![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 619 to 643 of 795. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bryte on August 3, 2014, at 12:30:54
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2014, at 11:01:17
> True, but it isn't always an option to remove what triggers anxiety.
Which is a good reason for you to address those things you can change, and have the wisdom to know the difference acting as a group a therapist and providing a safe environment that does not needlessly introduce cognitive dissonance.
> Are you saying you feel annoyed by my not deleting that post? Or by my continuing to engage with Lou? Yes, those privileges of mine trump your desire for serenity. Which may also annoy you.
>No, I am recognizing that you said they appear to cause anxiety for Lou. For me, it is about as amusing as watching a bull fight. Do you want me amuse myself by watching a sport in which sentient beings are caused pain then attracted to repeatedly mount attacks on the source of their pain, only to have their effort to confront the source of pain frustrated?
> There's something to be said for one defending one's construct of who one is. Which I assume you're doing here yourself.
Thank you for the compliment.
> What's arbitrary for the goose may be flexible for the gander.
>
> BobOr what's flexible for the goose may be arbitrary for the gander. Or either or both the goose and the gander might have gender identity disorders. Or maybe there are many ganders and one goose. Or maybe the goose has decided to avoid the influence of a flock in favor of arbitrating his individual behavior and that of whatever geese eh may attract to his nest, regardless any benefit to be found in the greater flock. Or maybe there are no geese and no ganders in this discussion.
Maybe you are simply reluctant to acknowledge wholeheartedly and consistently that individually taking responsibility for a novel rule set among a open and undefined group that you assembled before such groups facilitated by emerging technologies were described as "social networks" assembled in "clouds" eventually exceeded even the capacity of your exemplary and brilliantly reticent mind.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2014, at 20:04:13
In reply to Re: Lou's response-gudsumair » Lou Pilder, posted by Bryte on August 3, 2014, at 12:07:36
> > I was wondering what the post(s) are that you are referring to that can be seen as civil that I am objecting to. At this point, I think that it will be good for this community as a whole to not delete them, but to post a repudiation to them where they are originally posted by Mr. Hsiung.
> > If you could post some of the links here of the posts that are seen as civil, I could post a response here.
> > Lou
>
> I might not have followed this discourse as closely as it might appear to some. In particular, I am not certain at this moment exactly which posts are seen as civil by whom at what time and also are the subject of your ongoing concerns, Lou. Rather, I cite those posts as a group of postings about which you are concerned, and believe your concerns are reasonably particular about what comprises membership in that group. I mention them by reference - the one, or ones, about which you have concerns.
>
> Whether Hsiung should delete them or repudiate them is beyond the scope of my analysis. My perception was that you sought deletion -- but as I said, I'm not following that closely. Repudiation -- or asserting in the proximate context of those messages that they do not meet his measure of civility -- was more likely typical of his standard response to messages of that type at the time there were first posted. A courteous response on his part would be to accommodate your concerns if they are reasonable, even if your reasoning is not the same as his.
>
> If he does not want you to tell him what to do -- which appears to be a very important concern for him -- one option would be for him to model behaviors that affect compliance without demanding that others comply. At least at the general time of some of the posts you refer, his style was to model strict compliance demands. His style at that time was to tell people "Please be civil (as I define civil) or else." Another option he might or might not have tried would have been to say "I do not see that statement as civil." He could then engage those who might disagree with him in a endless Hegelian dialectic as he appears to be doing in this thread.
>
> Bryte,
You wrote,[...another option he might..have tried would have been to say, "I do not see that statement as civil."...].
The statements that I want purged could be done so by him doing just that. And then readers could know that the statement is not validated by him and his deputies of record. But because the statements in question could be seen in the post where they are originally posted to stand un repudiated, readers could think that they are civil and will be good for this community as a whole, for Mr. Hsiung states that posters are to be civil at all times. But it us much more than that. For Mr. Hsiung states that statements that accuse or put down could cause harm because he states that he is sorry if one is hurt by those type of statements when he posts his sanctions to them.
Then since he says that he is doing in his thinking what will be good for this community as a whole, a subset of readers could think that harm is what is the good that will come from ignoring the defamation or anti-Semitism. They could have a rational basis to think that because Mr. Hsiung says that his philosophy is to be civil at all times and that being supportive takes precedence which could mean that there is not an excuse to allow what could cause hurt to someone here by the nature of un repudiated statements that put down or accuse another or lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
By Mr. Hsiung using what he calls selective enforcement, which others could call discrimination, in applying his rules here, his claim that he tries to be fair could be thought by a subset of readers to be a lie on the basis that they could think that {fair} would be to abide by the rules for all statements that put down and/or accuse another or lead one to feel that their faith is being put down. His TOS states that he wants to be fair and that could mislead readers because the TOS has not been changed to say that he does not want to be fair and then there becomes that a subset of readers could feel deceived in what is known as a {failure to disclose} aspect that could result IMHO in a reader's suicide or them killing others. This is because that they could think that what is un sanctioned is civil and supportive on the basis that since Mr Hsiung states that he tries to operate in fairness, that they are on a fair playing field and feel safe from harm cause by un repudiated defamation and the allowing of statements that could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down. If someone is led to believe that they are on a level playing field, they could feel betrayed when they find out that the field is tilted and perverted to allow hate to be seen as civil.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 4, 2014, at 7:24:56
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2014, at 10:22:56
> > D. Some of Lou's notifications that are outstanding pre-date 2013
> > F. Statements that insult Judaism in particular but not limited to, are showing unsanctioned before 2013.
