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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
We continued in today's session the topic from last week. My anger that I couldn't trust my family. But this time with a twist.
My therapist thinks, and I would agree, that trust is the major difficulty I have in most relationships and the thing that keeps my relationships from being as deep as they could be.
I think that as a relationship builds, you disclose a bit more, and see how the other person reacts. As you find a person trustworthy on a certain level, you go a bit deeper. And if you hit a roadblock, where you want something that someone can't give, you try a few times at that level and then you accept the parameters of the relationship. And it's fine to settle for that. That the relationship can be perfectly satisfactory where it is, even if ideally you might like more intimacy.
My therapist thinks there is a flaw in my relationship skills there. That it's limiting in life to accept those parameters. He suggests saying something like "I enjoy our friendship and would like to bring it to a more intimate level. If you're also interested in that, maybe we could work on it." And then if the person is interested, I tell them where I'm having difficulty in trusting them more fully and what I need from them, and invite them to do the same.
I think this is a very strange idea. I can see doing it with my husband. We're bound to each other by law and by obligation. I've done it with my therapist, with very good results. We struggled and wrestled our way to a better therapeutic relationship through quite a few roadblocks. But he was bound by ethics and by financial interest to try to work through it.
But to try this approach with friends seems very odd indeed. First of all, wouldn't it be likely to hurt their feelings? And second, people don't change substantially all that often. Is it really worth jeopardizing what you have in an attempt to build a deeper relationship that most likely won't work out anyway? A friendship would have to be pretty strong to begin with to survive such a thing, I would guess.
What do you guys think? Is my therapist a bit touched in the upper works? Or are my relationship skills even more lacking than I had thought?
Posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2003, at 16:26:44
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
I think that you would need to be at a reasonably close level to say something like that. But if you are close I could see it working. Just like we're lonely for intimate relationships, our friends probably are, too.
I don't see how it would hurt their feelings. You are saying that you think they are cool enough that you want to know them better. Then you say that *you* have an issue - trust - and you are asking them for their help. That seems all positive to me.
It could backfire if they said that they weren't interested in being any closer with you - then your feelings would be hurt.
I think that I usually can tell when a relationship can go deeper. I wouldn't try it with someone who I didn't feel really compatable with. But, in a sense, if you never take a risk you never get anywhere.
Posted by Tabitha on September 29, 2003, at 17:59:25
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
Hmm, I don't know. I haven't had much success with applying therapist-type advice to do unusual things in relationships. Maybe if you're with someone who also has somewhat of a personal growth bent it might be interesting (or even successful). Otherwise, I'd be afraid of just seeming odd and frightening the person off. Or just putting too much pressure on the relationship.I get his point though, that it isn't necessarily good to just stop when you think you've found the boundary. After all, you might be mistaken, or there might be some other way around the roadblock, if you discuss it.
I don't know where therapists get these ideas. Maybe all their friends are therapists, and there's some alternate culture they inhabit where such tactics are common. OK, I think I sound a bit cynical right now. Probably shouldn't be sharing my opinion.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 19:13:22
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Tabitha on September 29, 2003, at 17:59:25
Chuckle. No, share away. That was my original reaction to his suggestion. Sort of an incredulous are you kidding reaction. And it really hasn't changed much although I've been giving it a lot of thought.
My therapist swears he has done this in friendships. My therapist doesn't lie. It's one of the more amusing things about him, because telling the truth is not always therapeutic. So watching him try to tell the truth in a therapeutic manner is always good entertainment. So I believe that he has done this at least once outside of therapy. I have to think it had to be a potential spouse or something though. I can't quite imagine him sitting around Hooters, watching a game, swilling beer, and suggesting that he and his bud deepen the intimacy in their relationship. Unless, as you say, all of his friends are therapists.
So.... In the interests of therapeutic harmony, I'm willing to compromise. I'm willing to try his approach with my husband. (Prepare for a tearful relationship post.) And I'm willing to try to take more chances in friendships and not be quite so quick to accept limitations. But I'm still going to accept them. To do otherwise seems so... rude.
