Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » tealady, posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
> > Vliet or Larrian Gillepsie?..they reportedly seem to work for most
>
> Yes, it was Vliet in "Screaming to be Heard: Hormonal Connections Women Suspect, and Doctors Still Ignore". Before that I had read, "Natural Progesterone: The Natural Way to Alleviate Symptoms of Menopause, Pms, Endometriosis and Other Hormone-Related Problems"
> by Anna Rushton, Shirley A. Bond and "The Estrogen Alternative: Natural Hormone Therapy with Botanical Progesterone"
> by Raquel Martin, Judi Gerstung. (Those were the books I could get immediately from my local library network.)Re the books: I was looking for some of the titles talked about on the net, but was unable to find ANY in bookstores or libraries anywhere(this was 18mths or more ago)..I know I can buy them over the net..but postage, currency conversion etc works out pretty exxy, so I personally have not read any of them.
I have read quite a few posts and got the gist of people's opinion/ trials etc., as well as websites and articles etc though. Most women seem to go well on Vliet's approach. I do have a book by Gillepsie as she used to post on a forum I was on. She is like Vliet in approach..although no two docs entirely agree on all of this <g>.I thought the natural progesterone folks all made a lot of sense, but then Vliet brought me up short when she said, when do we usually feel the worst in a month,
>if not just before a period when progesterone is high?
that's right in this kindof...our progesterone DROPS right before a period..it's the drop that induces the period.
Progesterone cream is a VERY active compound, which is why it is used in infertility clinics all the time...to HOLD the baby early in a pregnancy...in other words to stop a period happening. Our progesterone goes way high during pregnancy..to hold the baby.Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>If you have NOT ovulated, no progesterone is produced..so here low estrogen causes no ovulation and low progesterone naturally.Taking progesterone won't induce ovulation....only adequate estradiol will do that.
Here's a link http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/hrt/hrt_menstr_hormone.htmFrom about 30-35ish on, women are gradually losing estradiol.
Remember my opinion only..
When estrogen drops, there is a signal to the adrenal glands to increase cortisol production...
using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....Progesterone cream converts to cortisol partly..and if one is under stress ..that can cause a cortisol surge too, and the cortisol surges cause estrogen swings..so can you see why this might cause problems like migraines, fluid retention, depression... Progesterone also suppresses estrogen..which is needed in our brains
"Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy for treating depression, anxiety etc...
but none of the docs completely agree on everything..most do recognise the problems of insufficient estrogen though and kinda agree to disagree on testosterone, progesterone etc.Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol, causing fluid retention(bloating) and does not much to replace what you are missing....levels of estrogen.(it actually functions as an anti-estrogen).
However , there are a few women who benefit. Some young women may possibly benefit where their estrogen spikes way too high (unusual I think)..also those with endometriosis.
I've seen one lady who has found she can covert progesterone to estrogen adequately...probably hundreds who don't though.
What progesterone is good for is perhaps a short term boost ..as a lot converts to cortisol,..which is why most feel good short term
Longer term some women are taking progesterone successfully if cycling it and using it to regulate periods..it appears good for this in some women ..here's a reply I got from someone whose opinion I value"As for the progesterone. I never had a problem with it. I used it as directed since last Sept, thru May and then thought I'd give it a go without. Just to see what would happen. First month off I was 3 days late but had no PMS symptoms still and a normal period. Second month off I was right on time as if I were still using the cream. No symptoms again. Now I should have my 3rd cycle off the cream by this weekend. We'll see if my body is still straightened out and hope my period comes on time. I simply got tired of remembering to use the cream on days 12-26 each month. That's why I quit the cream. Too lazy to watch a calendar you might say. And I wanted to see how I'd do without it for a while.
You can bet that if I get any painful or heavy period problems, I'll go right back on the cream since it seemed to fix a lifetime of problem periods">
> I know natural progesterone is said to work for many and I found it very disappointing it didn't for me, although I did later find a message board where some other women had a bad experience too.>
> I wouldn't rule out trying natural progesterone again -- perhaps I took too much or it would have been ok if I'd stuck it out longer, but basically I felt I had to quit it because I was feeling so much worse, and CRAVING carbohydrates as well, which was something I'd been free of on magnesium.yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
>> For years, I took a women's herbal formula that included 25 mg of DHEA because it was the only appreciable thing that helped with depression. I found that out by inadvertently buying the DHEAless version of the same brand and noticing I felt worse. I had just quit that when I started on magnesium. I'm back on it again, just taking it a bit less than previously.I haven't tried DHEA. I do have a script for it (none of this is available otc in Oz)..I'm just trying to find out more about it...
>
> I think now in general, that without the DHEA, with the magnesium, with other radical dietary changes leading to a weight loss of 45 lbs (fat=estrogen, fat loss=grhelin and who knows what other hormones and how they intereact with each other) I was just way out of whack hormonally after two months. Some of it may have been a normal fluctuation, as I didn't have a period for 4-5 months, and restarted again but Eby says boron, which I've also been taking, can bring back periods in menopausal women which implies a major hormonal impact just from that.Well you can't get a period if you don't have any endometrial buildup...but if you do take estrogen it's best to use progesterone for 5 days or so every 3 months to induce a period(after you stop the progesterone) to shed any buildup.
I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I'm being so longwinded, in case anyone can shed some light on these hormonal/depression interactions. What's your experience/opinion of the John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone?Well basically a above, but also I believe low estrogen can cause depression ..and also some won't respond to antiD's with low estrogen levels in their brains. (my opinion only again)
Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors"...I've heard there is a new process under patent at the moment I think in the US to do something to estradiol so it can be absorbed thru a cream...but that is not used by compounding pharmacies...
>. It really makes me angry that they are so ignorant of nutrition and how it impacts depression.
Yes it doesn't seem to be taught over here either..not covered in any courses that I know of..some optional courses run for post grads
They are better trained in Germany, at least on hormones etc(the docs..unsure of the p-docs).
I'm constantly amazed/amused? at how little the docs know usually.
I mean statements like(from one of my docs)... "I studied Medicine..I didn't do any science. Medicine is NOT science....or how about "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>..still that same doc is excellent at setting broken bones. My opinion here is that medicine has just got toooo large in knowledge and really probably completely different specialties need to happen from fairly early on in training ..with some having an emphasis on nutrition/hormones/biochemistry etc
>
> > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> I am going to start eating cottage cheese though, despite my "no dairy" rule as it has a high percentage of taurine and is low in calcium.Hope this helps,
Jan
poster:tealady
thread:256950
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/265672.html