![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 19:59:06
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 13:29:52
> Hmm...
>
> You may well be right that chronic stress causes depression.Perhaps in some cases.
> However I think I have produced compelling evidence that inflammation causes depression.
Perhaps in some cases.
> And back to the topic of this thread I believe that I have presented strong evidence that a high fat diet causes inflammation and this inflammation causes depression.
Perhaps in some cases.
As you have noted:
> "There are probably lots of things that can cause depression. After all, depression is only a collection of symptoms"
I don't dispute here that there are depressions that are the result of inflammation. However, I have a problem with any statement that suggests that all depressions are caused by inflammation.
A sick organ tells the immune system to come to the rescue (via cytokines, etc.). Why would the brain be such an exception? Only here, the sickness is MDD or BD.
I am not yet compelled by the work of the authors you have so far presented. Perhaps I will change my mind, but I would really need to see a diagram or model of a hypothetical cascade of biological events from start to finish that begins with inflammation and leads to MDD or BD.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 20:39:28
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 21, 2012, at 19:13:59
> Omega 3 fatty acids are reputed to help depression and reduce inflamation - a good reason to add a decent dose of fish oil to ones intake of pills
It is hard to argue against that. However, Carlson's fish oil makes me feel decidedly worse.
I think there might be something pharmacological going on with high-dose omega-3 whereby depression is ameliorated by mechanisms more immediate to the site of mood dysregulation than is the reduction of brain inflammation. Some people actually become manic immediately after taking their first dose of fish oil. To me, that seems far to quick to be explained by a reduction in inflammation. Of course, one (me) could argue that O3FA might facilitate a reduction in inflammation by removing the stress that produces it. That stress very well might be the depression itself.
O3FA > (membrane stability / CREB / BDNF) > reduced depressive stress > reduced inflammation.
I guess arguments could be made either way.
Some people suggest that when there are multiple explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest one is probably the right one. I think that inflammation is an attractive explanation to account for depression for precisely this reason. There are times when it is attractive to me, too.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 21:18:49
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 20:39:28
Personally I think fish oil works for some people because it has an anti-inflammatory action. This is not just because I believe that inflammation causes depression. You see the main 'good' fatty acids in fish oil are DHA and EPA. Of the two, only EPA seems to be effective in reducing depression. I don't think it's a coincidence that of the two, EPA is also the only one that reduces inflammation.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 21, 2012, at 21:20:46
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 20:39:28
I agree SLS, there are a lot of ifs, buts and maybes in there
Posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 21:25:13
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 19:59:06
Actually, I am not saying that inflammation is the sole cause of depression. I have never said that. I know that some 'experts' believe that is the case, but I'm not saying that. All I'm saying that there is overwhelming evidence that inflammation can cause depression in susceptible people. The same goes for stress, high fat diets etc etc.
> > Hmm...
> >
> > You may well be right that chronic stress causes depression.
>
> Perhaps in some cases.
>
> > However I think I have produced compelling evidence that inflammation causes depression.
>
> Perhaps in some cases.
>
> > And back to the topic of this thread I believe that I have presented strong evidence that a high fat diet causes inflammation and this inflammation causes depression.
>
> Perhaps in some cases.
>
> As you have noted:
>
> > "There are probably lots of things that can cause depression. After all, depression is only a collection of symptoms"
>
> I don't dispute here that there are depressions that are the result of inflammation. However, I have a problem with any statement that suggests that all depressions are caused by inflammation.
>
> A sick organ tells the immune system to come to the rescue (via cytokines, etc.). Why would the brain be such an exception? Only here, the sickness is MDD or BD.
>
> I am not yet compelled by the work of the authors you have so far presented. Perhaps I will change my mind, but I would really need to see a diagram or model of a hypothetical cascade of biological events from start to finish that begins with inflammation and leads to MDD or BD.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 21:32:40
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 21, 2012, at 21:20:46
I advocate 1g EPA/day. Try to avoid too much DHA as they 'compete' with each other. The only successful trials involving fish oil for depression have involved at least 7:1 EPA to DHA. Some 'experts' advise taking up to 4g EPA or more, but in the only trial of various doses, the most effective was 1g.
Posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 23:35:21
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » jono_in_adelaide, posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 21:32:40
> I advocate 1g EPA/day. Try to avoid too much DHA as they 'compete' with each other. The only successful trials involving fish oil for depression have involved at least 7:1 EPA to DHA. Some 'experts' advise taking up to 4g EPA or more, but in the only trial of various doses, the most effective was 1g.
If I were to return to fish oil, I would take Omegabrite.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 1:16:11
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 21, 2012, at 21:18:49
> I don't think it's a coincidence that of the two, EPA is also the only one that reduces inflammation.
I agree with most of what you have to say.
To help bolster your argument, you might want to look into the association between BDNF and inflammation.