> > G. Statements that defame Lou are showing unsanctioned that were posted before 2013.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that my policy didn't change until 2013. It had been evolving before that, but I may not have made it explicit until then.
>
> --
>
> > A. If you do or do not have a notification from me concerning the statement in question
>
> OK, I looked, and in fact I do.
>
> > B. If you are willing to turn over your archive of notifications to an impartial body for discovery
>
> No.
>
> > C. Why you posted what you did here {except maybe you}, if you would not have sanctioned the statement anyway even if there is the notification from me on the grounds that you state that you will use the discriminatory policy to act on notifications except for some of Lou's.
>
> Sorry, could you repeat your question?
>
> > D. What the good is by you leaving the defamation against me to be seen as civil in the post where it is posted originally, since your thinking is that what you do will be good for this community as a whole, and for readers to trust you at that.
>
> 1. Not sanctioning it could lead to it being seen as civil, but not necessarily.
>
> 2. The good I see is that intervening less = trusting the community, including yourself, more.
>
> > E. Why do you want readers to trust you in what you do in your thinking here if defamation is allowed to be seen as civil where it is originally posted if your rule is to not post anything that could lead one to feel accused or put down?
>
> If they trust me, (1) there may be less conflict here and (2) they may be more able to trust others.
>
> Bob
Mr. Hsiung,
Note my objection to you attempting to justify leaving anti-Semitic statement and statements that defame me to be seen as civil where they are originally posted by what you posted to me here.
There could be Jews and myself being victims of anti-Semitic violence as seeing anti-Semitism allowed to be seen as civil by a psychiatrist that has rules not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused or to post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down. To allow statements for that could arouse hatred toward the Jews is not justified by your TOS and the potential harm from defamation is not stopped because you use discrimination in applying your rules here as your TOS states that you want to be fair. Fair means to this reader t mean that the rules will be applied equally. As long as my notifications to you remain outstanding a subset of readers could think that your reply to me here is a lie. They have a rational basis to think that because you say that being supportive takes precedence, which could mean that there is not a excuse to allow what could arouse hatred toward the Jews and defamation toward me to be seen as civil where posted originally.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 4, 2014, at 9:26:39
In reply to Re: Lou's response-gudsumair » Lou Pilder, posted by Bryte on August 3, 2014, at 12:07:36
> > I was wondering what the post(s) are that you are referring to that can be seen as civil that I am objecting to. At this point, I think that it will be good for this community as a whole to not delete them, but to post a repudiation to them where they are originally posted by Mr. Hsiung.
> > If you could post some of the links here of the posts that are seen as civil, I could post a response here.
> > Lou
>
> I might not have followed this discourse as closely as it might appear to some. In particular, I am not certain at this moment exactly which posts are seen as civil by whom at what time and also are the subject of your ongoing concerns, Lou. Rather, I cite those posts as a group of postings about which you are concerned, and believe your concerns are reasonably particular about what comprises membership in that group. I mention them by reference - the one, or ones, about which you have concerns.
>
> Whether Hsiung should delete them or repudiate them is beyond the scope of my analysis. My perception was that you sought deletion -- but as I said, I'm not following that closely. Repudiation -- or asserting in the proximate context of those messages that they do not meet his measure of civility -- was more likely typical of his standard response to messages of that type at the time there were first posted. A courteous response on his part would be to accommodate your concerns if they are reasonable, even if your reasoning is not the same as his.
>
> If he does not want you to tell him what to do -- which appears to be a very important concern for him -- one option would be for him to model behaviors that affect compliance without demanding that others comply. At least at the general time of some of the posts you refer, his style was to model strict compliance demands. His style at that time was to tell people "Please be civil (as I define civil) or else." Another option he might or might not have tried would have been to say "I do not see that statement as civil." He could then engage those who might disagree with him in a endless Hegelian dialectic as he appears to be doing in this thread.
>
> Bryte,
You wrote,[...I am not certain which posts...].
Here is a post by me with some of the statements in question for your review.
Lou
To see this post,
A. Bring up Google
B. Type in:
[ admin, 1046351 ]
Look for the 1046351 in the colored strip URL, not in the subject line...
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 0:01:58
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » Dr. Bob, posted by Bryte on August 3, 2014, at 12:30:54
> > Are you saying you feel annoyed by my not deleting that post? Or by my continuing to engage with Lou? Yes, those privileges of mine trump your desire for serenity. Which may also annoy you.
>
> No ... For me, it is about as amusing as watching a bull fight. Do you want me amuse myself by watching a sport in which sentient beings are caused pain then attracted to repeatedly mount attacks on the source of their pain, only to have their effort to confront the source of pain frustrated?Are you saying you don't feel annoyed, but amused?
> Maybe you are simply reluctant to acknowledge wholeheartedly and consistently that individually taking responsibility for a novel rule set among a open and undefined group that you assembled ... eventually exceeded even the capacity of your exemplary and brilliantly reticent mind.