Posted by DaisyM on September 29, 2003, at 19:21:58
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
Trust has been on my mind ALOT as of late so it is an interesting thing to apply to friendships. It seems to me that there is trust...and then there is TRUST. I agree with you, Dinah, that deep intimincy should be saved for a significant other, maybe family, and really rare friends.
And really, how many people do you want to have such deep relationship with? It gets exhausting sometimes, I think. It is actually nice sometimes to be with individuals who don't want to really know "how you are doing." You don't have to re-live all the bad stuff, or pretend you are ok, you can just chit chat or have fun. I think going through experiences with someone is the most authentic way to deepen a relationship anyway. Shared memories, good and bad, supporting each other at different times, etc., etc.
Dinah, I don't think your social skills are off on this one. I do agree with fallsfall that we are all lonely for deep connections but too many can be as tough as too few. Having said all of that, I am the first to admit that opening my soul up to someone is as scary as it gets for me.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 19:37:00
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2003, at 16:26:44
Yeah. I agree about the risk taking. And with the help of my therapist and Babble and Babble related friendships I am getting waaaay better at taking chances in relationships.
I know why he's doing it. He's trying to get me to take the success I've had in negotiating the transference and the therapeutic relationship and use it to widen my social support network (and lessen my dependence on him). But real life doesn't work like therapy. And I think it's naive to assume that the things I do in therapy, and that I strongly encourage others to do with their therapists, can be applied to other relationships. Not even marital relationships and certainly not less intense relationships.
I do see some areas where I could have easily had more trust and had richer relationships. My best friend that died. Looking back (and I'm not one to deify someone just because they died) she was someone I could have trusted. And someone who was open to a more intimate friendship. But I kept it at a more superficial level than it needed to be. She opened herself up to me, she shared, and I listened. I didn't reciprocate. I griped about the usual griping things - husband, bosses, etc. But I didn't go as deeply as I really think I could have. I now regret that missed chance.
And in the real life friendship arena I'm still woefully lacking and plagued by negative self evaluation. I am positive that I have nothing to offer and that no one would want to be bothered with me. I had a pushy mom, which embarassed me no end, and sent me in the opposite direction of wanting to be overly sure that I don't bother anyone.
But my negative self assessment is well founded, and reinforced by years of unsuccessful social interaction. I'm admittedly eccentric by any standard. Plus... to be blunt, I'm plain as a post. Ugly even. And my manner of dressing is sloppy, even when I try for better (which admittedly is not as often as it should be). While that isn't supposed to matter, the simple fact is that in the real world it does.
I want to be a good patient, and try to please him. But.... Oh well, I'll try my best.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 19:47:12
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on September 29, 2003, at 19:21:58
Yeah, giving someone the power to hurt you by opening up to them is so scary. It was five years before I trusted my trust in my therapist. I put him through heck before then. And I can count on one hand with fingers to spare how many people I really trust. That's why I'm so fond of dogs.
I've never been great with casual friendships either though. The easy comaraderie is nearly as hard for me as intimacy. :(
On the other hand, I do alone very well. :)
Posted by Adia on September 29, 2003, at 20:56:16
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
Dear Dinah,
Thank you for sharing..Trust issues stop me from deeeping my relationships too..
I think you need to have a deep level of trust to be able to say something like what your therapist suggested,but that it could be worthwhile and it could help to deepen intimacy in a friendship, if you feel close enough to be able to talk in such an open way..I don't like risking being rejected or left, and sometimes I am scared of burdening people or of scaring people away...that's why I would tell you to try with friends you feel you can trust...
Opening up to other people is really hard for me, as it gives them the power to hurt me and sometimes I am really afraid to take risks...
but there have been times when I've tried to talk or go deeper in a friendship and with a friend it worked..
