![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 20:08:51
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
just one more point...
no, I think they way the business world may work is that you get a license to produce supplements, etc. for vetinary(animal use) purposes only..so they have no reason or license to bring in a "human" brand. It does not however automatically imply inferiority..just that one should check to see if it is suitable ie. identical to what would be sold to humans and as pure..and you can't expect the company to help with this much as they are not licensed to sell for human consumption.The only things I think, that are really safe are those with a long history of safe use. (unfortunately this doesn't always suit the pharmaceutical industry)
The serotonin drugs may be just as dangerous as the tryptophans etc .. ...serotonin syndrome?but if you do need them, you have to decide, perhaps together with a doc? And OK it with your doc know if you do decide to start taking any of these, especially if already taking other drugs...
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 19:43:31
> actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.
Actually warm milk is VERY good advice..high in serotonin,
Good serontonin foods include.. like banana, nuts, avocado, yogurt, cheese, turkey, milk (warmed )
So a glass of warm milk before bed that small children are often given does some good..and is a safe way to get serotonin, unless a strong need is really indicated (as admittedly applies to some folk here. )Jan
Posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 7:27:55
In reply to Suggest you try a glass of warm milk! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
i guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then. They are the basic form of food and are the most harmless supplements out there.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:12:19
In reply to Re: Suggest you try a glass of warm milk!, posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 7:27:55
> i guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel put down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:17:21
In reply to Suggest you try a glass of warm milk! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
> > actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
>
> Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.In what way? Could you be more specific? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by JLx on September 25, 2003, at 19:40:05
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
Tryptophan is illegal to sell as a human supplement in the U.S. -- or so I had understood. Perhaps it's changed just recently, or there is some loophole so that this site can offer it here: (to order) http://www.healthrecovery.com/ (info) http://www.healthrecovery.com/PageMill_Product_Files/Tryptophan.html
That site is from an addiction treatment center of the woman, Joan Mathews Larson, who wrote "Depression Free Naturally" which I've read and would recomend, even though it is a few years old now. The last time I checked that site, a few months ago, she wasn't selling tryptophan herself but was referring people to this site: (order) http://www.biochemicals.com/orderonline.php3 (info)http://www.biochemicals.com/productinfo.php3?id=22 There, tryptophan is labeled for "veterinary use only" to get around the law presumably, as the information sheet is clearly about humans, not pets.
If the equine site is a comparable product, it's clearly a LOT cheaper. What I wondered, is since it says it's 90% pure -- what's in the other 10%?
Tryptophan is also sold as a drug in Canada, btw, called Tryptan -- available online through pharmacies, some of which may or may not require a prescription. It's available through compounding pharmacies in the U.S. too -- if you can find a doc to prescribe it.
Here's a page about that, by a woman who treated her own depression with natural health remedies: http://depressionvitamins.com/tryptophan/ There's lots of good info on that site.
I'm still not clear whether tryptophan or 5-HTP is supposed to be best. Michael Murray -- who is a naturopathic doctor I usually respect -- says 5-HTP is better. http://www.doctormurray.com/5htp/tryptophan.htm I'm reading his book now, "5-HTP: The Natural Way to Boost Serotonin and Overcome Depression, Obesity, and Insomnia
5-HTP". Here are the FAQs from his site: http://www.doctormurray.com/B5htpFAQ.htmI had all this stuff already bookmarked. :)
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
Posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous, posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:17:21
> Bob
I guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then. They are the basic form of food and are the most harmless supplements out there.
Hi Dr Bob,
Matth did not offend me and I readily admit, I have a very limited knowledge of amino acids, definitely way more than 99% I do not know!
I did get frustrated and should not have become so sarcastic with Matth...which is why I wanted to walk away. I apologise for that.> > > actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
> >
> > Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.
>
> In what way? Could you be more specific? Thanks,
>I personally had quite an effect from tyrosine at 2000mg, one I doubt I could ever produce from eating copious amounts of any food.
The effect is no doubt magnified as I am on thyroid meds which has a MAOI effect from what I have read from links provided here.
I've found between 500mg to 1000mg will probably be very helpful though for me though.
