![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 92 to 116 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
In reply to Irony, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 9:48:09
> Several times, I believe I am hearing you say that it is tough to keep going as a constant administrator of this site. What could we do together to help make it interesting and rewarding for you, as well as safe and welcoming for us so that more of us will post in a personal and trusting manner the way we used to?
>
> TwinleafWhat makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
I believe I'm hearing posters say it's tough to keep going with Lou around. I wonder what would make this rewarding for them.
--
> i don't know what a powerplay is.
>
> alexandra_k> I don't think anyone is asking Dr. Bob to waste hours of his precious time in involvement in his own website. ... it wouldn't take him all that much time.
>
> It's just dandy to worry about our own behavior. But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
>
> People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest.
>
> Dinah> The really sad part of this is that most of the people I see recently saying things that might be hurtful to Lou, myself included, don't want to hurt Lou at all. ... But things like including "infanticide" in the subject line, and other incidents of exaggeration, over-generalization, and accusation, are things that ought to be addressed by Bob
>
> DinahThe power play idea is that when one side outnumbers the other, it tends to score more goals.
Posters can focus on:
1. posters who could use support
2. Lou
3. meWhich is more likely to be effective? Rewarding?
I understand feeling frustrated, or resentful, or even angry, at what causes hurt.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:01:04
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
> What makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
So you find it rewarding that a poster here and there are strong enough to continue posting in the face of the pain they receive at your website? Well...
I don't see it as a "win" for the website though, other than of course the site is better off than if the poster left. It's more a "win" for the poster. What did you have to do with it? Do you feel pride in it?
> I believe I'm hearing posters say it's tough to keep going with Lou around. I wonder what would make this rewarding for them.
>I believe I hear you saying they are going to have to continue to see Lou continue posting as he is currently posting because you have no intention of enforcing rules on accusations and exaggerations and overgeneralizations? That they're going to have to learn to find intrinsic rewards in continuing to battle Lou? Thank you for making that clear. That makes me feel sad.
> Posters can focus on:
>
> 1. posters who could use support
> 2. Lou
> 3. me
>
> Which is more likely to be effective? Rewarding?Apparently the latter two are totally ineffective. I generally have been choosing
4.) things in life other than Babble. I'm rather proud of my strength in being able to do that more and more. You are free to take pride in that if you wish, as you certainly have played a role in giving me that strength. I spent nearly a month without looking at the site!! Congratulations on generating that strength in me.
> I understand feeling frustrated, or resentful, or even angry, at what causes hurt.
>
> BobWhy resentful? Frustrated and angry I understand.
Posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
You know what, Dr. Bob?
I'd have never stayed around - or even chanced a first post - with a Babble that looks as it now does. So instead of being angry with you for not providing a website I'd like to be at now, I should thank you for providing a website I did want to be at for all those years.
Babble meant a lot to me, and I very much appreciated the safe environment to talk about difficult topics.
It may never be that Babble again, but I do have my memories. Thank you.
Posted by Twinleaf on July 5, 2013, at 17:25:48
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
I also feel a deep appreciation for Babble as it used to be. I think it played a limited but very positive role in my recovery from depression, both by providing good ideas of medications to try, and, even more, by providing a warm and empathic community to share experiences with.
I think Scott is right in saying that we felt safe in Babble, although some of us felt threatened and hurt by the extent of the PBCs and blocks given for very small, often unclear infractions. I think I experienced an unjust degree of such punishment to an extraordinary degree, but it did not prevent me from feeling a sense of community here. What did eventually damage that sense of trust and community was that the board became unmoderated. This has resulted in a loss of emotional safety, and also just a simple loss of enough posters to form an interesting community. Dinah is describing a situation where she feels that Babble is no longer supporting her growth towards mental health; I feel exactly the same.
If the positive aspects of Babble aren't restored, posters are simply not going to want to be a part of it. Old posters are going to continue to disappear, and new ones are not going to find it worthwhile to join.
