![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 8, 2004, at 9:32:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 7, 2004, at 22:41:21
> > Ron and I may be in a special category.....long-term chronic dysfunction. Maybe that's a factor in responsiveness. Our cellular machinery might be breaking down.
>
> Unfortunatley, I've had over twenty years of depression so I'm sure I'd qualify for "long-term chronic dysfunction". Maybe it will work for me too then.:-/ Sorry to hear that.
> > On an empty stomach, a dose of a pure amino acid enters the blood as a bolus, a term for a sudden concentration increase. That temporarily distorts the proportions of all circulating amino acids, and lets the effect of DLPA dominate. If you increase the size of the bolus (i.e. by taking a single dose of 2,000 mg vs. 500 mg) you increase the magnitude of that concentration distortion. If you instead separate that 2,000 mg into four doses of 500 mg, you get four small concentration peaks, rather than one big (and potentially overwhelming) one.
> >
>
> I was just a little jittery with 500-750 mg. of DLPA. Adding the chocolate was what really made me shakey and jumpy. Also, I'm hypoglycemic. I usually only eat a lot of sugar in combination with other food so I don't get a sugar rush. I can't remember what else I had that day along with the chocolate though. When I took 500 mg. DLPA I was fine.Good!
> So maybe if I were to try that for twice a day without chocolate... It's a real nuisance though to wait a couple of hours after a meal to take the supplements, then wait another half hour before you can eat and do that several times a day. You end up with your whole life revolving around your supplements schedule. I couldn't stand that.
Considerations like that are a big part of my own psyche; if something is too much of a pain in the butt, it just doesn't happen.
"Empty stomach" really means "no other protein/amino acids present", in this case. When you arise in the morning, and reach for a coffee, you can probably get away with taking the DLPA, unless your coffee is a latte. A dribble of milk would be irrelevant, but half a cup would be relevant.
Another "red flag" thought is hunger. If I start getting a meal ready, I down my "empty stomach" supps. By the time I'm finished preparing the food.....
> > I'm perhaps more cynical. It's darned easy to acetylate an amine. Just because e.g. N-acetyl cysteine is a specific enzyme substrate doesn't necessarily mean that N-acetylation is a general enhancer of function. I need to look more closely at the subject. I'm just giving you my gut reaction here.
>
> So your gut is telling you that the specialized Norival product is probably not a big improvement over the regular l-tyroise. Maybe not worth a try then.That is my gut reaction, subject to revision upon more thorough research. Your body already has transporters for tyrosine and phenylalanine, and each has high affinity thereto.
> Someday I ought to try an MAOI. I always wake up slow moving, depressed, irritable and my mind is like mush - unable to focus or think clearly. This situation slowly gets better as the day goes on. By the time most people are ready to leave their jobs, I'm just starting to wake up. That makes me think that I have too much MAO which is active when I'm sleeping. (Isn't that when most reuptake occurs?) Or is this just the norm for those of us with atypical type depression?
Having just arisen, with mush brain, etc., I can't speak with authority. What you describe makes me think of what is called adrenal exhaustion (in the alternative realm of medicine).
Here's the geeky "standard" version:
http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/front/740%20Class%20Spring%202003/Gold%20%20Organization%20of%20the%20stress%20system.pdfAnd here's the alternative reality:
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/stress4-4.htmlAt this point, I would like to thank you for asking these questions. My own self-care is less than optimal, but when someone leads me to reconsider some of the issues related to treating these symptoms, I find myself refocussing on specific concepts and treatments. My own brain doesn't treat me as well as I wish to treat others.
> >
> > > >
> > > > You really ought to give TMG (trimethylglycine) a try. It has profound effects on my energy level. In fact, I have to be very cautious about dose because it exacerbates my insomnia.
> > > >
>
> I'll definitely have to five TMG a try. Anything that can help with my energy would be amazing.
>
> > > Wouldn't TMG do the same thing as SAM-e? Since I had no result whatsoever form that, is it still worth trying the TMG also?
> >
> > Just throwing SAMe into a person is not the same naturally increasing SAMe precursors. Your body has exquisitely refined feedback regulators to control the *localized* availability of reactive molecules. Saturating the body with SAMe is not the same as letting your body create SAMe where it is needed. And I'm not yet considering the fact that too much SAMe is associated with high blood levels of homocysteine. There are other implications to consider.
> >
> > I think it is no coincidence that the human genome carries within it all the instructions for the induction of the formation of an enzyme which processes TMG. In other words, if the diet begins to supply TMG, the liver DNA activates the production of an enzyme with one known function, the methylation of homocysteine to methionine. Betaine (beet amine, as TMG is found in sugar beets) is another name for TMG, and that enzyme is called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase.
> >
> > Maybe TMG has other functions (I know of a couple), which we don't fully understand. The thing is, taking TMG doesn't distort your natural biochemistry. In fact, your body is actually primed with a latent capacity to use TMG if it makes its way into the diet. However it is that your body actually works, I am confident it "knows" what to do with TMG.
> >
> (Assuming you're not short on that enzyme) (betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase)It isn't normally present at high levels in the liver, but it is inducible. Concentration of the enzyme multiplies dramatically, if the raw material is present. It is possible that some people have a genetic defect, and cannot produce this enzyme, but that's unlikely.
> Also, what about taking l-methionine directly? I actually have some of that here.
I've use methionine, and it does not do the same thing as TMG. Perhaps the difference is related to decreases in homocysteine. Taking methionine will not reduce homocysteine levels. Or, perhaps the difference has to do with formation of the end-product of the reaction with homocysteine, which yields not only methionine, but also dimethylglycine (DMG), which is used by weightlifters.
> > Just for the record, on recent days (two instances) when I have used NADH and TMG, I am substantially enhanced in functioning the *next* day, and on subsequent days, rather than on the day I dosed.
> >
> > I am using single 750 mg tablets of TMG, Source Naturals brand. The first dose of Enada NADH was 10 mg, the second was five.
>
> BTW, Is Source Naturals DLPA any good?My personal opinion is that Source Naturals products are trustworthy.
> > Actually, about three years ago, I was fervent proponent of Rhodiola. I had actually considered going into the business of preparing Rhodiola for sale, and marketing my own brand. I knew people whose lives had been miraculously transformed by it. My own reaction was adverse, however. I had a paradoxical reaction to it (the opposite of what is expected). I have paradoxical reactions to pharmaceutical drugs, too, some of the time. Anyway, it messed me up, and I lost my ambition to market Rhodiola.
>
> Now that I read about your paradoxical reaction to the Rhodiola, I do recall your mentioning that before. It's encouraging that many people have had such huge success but unfortunate that you weren't one of them. Are you more inclined to be anxious or are you more in need of energy and motivation?I have anxious reactions. It's a trait. I developed energy and motivation problems. That's a state. Traits you're born with, states you develop.
> >
> > > I just bought some of that and am really looking forward to trying it. I just have to decide if I want to take it with the small amount of Effexor instead of the SJW while I withdraw ... Decisions, decisions....
> > >
> I have taken two pills of the Arctic brand so far. One each on two different days. This only equals 180 mg. So far so good. Today I definitely felt more able to concentrate after taking it. I am no longer worried about tolerating it. I am more worried that it won't do much and will be another dead end. Short half life though? That means withdrawal, doesn't it?I'm very glad you are having a good initial reaction to it. Russian herbal practise is to use an herb for no more than four months, stop for at least one month, and restart as necessary. That pattern can be continued indefinitely. Withdrawal is seldom a problem with herbs, probably because they have such complex chemistry (hundreds of constituents, taken simultaneously). All I meant by the short half-life remark was that, if an adverse reaction occurs, it ends quickly upon ceasing intake. The adverse herbal reactions are generally self-limiting.
Good luck with the Rhodiola. The gent who turned me on to it had astounding results.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 9, 2004, at 2:17:54
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 8, 2004, at 9:32:30
>
> > > Ron and I may be in a special category.....long-term chronic dysfunction. Maybe that's a factor in responsiveness. Our cellular machinery might be breaking down.
> >
> > Unfortunatley, I've had over twenty years of depression so I'm sure I'd qualify for "long-term chronic dysfunction". Maybe it will work for me too then.
>
> :-/ Sorry to hear that.Thanks but I determined to change that soon. I'm going to explore and research until I find something(s) that work for me. Sorry to hear that you're in that category also.