In one case, I told a friend that I was having problems trusting or knowing how to feel close or open up more but that I truly wanted to be able to give more of myself or share more from my heart, that I felt i was hiding so much of my real safe and my life..and that I wanted to be able to be completely honest with her in everything...but that I was scared..and we talked about that...and I tried to be honest to her and tell her what I was working on in therapy...and just open my heart..and it worked..really well..and she told me that she was happy I had taken that step and it encouraged her to open up to me and now I know I can count on her and share almost anything...It brought us closer together..
I find it hard to have relationships in which I have to pretend everything's fine or I am someone I am not...and I've found that it is worth risking or trying to share or let someone closer...because it might work and you may be surprised...
since bringing that up to my friend, I was even able to cry with her and that is something I don't do often and it was really good for me to be able to experience real closeness with a friend...
in some other cases it didn't work so well to be so honest and open about my feelings and fears...but I learnt who I could trust and who truly cared about me and where I could turn for support and who valued my friendship...
It's hard to let people close, but it can be soooo rewarding when it works ..and maybe you can start bringing it up slowly...and sharing a bit more and test whether it is okay to go a little further or not...that's what I try to do...
I find that being honest about feelings helps deepen a friendship..I've talked to my friend about my fear of being rejected or of her thinking less of me if I share more...and she has shared with me..when she has needed space or has been quiet...and it works well...
Well, just wanted to share how it has worked for me,
I wish you the best...
thank you for sharing.....
Adia.
> We continued in today's session the topic from last week. My anger that I couldn't trust my family. But this time with a twist.
>
> My therapist thinks, and I would agree, that trust is the major difficulty I have in most relationships and the thing that keeps my relationships from being as deep as they could be.
>
> I think that as a relationship builds, you disclose a bit more, and see how the other person reacts. As you find a person trustworthy on a certain level, you go a bit deeper. And if you hit a roadblock, where you want something that someone can't give, you try a few times at that level and then you accept the parameters of the relationship. And it's fine to settle for that. That the relationship can be perfectly satisfactory where it is, even if ideally you might like more intimacy.
>
> My therapist thinks there is a flaw in my relationship skills there. That it's limiting in life to accept those parameters. He suggests saying something like "I enjoy our friendship and would like to bring it to a more intimate level. If you're also interested in that, maybe we could work on it." And then if the person is interested, I tell them where I'm having difficulty in trusting them more fully and what I need from them, and invite them to do the same.
>
> I think this is a very strange idea. I can see doing it with my husband. We're bound to each other by law and by obligation. I've done it with my therapist, with very good results. We struggled and wrestled our way to a better therapeutic relationship through quite a few roadblocks. But he was bound by ethics and by financial interest to try to work through it.
>
> But to try this approach with friends seems very odd indeed. First of all, wouldn't it be likely to hurt their feelings? And second, people don't change substantially all that often. Is it really worth jeopardizing what you have in an attempt to build a deeper relationship that most likely won't work out anyway? A friendship would have to be pretty strong to begin with to survive such a thing, I would guess.
>
> What do you guys think? Is my therapist a bit touched in the upper works? Or are my relationship skills even more lacking than I had thought?
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 21:43:47
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework » Dinah, posted by Adia on September 29, 2003, at 20:56:16
Thank *you* for sharing that, Adia. It really helps to know that someone has done what my therapist suggested and it worked out for them.
It was enormously brave of you to do that.
How are things going with your therapist? I have often thought of you and your therapist lately. I've really admired your courage in dealing with that as well. I probably would have gotten all mulish and made things worse. So I hope it's working out for you.
Posted by jane d on September 29, 2003, at 23:10:33
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
I think therapists must have a "topic of the week" calendar the way other people have "word of the day". They can't just keep hitting on the same subjects by chance can can they? It's probably distributed at some annual convention or mailed out in weekly installments.