Since you once had a vital community, why not restore some of the things that made it work? PBCs can be given at times (not every time), and for as many times as you want. They don't have to be immediately followed by blocks, although you may want to give a short block occasionally. I would strongly suggest not doubling blocks. Providing this minimal degree of oversight should not take too much time. There seems to be so much extreme, "either -or", black and white thinking about this entire issue. It would be so much better to institute a minimal, flexible version of the administrative policies which made Babble a success in the past.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2013, at 19:53:24
In reply to Re: resentment » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:20:06
> I don't usually feel resentment. But I think I'm feeling it right now.
hmm. i guess i figured i've been feeling a lot of it over the last couple years. i don't much like it. it seems close to bitterness, to me, and i'd rather not be a person who feels a lot of bitterness :-(
i read that remorse is when resentment is felt towards oneself. really? i would never have thought that... i thought remorse was about feeling sorry for whatever it is one thinks one should feel sorry about...
i'm talking about irl, though, not the boards. i don't think i feel resentment here.
> But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
it comes down to our needing to make a judgment:
- when should we alter the individual's behavior
- when should we alter society's response to ite.g., homosexuality. used to be something that we thought best to treat. because we disapprove of it, you see. now we think that the behavior actually isn't problematic at all, rather we need to change society. if someone is upset about homosexual behavior the appropriate intervention is not to alter the homosexual behavior it is to alter the emotional response to it.
and psychiatry is a form of social control... like law.
ahaha.
> People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest. And when people see newcomers having panic attacks over Lou's posts, people want to see that stopped.
yes. it would be nice if people didn't have panic attacks.
> I'm pleased to see that you are now solidly behind Bob. I don't swing to such extremes. I never was against him, and I'm also not fervently pro-Bob to such a degree that I'll support his behavior when I think it is wrong.aw, hey, neither am i. i will speak up when i think he does wrong. surely you know that about me? it is just that you and i often have a different perspective on when he is right and when he is wrong. between the both of us maybe he gets just the right amount of support / critique.
?
and sometimes we agree... i think... we have...
and sometimes (but you really do need to bang on) you open up different ways of viewing things for me, and i think i come to a fuller understanding... even though we might not necessarily agree... my world feels enriched for it, anyway...
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2013, at 20:00:23
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
> ZZDuck,
What you wrote is plainly visible.
> And here we have the dynamics of scapegoating that may be unbeknownst to some.
Psychologists say that scapegoating is attributing blame to others. but it is much more than that. Scapegoaters move blame and responsibility away from themselves and toward a target person or group.The scapegoaters project their hostility via accusations, blame and criticism of the one they are targeting as a scapegoat.
In scapegoating, feelings of guilt, aggression and blame and suffering are transferred away from a person or group so as to fulfill an unconscious drive to resolve or avoid such bad feelings. This is done by the displacement of responsibility and blame to another who serves as a target for blame both for the scapegoaters and his/her supporters. The scapegoter's target experiences exclusion, ostracism or even expulsion. [Karpman 1968].
But there is much more to this because of the devastating consequences that could come back to the scapegoater as history records, such as suicide or held culpable for crimes committed toward the one that they use as a scapegoat.
Lou
>
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2013, at 20:45:27
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
What used to be is gone. My time is spent elsewhere. I get nothing but a googlebar here for ebay posting. Used to be supportive can't see that I is for the most part anymore. But what do I know as told all the time from a blocked poster that I'm hated here. Phillipa
Posted by Willful on July 5, 2013, at 23:26:06
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
I completely disagree with your assessment.
It's certainly not something self-evident, or something that could be inferred simply from the numbers. You really would need to consider carefully what's at stake-- which I have no idea whether you have-- I"d be interested in hearing your ideas rather than merely a conclusory opinion.
It's not necessarily the case that if a lot of people disagree with or object to another person's posts--or for that matter dislike another person, or wish not to associate with him or her (hypothetically that is-- I'm not referring to this case), that that person is being scapegoated.