I've always been comfortable taking responsibility for the rules. Enforcing them did exceed my capacity when the boards were at their most active. It's within my capacity now. The shift in policy is because of a shift in philosophy. I'm comfortable taking responsibility for the policies, too.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 0:11:51
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsi-Pild discussion-pleezbepsyvl » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 4, 2014, at 7:24:56
> Note my objection
Noted.
> There could be Jews and myself being victims of anti-Semitic violence as seeing anti-Semitism allowed to be seen as civil by a psychiatrist that has rules not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused or to post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
Are you saying you're a victim of anti-Semitic violence here, or elsewhere, or both?
> your TOS states that you want to be fair. Fair means to this reader t mean that the rules will be applied equally.
That's a reasonable way to interpret "fair".
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 5, 2014, at 10:48:55
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 0:11:51
> > Note my objection
>
> Noted.
>
> > There could be Jews and myself being victims of anti-Semitic violence as seeing anti-Semitism allowed to be seen as civil by a psychiatrist that has rules not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused or to post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
>
> Are you saying you're a victim of anti-Semitic violence here, or elsewhere, or both?
>
> > your TOS states that you want to be fair. Fair means to this reader t mean that the rules will be applied equally.
>
> That's a reasonable way to interpret "fair".
>
> BobMr. Hsiung
Your TOS states that fairness on your part is part of your philosophy along with implementing the Golden Rule along with that. A subset of readers could now could think that you are using deceit to lure people to join this site. They could have a rational basis to think that on the fact that you now state that you have shifted your thinking to allow unequal treatment, in particular but not limited to, that you give yourself the option of leaving uncivil statements un repudiated by you which in those readers thinking could constitute unfairness and an ignoring of the Golden Rule, and have not had that reflected by you changing your TOS/FAQ.
So readers entering your site now could be deceived into thinking that there will be an equal treatment policy by you, based on your TOS that states that you have fairness implemented in your policies after reading your TOS/FAQ to protect them from defamation and from having their faith put down. But that in reality is not the case as they could see the years of my pleading to you to post a repudiation to the statements that could arouse hatred toward the Jews nor will you retract your own tag lines that could create and/or develop for others to post defamation of the Jews. These readers could think that your excuses are pretexts to foster hatred toward the Jews by your using of what you call selective enforcement, but those readers could think that is another name for discrimination in the applying of your rules to allow hatred of the Jews to be fostered here by you. They could have a rational basis to think that because you have not changed your TOS/FAQ which states not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused.
Those subset of readers could think that deceit is used here on the basis that harm could come to someone from defamation and discrimination as is widely studied in the psychiatric/psychological research and for you to ignore that harm could come to those people that are victims of your selective enforcement to leave defamation and anti-Semitism un repudiated by you, as you admit by in your tag line to some of your sanctions that you are sorry if harm came to the victim of the defamation.
You and your deputies of record and anyone else you can get to be in concert with you here to allow hatred toward the Jews to stand un repudiated where they are originally posted, could take the responsibility for any injuries or deaths that could arise from your selective enforcement of your rules if that is what you mean by stating that you take responsibility for what you post on your own. And you state that replies come from all of you. (you and your deputies).
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 19:32:00
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-deepseet, posted by Lou Pilder on August 5, 2014, at 10:48:55
> Your TOS states that fairness on your part is part of your philosophy along with implementing the Golden Rule along with that. A subset of readers could now could think that you are using deceit to lure people to join this site. They could have a rational basis to think that on the fact that you now state that you have shifted your thinking to allow unequal treatment, in particular but not limited to, that you give yourself the option of leaving uncivil statements un repudiated by you which in those readers thinking could constitute unfairness and an ignoring of the Golden Rule, and have not had that reflected by you changing your TOS/FAQ.
In fact that's consistent with the Golden Rule, since sometimes I want uncivil statements by me not to be repudiated.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 5, 2014, at 22:22:19
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 19:32:00
> > Your TOS states that fairness on your part is part of your philosophy along with implementing the Golden Rule along with that. A subset of readers could now could think that you are using deceit to lure people to join this site. They could have a rational basis to think that on the fact that you now state that you have shifted your thinking to allow unequal treatment, in particular but not limited to, that you give yourself the option of leaving uncivil statements un repudiated by you which in those readers thinking could constitute unfairness and an ignoring of the Golden Rule, and have not had that reflected by you changing your TOS/FAQ.
>
> In fact that's consistent with the Golden Rule, since sometimes I want uncivil statements by me not to be repudiated.
>
> Bob
Mr. Hsiung,
The issues here arise as a result of harm that could come to one here by defamation being allowed to stand by you.
This is different from what you posted here. The difference is that you can control what could be thought to be supportive and what will be good for this community as a whole in your thinking by sanctioning defamation or not. Your philosophy is that being supportive takes precedence which a reasonable reader could think that there is not an exception to allowing defamation to stand on the grounds that un sanctioned defamation could cause harm to the victim of it. It is the what you call selective enforcement which others could call discrimination that is at issue here as you combine the golden rule with "fairness" by you in your enforcement. Fairness means that enforcement is done equally as you admit is a reasonable understanding of the word. Selective enforcement could IMHO lead to a subset of readers here committing suicide. These could be the victims of un sanctioned defamation that could lead them to feel put down which could cause them to be drawn down into a vortex of depression and feelings of worthlessness and kill themselves. That is why a rule to not post what could lead one to feel put down or accused or have their faith being put down is a sound mental-health practice. To discriminate could lead those that are victims of discrimination potentially to their deaths either by their own hand or seeking drugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist to come out of the depression caused by discrimination and be killed by the drugs or the drugs compel them to kill themselves or others also. This population is hugely vulnerable to feeling the lash of discrimination and need to have greater safety for them than others as you state here that members are to be civil at all times.