I can't see myself saying something like that to anyone but then no one in their right mind would take my advice on relationships. It's just occurred to me however that this could explain some weird things people have said to me over the years (not necessarily about deepening their relationship with me. :) . They were probably just carrying out homework assignments. Maybe I didn't need to edge nervously away from them after all.
Posted by Tabitha on September 30, 2003, at 0:27:39
In reply to OK. Now I'm sure of it. » Dinah, posted by jane d on September 29, 2003, at 23:10:33
too funny-- except it's the laughing through the pain kind of funny-- remembering all the therapy homework assignments I've tried to carry out, and the awkward results.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 7:27:02
In reply to OK. Now I'm sure of it. » Dinah, posted by jane d on September 29, 2003, at 23:10:33
ROFL.
I can see it now. The weekly calendar of therapy subjects. Did yours come complete with homework?
I used my husband for my homework assignment, and it went reasonably well. Of course, this morning he was his usual self. There was no change whatsoever a scant eight hours after our conversation. So I'm figuring this theory of my therapist's is a load of foolishness. People just do not change. They particularly do not change to enhance relationships unless it is their idea.
But maybe that's just me giving in too easily at a roadblock again. (Or is it me protecting my delicate skull from ramming it against a brick wall too many times).
Posted by ridesredhorses on September 30, 2003, at 9:48:27
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
I'm sorry you are stressed. Here is my question: to how many 'friends' does the 'average' person open his or her soul? I have a couple of long-time, close friends. We have been through allot together, and the journey has developed our closeness in the way that only shared transactions could. When I make new friends, I don't try to bring the transactions of the past into our relationship, unless in story sharing it is appropriate. Each new relationship has its own depth and potential. This is for me, not necessarily anyone else, ok? But I could never expect 'sue' to be able to understand the feelings and such that I share with 'betty' or 'tom' unless 'sue' was a part of what took place, too. And then, maybe 'sue' and 'betty' derived different things from the experience. So, It all depends on the individual relationship, after all. Does that make sense? I have shared too much with friends trying to force a relationship that was just not there...because I so wanted it to be there. For me, slow and observant is better. I can just barely accept myself most of the time' how can I expect everyone else to accept me, and how can I criticize them if they don't? They can't be mean or disrespectful to me, but they don't have to want to be close to me. Oh, I think I'll print this and pin a copy to my wall...I had no idea I had become so well adjusted!!!
Good luck.
Red
Posted by judy1 on September 30, 2003, at 9:54:21
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » jane d, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 7:27:02
Dinah,
I was once married to a shrink (now there's a story) and they all talked that way. I never knew anyone outside the 'psych profession' who used terms like that. I could just see me going to a friend and suggesting we have a more intimate relationship- guys would say sure and women would think I'm nuts, which I am but that's besides the point. It looks like you have a handle on this.
take care, judy
Posted by Adia on September 30, 2003, at 11:27:32
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework » Adia, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 21:43:47
Hi Dinah,
You are so very welcome...
I do think that it works in some cases, to be open about your feelings..with a few close friends. It is so rewarding to be able to have a friendship where you can be yourself totally and open your heart. I have that with one or two friends.
Thank you for saying that was brave! I felt I had no choice, because my trust issues do show...Thanks for asking about how things are going with my therapist..I feel much safer in the relationship with her, and I feel she wants the best for me and wants to help me open up so we can work together..but I still feel lost..I told her the last time that I wanted to leave knowing and feeling that I am heading somewhere and I am not lost, and that I wanted to find hope and feel that I can make progress somehow, and she said I have to realize that I can do it...more than just asking if she thinks I can. That I have to take courage and stop protecting myself so much and just let myself share..
I have tried to be really there in the last 2 sessions we've had, and I am trying to at least tell her what's happening or what I'm feeling, but I still can't find the way to just let go and talk and tell her what I feel or what I want to share...She wants me to talk as the adult me, feeling I have the right to talk about my feelings and share and be there..and not so from the little girl that gets all scared and feels this urgency of feeling hopeful and not so lost and can't say anything because the urgency and hopelessness inside is overwhelming.