Sometimes there's a legitimate reason for people's reactions, even if many people, perhaps even eventually as a group, take issue with someone else's ideas or actions.
Posted by Dinah on July 6, 2013, at 12:16:18
In reply to Re: resentment, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2013, at 19:53:24
> and sometimes we agree... i think... we have...
>
> and sometimes (but you really do need to bang on) you open up different ways of viewing things for me, and i think i come to a fuller understanding... even though we might not necessarily agree... my world feels enriched for it, anyway...Thanks, Alex. I feel that way too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2013, at 20:45:27
> > What makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
>
> So you find it rewarding that a poster here and there are strong enough to continue posting in the face of the pain they receive at your website? Well...
>
> I don't see it as a "win" for the website though, other than of course the site is better off than if the poster left. It's more a "win" for the poster. What did you have to do with it? Do you feel pride in it?I thought she felt strong enough not just to continue posting here, but to fight for her daughter in real life. Yes, I find that rewarding. OK, it's primarily a win for her, but a win for a member of this community is also a win for this community. I take some pride in it because I moderate this site. Community members could take pride in it because they continually gave her inspiration.
> I believe I hear you saying [posters] are going to have to continue to see Lou continue posting ... That they're going to have to learn to find intrinsic rewards in continuing to battle Lou? Thank you for making that clear. That makes me feel sad.
Would you call the above "intrinsic"? I do feel it's sad to be powerless to effect the changes one wishes to see. Would you agree? I try to learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
> I generally have been choosing
>
> 4.) things in life other than Babble. I'm rather proud of my strength in being able to do that more and more. You are free to take pride in that if you wish, as you certainly have played a role in giving me that strength. I spent nearly a month without looking at the site!! Congratulations on generating that strength in me.
>
> DinahThanks, I do take some pride in that, too. As you're well aware, I chose 4.) for a time myself.
--
> I also feel a deep appreciation for Babble as it used to be. I think it played a limited but very positive role in my recovery from depression, both by providing good ideas of medications to try, and, even more, by providing a warm and empathic community to share experiences with.
>
> What did eventually damage that sense of trust and community was that the board became unmoderated.
>
> If the positive aspects of Babble aren't restored, posters are simply not going to want to be a part of it. Old posters are going to continue to disappear, and new ones are not going to find it worthwhile to join.
>
> It would be so much better to institute a minimal, flexible version of the administrative policies which made Babble a success in the past.
>
> TwinleafThanks, I'll try to remember that attachment to the old Babble can reflect appreciation for it.
Unfortunately, that wasn't a sustainable model. Not for me or for any of the deputies. So change is necessary.
In fact, what you have before you now is a minimal, flexible version of those administrative policies. With the option of a less minimal and flexible version. But for some, neither of those models will be just right.
Posters have always come and gone. A new model may not prevail by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents eventually go, and a new generation "grows up" that is familiar with it.
--
> what do I know as told all the time from a blocked poster that I'm hated here.
>
> Phillipa1. Do you like being told that?
2. How do you know they hate you?Can you see where I'm going?
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 17:39:44
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
I am personally very appreciative that you have begun moderating a bit once again. I realize that it is impossible to get it right in everyone's eyes all the time, but I do appreciate the effort. Occasional might be the way to go, because I do think people remember when they have been given a PBC.
On another thread, you asked if we could commit to posting more on Psychology and Social if you commit to more moderating. I think that's very fair. It is a bit hard to post personal or therapy-related messages on Psychology if they just end up unaknowledged and sitting there all by themselves, but I will do my best. My therapy is now much less intensive than it once was, but I am willing to try if, say, Dinah would do it a bit also!
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:09:09
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
> I thought she felt strong enough not just to continue posting here, but to fight for her daughter in real life. Yes, I find that rewarding. OK, it's primarily a win for her, but a win for a member of this community is also a win for this community. I take some pride in it because I moderate this site. Community members could take pride in it because they continually gave her inspiration.