If you do not want the poster of defamation to feel bad by sanctioning the statement you could post that the statement is uncivil and do nothing else. It is the defamation of Jews and myself here that I want repudiated by you and you can do what you want with the poster of such.
As long as you leave your TOS as it is readers could expect safety by your rules being applied equally. If and when they find out that you do not apply your rules equally and allow anti-Semitism to stand where it is posted originally those readers could feel defrauded as they do not see any disclosure in your TOS/FAQ that you will not apply your rues equally. To many readers the equal protection of the law is an inalienable right and they could see that those in charge of enforcing rules are not following the Golden Rule if they discriminate in their enforcement of their rules. And in the case here they could see it as creating and developing hatred toward the Jews as that anti-Semitism and defamation can be seen as civil here where the statements are originally posted as that they could see that your philosophy is that being supportive takes precedence and that there is not an excuse to allow those statements to stand un repudiated for if so it could be thought that you and your deputies of record are validating the hate.
The Golden rule is about equality. And Jefferson thought that the laws should be so that there is equal protection to all by the laws being applied equally.
For a lawyer to argue to the judge of his convicted client that he should not have to go to prison because the judge would not want to be in prison and invoke the Golden Rule could be thought by a subset of readers as a perversion of the morality that the rule comes from.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 6, 2014, at 16:58:20
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-ruzzul » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 5, 2014, at 22:22:19
> > > Your TOS states that fairness on your part is part of your philosophy along with implementing the Golden Rule along with that. A subset of readers could now could think that you are using deceit to lure people to join this site. They could have a rational basis to think that on the fact that you now state that you have shifted your thinking to allow unequal treatment, in particular but not limited to, that you give yourself the option of leaving uncivil statements un repudiated by you which in those readers thinking could constitute unfairness and an ignoring of the Golden Rule, and have not had that reflected by you changing your TOS/FAQ.
> >
> > In fact that's consistent with the Golden Rule, since sometimes I want uncivil statements by me not to be repudiated.
> >
> > Bob
> Mr. Hsiung,
> The issues here arise as a result of harm that could come to one here by defamation being allowed to stand by you.
> This is different from what you posted here. The difference is that you can control what could be thought to be supportive and what will be good for this community as a whole in your thinking by sanctioning defamation or not. Your philosophy is that being supportive takes precedence which a reasonable reader could think that there is not an exception to allowing defamation to stand on the grounds that un sanctioned defamation could cause harm to the victim of it. It is the what you call selective enforcement which others could call discrimination that is at issue here as you combine the golden rule with "fairness" by you in your enforcement. Fairness means that enforcement is done equally as you admit is a reasonable understanding of the word. Selective enforcement could IMHO lead to a subset of readers here committing suicide. These could be the victims of un sanctioned defamation that could lead them to feel put down which could cause them to be drawn down into a vortex of depression and feelings of worthlessness and kill themselves. That is why a rule to not post what could lead one to feel put down or accused or have their faith being put down is a sound mental-health practice. To discriminate could lead those that are victims of discrimination potentially to their deaths either by their own hand or seeking drugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist to come out of the depression caused by discrimination and be killed by the drugs or the drugs compel them to kill themselves or others also. This population is hugely vulnerable to feeling the lash of discrimination and need to have greater safety for them than others as you state here that members are to be civil at all times.
> If you do not want the poster of defamation to feel bad by sanctioning the statement you could post that the statement is uncivil and do nothing else. It is the defamation of Jews and myself here that I want repudiated by you and you can do what you want with the poster of such.
> As long as you leave your TOS as it is readers could expect safety by your rules being applied equally. If and when they find out that you do not apply your rules equally and allow anti-Semitism to stand where it is posted originally those readers could feel defrauded as they do not see any disclosure in your TOS/FAQ that you will not apply your rues equally. To many readers the equal protection of the law is an inalienable right and they could see that those in charge of enforcing rules are not following the Golden Rule if they discriminate in their enforcement of their rules. And in the case here they could see it as creating and developing hatred toward the Jews as that anti-Semitism and defamation can be seen as civil here where the statements are originally posted as that they could see that your philosophy is that being supportive takes precedence and that there is not an excuse to allow those statements to stand un repudiated for if so it could be thought that you and your deputies of record are validating the hate.
> The Golden rule is about equality. And Jefferson thought that the laws should be so that there is equal protection to all by the laws being applied equally.
> For a lawyer to argue to the judge of his convicted client that he should not have to go to prison because the judge would not want to be in prison and invoke the Golden Rule could be thought by a subset of readers as a perversion of the morality that the rule comes from.