>
> > > On an empty stomach, a dose of a pure amino acid enters the blood as a bolus, a term for a sudden concentration increase. That temporarily distorts the proportions of all circulating amino acids, and lets the effect of DLPA dominate. If you increase the size of the bolus (i.e. by taking a single dose of 2,000 mg vs. 500 mg) you increase the magnitude of that concentration distortion. If you instead separate that 2,000 mg into four doses of 500 mg, you get four small concentration peaks, rather than one big (and potentially overwhelming) one.
> > >
> >
> > I was just a little jittery with 500-750 mg. of DLPA. Adding the chocolate was what really made me shakey and jumpy. Also, I'm hypoglycemic. I usually only eat a lot of sugar in combination with other food so I don't get a sugar rush. I can't remember what else I had that day along with the chocolate though. When I took 500 mg. DLPA I was fine.
>
> Good!
>So I should be able to tolerate it - I just hope that it can do something for me.
> > So maybe if I were to try that for twice a day without chocolate... It's a real nuisance though to wait a couple of hours after a meal to take the supplements, then wait another half hour before you can eat and do that several times a day. You end up with your whole life revolving around your supplements schedule. I couldn't stand that.
>
> Considerations like that are a big part of my own psyche; if something is too much of a pain in the butt, it just doesn't happen.
>I don't think there are many people who could tolerate that kind of a schedule. That's a case where the cure is worse than the illness!
> "Empty stomach" really means "no other protein/amino acids present", in this case. When you arise in the morning, and reach for a coffee, you can probably get away with taking the DLPA, unless your coffee is a latte. A dribble of milk would be irrelevant, but half a cup would be relevant.
>
Trouble is that if I have just coffee, it will wreak havoc with my blood sugar because of hypoglycemia. I start getting really shakey, weak and light-headed. I'd really have to take it before breakfast or coffee.> Another "red flag" thought is hunger. If I start getting a meal ready, I down my "empty stomach" supps. By the time I'm finished preparing the food.....
I'll have to learn to cook more elaborate meals. I've been quite lazy lately but it would certainly work out better if I did more cooking.
> > > I'm perhaps more cynical. It's darned easy to acetylate an amine. Just because e.g. N-acetyl cysteine is a specific enzyme substrate doesn't necessarily mean that N-acetylation is a general enhancer of function. I need to look more closely at the subject. I'm just giving you my gut reaction here.
> >
> > So your gut is telling you that the specialized Norival product is probably not a big improvement over the regular l-tyroise. Maybe not worth a try then.>
> That is my gut reaction, subject to revision upon more thorough research. Your body already has transporters for tyrosine and phenylalanine, and each has high affinity thereto.
>I'll probably forget the tyrosine then. I think the DLPA is probably a better bet for me anyway.(Can't believe I didn't catch the bad spelling of it up above. Where is spell check when you need it?)
> > Someday I ought to try an MAOI. I always wake up slow moving, depressed, irritable and my mind is like mush - unable to focus or think clearly. This situation slowly gets better as the day goes on. By the time most people are ready to leave their jobs, I'm just starting to wake up. That makes me think that I have too much MAO which is active when I'm sleeping. (Isn't that when most reuptake occurs?) Or is this just the norm for those of us with atypical type depression?
>
> Having just arisen, with mush brain, etc., I can't speak with authority. What you describe makes me think of what is called adrenal exhaustion (in the alternative realm of medicine).
>
Interesting... I've read a little about it but never really considered it seriously for myself. I think it was one of those things that I thought I should look into more but didn't give it more attention than that. I'll go to the sites you've given me and read up on it more this weekend. It would be nice to have a label for things I'm experiencing and also a better idea of how to "fix" it.
> Here's the geeky "standard" version:
> http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/front/740%20Class%20Spring%202003/Gold%20%20Organization%20of%20the%20stress%20system.pdf
>
> And here's the alternative reality:
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/stress4-4.html
>
> At this point, I would like to thank you for asking these questions. My own self-care is less than optimal, but when someone leads me to reconsider some of the issues related to treating these symptoms, I find myself refocussing on specific concepts and treatments. My own brain doesn't treat me as well as I wish to treat others.
>I can't believe YOU are thanking ME! You are a really sweet person. (But glad I could be of some help. I have lots of other questions to ask and I'll force myself to ask them in future postings because I do so love to help others.)
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You really ought to give TMG (trimethylglycine) a try. It has profound effects on my energy level. In fact, I have to be very cautious about dose because it exacerbates my insomnia.
> > > > >
> >
> > I'll definitely have to five TMG a try. Anything that can help with my energy would be amazing.
> >
> > > > Wouldn't TMG do the same thing as SAM-e? Since I had no result whatsoever form that, is it still worth trying the TMG also?
> > >
> > > Just throwing SAMe into a person is not the same naturally increasing SAMe precursors. Your body has exquisitely refined feedback regulators to control the *localized* availability of reactive molecules. Saturating the body with SAMe is not the same as letting your body create SAMe where it is needed. And I'm not yet considering the fact that too much SAMe is associated with high blood levels of homocysteine. There are other implications to consider.
> > >
> > > I think it is no coincidence that the human genome carries within it all the instructions for the induction of the formation of an enzyme which processes TMG. In other words, if the diet begins to supply TMG, the liver DNA activates the production of an enzyme with one known function, the methylation of homocysteine to methionine. Betaine (beet amine, as TMG is found in sugar beets) is another name for TMG, and that enzyme is called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase.
> > >
> > > Maybe TMG has other functions (I know of a couple), which we don't fully understand. The thing is, taking TMG doesn't distort your natural biochemistry. In fact, your body is actually primed with a latent capacity to use TMG if it makes its way into the diet. However it is that your body actually works, I am confident it "knows" what to do with TMG.
> > >
> > (Assuming you're not short on that enzyme) (betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase)
>
> It isn't normally present at high levels in the liver, but it is inducible. Concentration of the enzyme multiplies dramatically, if the raw material is present. It is possible that some people have a genetic defect, and cannot produce this enzyme, but that's unlikely.I never knew enzymes could be "inducible". I guess I've been thinking of them in terms of being the rate limiting factor (i.e. the reason that some claim taking l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine can't work)
>
> > Also, what about taking l-methionine directly? I actually have some of that here.
>
> I've use methionine, and it does not do the same thing as TMG. Perhaps the difference is related to decreases in homocysteine. Taking methionine will not reduce homocysteine levels. Or, perhaps the difference has to do with formation of the end-product of the reaction with homocysteine, which yields not only methionine, but also dimethylglycine (DMG), which is used by weightlifters.
>
I've also read that some people take DMG directly rather than SAM-e or TMG but from your comments above I can see where it might not be as useful.The situation you described with the body not knowing what to do with the SAM-e reminds me of the situation you described with 5-HTP. In the case of 5-HTP, if there is extra serotonin outside of the brain, can't it theoretically harm the heart (like with Phen-Fen)? (Which also makes me wonder about taking GABA supplements directly - what happens with the extra GABA that doesn't make it through the BBB?)
> > > Just for the record, on recent days (two instances) when I have used NADH and TMG, I am substantially enhanced in functioning the *next* day, and on subsequent days, rather than on the day I dosed.
Do you have any idea why that would be? You're not at all enhanced on the day you take it? Very strange when you consider that some people see improvement in an hour or two...
> > >
> > > I am using single 750 mg tablets of TMG, Source Naturals brand. The first dose of Enada NADH was 10 mg, the second was five.
> >
> > BTW, Is Source Naturals DLPA any good?
>
> My personal opinion is that Source Naturals products are trustworthy.
>
> > > Actually, about three years ago, I was fervent proponent of Rhodiola. I had actually considered going into the business of preparing Rhodiola for sale, and marketing my own brand. I knew people whose lives had been miraculously transformed by it. My own reaction was adverse, however. I had a paradoxical reaction to it (the opposite of what is expected). I have paradoxical reactions to pharmaceutical drugs, too, some of the time. Anyway, it messed me up, and I lost my ambition to market Rhodiola.
> >
> > Now that I read about your paradoxical reaction to the Rhodiola, I do recall your mentioning that before. It's encouraging that many people have had such huge success but unfortunate that you weren't one of them. Are you more inclined to be anxious or are you more in need of energy and motivation?
>
> I have anxious reactions. It's a trait. I developed energy and motivation problems. That's a state. Traits you're born with, states you develop.
>
> > >
Interesting way of putting it. I've come to see my lack of energy and motivation as more genetically based and therefore predetermined.
> > > > I just bought some of that and am really looking forward to trying it. I just have to decide if I want to take it with the small amount of Effexor instead of the SJW while I withdraw ... Decisions, decisions....