And do you take responsibility when people do leave? When the pain here is too great, or the rewards not high enough to put up with the costs? Do you see that as a loss? Do you *feel* that loss? How many people do you think have left Babble over what's all over the current pages?
> Would you call the above "intrinsic"? I do feel it's sad to be powerless to effect the changes one wishes to see. Would you agree? I try to learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
I *hate* being powerless when I see people are being hurt. I am not really strong enough to cope other than by disengaging. It just hurts too much.
> Thanks, I do take some pride in that, too. As you're well aware, I chose 4.) for a time myself.You can be duly thankful that our Sunday School lesson today was on generosity, and after speaking up firmly for the importance of generosity of spirit, it gave me a bit of a sense of humor about my participation recently on Babble. So I'll take that in the most generous spirit instead of interpreting it in my usual way of "Don't let the door hit you on your way out." I'm glad you've quit doing 4 quite so much. Babble needs you.
> In fact, what you have before you now is a minimal, flexible version of those administrative policies. With the option of a less minimal and flexible version. But for some, neither of those models will be just right.
>
> Posters have always come and gone. A new model may not prevail by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents eventually go, and a new generation "grows up" that is familiar with it.I've always said that Babble couldn't be all things to all people. That you were *always* making choices about which type of people Babble would be for. I appreciated that in the wild west of the internet, Babble was a place for those who did value civility, who did look for someplace relatively safe.
Perhaps part of what I feel now is anger and hurt that you've made the choice to bring Babble in a new direction and appeal to a different group of posters. As if the ones who wish for civility and safety aren't the ones you're choosing now. Babble used to be welcoming, and is no longer.
I guess new posters would be your target audience, since old posters who disliked the old Babble will likely still remember it, and old posters who liked the old Babble for what it was aren't likely to like it now. So many of the people I care about are gone and aren't likely to return.
And you keep telling me not to let the door hit my *ss on the way out.
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:13:03
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 17:39:44
Well, it's true that I would be reluctant to post anything personal at the moment on Babble. But I often overcame that reluctance at times of even greater insecurity. Part of my problem is that my therapy is in a pretty good place, I've learned the golden lesson of communicating with my therapist, and, well....
In bringing my issues with my therapist to Babble more openly than my positives with my therapist, I found myself in the position of people disapproving of him - which wasn't particularly fair to him.
I can try, but I think it's easier for me to respond than to post.
And so many people are gone....
Posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 21:03:20
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:13:03
Yeah, a lot of great people are gone...I've been around long enough to know that your therapist is great, and a wonderful match for you (even when you go through tough times with him). You seem a lot stronger than when we first came here. I do know that he did get criticized from time to time, though...
Posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2013, at 21:06:44
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
Dr Bob I remember if a person posted "think" instead of "feel" it was cause for a warning or a block. Did or does that mean a person isn't allowed to think only feel? Cause the answer to your question to me is I think it's unfair as I did nothing but try. How do I feel? I used to feel hurt but no longer cause I can't change what some decided to think & feel. If I go by what's written about me I'd say it's true of the old group. The new group seems to me to be more understanding and doesn't need a scapegoat. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 23:00:15
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dinah, posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 21:03:20
Thank you for that. :)
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2013, at 7:33:43
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
> Friends,
It is written above that ZZDucke sees that it is plainly visible that I am being used as a scapegoat. But it is much more than what you see here. This situation could mark the difference between you killing yourself and/or others arising out of what scapegoating can do to you if you are involved in it. I come here to warn you of what could cause you to go into a vortex of depression and suicidal thinking. This is because in this community, people take mind-altering drugs that can INCREASE suicidal thinking. And they take multiple mind-altering drugs that can increase suicidal thinking exponentially.
When one is involved in scapegoating, there are many psychological dynamics that are set into motion that could draw the scapegoater down into depression and suicide. I have come here to save lives and it has been revealed to me the dynamics that are promoted here that ZZDucke can see also. But what are these things that can be seen that ZZDucke writes as being obvious?