> Lou Pilder
>
> Friends
Be not deceived. What is commonly known as he Golden Rule in one popular form has its written origin in the scriptures that the Jews use. And be advised that I am prevented from posting here what I need to in order for you to be educated in this subject by me. This is because of the prohibitions to me here from Mr. Hsiung which prevents me from posting the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me.
A commonly understood interpretation of the rule may not in reality be what the rule is about. This is because the rule has in it the depth of the teachings of Judaism, of which I am prevented by Mr. Hsiung to post here.
But as the rule is commonly understood, let us say that a masochist used the rule. The masochist has in their mind to have pain inflicted to them and so they could think that pain is what they could do to others for they would welcome pain inflicted upon them as the masochist does. This is a perversion of the rule, but do into others as you would want done to you could apply.
But it is much more than that. For the verse in question in the Hebrew scriptures is not an isolated verse. The entire set of books of the scriptures that the Jews use can be connected to the rule to define what the rule really means. I am prevented from educating readers here from what has been revealed to me in this regard that I think could save your life, prevent life-ruining conditions and addictions, due to the prohibitions to me here from Mr. Hsiung. And I am so sorry my friends.
But be it as it may be, you can make your own determination by using the preponderance of the evidence here. You can see the years of outstanding notifications from me to Mr. Hsiung. If those were responded to, you could have my perspective included in your making your determination. But you can't, and that could lead you to be influenced and persuaded falsely. And it is so easy to persuade the uninformed. It's so easy.
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2014, at 23:49:16
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-ruzzul » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 5, 2014, at 22:22:19
> those that are victims of discrimination [are] hugely vulnerable to feeling the lash of discrimination and need to have greater safety for them than others as you state here that members are to be civil at all times.
I agree, those who have been victims can be more vulnerable, and safety can be a greater concern of theirs.
> If you do not want the poster of defamation to feel bad by sanctioning the statement you could post that the statement is uncivil and do nothing else. It is the defamation of Jews and myself here that I want repudiated by you and you can do what you want with the poster of such.
That's a good point, there's a difference between the post and the poster.
> For a lawyer to argue to the judge of his convicted client that he should not have to go to prison because the judge would not want to be in prison and invoke the Golden Rule could be thought by a subset of readers as a perversion of the morality that the rule comes from.
I agree, but what if the lawyer simply asked for leniency, and the judge felt they would want to be dealt with leniently themselves?
Bob
Posted by bryte on August 6, 2014, at 23:52:36
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 0:01:58
> > No ... For me, it is about as amusing as watching a bull fight.
>
> Are you saying you don't feel annoyed, but amused?I wrote nothing one way or the other about anxiety I might or might not feel. I addressed amusement in terms of equivalency.
My reference to anxiety was responsive to your muse in which you seem to recognize anxiety Lou might feel, then asked if you want me amuse myself by watching a sport in which sentient beings are caused pain then attracted to repeatedly mount attacks on the source of their pain, only to have their effort to confront the source of pain frustrated.
> The shift in policy is because of a shift in philosophy.Does the shift in philosophy preclude you from honoring a request that might reduce what you see as anxiety in a person you attracted to your group, in so far as the anxiety might be a reaction to earlier policies and in so far as honoring the request would do no harm? Does some other philosophy preclude you from honoring the request?
Do you think it would cause harm to honor a request that might reduce anxiety in a situation you were instrumental in creating?
Posted by bryte on August 7, 2014, at 0:03:40
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2014, at 19:32:00
> ... sometimes I want uncivil statements by me not to be repudiated.
>
> BobOnly sometimes? Do those times include times when you are acting in a leadership capacity?
When you are acting as a group leader, do you want others to guess when to renounce uncivil leadership on you part? Other than discerning a leader's capricious preference, how can group members know when to renounce uncivil leadership?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 7, 2014, at 16:50:25
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2014, at 23:49:16
> > those that are victims of discrimination [are] hugely vulnerable to feeling the lash of discrimination and need to have greater safety for them than others as you state here that members are to be civil at all times.
>
> I agree, those who have been victims can be more vulnerable, and safety can be a greater concern of theirs.
>
> > If you do not want the poster of defamation to feel bad by sanctioning the statement you could post that the statement is uncivil and do nothing else. It is the defamation of Jews and myself here that I want repudiated by you and you can do what you want with the poster of such.
>
> That's a good point, there's a difference between the post and the poster.
>
> > For a lawyer to argue to the judge of his convicted client that he should not have to go to prison because the judge would not want to be in prison and invoke the Golden Rule could be thought by a subset of readers as a perversion of the morality that the rule comes from.
>
> I agree, but what if the lawyer simply asked for leniency, and the judge felt they would want to be dealt with leniently themselves?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung
You wrote[...I agree...] and then you wrote [...What if...?]
What if you posted to the defamation and antisemitism that you allow here something like:
A. Readers please disregard what the statement could purport for our posting policies are that you are not to post what could lead someone to feel put down or accused or to post anything that could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
B. Readers please be advised that I am allowing defamation to be posted toward Lou and also I am allowing statements that could put down Jews and could also arouse hatred toward Jews. That could lead you to think that I do not provide equal protection to Lou here. You are right.