> > > >
> > I have taken two pills of the Arctic brand so far. One each on two different days. This only equals 180 mg. So far so good. Today I definitely felt more able to concentrate after taking it. I am no longer worried about tolerating it. I am more worried that it won't do much and will be another dead end. Short half life though? That means withdrawal, doesn't it?
>
> I'm very glad you are having a good initial reaction to it. Russian herbal practise is to use an herb for no more than four months, stop for at least one month, and restart as necessary. That pattern can be continued indefinitely. Withdrawal is seldom a problem with herbs, probably because they have such complex chemistry (hundreds of constituents, taken simultaneously). All I meant by the short half-life remark was that, if an adverse reaction occurs, it ends quickly upon ceasing intake. The adverse herbal reactions are generally self-limiting.Good to know there's no horrible withdrawal with herbs! The flip side of it is that you have to go off of them periodically.
>
> Good luck with the Rhodiola. The gent who turned me on to it had astounding results.> Lar
Thanks. I'm going to take two tablets a day soon because I'm not having any problems with the one. Still encouraging. What brands did the people you knew take? Did the guy who turned you on to Rhodiola (or the others you knew) continue to have success or did the herb lose it's power after a period of years? (I've never had much of a response to anything yet but I'm thinking that it's probably preferable to experiencing that "Flowers for Algernon" phenomenon.)
Please don't feel that you have to get back to me right away. I feel guilty for monopolizing you with so many questions because I know a lot of people are waiting for your responses.
Take care,
KaraS
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:18:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 9, 2004, at 2:17:54
> > "Empty stomach" really means "no other protein/amino acids present", in this case. When you arise in the morning, and reach for a coffee, you can probably get away with taking the DLPA, unless your coffee is a latte. A dribble of milk would be irrelevant, but half a cup would be relevant.
> >
> Trouble is that if I have just coffee, it will wreak havoc with my blood sugar because of hypoglycemia. I start getting really shakey, weak and light-headed. I'd really have to take it before breakfast or coffee.Before protein, is really all you need worry about, in the a.m.
> > Another "red flag" thought is hunger. If I start getting a meal ready, I down my "empty stomach" supps. By the time I'm finished preparing the food.....
>
>
> I'll have to learn to cook more elaborate meals. I've been quite lazy lately but it would certainly work out better if I did more cooking.I do a lot of cooking. I guess I look at food through cook-coloured glasses. The neat thing about cooking is I get to eat better stuff.
> I'll probably forget the tyrosine then. I think the DLPA is probably a better bet for me anyway.(Can't believe I didn't catch the bad spelling of it up above. Where is spell check when you need it?)If meaning is not lost, it's no biggie, eh?
> > Having just arisen, with mush brain, etc., I can't speak with authority. What you describe makes me think of what is called adrenal exhaustion (in the alternative realm of medicine).
> >
> Interesting... I've read a little about it but never really considered it seriously for myself. I think it was one of those things that I thought I should look into more but didn't give it more attention than that. I'll go to the sites you've given me and read up on it more this weekend. It would be nice to have a label for things I'm experiencing and also a better idea of how to "fix" it.Adrenal exhaustion also fits in nicely with the concept of chronic PTSD. It's just a thought-point.
> > Here's the geeky "standard" version:
> > http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/front/740%20Class%20Spring%202003/Gold%20%20Organization%20of%20the%20stress%20system.pdf
> >
> > And here's the alternative reality:
> > http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/stress4-4.html
> >
> > At this point, I would like to thank you for asking these questions. My own self-care is less than optimal, but when someone leads me to reconsider some of the issues related to treating these symptoms, I find myself refocussing on specific concepts and treatments. My own brain doesn't treat me as well as I wish to treat others.
> >
>
> I can't believe YOU are thanking ME! You are a really sweet person.I want to make clear this is a win-win relationship. I gain nothing by leaving you feeling like it is anything else.
> (But glad I could be of some help. I have lots of other questions to ask and I'll force myself to ask them in future postings because I do so love to help others.)
<grin>
About TMG and that liver enzyme:
> > It isn't normally present at high levels in the liver, but it is inducible. Concentration of the enzyme multiplies dramatically, if the raw material is present. It is possible that some people have a genetic defect, and cannot produce this enzyme, but that's unlikely.
>
> I never knew enzymes could be "inducible". I guess I've been thinking of them in terms of being the rate limiting factor (i.e. the reason that some claim taking l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine can't work)That deserves a little commentary. Some people get all excited about enzyme-related interactions of the herb St. John's wort and e.g. birth control pills. SJW induces activity of the enzyme 3A4, the same one that processes the synthetic hormones in birth control pills. As a result, the hormones don't last for 24 hours, and are far less effective. I would hazard a guess that most enzymes are inducible, but that takes time, as it requires interaction with DNA and cellular replication "machinery". When you have constant intake of an enzyme inhibitor, I would hazard a guess that the DNA is induced as your body tries to counteract the inhibiting effect.
Rate-limiting enzyme reactions are really a special case. When you have a series of linked enzyme processes, your body will use the rate of activity of one enzyme to limit the maximum output of the enzyme series. That only happens at saturation concentrations. What that means is the rate-limiting enzyme is available only in limited numbers (it's own concentration limit), *and* the raw material(s) which are processed by that enzyme are at a concentration at or above which the enzyme is at 100% processing capacity. If the rate-limiting enzyme does not have 100% saturation by raw materials (e.g. tyrosine), then increasing tyrosine concentration will increase the rate-limited output of that enzyme, up to the 100% capacity limit, at which it will plateau.
There is another entire issue that is overlooked by the nay-sayers. Neither phenylalanine or tyrosine go only to dopamine/norepinephrine production. For all we know, it is the alternate uses which lead to mood improvement, and perhaps those only become optimized if and only if the neurotranmsitter pathway reaches saturation. Knowing *that* a supplement makes you feel better is quite a bit different than knowing *why* it does (or thinking you know exactly why). Those who say it can't help are guilty of the logical fallacy called petitio principii (begging the question). If and only if you agree with their premise is their conclusion also true; the classic circular argument.
> >
> > > Also, what about taking l-methionine directly? I actually have some of that here.
> >
> > I've use methionine, and it does not do the same thing as TMG. Perhaps the difference is related to decreases in homocysteine. Taking methionine will not reduce homocysteine levels. Or, perhaps the difference has to do with formation of the end-product of the reaction with homocysteine, which yields not only methionine, but also dimethylglycine (DMG), which is used by weightlifters.
> >
> I've also read that some people take DMG directly rather than SAM-e or TMG but from your comments above I can see where it might not be as useful.The SAMe/homocysteine/methionine process is a cycle. For whatever reason, our bodies have evolved in such a way that they depend on recycling "used" methionine, rather than on dietary intake. When that cycle stalls, it always stalls at homocysteine. That is where the help is needed.
Chronically depressed people have much higher incidence of coronary heart disease than do normal people. Homocysteine is an arterial irritant, and may play a direct role in the formation of atherosclerosis, the precursor to artery blockage and heart attack. It has not been proven without doubt, but homocysteine may be part of the etiology of both disorders, the common element between them. Reducing homocysteine is good for your heart. Do it for your heart, and your brain gets a bonus chance at better functioning.
> The situation you described with the body not knowing what to do with the SAM-e reminds me of the situation you described with 5-HTP.It knows what to do with it (SAMe), unfortunately. It makes more homocysteine.
> In the case of 5-HTP, if there is extra serotonin outside of the brain, can't it theoretically harm the heart (like with Phen-Fen)?
That has been raised as an issue, and I once used it as an argument myself, but I have since reconsidered (conditionally). I have seen no medical evidence linking 5-HTP use with heart valve problems, or any other heart or circulatory problems, despite the fact that so many people use it (some of whom surely abuse it).
Notwithstanding the above, I see no benefit arising from systemic increase in 5-HTP concentrations. You want that in the brain (and gut) solely. Tryptophan hydroxylase is the rate-limiting enzyme, and it only occurs in tissues that require serotonin. The decarboxylase that finishes the job is ubiquitous; 5-HTP in neurons is estimated to have a half-life of about one nanosecond. The instant it forms, poof!, it's serotonin.
> (Which also makes me wonder about taking GABA supplements directly - what happens with the extra GABA that doesn't make it through the BBB?)
It has a very short half-life, and no overt adverse effects. The only consideration I have is that it should not be used day after day after day. You don't want to down-regulate your GABA receptor formation because you are hyper-stimulating them.
You know how some people get tolerant of hot pepper taste? They keep having to push up the fire level to get that buzz? It's a tolerance phenomenon. I use hot peppers so seldom, I always get the full buzz, from a tiny dose. Same goes with GABA. Use it every day, and it'll just poop out altogether.