If I were to follow Matth, and treat tyrosine as perhaps a food and have no concern as to amounts I swallowed I could have serious side effects.... pulse and blood pressure raised possibly to dangerous levels for startersAlso I based the statement on the posts just above to Matth where I provided links to some doubts about the safety of taking at least overhigh doses of tryptophan.
This is not to say that some people will not get great benefit from tryptophan.
To make a statement saying that anything which is, I would think, only a part of a food and not a complete food, can be used as safely as a food is, IMO dangerous.
As I admit, I am no expert..but think of aspirin. One cannot take unlimited quantities of it, even though it is in foods such as an apple.
I guess my concern is much deeper and wider than this though and is probably what led me to react as I did. I'll try to continue in admin.
Thanks, Jan
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 21:00:25
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous » Dr. Bob, posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
Posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 21:13:55
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous » Dr. Bob, posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
sorry if caused hard feelings, didnt mean too
Posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous, posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 21:13:55
> sorry if caused hard feelings, didnt mean too
Matth,
Please accept my apology. Didn't mean to either.
I overreacted.
Just got concerned as I do believe amino acids are far more powerful than foods in effect.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:54:26
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 17:47:49
> i didnt think that tryptophan was illegal in the US , i know of a few other US companies that sell tryptophan but it is much more expensive
Tryptophan was completely banned by the FDA, but with no fanfare, the ban was lifted in 1994. For some of the details, here's an info sheet from the FDA website:
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-tryp1.html
The critical bit of information is the intended use for the tryptophan. If for human consumption, the manufacturer is wholly responsible for the safety of the product. That's why the price is now so high for products marketed for human use. The FDA could no longer reasonably ban the product, but they could put in force regulations not applied to any other supplement, guaranteeing that the price would be high. A cynic would argue that any company marketing tryprophan for human use is doing so to make windfall profits.
Lar <a cynic>
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
Regulations for veterinary supplements are far more stringent than for humans, in the United States. Alpo beef stew is better for you than the supermarket version.
You may have some concerns about using a veterinary product, but I don't.
Lar
Posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
this is from joan larson's site which i have not yet seen mentioned on this board...
i would like to see what you guys think of her work.....
check it out at:
http://www.healthrecovery.com/biochemical_depression.html++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A Word of Caution About 5-Hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Life Extension Foundation newsletterThe reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain. When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the US. as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack. Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor. Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions. 1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe. 2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack. 3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload. 4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic. 5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload.
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 20:14:30
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
> Alpo beef stew is better for you than the supermarket version.
I'm not sure what alpo beef stew is, but I don't think I'll try that one.
Thanks for the correction and FDA link
Jan
Posted by JLx on September 26, 2003, at 20:30:13
In reply to Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
> this is from joan larson's site which i have not yet seen mentioned on this board...
Funny you should say that as I posted her site and mentioned her book right here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263318.html
Are people not reading my posts, for some reason? I've had several lately not answered. Since I'm fairly new around here I'm wondering....have I committed some sort of faux pas? Well, I don't suppose that's the sort of question anyone really answers, is it? ;)
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 21:42:50
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » joebob, posted by JLx on September 26, 2003, at 20:30:13
>
> Are people not reading my posts, for some reason? I've had several lately not answered. Since I'm fairly new around here I'm wondering....have I committed some sort of faux pas?Well, I don't suppose that's the sort of question anyone really answers, is it? ;)
>lol, guess that HAS to get an answer?
I'm fairly new too, I guess.I did see your previous post and realised they were the same, but I'd already stated my uneducated opinion <g> before your first post.
Sometimes if I read a thread I'll find answers I answers to questions I have posed in other posts.
There is someone who posted to me a detailed post on female hormones I think, and I really can't find it to reply to..despite looking..so if it was you (or anyone)..just point out to me where it was, OK? ..not that I know a lot on this <g>
I'm on the opposite side of the world to most you guys, so I'm probably not often on at the same time..or its near midnight and I'm too tired to reply immediately.