C. something else
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 7, 2014, at 23:15:46
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by bryte on August 7, 2014, at 0:03:40
> Do you think it would cause harm to honor a request that might reduce anxiety in a situation you were instrumental in creating?
Yes, that's a lot of what Lou and I have been discussing. For example:
The poster could feel like I'm throwing a stone at them.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068154.htmlIntervening more = trusting the community less.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069146.htmlRemoving the trigger could reinforce the wish to have triggers removed, which isn't always an option.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069148.html> > ... sometimes I want uncivil statements by me not to be repudiated.
>
> Only sometimes? Do those times include times when you are acting in a leadership capacity?Yes, only sometimes. (I was imagining being a member.)
> When you are acting as a group leader, do you want others to guess when to renounce uncivil leadership on you part? Other than discerning a leader's capricious preference, how can group members know when to renounce uncivil leadership?
That's a good question, when would you renounce what you saw as capricious, uncivil leadership, and when wouldn't you?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2014, at 1:40:08
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-14th » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 7, 2014, at 16:50:25
> What if you posted ... something like:
D. What if I watched the match to see if it sputtered out or started a fire?
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 8, 2014, at 17:50:13
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2014, at 23:56:51
> > You say that it is your intent to protect members, including myself, by applying your remedy to sanction statements that could put down or accuse another. But it is also then implying that if you use your option to not respond to me, that you will then not use your remedy to protect me from the stone-throwers here.
>
> 1. I do sometimes use my remedy to protect you. Most recently:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1062264.html
>
> 2. It's tricky (requires skill, knack, or caution) because if I apply my remedy, the poster could feel like I'm throwing a stone at them.
>
> 3. It fits with that policy I like:
>
> > > See everything; turn a blind eye to much; correct a little.
>
> Bob
Mr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...if I apply my remedy the poster could feel that I am throwing a stone at them...].
Your statement is a reply to my request to you that as I read your reply to me,if you use your remedy to sanction defamation and anti-Semitism or other statements that could lead one to feel put down or accused, myself and others could be protected from the harm that could come from being a victim of defamation and anti-Semitism that could lead me to feel put down or accused. But it could follow that if you do not use your remedy, then one would not be protected from the harm that could come from being a victim of defamation. You go on to say that if you do apply your remedy, then the poster could feel like you are throwing a stone at them. And then you cite that it fits a policy of turning a blind eye to much.
There could be a subset of reasonable readers that could think that what you are saying here is that you could leave defamation unsanctioned if you think that the poster could think that you were throwing a stone at them. Those readers could think that is a pretext to leave defamation and anti-Semitism unsanctioned as directed toward me and Jews. They could have a rational basis to think that because you have posted that you do not see {feeling} as justifying incivility.
[ admin 1067013 ]
These readers could also know that you have posted that members are to be civil at all times, not just some times and you TOS/FAQ states that you do enforce your rules. These readers could think that your reply here is a pretext because the site is for support and The Golden Rule is implemented in what support is. For those ignorant of Judaism, they could have a false conception of what the Golden Rule is. But those that understand the Judaism understanding of the rule, they could think that what you have written here that you say if you sanction a post the poster could think that you are throwing a stone at them so you turn a blind eye to it, to be a perversion of the mission of this site. For the facts speak for themselves. It is plainly visible that anti-Semitic statements are allowed to stand but vulgar words are not. That shows that you did not consider to leave the vulgar word unsanctioned on the basis that you thought the poster could feel that you were throwing a stone at them.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 8, 2014, at 21:45:58
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2014, at 1:40:08
> > What if you posted ... something like:
>
> D. What if I watched the match to see if it sputtered out or started a fire?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
The fire of hate is not contained in your site because it is public. What is seen here can be carried way beyond the confines of this site for it is not a closed site for only the members.
This means that if the defamation toward Jews and me and others is not sanctioned here by you, readers could think that you and your deputies of record are validating the defamation. And some could think that you are creating and developing the defamation. They could have a rational basis to think that by the nature of your TOS/FAQ and that you say that being supportive takes precedence and to be civil at all times and for myself, that I know of no valid reason to justify incivility here in the form of defamation because your rule is to not post what could lead one to feel put down or accused..
Lou Pilder
Posted by Bryte on August 9, 2014, at 13:30:32
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 7, 2014, at 23:15:46
> The poster could feel like I'm throwing a stone at them.
Do you select whom you engage in ways that could lead that person to feel you are throwing a stone at them?
> Intervening more = trusting the community less.
Are gross measurements of more or less the only factor, or do when and where inform decisions? Could you objectively articulate to a professional peer when and where you intervene more or less?
> Removing the trigger could reinforce the wish to have triggers removed, which isn't always an option.
Do you have any objective measure of that possibility, and a consistent policy for balancing the risk of reinforcement against the advantage of removing a trigger to which you exposed an invitee?
Posted by 10derheart on August 9, 2014, at 14:21:33
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 9, 2014, at 13:30:32
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2014, at 2:03:59
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-creat/dev » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 8, 2014, at 21:45:58
> Those readers could think that is a pretext to leave defamation and anti-Semitism unsanctioned as directed toward me and Jews.
That's true, a subset of readers could think that.
> It is plainly visible that anti-Semitic statements are allowed to stand but vulgar words are not.
I don't sanction all vulgar words, either.
