drop out, but then I'll feel like it's hopeless for me to learn how to relate to people successfully. My face to face relationships outside of therapy are down to practically nothing. I have some friends but none are really very intimate. I'm feeling hopeless.
Maybe therapy isn't even right for me. I've been doing it for 10 years. I wonder if I quit would I shake off some of it, see it as harmful, as just not a good fit for me, as being forced into a mold that isn't right. That's what it's feeling like. I'm so tired of trying to make myself do the correct therapy-type thing like being assertive, getting connected to my feelings, etc, all that stuff, and feeling like I'm not good at it and it doesn't make me any happier anyway. If my life isn't better after 10 years why am I trying? My therapist says my life is better but it doesn't feel better. It feels more small and isolated and constrictive and I still feel totally dependent on the therapist. I'm sick of trying to be different and better. I want to just be my own odd isolated emotionally unexpressive self and be OK.
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 23:21:54
In reply to Ready to Throw in the Towel, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 23:18:21
Posted by Dinah on December 18, 2003, at 6:43:44
In reply to Ready to Throw in the Towel, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 23:18:21
Tabitha, I'm not going to say you should throw in the towel. It might be worth sticking it out for a while yet.
You don't like one woman out of how many? And she doesn't like you? I think that's ok. I think that's a great percent, however many are in the group. Not everyone is going to like you (gasp!). Their loss. :)
I would let your therapist know how you felt about the emotionally expressive part. While it may be true that you are out of touch with your feelings, and need to work on that, it may also be not true. It certainly doesn't seem true here.
And there is this huge pressure in our society to be cookie cutter one way correct. We should be outgoing. We should be expressive. We should wear this and believe that. There is a huge bias against introverts. If you are a happily reserved and introverted person, who manages to get your social needs met in the real world, it's rude of other people, therapist included, to suggest that you need to change to fit a mold that suits them better. If you aren't happily reserved and introverted, if your social needs aren't being met sufficiently, you might want to consider changing your style just enough that you are able to get what you need, without for one minute sacrificing who you are or what you like about yourself.
I still wonder if there isn't some conflict of interest in running a group with individual patients involved. I don't think I'd ever go to a group run by my therapist. I'm also pretty certain he'd never invite me. :D
I suspect I'd be spittin' mad at my therapist over the goal of group comment, and would (as he puts it) bite back. But maybe my style isn't the best one for getting my goals met.
Can you make a list of what *you* want your goals to be before therapy? Maybe you could go over them with your therapist, refine them, and keep them on hand for the next such occurance. Maybe one of them could be "learning to get along with difficult people" or "learning to interact with emotionally expressive people in a way that feels right to me".
It might at least be worth a shot....
Or maybe not, if it truly hasn't proved to be a valuable experience to you. Only you can judge that...
Posted by fallsfall on December 18, 2003, at 7:39:48
In reply to Ready to Throw in the Towel, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 23:18:21
Tabitha,
(I'm a bit stressed, so please try to read this as a tactful and supportive response, even if it doesn't quite come across that way...)
Group can be hard. I know what you mean about spending all your time changing when you just want to be you. I think that they are not looking for you to be different inside - they are just looking for you to be more transparent, so that they can see who the you IS inside. It is a difference in *behavior* rather than a difference in your essence?
Have you told the one who doesn't like you how you see HER behavior? Does anyone in the group agree with you? (I know, doesn't sound like a fun topic at all - but it might be helpful)
Have you been with the same therapist for the whole 10 years? If you have, it might be appropriate to ask for a consultation. Spending a session or two with a different therapist to assess where you are and where you are going and how you are getting there. Sometimes a new opinion can be helpful to both you and your therapist.
I'm hoping you can stick it out. I think that you have learned some valuable things so far.
That said, I must tell you that I was in a group 8 years ago - but I only stayed 6 months. The group was very confrontational and the therapist didn't say more than 10 words a session. I was not strong enough to survive in that environment. I went to a DBT group for 6 months, and that was helpful. Then I joined another group for 1 1/2 years (?) - this second group was overly passive. So it was easy to go there, but we didn't necessarily accomplish a lot. I left the second group because it was on the same night as Ice Skating, and I wanted to skate more... I guess I'm trying to say that there are reasons that maybe only you would understand for leaving a group. You just don't want to leave because you are wanting to avoid facing the issues you want/need to work on.
Good luck
Posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 18:56:38
In reply to Ready to Throw in the Towel, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 23:18:21
>Well I'm embarassed to keep posting about my group therapy upsets, but ...