I am prohibited here from posting what IMHHHO could erase any hatred that you may harbor so that you could be free from the captivity of depression and addiction due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr. Hsiung. You may already know that I have posted what hate could cause and Mr Hsiung wrote that he does not disagree with what I wrote about that. But Mr Hsiung also wrote that it may be good for the community to see my posts not responded to. If it *may* be good, then it also may be bad. You see, psychologists agree with me concerning scapegoating. Here is a video that explains what scapegoating can do to you if you are in concert with those using me, or anyone else, as a scapegoat.
Lou. To see this video, go to Google and type in:
[ youtube, _RhGcK2M16g ]
there is an underscore in front of the "R"
>
>
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2013, at 21:06:44
> I am personally very appreciative that you have begun moderating a bit once again. I realize that it is impossible to get it right in everyone's eyes all the time, but I do appreciate the effort. Occasional might be the way to go, because I do think people remember when they have been given a PBC.
>
> On another thread, you asked if we could commit to posting more on Psychology and Social if you commit to more moderating. I think that's very fair. It is a bit hard to post personal or therapy-related messages on Psychology if they just end up unaknowledged and sitting there all by themselves, but I will do my best. My therapy is now much less intensive than it once was, but I am willing to try if, say, Dinah would do it a bit also!
>
> TwinleafThanks! I know it can be hard to post and not get any replies. One thing posters can do if they don't feel up to starting a thread is to make sure posts by others aren't unacknowledged.
--
> And do you take responsibility when people do leave? When the pain here is too great, or the rewards not high enough to put up with the costs? Do you see that as a loss? Do you *feel* that loss?
>
> I've always said that Babble couldn't be all things to all people. That you were *always* making choices about which type of people Babble would be for. I appreciated that in the wild west of the internet, Babble was a place for those who did value civility, who did look for someplace relatively safe.
>
> Perhaps part of what I feel now is anger and hurt that you've made the choice to bring Babble in a new direction and appeal to a different group of posters. As if the ones who wish for civility and safety aren't the ones you're choosing now. Babble used to be welcoming, and is no longer.
>
> DinahI agree, Babble can't be all things to all people. I could focus on the people it helps and feel good, or on the people it doesn't and feel bad. I'd rather feel good. Or, it's inevitable that people aren't helped, so if that happens, I may allow myself not to feel bad, but it's not inevitable that people are helped, so when that happens, I may allow myself to feel good.
If a model is unsustainable, is change a choice? Also, maybe what was needed in the Wild West isn't what's needed in the suburbs.
I don't want to leave old posters behind. I want them to join me in moving forward.
--
> the answer to your question to me is I think it's unfair as I did nothing but try. How do I feel? I used to feel hurt but no longer cause I can't change what some decided to think & feel. If I go by what's written about me ...
>
> PhillipaWhat I was thinking was, if you feel hurt reading what others write, could you stop reading? You can't change what they think or feel or write, but you can change what you read (and maybe think and feel).
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
I guess that was a sustainable stance for them.
Well, to paraphrase the best of my pdocs, choosing to moderate has consequences and choosing not to moderate has consequences. You've chosen which consequences you prefer.
Again, Dr. Bob, thanks for the years you did moderate.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 9:30:19
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
> You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
Is that how you see what happened with laurah? She didn't let it bother her, or didn't show that it bothered her?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
> What I was thinking was, if you feel hurt reading what others write, could you stop reading? You can't change what they think or feel or write, but you can change what you read (and maybe think and feel).
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:16:46
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
> You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
Sometimes authority figures can't be depended upon. Could anybody else have helped?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 18:45:13
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:16:46
> Sometimes authority figures can't be depended upon. Could anybody else have helped?
>
> BobI had figured that out myself...
In this situation, the power of others is limited.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 8:10:15
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 18:45:13
> > Could anybody else have helped?
>
> In this situation, the power of others is limited.True. But still they can sometimes help.
Bob
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