Jan
Posted by matthhhh on September 27, 2003, at 10:07:06
In reply to Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
Hey everyone, im having problems ordering the cheap tryptophan from the gp site. The final order page never displays what want to purchase, its always blank! i dont know whats goin on.
Posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 10:22:36
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/--HTP: Other sources, info: » matthhhh, posted by JLx on September 25, 2003, at 19:40:05
do you have any opinions or experience with larson and hrc? i like her books and web site, but don't know anyone who's been to see her....
it seems to me she is more up to date than the pfeiffer folks
best,
joebob
Posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » JLx, posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 21:42:50
> There is someone who posted to me a detailed post on female hormones I think, and I really can't find it to reply to..despite looking..so if it was you (or anyone)..just point out to me where it was, OK? ..not that I know a lot on this <g>
Sorry not to reply sooner, technical difficulties.
Yes, that was me here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261578.html I was wondering there what you think of the Dr. John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone as opposed to Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who says he has it all backwards. I tried natural progesterone and felt worse.
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » tealady, posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
> > Vliet or Larrian Gillepsie?..they reportedly seem to work for most
>
> Yes, it was Vliet in "Screaming to be Heard: Hormonal Connections Women Suspect, and Doctors Still Ignore". Before that I had read, "Natural Progesterone: The Natural Way to Alleviate Symptoms of Menopause, Pms, Endometriosis and Other Hormone-Related Problems"
> by Anna Rushton, Shirley A. Bond and "The Estrogen Alternative: Natural Hormone Therapy with Botanical Progesterone"
> by Raquel Martin, Judi Gerstung. (Those were the books I could get immediately from my local library network.)Re the books: I was looking for some of the titles talked about on the net, but was unable to find ANY in bookstores or libraries anywhere(this was 18mths or more ago)..I know I can buy them over the net..but postage, currency conversion etc works out pretty exxy, so I personally have not read any of them.
I have read quite a few posts and got the gist of people's opinion/ trials etc., as well as websites and articles etc though. Most women seem to go well on Vliet's approach. I do have a book by Gillepsie as she used to post on a forum I was on. She is like Vliet in approach..although no two docs entirely agree on all of this <g>.I thought the natural progesterone folks all made a lot of sense, but then Vliet brought me up short when she said, when do we usually feel the worst in a month,
>if not just before a period when progesterone is high?
that's right in this kindof...our progesterone DROPS right before a period..it's the drop that induces the period.
Progesterone cream is a VERY active compound, which is why it is used in infertility clinics all the time...to HOLD the baby early in a pregnancy...in other words to stop a period happening. Our progesterone goes way high during pregnancy..to hold the baby.Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>If you have NOT ovulated, no progesterone is produced..so here low estrogen causes no ovulation and low progesterone naturally.Taking progesterone won't induce ovulation....only adequate estradiol will do that.
Here's a link http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/hrt/hrt_menstr_hormone.htmFrom about 30-35ish on, women are gradually losing estradiol.
Remember my opinion only..
When estrogen drops, there is a signal to the adrenal glands to increase cortisol production...
using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....Progesterone cream converts to cortisol partly..and if one is under stress ..that can cause a cortisol surge too, and the cortisol surges cause estrogen swings..so can you see why this might cause problems like migraines, fluid retention, depression... Progesterone also suppresses estrogen..which is needed in our brains
"Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy for treating depression, anxiety etc...
but none of the docs completely agree on everything..most do recognise the problems of insufficient estrogen though and kinda agree to disagree on testosterone, progesterone etc.Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol, causing fluid retention(bloating) and does not much to replace what you are missing....levels of estrogen.(it actually functions as an anti-estrogen).
However , there are a few women who benefit. Some young women may possibly benefit where their estrogen spikes way too high (unusual I think)..also those with endometriosis.
I've seen one lady who has found she can covert progesterone to estrogen adequately...probably hundreds who don't though.