> > > > Just for the record, on recent days (two instances) when I have used NADH and TMG, I am substantially enhanced in functioning the *next* day, and on subsequent days, rather than on the day I dosed.
>
> Do you have any idea why that would be? You're not at all enhanced on the day you take it?Yes, enhanced, but not productively enhanced. I tend to be a little distractable/irritable. Even at those small doses, I think it's just a little high on that first day. As it mellows out, I get much more comfortable, and significantly more productive.
> Very strange when you consider that some people see improvement in an hour or two...
My simplification was unintentionally deceptive.
> > I have anxious reactions. It's a trait. I developed energy and motivation problems. That's a state. Traits you're born with, states you develop.
> >
> > > >
> Interesting way of putting it. I've come to see my lack of energy and motivation as more genetically based and therefore predetermined.I used to work 60-80 weeks as a matter of course. I used to (think I) thrive on deadlines. No longer true for me. I literally had a breakdown. Humpty Dumpty. Ya know?
>
> > > > > I just bought some of that and am really looking forward to trying it. I just have to decide if I want to take it with the small amount of Effexor instead of the SJW while I withdraw ... Decisions, decisions....
> > > > >
> > > I have taken two pills of the Arctic brand so far. One each on two different days. This only equals 180 mg. So far so good. Today I definitely felt more able to concentrate after taking it. I am no longer worried about tolerating it. I am more worried that it won't do much and will be another dead end. Short half life though? That means withdrawal, doesn't it?
> >
> > I'm very glad you are having a good initial reaction to it. Russian herbal practise is to use an herb for no more than four months, stop for at least one month, and restart as necessary. That pattern can be continued indefinitely. Withdrawal is seldom a problem with herbs, probably because they have such complex chemistry (hundreds of constituents, taken simultaneously). All I meant by the short half-life remark was that, if an adverse reaction occurs, it ends quickly upon ceasing intake. The adverse herbal reactions are generally self-limiting.
>
> Good to know there's no horrible withdrawal with herbs! The flip side of it is that you have to go off of them periodically.I believe that is to maintain efficacy, and to forestall any chronic adverse effects. It's just the way herbs tend to be used.
> >
> > Good luck with the Rhodiola. The gent who turned me on to it had astounding results.
>
> > Lar
>
> Thanks. I'm going to take two tablets a day soon because I'm not having any problems with the one. Still encouraging. What brands did the people you knew take?Solgar. I bought a bunch of it (to reduce import costs), and I couldn't use it.
> Did the guy who turned you on to Rhodiola (or the others you knew) continue to have success or did the herb lose it's power after a period of years?
I've lost touch. I should probably see if I can find out.
> (I've never had much of a response to anything yet but I'm thinking that it's probably preferable to experiencing that "Flowers for Algernon" phenomenon.)
I don't know what that is.
> Please don't feel that you have to get back to me right away. I feel guilty for monopolizing you with so many questions because I know a lot of people are waiting for your responses.
I think I'm caught up. I'm waiting for others, methinks.
> Take care,
> KaraSYou too.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:45:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 9, 2004, at 2:17:54
Posted by Stryker88 on July 11, 2004, at 14:33:55
In reply to Re: excellent homocysteine article » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:45:30
what about Ginseng you mentioned alot of supps to use, but you forgot about Ginseng.
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:56:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:18:49
Larry,
I'm going to try to start this thread over because it's getting too long and complicated to follow.Ok, it may be a win-win situation but you are still a very sweet person (unless you've managed to pull the wool over all of our eyes).
"petitio principii (begging the question)" - very impressive. I'll have to try to remember that one.
I agree with your l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine argument against those who don't believe. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.
"Flowers for Algernon" is a book. Here's part of Amazon.com's blurb about it: "a mentally disabled man whose experimental quest for intelligence mirrors that of Algernon, an extraordinary lab mouse. In poignant diary entries, Charlie tells how a brain operation increases his IQ and changes his life. As the experimental procedure takes effect, Charlie's intelligence expands until it surpasses that of the doctors who engineered his metamorphosis. The experiment seems to be a scientific breakthrough of paramount importance-until Algernon begins his sudden, unexpected deterioration." (Of course Charlie's deterioration begins shortly thereafter. It was made into a movie many years ago with Cliff Robertson called "Charlie".)
It's heartbreaking to see him watch himself go downhill and lose his life. So my referring to it was a more emotionally charged way of saying that I don't want to experience poop-out once I've finally found relief.
Regarding breakdowns, yes, I do know. I had one of those too. NOT FUN.
Ok, I'm going to answer my posts here, work on spreadsheets for tomorrow and then read the articles you suggested on adrenal fatigue and homocystein.
Thanks again,
KaraS
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 8:17:13
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:56:32
> Larry,
> I'm going to try to start this thread over because it's getting too long and complicated to follow.Sorry about that. You should see some of the emails I get into.
> Ok, it may be a win-win situation but you are still a very sweet person (unless you've managed to pull the wool over all of our eyes).
Awwww, shucks.
> "petitio principii (begging the question)" - very impressive. I'll have to try to remember that one.Although that's Latin, most logical fallacies trace back to the time of Plato and Socrates. They're well worth looking at. Non sequitur. Ad hominem circumstantis. Once you understand what they are, they really stand out.
Here's a primer:
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
> I agree with your l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine argument against those who don't believe. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.And, upon further research, there is no evidence that tyrosine hydroxylase is saturable. Linear increases in DOPA are seen with increasing tyrosine concentration.
> "Flowers for Algernon" is a book. Here's part of Amazon.com's blurb about it: "a mentally disabled man whose experimental quest for intelligence mirrors that of Algernon, an extraordinary lab mouse. In poignant diary entries, Charlie tells how a brain operation increases his IQ and changes his life. As the experimental procedure takes effect, Charlie's intelligence expands until it surpasses that of the doctors who engineered his metamorphosis. The experiment seems to be a scientific breakthrough of paramount importance-until Algernon begins his sudden, unexpected deterioration." (Of course Charlie's deterioration begins shortly thereafter. It was made into a movie many years ago with Cliff Robertson called "Charlie".)
>
> It's heartbreaking to see him watch himself go downhill and lose his life. So my referring to it was a more emotionally charged way of saying that I don't want to experience poop-out once I've finally found relief.Heartbreaking is perhaps not strong enough a statement.
> Regarding breakdowns, yes, I do know. I had one of those too. NOT FUN.
I'm different now. That took me years to learn about, and to accept. All the king's horses, and all the king's men......
> Ok, I'm going to answer my posts here, work on spreadsheets for tomorrow and then read the articles you suggested on adrenal fatigue and homocystein.
>
> Thanks again,
> KaraSYou're most welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 11:12:02
In reply to Re: excellent homocysteine article, posted by Stryker88 on July 11, 2004, at 14:33:55
> what about Ginseng you mentioned alot of supps to use, but you forgot about Ginseng.
Yes, ginseng and Siberian ginseng are both tonic herbs.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 17:17:36
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:56:32
> "Flowers for Algernon" is a book. Here's part of Amazon.com's blurb about it...
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by KaraS on July 15, 2004, at 16:13:52
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 8:17:13
Larry, I read the holistic article on adrenal fatigue and it raised a million questions. I don't have the time to write the thread now but I just wanted to warn you to stock up on your vitamins and mind enhancing supplements!
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 10:29:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 15, 2004, at 16:13:52
> Larry, I read the holistic article on adrenal fatigue and it raised a million questions. I don't have the time to write the thread now but I just wanted to warn you to stock up on your vitamins and mind enhancing supplements!
>
> KaraThanks for the support...errr...warning.
Lar
Posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 0:59:01
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:56:32
> "Flowers for Algernon" is a book. Here's part of Amazon.com's blurb about it: "a mentally disabled man whose experimental quest for intelligence mirrors that of Algernon, an extraordinary lab mouse. In poignant diary entries, Charlie tells how a brain operation increases his IQ and changes his life. As the experimental procedure takes effect, Charlie's intelligence expands until it surpasses that of the doctors who engineered his metamorphosis. The experiment seems to be a scientific breakthrough of paramount importance-until Algernon begins his sudden, unexpected deterioration." (Of course Charlie's deterioration begins shortly thereafter. It was made into a movie many years ago with Cliff Robertson called "Charlie".)
>
> It's heartbreaking to see him watch himself go downhill and lose his life.Kara,
Sorry to intrude... I read that book over and over as a child. It was such a moving book. I couldn't imagine anything worse than to watch oneself degrade mentally.