> > What if I watched the match to see if it sputtered out or started a fire?
>
> The fire of hate is not contained in your site because it is public. What is seen here can be carried way beyond the confines of this site for it is not a closed site for only the members.That's true. But what I see here isn't the fire of hate, it's the balm of support. So that's what's more likely to spread from here.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2014, at 2:16:51
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 9, 2014, at 13:30:32
> > The poster could feel like I'm throwing a stone at them.
>
> Do you select whom you engage in ways that could lead that person to feel you are throwing a stone at them?Yes, I select whom I sanction.
> > Intervening more = trusting the community less.
>
> Are gross measurements of more or less the only factor, or do when and where inform decisions? Could you objectively articulate to a professional peer when and where you intervene more or less?I'm not sure what you mean by "objectively".
> > Removing the trigger could reinforce the wish to have triggers removed, which isn't always an option.
>
> Do you have any objective measure of that possibility, and a consistent policy for balancing the risk of reinforcement against the advantage of removing a trigger to which you exposed an invitee?No, I don't have a measure of that possibility. Yes, my policy is to do my best to be fair and to do what I think will be good for this community as a whole.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2014, at 9:30:42
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2014, at 2:03:59
> > Those readers could think that is a pretext to leave defamation and anti-Semitism unsanctioned as directed toward me and Jews.
>
> That's true, a subset of readers could think that.
>
> > It is plainly visible that anti-Semitic statements are allowed to stand but vulgar words are not.
>
> I don't sanction all vulgar words, either.
>
> > > What if I watched the match to see if it sputtered out or started a fire?
> >
> > The fire of hate is not contained in your site because it is public. What is seen here can be carried way beyond the confines of this site for it is not a closed site for only the members.
>
> That's true. But what I see here isn't the fire of hate, it's the balm of support. So that's what's more likely to spread from here.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...it is true that you say that the fire of hate is not contained here and can spread beyond the confines of this site...]
The truth of that could result in tragic consequences to Jews in other communities, for this site could be read by people all over the world. And there could be readers that take you at your word in your TOS/FAQ that this site is for support and education and that you use the Golden Rules in your TOS here. And more than that, you also say that you use fairness in the enforcement of your rules and in the use of the Golden Rule.
But do the facts support your claim to be fair? As long as you refuse to honor my requests to you to act on my outstanding notifications to you, a subset of readers could think that is false. This is supported by the fact that fairness in those readers minds could mean equality in the protection offered by your enforcement policy of your rules. The concept of equal protection of the laws is the core of fairness in the U.S. constitution and other countries that used the U.S. Constitution as a basis for constructing theirs.. The use of selective enforcement, which could be deemed discrimination, could lead to two standards in a community so that one class of people are protected by the laws, and another class of people are not. This is well-known historically as a part of European fascism that resulted in over one hundred million deaths and counting to this day as new mass-graves are unearthed throughout Europe. The use of selective enforcement in the minds of some readers is considered by them to be a crime against humanity and is not fair.
A ubset of readers could think that it is not fair to Jews for you to leave anti-Semitic statements un repudiated where they are originally posted and a subset of readers could see that it is plainly visible that you have not responded to my requests to act on those statements. It is not fair because you say that you will act on notifications except for some f mine. That could lead a subset of readers to think that your policy is not fair, for I am treated unequally and denied the protection of your rules.
The fact that you prohibit me from posting the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me while you will not post a repudiation to the foundation of hatred toward the Jews posted here in their originality, could lead a subset of readers to think that your policy is against the Jews, which is a definition of anti-Semitism, which could lead those readers to think that this is an anti-Semitic site and unfair on its face. And that there are also allowed to go un repudiated by you where defamatory posts are originally posted toward me, could lead a subset of readers to think that you are creating and developing defamation toward me which can cause harm to me as anyone else that is a victim of discrimination and defamation.
Your claim that you see the balm of support here can be considered by a subset of readers as what is known as a self-serving testimonial that educated readers could see as a transparent attempt to blow your own horn and pat yourself on the back. The support that those readers could see is what is plainly visible to them. And as long as they see years of outstanding notifications from me to you, they could see that what you call being fair is not consistent with community standards of fairness as exemplified by the U.S. constitution that demands equal protection of the laws and freedom of religion.
A subset of readers could consider that where religious freedom is denied, there can become stigmatization to those like myself here that is not a balm of support, but an unsound mental-health practice that is not supportive of the Golden Rule or fairness. The fruits of your use of treating me differently by leaving those notifications of mine outstanding, will be used to judge you as to if or if not this site has a balm of support for the Golden Rule and fairness. For by your fruits shall men know you.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2014, at 13:49:42
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-kstinphyr » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2014, at 9:30:42
> > > Those readers could think that is a pretext to leave defamation and anti-Semitism unsanctioned as directed toward me and Jews.
> >
> > That's true, a subset of readers could think that.
> >
> > > It is plainly visible that anti-Semitic statements are allowed to stand but vulgar words are not.
> >
> > I don't sanction all vulgar words, either.
> >
> > > > What if I watched the match to see if it sputtered out or started a fire?
> > >
> > > The fire of hate is not contained in your site because it is public. What is seen here can be carried way beyond the confines of this site for it is not a closed site for only the members.