Tabitha--you haven't one thing to be embarassed about. I'm quite proud you're sharing here what is going on. Upsets need airing. Personally I think it is healthy to get these things out, thought through and then acted on or dealt with.
>Last week I shared that I've felt annoyed by some of the interactions in the group. It seems to me like some of the questions interrupt and distract from what someone is saying. Particularly one woman, though I didn't name names. My therapist had encouraged me to be assertive and bring this up for discussion. Well I got some positive response from some members and some negative, but the whole thing was very stressful to me and I was pretty upset and unbalanced all week.
Very proud of you for asserting yourself. Well done! Seriously. That is a major step when one isn't used to doing it. I can relate to being unbalanced after such an assertion. Again, good job.
>This week I was just about getting re-balanced again and group came around. The one woman told me how defensive she had been about what I said, then she went on with quite a bit of feedback that I felt as criticism. She said I'm hard to read and not emotionally expressive. Someone else told me he prefers people who are expressive, although he did not criticise me. The therapist asked me if being more emotionally expressive was one of my goals for being in group. I said well I guess it should be, then things moved on.You can ALWAYS go back and say 'NO, emotional expressiveness is NOT one of my goals this time around thank you very much!' I don't mean to be flip either. You do have the option and choice to say that you agreed to make the matter go away but didn't really mean it. It happens. In group it happens a lot!! You're not the first or only one to do this ya know.
As for the critical harpy in your group...I can't say much as most of what I would type would have me banned for life since I'm up to a year possibly next time. She can stick it in her eye! Sounds like a case of projection to me. Sounds like she can't emote in a way people can read her correctly so it is easier for her to tell you that you are hard to read and not expresive enough emotionally. I mean c'mon lady! From your description it doesn't sound as if it was offered up in a truly helpful manner but more as a criticism which probably comes naturally to the harpy shrew.
I hate to say just brush it off but a person like that isn't worth very much of your energy in that therapeutic environment. What is she offering? Doesn't sound like she is part of the give and take that is involved in healthy group relationships. Be polite. Stand firm. Think in your head every time she interrupts and is unaware of her behaviours and habits (cuz she sounds like a non-learner) 'what a harpy shrew...thank goodness I'm not like that!' and you'll feel better. I feel better just knowing most people aren't like her!!
>Today I felt horribly depressed and barely managed to get out of bed. I finally realize I'm having a reaction to what the woman said. I realized I've sensed she doesn't like me for a while. I've had some positive interactions with everyone in the group except her. I've tried to say supportive things to her before. At some point I started noticing I don't like the way she interacts with people-- it seems like she's too hard on them, picks their words apart and tries to force them to see things that they don't see. My therapist doesn't agree with me about this and doesn't see any problem with the woman.I'm going through this paragraph by paragraph and responding. I think I've put my thoughts about this woman quite clearly above. ; ) I would have to say I disagree with your therp. and I'm hundreds of miles away and have never met any of you!
>I'm just crushed by this thing about being told I'm insufficiently emotionally expressive. It actually isn't one of my goals for the group at all-- but now it's been strongly suggested I need to change that. It doesn't feel like it's something in my control. I'm willing to change the things I say and to challenge my thinking, but I have no idea how to be more emotionally expressive. I'm an introverted, reserved person. I have enough social anxiety that I'm not often aware of feelings until I get away from people and can process by myself. I still have some flatness of affect from depression. I feel as if I've been told I need to be prettier or something. My inner child feels terribly wounded and rejected. I'll probably have a crying jag now and feel like crap tomorrow. Then I go for my individual session and she'll most likely disagree with my perceptions of the group. Then I'll have 4 days to shake it off and it starts over again with another group session.
Sing it sistah! No, really. I hear you with the routine of shaking it off and doing it over again. Is your therp. helping you build skills or keep your skills updated for self care? If the inner child is feeling like crap sounds to me like time to tune up the self care skills. Just my personal observation from my own time in therapy and group over the years.
As for the flatness from depression? For pete's sake what do these people want? Joan Crawford drama? Worry not about this for now. You said it feels like this has been added on now. You can say no thanks until you're ready to handle it later. Pacing and containment. Two important concepts from the sidran foundation for trauma therapy. I think those concepts can apply to many other types of therapy as well. You've set goals for group already. You needn't adjust them midway through. Stick to the original ones and if you re-up for next round then perhaps examine whether or not emotional expressivness is important for YOU.