What progesterone is good for is perhaps a short term boost ..as a lot converts to cortisol,..which is why most feel good short term
Longer term some women are taking progesterone successfully if cycling it and using it to regulate periods..it appears good for this in some women ..here's a reply I got from someone whose opinion I value"As for the progesterone. I never had a problem with it. I used it as directed since last Sept, thru May and then thought I'd give it a go without. Just to see what would happen. First month off I was 3 days late but had no PMS symptoms still and a normal period. Second month off I was right on time as if I were still using the cream. No symptoms again. Now I should have my 3rd cycle off the cream by this weekend. We'll see if my body is still straightened out and hope my period comes on time. I simply got tired of remembering to use the cream on days 12-26 each month. That's why I quit the cream. Too lazy to watch a calendar you might say. And I wanted to see how I'd do without it for a while.
You can bet that if I get any painful or heavy period problems, I'll go right back on the cream since it seemed to fix a lifetime of problem periods">
> I know natural progesterone is said to work for many and I found it very disappointing it didn't for me, although I did later find a message board where some other women had a bad experience too.>
> I wouldn't rule out trying natural progesterone again -- perhaps I took too much or it would have been ok if I'd stuck it out longer, but basically I felt I had to quit it because I was feeling so much worse, and CRAVING carbohydrates as well, which was something I'd been free of on magnesium.yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
>> For years, I took a women's herbal formula that included 25 mg of DHEA because it was the only appreciable thing that helped with depression. I found that out by inadvertently buying the DHEAless version of the same brand and noticing I felt worse. I had just quit that when I started on magnesium. I'm back on it again, just taking it a bit less than previously.I haven't tried DHEA. I do have a script for it (none of this is available otc in Oz)..I'm just trying to find out more about it...
>
> I think now in general, that without the DHEA, with the magnesium, with other radical dietary changes leading to a weight loss of 45 lbs (fat=estrogen, fat loss=grhelin and who knows what other hormones and how they intereact with each other) I was just way out of whack hormonally after two months. Some of it may have been a normal fluctuation, as I didn't have a period for 4-5 months, and restarted again but Eby says boron, which I've also been taking, can bring back periods in menopausal women which implies a major hormonal impact just from that.Well you can't get a period if you don't have any endometrial buildup...but if you do take estrogen it's best to use progesterone for 5 days or so every 3 months to induce a period(after you stop the progesterone) to shed any buildup.
I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I'm being so longwinded, in case anyone can shed some light on these hormonal/depression interactions. What's your experience/opinion of the John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone?Well basically a above, but also I believe low estrogen can cause depression ..and also some won't respond to antiD's with low estrogen levels in their brains. (my opinion only again)
Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors"...I've heard there is a new process under patent at the moment I think in the US to do something to estradiol so it can be absorbed thru a cream...but that is not used by compounding pharmacies...
>. It really makes me angry that they are so ignorant of nutrition and how it impacts depression.
Yes it doesn't seem to be taught over here either..not covered in any courses that I know of..some optional courses run for post grads
They are better trained in Germany, at least on hormones etc(the docs..unsure of the p-docs).
I'm constantly amazed/amused? at how little the docs know usually.
I mean statements like(from one of my docs)... "I studied Medicine..I didn't do any science. Medicine is NOT science....or how about "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>..still that same doc is excellent at setting broken bones. My opinion here is that medicine has just got toooo large in knowledge and really probably completely different specialties need to happen from fairly early on in training ..with some having an emphasis on nutrition/hormones/biochemistry etc
>
> > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> I am going to start eating cottage cheese though, despite my "no dairy" rule as it has a high percentage of taurine and is low in calcium.Hope this helps,
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 6:33:39
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » tealady, posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
Here's some experiences..
I've included the url's if you are interested
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.16
"I tried natural progesterone for 3 years and found that it made me wired and crazy, caused insomnia, bloating, breast tenderness and gave me very heavy clotting periods. Of course I just thought I was going wacky but within 2 months of stopping the progesterone, all those symptoms disappeared. Since reproductive hormones like progesterone are stored in the fat cells, it took about 2 months for it to leave my body. "http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.19
"I find that my highest progesterone time is when my boobs hurt, I'm irritable, crave sugar or chocolate, etc. I've never tried pregnancy, but the highest time for progesterone is maintaining a pregnancy (that is why it goes up after ovulation). It is also a time when boobs can hurt and women can have food cravings (and gain a lot of weight)"http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.21
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.25
"When I became menopausal at 42, I experienced severe hot flashes. I read Dr. Lee's book about natural progesterone and I purchased ProGest, a natural progesterone cream because I was fighting going on HRT. It did NOT help the hot flashes at all and I was noticeably depressed. I stopped the cream and the depression improved. Eventually, I began taking natural HRT (estrace and prometrium, natural oral progesterone). The hot flashes improved. After 3 years we have dropped the prometrium to 12 days every 3 months, and I have to say it has vastly improved the way I feel since I do not have to take the progesterone every day"
Actually if you just read thru a bit of that thread you may get an idea..here's another further along in threadDr. Lee is a chiropracter, not an MD. And not a gyno" Dr. Lee is a MD, at least that's what his book says.