Odd how life has it's little twists and turns. At the time, I never dreamed I would live out the experience, so to speak. I went from testing at genius IQ level and always being top of the class, all the way down to struggling to remember my middle name. Although I have improved since that point, I don't know if I will ever again be able to work in the profession I was trained in.
I have often though about Charlie and little Algernon over these past several years...
Simus
Posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 15:50:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 0:59:01
> > "Flowers for Algernon" is a book. Here's part of Amazon.com's blurb about it: "a mentally disabled man whose experimental quest for intelligence mirrors that of Algernon, an extraordinary lab mouse. In poignant diary entries, Charlie tells how a brain operation increases his IQ and changes his life. As the experimental procedure takes effect, Charlie's intelligence expands until it surpasses that of the doctors who engineered his metamorphosis. The experiment seems to be a scientific breakthrough of paramount importance-until Algernon begins his sudden, unexpected deterioration." (Of course Charlie's deterioration begins shortly thereafter. It was made into a movie many years ago with Cliff Robertson called "Charlie".)
> >
> > It's heartbreaking to see him watch himself go downhill and lose his life.
>
> Kara,
>
> Sorry to intrude... I read that book over and over as a child. It was such a moving book. I couldn't imagine anything worse than to watch oneself degrade mentally.
>
> Odd how life has it's little twists and turns. At the time, I never dreamed I would live out the experience, so to speak. I went from testing at genius IQ level and always being top of the class, all the way down to struggling to remember my middle name. Although I have improved since that point, I don't know if I will ever again be able to work in the profession I was trained in.
>
> I have often though about Charlie and little Algernon over these past several years...
>
> Simus
>Simus,
Wow, I don't know what to say to that other than I'm sorry to have touched upon that nerve for you. I'd also like to note that your writings still show your intelligence and I hope you continue to improve.From now on I will think of you also whenever I think of that book.
Kara
Posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 17:02:45
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 15:50:41
> I'm sorry to have touched upon that nerve for you
Kara,
I'm the one that's sorry. I didn't want my post to make you uncomfortable. Actually, I was pleasantly surprised to find another fan of "Flowers for Algernon". And I am doing much better now. Maybe I won't ever be the person I was... but then maybe I will be a better person in other ways for having been to he** and back. It certainly was a character builder (and a pride crusher).
God bless,
Simus
Posted by KaraS on July 18, 2004, at 16:21:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 17:02:45
> > I'm sorry to have touched upon that nerve for you
>
> Kara,
>
> I'm the one that's sorry. I didn't want my post to make you uncomfortable. Actually, I was pleasantly surprised to find another fan of "Flowers for Algernon". And I am doing much better now. Maybe I won't ever be the person I was... but then maybe I will be a better person in other ways for having been to he** and back. It certainly was a character builder (and a pride crusher).
>
> God bless,
>
> Simus
Simus,
Sometimes the best lessons are the most painful ones...
Be well,
K
Posted by KaraS on July 24, 2004, at 22:17:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 8, 2004, at 9:32:30
Hi Lar,
It's time to at least start on some of my questions for you since you raised the issue of adrenal fatigue. It got me to thinking about a lot of my symptoms and wondering now if they're adrenal exhaustion, a manifestation of atypical depression or some combination of both. How does one tell the difference? I mentioned to you about how I start the day so slowly and how I don't usually come alive or feel normal until late in the afternoon. I've been thinking that my depression is atypical because of the lethargy but I recently read that atypicals tend to do better in the morning and regress as the day goes on. If that's correct, then that might be a clue for me. OTOH, few people are a perfect clear cut case for any of the classifcations of depression. In fact, when I read the descriptions I inevitably find aspects of major depression, melancholia and dysthmia that relate to me. (I'm a lot of fun to hang out with!)
But getting back to the adrenal fatigue... I've always been a night owl. How do I know that my condition is not just diurnal variation? Wouldn't too much MAO produce the same symptoms? If I don't sleep much, I come alive much sooner in the day. I'm not as groggy and brain dead. I have more energy and I'm not nearly as depressed. Unfortunately, I can't do that very often as I end up feeling sick a day or two later. Hmmm... that might argue for both too much MAO and adrenal fatigue, couldn't it?
There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and I was diagnosed with CFS almost 20 years ago. My CFS is not what most people think of when they think of that syndrome. There are so many conditions and viruses that get misdiagnosed or labeled as CFS because they just don't know what the hell they really are. One day when I was incredibly worn out, I got a horrible flu that included stomach symptoms, nausea, swollen glands, sore throat etc. It got better gradually and then a few days later I'd get it again. This went on for years. There's no doubt in my mind that it's viral. (I've known of 3 other people with exactly the same symptoms.) As time went on, the "attacks" started to occur less frequently. I would even go months without it. Now, it only seems to happen if I get really run down. I'm sorry to run on so but I think it might help if you knew what some of the other factors involved are.
Some other issues of mine that might also be important are that I've had a lot of allergy problems in the last few years including cholinergic urticaria when I exercise (which hasn't been that often). The last time few times I've taken a walk, I feel good at the time but then an hour or two later I'm exhausted and have to sleep. I'm menopausal as well.
I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well. Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am. (The last nurse practitioner I saw was alarmed that I was having menopausal symptoms until told of my age so I think it's legit.) My sense of humor is still intact. All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
At any rate, I know that it's critical for me now to diagnose this correctly because otherwise treatment of the wrong condition could make things so much worse. I had been planning on trying everything noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic until I found relief. However, if adrenal fatigue is a major factor here then I'd, in effect, be whipping a dead horse (or a very sick one), wouldn't I? (metaphor not simile, right?)
What I'd like to do right now is go to a good holistic Dr. and get a lot of testing done. I know of 2 near me who fit the bill but I can't afford to see them right now.
Thanks for listening and considering all of this, Dr. Hoover. Let me know your thoughts when you get a chance.
Gratefully,
Kara
Posted by simus on July 25, 2004, at 0:44:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 24, 2004, at 22:17:37
Hi Kara,
I hope you don't mind if I butt in again. It's just that I opened your post, and the words "adrenal fatigue" caught my eye. I had to read on. You could have been describing me! Well, there are a few differences, but let me tell the similarities:
> I mentioned to you about how I start the day so slowly and how I don't usually come alive or feel normal until late in the afternoon.
Mornings are not my friend. I start to feel better as the day progresses, and then around 9:00 at night I am at my best, physically and mentally. Then I can go strong well into the night. It's hard to live that way in a "daytime" world, though. I have tried to adjust my sleeping times, but my best sleep is always after 5:00AMish.
> I've always been a night owl.
I have too. I remember when I was younger and worked so hard that I would be exhausted (but not sleepy) at the end of the day. Then I would go to bed around 10:00PM and lay there sleepless and watch the clock roll around to 11:00, 12:00, 1:00... day after day after week after month after year. When I had to get up at 6:00AM to get ready for work, I would be absolutely exhausted. It was sooooo frustrating. But now, on sick leave, it really doesn't matter that much.
> If I don't sleep much, I come alive much sooner in the day. I'm not as groggy and brain dead. I have more energy and I'm not nearly as depressed. Unfortunately, I can't do that very often as I end up feeling sick a day or two later.
Yep, yep, yep, and yep.
> I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.That comes and goes for me, depending on my sugar intake.
> I was diagnosed with CFS almost 20 years ago. One day when I was incredibly worn out, I got a horrible flu that included stomach symptoms, nausea, swollen glands, sore throat etc. It got better gradually and then a few days later I'd get it again. This went on for years. There's no doubt in my mind that it's viral. (I've known of 3 other people with exactly the same symptoms.) As time went on, the "attacks" started to occur less frequently. I would even go months without it. Now, it only seems to happen if I get really run down.
I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
One difference is that I don't have thyroid problems.
> Some other issues of mine that might also be important are that I've had a lot of allergy problemsAbsolutely - the more worn out I get, the worse the allergies.
> cholinergic urticaria
I had chronic hives - every day for over two years. It was triggered by a time of very high stress. At the beginning, I was taking 4 Benadryl at a time, several times a day to keep my sanity because of the intense itching. But since half that dose is taken as a sleep aid, you can imagine what my life was like. My doctor wanted to try to "shock" my system with a heavy dose of steroids, but that didn't go well. Then he prescribed another antidepressant, thinking that it was just from nerves. That didn't go well either, so I just decided to live with it. Fortunately, since treating the adrenal fatigue, the hives diminished. Now I get only a few maybe once or twice a week, and they just quickly go away.