>I don't know if it's good for me to keep up with this. There have been positive moments in the group, and perhaps there are lessons I'll take away from it, but it's just such a huge stressor. I had a vision that it's like a religious cult where we're all being peer pressured to feel differently and believe differently. I know I'm distorting to the negative now since I'm fairly depressed. But normally when I'm distorting I stay out of things that add more upset. The group is a weekly commitment, I can't just skip it.
In my experience sometimes just attending the weekly commitment is the largest part of the work. You might be at that stage if depression is distorting again. I think just going is MORE than enough. Don't you??? Remember...no evaluating life goals until January and even then wait for that damn Mercury retrograde to finish!>You'll probably tell me it sounds like I should drop out, but then I'll feel like it's hopeless for me to learn how to relate to people successfully. My face to face relationships outside of therapy are down to practically nothing. I have some friends but none are really very intimate. I'm feeling hopeless.
Feeling hopeless sucks. This group isn't the only route to interpersonal relationships. But when you feel hopeless exploring other options seems like too much to take on.
>Maybe therapy isn't even right for me. I've been doing it for 10 years. I wonder if I quit would I shake off some of it, see it as harmful, as just not a good fit for me, as being forced into a mold that isn't right. That's what it's feeling like. I'm so tired of trying to make myself do the correct therapy-type thing like being assertive, getting connected to my feelings, etc, all that stuff, and feeling like I'm not good at it and it doesn't make me any happier anyway. If my life isn't better after 10 years why am I trying? My therapist says my life is better but it doesn't feel better. It feels more small and isolated and constrictive and I still feel totally dependent on the therapist. I'm sick of trying to be different and better. I want to just be my own odd isolated emotionally unexpressive self and be OK.Maybe this particular type of therapy isn't right for you. Have you ever listed the pluses from the ten years of therapy you've done? You'll be amazed. Trust me. Please. Just try it.
I think you can still be yourself 'odd isolated emotionally unexpressive' as you put it and be okay. I don't know how to get to that point but I believe it is possible.
Corny Californian question here--how much work have you done where you are truly in touch with your heart? I mean the heart chakra and all that jazz. Something about what you've written in this last paragraph strikes me hard as an unhealed issue involving the heart---grief, pain, sorrow, anger.....not sure but something very old and held in the heart.
I might be crazy too. Ya never know with this place.
I wish you well. I admire your courage in sharing your experiences with the board. I haven't even been able to do that much. Kudos to you.
zenhussy
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 20:01:44
In reply to Re: Ready to Throw in the Towel » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on December 18, 2003, at 7:39:48
> (I'm a bit stressed, so please try to read this as a tactful and supportive response, even if it doesn't quite come across that way...)
Falls, it's a lovely response. I'm glad you're brave enough to even post to me at all after I spouted off to you for no good reason.
>
> Group can be hard. I know what you mean about spending all your time changing when you just want to be you. I think that they are not looking for you to be different inside - they are just looking for you to be more transparent, so that they can see who the you IS inside. It is a difference in *behavior* rather than a difference in your essence?That's a nice way to view it. It made me feel a lot better to read this.
>
> Have you told the one who doesn't like you how you see HER behavior? Does anyone in the group agree with you? (I know, doesn't sound like a fun topic at all - but it might be helpful)I'll post an update.. apparently I'm doing quite a bit of filtering.. or else my therapist is nuts.. or the two of them are secret lovers or something
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 20:24:12
In reply to Re: Ready to Throw in the Towel » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 20:01:44
Thanks for your replies. You all made a lot of good points. I spend much of my individual session today talking about my perception of the woman, the 'harpy shrew' as zen dubbed her. My therapist has me convinced I'm filtering, and seeing the woman critically, and thinking she doesn't like me, and putting a whole negative trip onto her that doesn't match the present reality. I am convinced she doesn't like me, but the therapist says she doesn't see evidence for that, she sees the woman has tried to connect with me. We went over lots of things. I can't really just un-do my perception, but I can sure see that I'm convinced the woman doesn't like me, and I'm being annoyed by just about everything she says, so I can see I'm not liking her. The therapist explained that where it will go is that I'll shut the woman out, see what I want to see, and she'll end up REALLY not liking me and give up on me.
I agreed to try to be open to her. I came up with the idea of trying to visualize the two of us bonding, so maybe I can start some positive feelings toward her. I had one helpful insight that I can't imagine that woman might like me because she seems too stable and normal. She seems above me somehow. In the past when I had relationships with women I thought were above me (socially assured, better looking or whatever), I felt I had to play second-fiddle to them and kiss up to get them to relate to me. So I assume if I don't kiss up, this woman will reject me. That isn't really fair to assume, is it?