Now, I don't agree with him (anymore) that postmeno women are estrogen dominant. Maybe the really obese ones could be, don't know.
I used ProGest for several years and while it has some merits at some point it began to cause me depression which he says it won't do. I quit it & am glad I did. Now I'd never recommend anyone use it."But a few do have success with progesterone... usually only using for less than a year though...
Good luck with whatever you decide,
Jan?
Posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
> Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.
> OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
> using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
> "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
Was this a good book?
> Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
> yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".
> I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
> Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?
> "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>Hey, lucky you! ;)
>You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know. Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
> Hope this helps,
Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
JL
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
> > Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
>
> I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.My guess is some women need the cortisol etc. and some of the progesterone does convert to estrogen (if lucky), ..the conversion would be individual..I think I gave an example of one woman who appeared to convert a lot to estrogen. There are "typical" pathways followed and sometimes other pathways followed..it's individual.
Also you never know but there may be other thing are bodies use progesterone for...it makes sense to me..they just haven't discovered it as yet. The known stuff here is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
That's why I really like to hear/read of folk's individual experiences..they are real
I've found that most women who have success with progesterone, usually cycle it..like days 12 to 26..and only take for a few months at a time.
Most unsuccessful take constantly for over a year...probably their cortisol levels just build up too high after this..then they start showing signs of cushings>
> > OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> > Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> > If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>
>
> One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
>
> > using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
>
> > "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
>
> Was this a good book?Well it's a couple of years since I read it. I liked it at the time, as I had always thought my hormonal levels should be treated instead of just being handed out AD's ..but docs are scared of estrogen, due to cancer etc, and for some reason seem to think antiD's are akin to jelly beans for women <g>
I used to find them difficult to tolerate.
I think I like this book at the time as it was agreeing with what I had always suspected for me, that if you get the hormonal levels corrected the depression will lift, or at least his patients could then respond more normally to the antiD's.>
> > Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
>
> That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
>
> > yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
> I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".well some people have too low cortisol..where the stress has lasted a long time usually
>
> > I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
>
> > Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
>
> I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?<g>..yes, it works. I haven't tried the type they buy though. It's popular in France and Germany...has been for a long time.
>
> > "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>
>
> Hey, lucky you! ;)guess we all have to work within limits
>
> >You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know.None of the companies I contacted would say..the best answer I got was ..whatever is cheapest at the time
Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
>
> > Hope this helps,
Thanks, re DHEA I haven't tried....probably will start next weekend. Both DHEA and progesterone are only available under doc's scripts over here..
>
> Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
>
> JL
>
Jan
Posted by EscherDementian on October 13, 2003, at 1:52:23
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
tealady, Thank you, Thank you again for your informed and generous info. and directions for looking.
Forgive this "lurker"'s butt-in, here, but i had to thank you.
My PMHNP mentioned female hormones thrice while we were trying to balance my out-of-whack cortisol and depression, but never followed through with a proposed solution or more info. before she abandoned me to a referral away.
Are we twins, afterall? Are you my PMHNP's reversed 'Shadow' in the CJung sense?
i have much to study and look into, ThankYou for your directed light.Escher
P.S. much more focused nowadays. Thanx for being there when i was still ranting.
Posted by Ron Jones on October 15, 2003, at 14:50:40
In reply to 5-HTP, posted by Penny on September 4, 2003, at 13:32:53
I hate 5htp .It could not take it.Fish oil and inositol is much better.
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