One other disturbing thing I experienced was severe edema in my legs. It was to the point that my lower legs were bright red and hot and very, very painful. I even had trouble bending my legs very far at the knee because of the swelling. That has diminished too since I started treating the adrenal fatigue. (My family doctor prescribed "walking" more, which didn't help.)
> I'm menopausal as well.
I'm only 43, but I have been showing signs of starting menopause for about 6 months now.
> I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well. Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am.
Hey! Since I have all the same symptoms, I want the "present well" too!!! But sadly, after years of Paxil and then double-dosing on Benadryl all day long for two years on top of that, I now have a LOT of weight to lose.
>My sense of humor is still intact.
That is how I have survived all of this.
>All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
I know this all-too-well. I even thought of myself as lazy. Looking back now, I see myself as having been a very sick person. But the energy level is coming up, as is the motivation, thanks to a med change and adrenal fatigue supplements.
> At any rate, I know that it's critical for me now to diagnose this correctly because otherwise treatment of the wrong condition could make things so much worse. I had been planning on trying everything noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic until I found relief. However, if adrenal fatigue is a major factor here then I'd, in effect, be whipping a dead horse (or a very sick one), wouldn't I? (metaphor not simile, right?)
Can I recommend a very good book, "Adrenal Fatigue The 21st Century Stress Syndrome" by Dr. James L. Wilson? It has been a tremendous help to me.Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
God bless,
Simus
Posted by sb417 on July 25, 2004, at 1:01:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 24, 2004, at 22:17:37
Hi Kara,
I like reading your posts. You have a lot to say. Do you not have medical benefits right now? Is there any way you could see/afford an endocrinologist now? I've had several endocrinology evaluations. There are standard workups that endocrinologists do to test for adrenal hypofunction and adrenal hyperfunction. By the way, how is your thyroid now? Do you continue to monitor your thyroid function? If there's any way you can get the money together so that you can be examined by an M.D., I think that would be the best course of action.
I hope you feel better soon.
sb
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 2:52:18
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by simus on July 25, 2004, at 0:44:47
> Hi Kara,
>
> I hope you don't mind if I butt in again. It's just that I opened your post, and the words "adrenal fatigue" caught my eye. I had to read on. You could have been describing me! Well, there are a few differences, but let me tell the similarities:
Hi Simus,From your name, I pictured you as a male. We have so much in common that I was going to ask you to marry me ... that is until I read that you're also experiencing menopausal symptoms!
I don't mind at all if you share your story. It's very comforting to know that someone else is experiencing some of these same things. Misery does love company. (I've written more below interspersed with your comments.)
>
> > I mentioned to you about how I start the day so slowly and how I don't usually come alive or feel normal until late in the afternoon.
>
> Mornings are not my friend. I start to feel better as the day progresses, and then around 9:00 at night I am at my best, physically and mentally. Then I can go strong well into the night. It's hard to live that way in a "daytime" world, though. I have tried to adjust my sleeping times, but my best sleep is always after 5:00AMish.
>I've always felt oppressed by the morning people of the world. When I was a lot younger, I used to think that everyone was like me and hated getting up early. I remember wondering why they didn't offer those standardized tests for college or graduate school at a time when people could actually do some thinking. I figured it was part of the intentional torture of the whole thing. It was such a shock to find people who preferred the early morning hours - people who would choose to work a 7:00 AM - 3:00 pm shift when they had other options. Later on in years I would hear people talk about doing something at work at 8:00 am while they were "fresh". I couldn't believe it.
> > I've always been a night owl.
>
> I have too. I remember when I was younger and worked so hard that I would be exhausted (but not sleepy) at the end of the day. Then I would go to bed around 10:00PM and lay there sleepless and watch the clock roll around to 11:00, 12:00, 1:00... day after day after week after month after year. When I had to get up at 6:00AM to get ready for work, I would be absolutely exhausted. It was sooooo frustrating. But now, on sick leave, it really doesn't matter that much.
>Definitely. I would be like a zombie all week and then Saturday I would sleep until at least noon. I'd spend the weekend recovering from the work week and then I'd start the whole thing all over again on Monday.
Do you mind if I ask what you are on sick leave for? Is it related to the adrenal fatigue and urticaria? If you'd prefer not to talk about it, I certainly understand.
> > If I don't sleep much, I come alive much sooner in the day. I'm not as groggy and brain dead. I have more energy and I'm not nearly as depressed. Unfortunately, I can't do that very often as I end up feeling sick a day or two later.
>
> Yep, yep, yep, and yep.While I'm reading about your situation and keeping mine in mind, I'm starting to get more of the big picture here. I'm becoming more convinced that I do have adrenal fatigue and I'm seeing more of the interrelationship among the various illnesses. The constant stress on my body of working the 8-5 and not sleeping, many years of depression, lots of other major stress in my life, along with the candidiasis all contributed to my immune system dysfunction. The immune dysfunction manifested in the thyroid condition (Hashimotos is an autoimmune condition), the allergy problems and the urticaria. The CFS fits in to that as well - I was susceptible to it because of my immune dysfunction and the CFS then became an additional stressor on my body.
>
> > I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
>
> That comes and goes for me, depending on my sugar intake.
>
> > I was diagnosed with CFS almost 20 years ago. One day when I was incredibly worn out, I got a horrible flu that included stomach symptoms, nausea, swollen glands, sore throat etc. It got better gradually and then a few days later I'd get it again. This went on for years. There's no doubt in my mind that it's viral. (I've known of 3 other people with exactly the same symptoms.) As time went on, the "attacks" started to occur less frequently. I would even go months without it. Now, it only seems to happen if I get really run down.
>
> I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
>
> One difference is that I don't have thyroid problems.Thank goodness for that.
>
> > Some other issues of mine that might also be important are that I've had a lot of allergy problems
>
> Absolutely - the more worn out I get, the worse the allergies.
>
> > cholinergic urticaria
>
> I had chronic hives - every day for over two years. It was triggered by a time of very high stress. At the beginning, I was taking 4 Benadryl at a time, several times a day to keep my sanity because of the intense itching. But since half that dose is taken as a sleep aid, you can imagine what my life was like. My doctor wanted to try to "shock" my system with a heavy dose of steroids, but that didn't go well. Then he prescribed another antidepressant, thinking that it was just from nerves. That didn't go well either, so I just decided to live with it. Fortunately, since treating the adrenal fatigue, the hives diminished. Now I get only a few maybe once or twice a week, and they just quickly go away.
>Wow. That's horrible and here I am complaining about itching when I exercise which can be prevented by taking a Zyrtec!
> One other disturbing thing I experienced was severe edema in my legs. It was to the point that my lower legs were bright red and hot and very, very painful. I even had trouble bending my legs very far at the knee because of the swelling. That has diminished too since I started treating the adrenal fatigue. (My family doctor prescribed "walking" more, which didn't help.)
That's very strange. Is that a result of the adrenal fatigue or do you know why you got that?>
> > I'm menopausal as well.
>
> I'm only 43, but I have been showing signs of starting menopause for about 6 months now.
>Unfortunately it does tend to start earlier than we think it's going to. There are a lot of years of progressive symptoms. It's not nearly as quick as I thought it would be.
> > I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well. Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am.
>
> Hey! Since I have all the same symptoms, I want the "present well" too!!! But sadly, after years of Paxil and then double-dosing on Benadryl all day long for two years on top of that, I now have a LOT of weight to lose.After I posted that paragraph, I was sorry that I sent it. I thought that it might have come off as bragging. My intention, however, was to show that no one understands what I'm going through because they look at me and I can appear normal - happy, healthy, younger and in shape - when the truth is the complete opposite. I often hear from my family and friends that "you have so much going for you" and they're thinking (and sometimes saying) "why can't you get your act together and make a success out of yourself"? Then I really feel like a total loser. Well, maybe I do have a lot going for me but it's not of much use if I can't drag my butt out of bed in the morning and I have so little energy and motivation!!
To get back to your comment about the weight you want to lose. I recently dropped about 15-20 pounds once I stopped taking a small amount of a tricyclic antidepressant in order to sleep at night. Maybe once you're completely off of the meds that were contributing to the weight gain, you'll find it easier to lose it. Having a lot of extra weight on you can be a huge depressant in and of itself - but then I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.
>
> >My sense of humor is still intact.
>
> That is how I have survived all of this.
>
> >All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
>
> I know this all-too-well. I even thought of myself as lazy. Looking back now, I see myself as having been a very sick person. But the energy level is coming up, as is the motivation, thanks to a med change and adrenal fatigue supplements.
>What did you change your medication to instead of Paxil and is it helping? What are the supplements you are taking for adrenal fatigue?