My t says I give her the titles of things but I don't go deep and I run away...but she says she feels me trying harder now..and I do believe that if I am able to talk more, and give more of myself, she will guide me through and work with me..I just feel a little lost cause it is so hard..but I do feel safer and I feel we're working together and that what happened actually helped us and now I feel her closer, I felt hopeful last time I saw her and that was important for me...
I am counting the days and hours till next friday..it gets so hard in-between sessions.
Thank you for asking and being here...
I love reading what you share and it's so nice to be here...
Thanks again!!
I wish you deep sharing and closeness with your close friends :-)
all the best,
adia.> Thank *you* for sharing that, Adia. It really helps to know that someone has done what my therapist suggested and it worked out for them.
>
> It was enormously brave of you to do that.
>
> How are things going with your therapist? I have often thought of you and your therapist lately. I've really admired your courage in dealing with that as well. I probably would have gotten all mulish and made things worse. So I hope it's working out for you.
Posted by HannahW on September 30, 2003, at 13:08:59
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
I think the answer to your question is complicated, and depends on a lot of things. What are your existing relationships like? I doubt your therapist wanted you to have that conversation with every one of your friends. Probably just one, or two at the most. Do you have any friends that that would even be appropriate with? It's probably not appropriate with that nice clerk at the grocery store you always talk to, but if you have someone you have lunch with every week, I don't think it's so outrageous.
I think I'd try to come up with a different way of phrasing it, though. Like, "I'd really like to get to know you better..." or "I feel like I've been holding back from you, but I'm working on lowering my defenses."
I have to agree, though, that therapists seem to live in a different world. I've been talking to mine about how sensitive I am to rejection. She thinks that when I have been rejected I should say, "Gee, I really thought we had some potential here, and that we were on the same page. I guess not." AS IF!!! If somebody rejected me once, why would I set myself up to let them reject me again?! When I told her that I was afraid the person might say something like, "Why on earth would you think we had potential?" Her response: "So what?" Good grief.
Posted by jane d on September 30, 2003, at 13:19:06
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » jane d, posted by Tabitha on September 30, 2003, at 0:27:39
> too funny-- except it's the laughing through the pain kind of funny-- remembering all the therapy homework assignments I've tried to carry out, and the awkward results.
>Yeah. Most of my laughing tends to be that kind - but hey - at least it's laughter. I've given myself assignments of that kind over the years - usually not with great results. No assignments from therapy. Yet. I'm sure it's coming and I suppose that's when we'll have to go into my "issues" with homework dating back to elementary school. Actually I couldn't have had issues with homework. I almost never touched the stuff.
Jane, laughing again (sort of)
Posted by Poet on September 30, 2003, at 15:01:40
In reply to Trust - A therapy homework, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2003, at 13:19:46
Hi Dinah,
I just logged in and saw your message from yesterday. I have major trust issues, also. I don't think that I need all of my friends to know me intimately. I don't want to know every detail about their lives either.
I do have one friend who I talk to on the phone a few times a week that I feel comfortable opening up to. I know that she will keep my secrets and I will keep hers. We're kind of like each other's other therapist (we're both in therapy with different therapists.)
While this might be as your therapist says limiting my relationships but I am comfortable with it.
Just thought I'd share my perspective.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on September 30, 2003, at 16:45:31
In reply to Re: Trust - A therapy homework » Dinah, posted by Adia on September 30, 2003, at 11:27:32
Sounds like things are improving with your therapist. Good for you! This isn't easy. You've made some progress, and you'll make some more progress. And one day you will be where you want to be.