About the expressiveness.. I brought that up and explained how hurtful it was. When the therapist asked me if being expressive was a goal, I assumed she was saying it should be, but she said that isn't what she meant. I don't get that either. Why would she ask then? When the group meets again (not for 3 weeks) I may tell them that being expressive isn't a goal right now. Maybe it will be, but it isn't now. I may actually make a list of what my goals are, then I could share that with them.
Now I have 2 weeks off from group AND individual. Thank goodness. It's very difficult having all this upheaval and not knowing what's 'real' and what's my past perception, projection, etc. It's way harder than individual ever was.
Posted by Dinah on December 18, 2003, at 20:27:21
In reply to Re: Falls, Dinah, Zen, everyone, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 20:24:12
I can't imagine putting myself in that situation. Ordinary social discourse is difficult enough for me.
I hope you appreciate yourself.
Posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 20:33:02
In reply to Re: Falls, Dinah, Zen, everyone, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 20:24:12
> Thanks for your replies. You all made a lot of good points. I spend much of my individual session today talking about my perception of the woman, the 'harpy shrew' as zen dubbed her. My therapist has me convinced I'm filtering, and seeing the woman critically, and thinking she doesn't like me, and putting a whole negative trip onto her that doesn't match the present reality. I am convinced she doesn't like me, but the therapist says she doesn't see evidence for that, she sees the woman has tried to connect with me. We went over lots of things. I can't really just un-do my perception, but I can sure see that I'm convinced the woman doesn't like me, and I'm being annoyed by just about everything she says, so I can see I'm not liking her. The therapist explained that where it will go is that I'll shut the woman out, see what I want to see, and she'll end up REALLY not liking me and give up on me.
> I agreed to try to be open to her. I came up with the idea of trying to visualize the two of us bonding, so maybe I can start some positive feelings toward her. I had one helpful insight that I can't imagine that woman might like me because she seems too stable and normal. She seems above me somehow. In the past when I had relationships with women I thought were above me (socially assured, better looking or whatever), I felt I had to play second-fiddle to them and kiss up to get them to relate to me. So I assume if I don't kiss up, this woman will reject me. That isn't really fair to assume, is it?
> About the expressiveness.. I brought that up and explained how hurtful it was. When the therapist asked me if being expressive was a goal, I assumed she was saying it should be, but she said that isn't what she meant. I don't get that either. Why would she ask then? When the group meets again (not for 3 weeks) I may tell them that being expressive isn't a goal right now. Maybe it will be, but it isn't now. I may actually make a list of what my goals are, then I could share that with them.
> Now I have 2 weeks off from group AND individual. Thank goodness. It's very difficult having all this upheaval and not knowing what's 'real' and what's my past perception, projection, etc. It's way harder than individual ever was.Tabitha,
Crap. My advice about harpy shrew was 180 from your therapist's. Hmmmm. Therapist has professional degree. I'm schmoe who posts on Internet message board. Let's rethink the sources.....
I think the drawing up a list is a terrific idea. You sound like you've had your perspectives shaken up and need a good rest to let them settle out again and make sense of it all. Thank goodness for the break!
You are doing hard work. Recognize and reward yourself for doing so. Please! How about over the next three weeks while group doesn't meet you could post one positive/fun/nice/rewarding thing you've done for yourself. Sound like something you could do?
Thank you for sharing the updates and again you're doing remarkable work here. Be proud.
zh
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 21:18:23
In reply to Re: Falls, Dinah, Zen, everyone » tabitha, posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 20:33:02
> Crap. My advice about harpy shrew was 180 from your therapist's. Hmmmm. Therapist has professional degree. I'm schmoe who posts on Internet message board. Let's rethink the sources.....
Chuckle. I think the key difference is she's there in the room, while you're just hearing my report, which has already gone through my filter.
>
> You are doing hard work. Recognize and reward yourself for doing so. Please! How about over the next three weeks while group doesn't meet you could post one positive/fun/nice/rewarding thing you've done for yourself. Sound like something you could do?I will if you will :-)
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 21:25:44
In reply to Re: You have my admiration » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 18, 2003, at 20:27:21
> I can't imagine putting myself in that situation. Ordinary social discourse is difficult enough for me.
>
> I hope you appreciate yourself.Thank you. I'm not sure I could keep going if I didn't have folks like you to patch me up after the sessions.
On the plus side.. unlike ordinary social discourse it's OK to dissolve into tears and tell people those things you're thinking that you'd normally have to keep to yourself. There have even been some warm moments. I just post more about the difficulties.
This is the end of the thread.
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