> > At any rate, I know that it's critical for me now to diagnose this correctly because otherwise treatment of the wrong condition could make things so much worse. I had been planning on trying everything noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic until I found relief. However, if adrenal fatigue is a major factor here then I'd, in effect, be whipping a dead horse (or a very sick one), wouldn't I? (metaphor not simile, right?)
>
> Can I recommend a very good book, "Adrenal Fatigue The 21st Century Stress Syndrome" by Dr. James L. Wilson? It has been a tremendous help to me.
>I don't know where I've seen the title of that book but I had written it down recently as something to look into. Now I'll DEFINITELY check it out - sooner rather than later!
> Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
>Don't hesitate to interrupt again! Thanks for your input.
- Kara
> God bless,
>
> Simus
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 3:02:28
In reply to KaraS, I have a question . . ., posted by sb417 on July 25, 2004, at 1:01:40
> Hi Kara,
>
> I like reading your posts. You have a lot to say. Do you not have medical benefits right now? Is there any way you could see/afford an endocrinologist now? I've had several endocrinology evaluations. There are standard workups that endocrinologists do to test for adrenal hypofunction and adrenal hyperfunction. By the way, how is your thyroid now? Do you continue to monitor your thyroid function? If there's any way you can get the money together so that you can be examined by an M.D., I think that would be the best course of action.
>
> I hope you feel better soon.
>
> sbThank you. I don't have medical benefits now. It's quite a "Catch 22" situation because I need the job to get the benefits but I need to have the benefits now in order to get well and get the job. My financial situation is getting pretty bad now so I'm hoping that will scare me into being more motivated. Once I get any kind of a job with benefits then I will definitely seek medical attention. It has been a little while since I've had my thryoid levels tested. It feels like they're at the same level but I really do need to have tests done to be sure of that. An endocrinologist and adrenal function tests definitely sound like a good idea as well.
Thanks for your input and concern.
- Kara
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 3:06:35
In reply to KaraS, I have a question . . ., posted by sb417 on July 25, 2004, at 1:01:40
I just realized that you're the same person who gave me the great tip on the Anthelios sunscreen. Thanks for all of your help!
Posted by simus on July 25, 2004, at 9:57:23
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 2:52:18
> Hi Simus,
>
> From your name, I pictured you as a male. We have so much in common that I was going to ask you to marry me ... that is until I read that you're also experiencing menopausal symptoms!Hey, if my husband ever gets tired of me and takes off, I will let you know! We could move to Massachussettes. LOL But after 20 years, he is pretty much immune to me now. Or should I say numb???
> I've always felt oppressed by the morning people of the world. When I was a lot younger, I used to think that everyone was like me and hated getting up early. I remember wondering why they didn't offer those standardized tests for college or graduate school at a time when people could actually do some thinking. I figured it was part of the intentional torture of the whole thing.I agree completely. As a teenager I had a Garfield poster on my wall that said, "If God had wanted people to see the sun rise, He would have scheduled it later in the day."
> It was such a shock to find people who preferred the early morning hours - people who would choose to work a 7:00 AM - 3:00 pm shift when they had other options.
Hey, I married one! What a schedule we keep! He actually likes going to bed at 8:00PM and leaving for work at 4:00AM. That is just about the time I am starting to sleep well. I joke with him saying that God is keeping me nights because I am a snorer and he needs to get some sleep. When we first got married, I would get SO mad at him for being able to lay down and fall asleep within literally seconds of his head hitting the pillow. Well, I wasn't really mad at him. It was just out of frustration because of my own struggles with sleep for years before that. And I was only 22 at the time.
> Later on in years I would hear people talk about doing something at work at 8:00 am while they were "fresh". I couldn't believe it.
These are the people who always give the advise, "Just go to bed earlier!" Gee, I never would have been able to think of that on my own. Duhhhh
> I would be like a zombie all week and then Saturday I would sleep until at least noon. I'd spend the weekend recovering from the work week and then I'd start the whole thing all over again on Monday.Exactly my experience. After years of this, I developed a dread of Monday.
> Do you mind if I ask what you are on sick leave for? Is it related to the adrenal fatigue and urticaria? If you'd prefer not to talk about it, I certainly understand.No problem. It is kind of a long story, but here goes... I was undergoing some severe emotional stress from my youngest daughter being emotionally abused by her teacher. That continued for some time (I pulled her out quickly, but then we had to deal with the principal, the school board, etc. It was a mess.), and into last fall. I was on Effexor at that time (ADs for about 8 years prior). I was just hanging on emotionally, and I thought it was from the meds just not working anymore. I didn't think about the problem being the stress itself. So my doctor changed me to Lexapro. I went through the withdrawal from the Effexor and the typical side effects of starting a new AD. That whole thing went VERY badly. Then I found out the Lexapro wasn't working at all for me. I went downhill rapidly. But with SSRIs, you have to wait a couple of months to see if they are going to be effective. Well, after the two months, the answer was NO, IT'S NOT WORKING! Not only that, my doctor put me on Seroquel as a sleep aid. It turned me into a zombie, so I stopped after about 3-4 days, but it took a couple of weeks to recover from the effects of that. Also, for some unknown reason, my doctor switched me from regular Xanax (for sleep) to the timed release form. That made me even more tired during the day and sleep became even more elusive. By this time, I pretty much slept all day and shook most of the night. Oh, and I became addicted to the "all-day" Xanax, which I broke on my own and went back to a low dose of the regular Xanax just at night for sleep. So my doctor took me off of Lexapro cold turkey and put me on Wellbutrin. That shocked my system, and made me complete sleepless and borderline psychotic for a few days. This added physical stress was just too much for my body. That is when my legs "blew up like balloons", among other things. Anyway, during this whole thing I had taken so much time off of work, and when I was at work I found myself ineffective at best. So my doctor advised me to take an indefinite sick leave. I did, and they understandably replaced me soon after. But it was a good thing. I am now doing well on the Wellbutrin/Xanax combo, and I have had time to discover/research/treat the adrenal fatigue issue. I am not where I want to be, but life is very livable again. =)
> While I'm reading about your situation and keeping mine in mind, I'm starting to get more of the big picture here. I'm becoming more convinced that I do have adrenal fatigue and I'm seeing more of the interrelationship among the various illnesses. The constant stress on my body of working the 8-5 and not sleeping, many years of depression, lots of other major stress in my life, along with the candidiasis all contributed to my immune system dysfunction. The immune dysfunction manifested in the thyroid condition (Hashimotos is an autoimmune condition), the allergy problems and the urticaria. The CFS fits in to that as well - I was susceptible to it because of my immune dysfunction and the CFS then became an additional stressor on my body.
I think you will find the book very helpful. It is very thourough yet very readable.
> > One other disturbing thing I experienced was severe edema in my legs. It was to the point that my lower legs were bright red and hot and very, very painful. I even had trouble bending my legs very far at the knee because of the swelling. That has diminished too since I started treating the adrenal fatigue. (My family doctor prescribed "walking" more, which didn't help.)
>
> That's very strange. Is that a result of the adrenal fatigue or do you know why you got that?
>
Yep, adrenal fatigue. It took a LOT of research to figure that one out, because my doctor was no help.> > > I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well. Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am.
> >
> > Hey! Since I have all the same symptoms, I want the "present well" too!!! But sadly, after years of Paxil and then double-dosing on Benadryl all day long for two years on top of that, I now have a LOT of weight to lose.
>
> After I posted that paragraph, I was sorry that I sent it. I thought that it might have come off as bragging. My intention, however, was to show that no one understands what I'm going through because they look at me and I can appear normal - happy, healthy, younger and in shape - when the truth is the complete opposite. I often hear from my family and friends that "you have so much going for you" and they're thinking (and sometimes saying) "why can't you get your act together and make a success out of yourself"? Then I really feel like a total loser. Well, maybe I do have a lot going for me but it's not of much use if I can't drag my butt out of bed in the morning and I have so little energy and motivation!!I understood you completely. I was just joking. I had the adrenal fatigue well before all of the additional weight. I had a great job (engineer), a great husband, two wonderful children, a nice house, etc., but life was so oppressively hard for me because I was always exhausted. I had many comments like, "What is wrong with you? You have everything going for you. What's your problem? Snap out of it." They were convinced that I could just "think happy thoughts" and it would all be instantly better.
> To get back to your comment about the weight you want to lose. I recently dropped about 15-20 pounds once I stopped taking a small amount of a tricyclic antidepressant in order to sleep at night. Maybe once you're completely off of the meds that were contributing to the weight gain, you'll find it easier to lose it. Having a lot of extra weight on you can be a huge depressant in and of itself - but then I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.