Posted by fallsfall on September 30, 2003, at 16:53:13
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » jane d, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 7:27:02
People are not going to change overnight. And they aren't necessarily going to change drastically. I would expect to see a gradual change. Perhaps you have "the talk" (with whatever words you feel comfortable) one day, and then a couple of days later maybe you share something that is a little riskier than you have in the past, and then a week later, the other person shares something. I think it takes time for two reasons: first, it takes people time to process the idea that you are safe enough to be more intimate with, and second, you have to wait until the person has something of interest to share.
I think that you don't want the intimacy. Why not?
Just take it slow and let things build one step at a time.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 18:25:36
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » Dinah, posted by judy1 on September 30, 2003, at 9:54:21
After hearing more from you guys, I definitely feel more comfortable telling my therapist I thought about it and don't think it's quite my style. Maybe we could talk about alternative (and less extreme) approaches. For example, if someone does something that diminishes my trust in them, I don't mind telling them how I feel about their actions. That seems within the bounds of fairly normal behavior.
You're right, Judy. They maybe do talk like that themselves. But that doesn't mean they should expect the rest of the world to do it. I'd love to see a bunch of them together though.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 18:50:03
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it., posted by fallsfall on September 30, 2003, at 16:53:13
I wouldn't say that I don't want the intimacy. I've fought pretty hard to build a good therapeutic relationship. I've made really good online friendships.
When I said that people don't change, I was talking about my experience with my nearest and dearest over the years. I have no reason to believe that people change.
Well, that's not entirely true. My mother used to regularly rage at me, and say very hurtful things like I was no longer her daughter and she hated me. It used to hurt like h*ll. Then one day I looked at her, and she wasn't my mother anymore. The emotional connection was gone. She no longer had the power to hurt me. And in time she saw that and quit her behavior. Because at that point the relationship was more important to her than it was to me. And she knew I would just walk off if she started that nonsense, while we could have an amicable relationship as long as she was pleasant. Did she change? I suppose her behavior did. But I'd never trust her again with my heart.
My father was subject to black moods that lasted for months. You just didn't want to talk to him or have him notice you at those times. Then other times he was the dad I loved. He never was physically abusive to any of us, but he was emotionally abusive to my mother and brother. He'd say the most horrible things about my brother, how worthless he was, stuff like that. He'd threaten to kill people, including my mom. He didn't do more than yell at me about my immediate actions. Or tell me my flaws, maybe. As his favorite person, I was exempt from the worst. I do love him. But leave my heart open and vulnerable to him? I don't think so. And he never has changed either, except to get more bitter with age.
And my husband doesn't change either. He is a nice guy overall, but rather dense emotionally. Even my therapist (who's met him) won't tell me that it's safe to open my heart and be vulnerable to him.
Do I want intimacy in my life? Yes, I do. And I keep trying, even though my major lesson in life is that it brings pain. But I still think that people just don't change. They either are safe people or they aren't. And you learn that by experience. And if you learn they are safe up to a certain point, you don't cross that point. And you enjoy what you have of them. Just as I enjoy what I have of my parents and my husband but don't really expect any more. People are what they are. I don't really understand why my therapist challenges my opinion on that. I really don't understand.
Posted by Tabitha on September 30, 2003, at 19:14:44
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 18:50:03
you know Dinah, I think it's a great skill that you have, if you can accept people for what they are and not push for more. I always get into trouble wanting more and being mad at them for not giving more (usually leads to withdrawing), or else pushing for more (usually leads to conflict).
In fact I think I had one therapist tell me I should learn to do what you do-- accept them for what they give, enjoy it, and try to fill the missing needs with other people. She was a lot less idealistic than the typical therapist.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 21:09:56
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it. » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on September 30, 2003, at 19:14:44
Thanks Tabitha. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who sees my attitude as pragmatic rather than pathological. :)
I guess most therapists tend to be idealistic, particularly about a person's ability to change. Otherwise they'd have a hard time with their jobs. I'll try to keep that in mind when I talk with mine.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 21:10:44
In reply to Re: OK. Now I'm sure of it., posted by Dinah on September 30, 2003, at 21:09:56
This is the end of the thread.
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