> >
> > That's true. But what I see here isn't the fire of hate, it's the balm of support. So that's what's more likely to spread from here.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote,[...it is true that you say that the fire of hate is not contained here and can spread beyond the confines of this site...]
> The truth of that could result in tragic consequences to Jews in other communities, for this site could be read by people all over the world. And there could be readers that take you at your word in your TOS/FAQ that this site is for support and education and that you use the Golden Rules in your TOS here. And more than that, you also say that you use fairness in the enforcement of your rules and in the use of the Golden Rule.
> But do the facts support your claim to be fair? As long as you refuse to honor my requests to you to act on my outstanding notifications to you, a subset of readers could think that is false. This is supported by the fact that fairness in those readers minds could mean equality in the protection offered by your enforcement policy of your rules. The concept of equal protection of the laws is the core of fairness in the U.S. constitution and other countries that used the U.S. Constitution as a basis for constructing theirs.. The use of selective enforcement, which could be deemed discrimination, could lead to two standards in a community so that one class of people are protected by the laws, and another class of people are not. This is well-known historically as a part of European fascism that resulted in over one hundred million deaths and counting to this day as new mass-graves are unearthed throughout Europe. The use of selective enforcement in the minds of some readers is considered by them to be a crime against humanity and is not fair.
> A ubset of readers could think that it is not fair to Jews for you to leave anti-Semitic statements un repudiated where they are originally posted and a subset of readers could see that it is plainly visible that you have not responded to my requests to act on those statements. It is not fair because you say that you will act on notifications except for some f mine. That could lead a subset of readers to think that your policy is not fair, for I am treated unequally and denied the protection of your rules.
> The fact that you prohibit me from posting the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me while you will not post a repudiation to the foundation of hatred toward the Jews posted here in their originality, could lead a subset of readers to think that your policy is against the Jews, which is a definition of anti-Semitism, which could lead those readers to think that this is an anti-Semitic site and unfair on its face. And that there are also allowed to go un repudiated by you where defamatory posts are originally posted toward me, could lead a subset of readers to think that you are creating and developing defamation toward me which can cause harm to me as anyone else that is a victim of discrimination and defamation.
> Your claim that you see the balm of support here can be considered by a subset of readers as what is known as a self-serving testimonial that educated readers could see as a transparent attempt to blow your own horn and pat yourself on the back. The support that those readers could see is what is plainly visible to them. And as long as they see years of outstanding notifications from me to you, they could see that what you call being fair is not consistent with community standards of fairness as exemplified by the U.S. constitution that demands equal protection of the laws and freedom of religion.
> A subset of readers could consider that where religious freedom is denied, there can become stigmatization to those like myself here that is not a balm of support, but an unsound mental-health practice that is not supportive of the Golden Rule or fairness. The fruits of your use of treating me differently by leaving those notifications of mine outstanding, will be used to judge you as to if or if not this site has a balm of support for the Golden Rule and fairness. For by your fruits shall men know you.
> Lou Pilder
>Mr. Hsiung
You wrote[...I don't sanction all vulgar words, either...].
A subset of readers could think that is not true. They could have a rational basis to think that because of what is visible in that they could not see any vulgar words being allowed to stand because I do not see any vulgar words being allowed to stand by you.
I would like for you to justify your posting of this by posting here the URL of the posts that have vulgar words un sanctioned. I guess that there could be a few on the basis of human error, but not like the deliberate use of discrimination towards me by leaving anti-Semitism and defamation toward me un repudiated by you where they are originally posted as part of your policy of acting on notifications except for some of mine. There are years of those and I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to remain unsanctioned.
I have asked for you to post here what was revised in your FAQ and there is no reply from you. No reply can be interpreted by a subset of readers as constituting {evasion} by you. That is not a balm to those that want for you to disclose what could cause harm to those that are uninformed by you of changes here. The failure to disclose can be thought by a subset of readers as creating and developing unsound mental-health practices that could harm readers here. They have a rational basis for thinking that because a failure to disclose could mislead readers and act on what could be harmful to them since there could be a change that is kept from them in this site which is for support and education per the Golden Rule. The Golden rule in my faith considers failure to disclose to constitute deceit and foster what is known as {ex post facto} which could IMHO lead to deaths here and life-ruining conditions by the nature that those readers could have taken you at your word and trusted you, and the revision could show that you changed something but will not tell what the change is. Then those readers could feel betrayed as seeing that your word was changed without them being allowed to know why since there is a failure to disclose.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Bryte on August 11, 2014, at 22:16:39
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2014, at 2:16:51
> I'm not sure what you mean by "objectively".
To do something objectively means to measure against an objective standard rather than to measure against personal feelings or one's own opinions. In a professional context, objective standards represent the collective opinions of trained and experience peers, contrary to capricious decisions based on self-styled fiat...
> my best to be fair and to do what I think will be good ...
Do you maintain professional liability insurance against claims of harm that might result from testing the merits of an inner sense of fairness and good on human subjects outside the purview of an institutional review board?
Do you think your active role as an administrator, and claimed right to do as you want negates protection DMCA affords to moderators on other social media sites who don't make a practice of calling at-risk invitees uncivil, but simply remove content they think might not contribute to the community purpose?
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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