I am no longer gaining weight, but I was so sick and I am just now starting to feel strong enough to try losing, There is hope...
> What did you change your medication to instead of Paxil and is it helping? What are the supplements you are taking for adrenal fatigue?
I am on 150mg Wellbutrin, and 1mg Xanax for sleep. There is quite a list of supplements that help, but vitamin C is at the top of the list. I take a good multiple, vitamin C and quercetin, B3, B5, B6, B12, calcium/magnesium/zinc, borage oil, and ginseng, ginger, ginko and green teas. There are more supplements that I take, but those are the main ones. Dietary changes such as avoiding sugar and caffeine, as well as lifestyle changes are very important too. It is all covered in the book.
Good luck and God bless,
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 10:06:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 24, 2004, at 22:17:37
> Hi Lar,
>
> It's time to at least start on some of my questions for you since you raised the issue of adrenal fatigue. It got me to thinking about a lot of my symptoms and wondering now if they're adrenal exhaustion, a manifestation of atypical depression or some combination of both. How does one tell the difference?If reading about both syndromes came with that little light bulb, then my intuition is that both are valid representations of your difficulties. One differentiates, I suppose, by trying the recommended treatments for each.
The concepts themselves are theoretical. The rationale for treatment is theoretical. The treatments are empirical. A witchdoctor treating a patient for spirit possession by exposing the subject to the spiritual vibration of a plant might yet be providing a dose of an active chemical. It may be a collective conceit to think we've moved much beyond the witchdoctor himself.
> I mentioned to you about how I start the day so slowly and how I don't usually come alive or feel normal until late in the afternoon. I've been thinking that my depression is atypical because of the lethargy but I recently read that atypicals tend to do better in the morning and regress as the day goes on. If that's correct, then that might be a clue for me.
There is an inverse of the atypical trend, it has a name, but I can't think of it. In any case, current thinking is that "morning best = atypical" is not valid. http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1061200e.html
The key symptoms of atypical seem to be hypersomnia and hyperphagia. Oversleeping and overeating.
> OTOH, few people are a perfect clear cut case for any of the classifcations of depression. In fact, when I read the descriptions I inevitably find aspects of major depression, melancholia and dysthmia that relate to me. (I'm a lot of fun to hang out with!)
Mood reactivity is an element of atypical depression. You can still get happy about a pleasant experience. It's the crushing fatigue that limits the response.
> But getting back to the adrenal fatigue... I've always been a night owl. How do I know that my condition is not just diurnal variation? Wouldn't too much MAO produce the same symptoms?
So might mitochondrial dysfunction. The focus needs to be on interventions, ultimately. What to do? If excess MAO is a thought, then a trial of an MAOI makes sense. Etc. Validation of a model may never occur, though.
> If I don't sleep much, I come alive much sooner in the day. I'm not as groggy and brain dead. I have more energy and I'm not nearly as depressed. Unfortunately, I can't do that very often as I end up feeling sick a day or two later. Hmmm... that might argue for both too much MAO and adrenal fatigue, couldn't it?
Sleep deprivation is a valid treatment for atypical depression. I think SAD, too. Disturbances in the diurnal rhythm are probably best addressed with light therapy, as used for Seasonal Affective Disorder. Hypersomnia precludes the pineal gland from receiving proper diurnal synchronizing stimuli (e.g. morning light). Once out of synchrony, hypersomnia can lock in. Do you have any seasonality to your mood/energy?
> There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
Candidiasis is a controversial diagnosis. However, controversy or not, restoration of normalized intestinal fauna and flora can make a big difference. Probiotics, particularly those with the greatest diversity of species, are sometimes very useful.
> I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis
Geez. We don't understand that one very well at all.
> and I was diagnosed with CFS almost 20 years ago. My CFS is not what most people think of when they think of that syndrome. There are so many conditions and viruses that get misdiagnosed or labeled as CFS because they just don't know what the hell they really are.
There is no specific virus that necessarily triggers CFS, but I do lean towards a viral etiology.
> One day when I was incredibly worn out, I got a horrible flu that included stomach symptoms, nausea, swollen glands, sore throat etc. It got better gradually and then a few days later I'd get it again. This went on for years. There's no doubt in my mind that it's viral. (I've known of 3 other people with exactly the same symptoms.) As time went on, the "attacks" started to occur less frequently. I would even go months without it. Now, it only seems to happen if I get really run down. I'm sorry to run on so but I think it might help if you knew what some of the other factors involved are.
Many viral infections are lifelong. Herpes zoster (chicken pox) emerges decades later as shingles.
Have you considered the possibility that you might be infected by a non-viral, non-bacterial agent? Mycoplasma, (oh, my brain is shutting down)...there are other possible infective agents.
> Some other issues of mine that might also be important are that I've had a lot of allergy problems in the last few years including cholinergic urticaria when I exercise (which hasn't been that often). The last time few times I've taken a walk, I feel good at the time but then an hour or two later I'm exhausted and have to sleep. I'm menopausal as well.
Okay, I can't give you personal experience on the menopause. Andropause, yes, but not menopause.
I've had life-long inhalant allergies, and I often require steroids just to breathe. Last year, I did a trial of NADH (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide) for fatigue, and my allergies and asthma disappeared. Not reduced. Absent. Also, the anti-histaminic effects of niacinamide are well-known. I'm thinking there might be a connection to B3 metabolism. What do you think?
You see why I love questions so? Not only am I just the most geekiest of geeks when it comes to questions (the world is so fascinating, I sometimes forget to eat for whole days while I research something), but I get distracted, and forget all about stuff like what works for me and that I need to buy some and I need to remember to take it and all of that. Absent-minded professor is not apt. Distracted professor. That's the label.
> I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well.Oh, honey, you don't wanna hear my list. ;-) And presenting well.....I have great facility with language (I'm a powerful speaker), and my geek-brain is a core trait. I've had doctors refuse to accept that I was anything but a malingerer.
> Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am. (The last nurse practitioner I saw was alarmed that I was having menopausal symptoms until told of my age so I think it's legit.)
That's a pretty good clue.
> My sense of humor is still intact.
Geez, without that, where would we be?
> All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
Oh, I know. I know.
> At any rate, I know that it's critical for me now to diagnose this correctly because otherwise treatment of the wrong condition could make things so much worse.
I'm not so sure of that, if you choose wisely. The diagnoses arise from symptoms and their treatments. Diagnoses are patterns linking the two. What modern medicine sometimes forgets, IMHO, is that diagnosis is nothing more than a memnonic for the link between symptom and treatment. Many doctors treat from diagnosis, once that decision is made, rather than from presenting symptom(s).
> I had been planning on trying everything noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic until I found relief. However, if adrenal fatigue is a major factor here then I'd, in effect, be whipping a dead horse (or a very sick one), wouldn't I? (metaphor not simile, right?)
I'll answer the second question first. Yes. Metaphor is symbolic. Simile is comparative.
Notice how I built in my cognitive escape route,
above? "not...if you choose wisely"Treatment for adrenal fatigue is two-fold. One, is to let the adrenals rest. They're already whipped. Two, is to address the dysregulated signal that is whipping the adrenals. In other words, the problem isn't in the adrenals to begin with.
Yes, adding dopaminergic and noradrenergic stimuli would be counterproductive. Your focus ought to be more on mitochondrial activation. That's more like Dr. Pall.
> What I'd like to do right now is go to a good holistic Dr. and get a lot of testing done. I know of 2 near me who fit the bill but I can't afford to see them right now.If I win the lottery, I'll send you.
> Thanks for listening and considering all of this, Dr. Hoover.You're too kind.
> Let me know your thoughts when you get a chance.
Try and shut me up. ;-)
> Gratefully,
> KaraYou're welcome,
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 10:09:05
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by simus on July 25, 2004, at 0:44:47
> I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
The Epstein-Barr virus is probably totally underestimated by current medical wisdom. No other virus is more closely linked to CFS.
> Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
>
> God bless,
>
> SimusAaaackkk! I'm interrupting, not you.
Lar
Posted by SLS on July 25, 2004, at 12:40:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 10:06:06
Hi Larry.
> There is an inverse of the atypical trend, it has a name, but I can't think of it. In any case, current thinking is that "morning best = atypical" is not valid. http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1061200e.html
I'm not sure how valid that one study is, but it is still worth noting that it was paraphrased as saying that it "found no clear relationship between mood worsening in the evening and other atypical symptoms". In other words, although it did not find a worsening of symptoms in the evening, it said nothing about a lack of worsening in the morning, which I think is really the most important aspect of diurnal variation to differentiate typical from atypical unipolar depression.
- Scott
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