It is known that chronic stress is associated with lower BDNF levels, increased cortisol levels, and reductions in hippocampal volume. More recently, inflammation has been observed to be present under these conditions. I would like to see a proposed physiological mechanism that would explain how inflammation may decrease BDNF levels directly, and that this not be mediated through the actions of increased cortisol at the cellular level. It is important to determine the directionality of the associations between cortisol and inflammatory markers. Perhaps the chronic elevation of cortisol produces cortisol-resistance and thereby allows inflammation to occur.
It is possible that you are right about everything. Right now, I am a hard sell.
- Scott
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 22, 2012, at 1:16:21
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 23:35:21
I just take generic 1000mg fish oil capsules, 4 a day..... I take it for general health benifits, but if it helps my mental state as well, all the better
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 1:26:05
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 22, 2012, at 1:16:21
> I just take generic 1000mg fish oil capsules, 4 a day..... I take it for general health benifits, but if it helps my mental state as well, all the better
Do you have any ideas as to why some people feel worse when they take fish oil? For me, Carslson's makes me feel worse (bipolar depression). I tried it twice as a rechallenge just to be sure. Perhaps more interesting is why some people become activated or manic as an immediate reaction to the initial doses of fish oil. It is hard to believe that inflammation would be reduced so instantaneously as to allow some sort of rebound mania. Perhaps something more pharmacological than nutritional is going on.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 1:34:06
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 21, 2012, at 23:35:21
> > I advocate 1g EPA/day. Try to avoid too much DHA as they 'compete' with each other. The only successful trials involving fish oil for depression have involved at least 7:1 EPA to DHA. Some 'experts' advise taking up to 4g EPA or more, but in the only trial of various doses, the most effective was 1g.
>
> If I were to return to fish oil, I would take Omegabrite.
>
>
> - ScottThat's what I buy.
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 1:43:14
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 1:16:11
> It is possible that you are right about everything. Right now, I am a hard sell.
>
>
> - Scott
You are a hard sell! But it has been good to debate because it's forced me to update my own references. Cheers.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 22, 2012, at 2:03:04
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » jono_in_adelaide, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 1:26:05
No idea scott, but i suspect it must be somthing of a drug like reaction - i remember reading that evening primrose oil can increase or cause seizures in people prone to epilepsy, so I dont see why fish oil causing mania etc shoulsd be impossible
To be honest, fish oil hasnt done anything for my mood either way, I mainly take it for general nutritional support because I dont like fish and never eat it
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 7:39:03
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 1:43:14
>
> > It is possible that you are right about everything. Right now, I am a hard sell.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> You are a hard sell! But it has been good to debate because it's forced me to update my own references. Cheers.
Here is another VERY good study to add to your collection:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22197082
This is one that really makes me think...
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 22, 2012, at 10:27:01
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 7:39:03
Late to discussion but a compounding pharmacist told me it takes a month to develop some enzyme that allows the fish oil to work. Right or wrong have no idea. He himself takes two. Professional strength forget the brand ran out. Phillipa
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:28:16
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 7:39:03
>
> Here is another VERY good study to add to your collection:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22197082
>
> This is one that really makes me think...
>
>
> - ScottThanks for the link.
I think my own depression is caused at least in part by translocation of bacteria from the intestinal lumen into the bloodstream, activating CMI (TH1) and causing the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines (PIC), which cross the blood/brain barrier and have some effects on the brain causing depression.
My current strategy is to reduce the translocation of bacteria (low fat diet, prebiotics, probiotics) and take supplements like EPA fish oil and turmeric which reduce PICs.
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:41:05
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:28:16
In case you are interested, here is some research linking translocation of intestinal bacteria and depression.
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:43:57
In reply to Translocation of bacteria -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:41:05
Sorry wrong link. This is the correct one.
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 18:24:57
In reply to Re: Translocation of bacteria -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 14:43:57
Probiotics, which also seem to have anti-inflammatory effects, have had antidepressant and anxiolytic actions in animal studies. The human studies are very few and far between. From my own research, the most promising strain is Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (sold as Align).
Here are some quotes and sources:
However, there was a significant attenuation of IFN-gamma, TNF-alpha and IL-6 cytokines following mitogen stimulation (p<0.05) in probiotic-treated rats relative to controls.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18456279In a study announced on May 21, 2007, at the 38th annual Digestive Disease Week conference, a naturally occurring bacteria (Bifidobacterium infantis 35624) showed anti-inflammatory properties in a mouse model of arthritis.
This bacteria has previously been shown to modulate the inflammatory response in a clinical trial in irritable bowel syndrome. Data released from this study indicate that the probiotic may have anti-inflammatory action outside of the digestive tract.
In this study of rats given B. infantis, there was a reduction in pro-inflammatory cytokines.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18456279In this study, B. infantis lowered pro-inflammatory cytokines and protected rats from depression induced from maternal separation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20696216Other probiotic bacteria to show anti-inflammatory, antidepressant or anxiolytic action include Bifidobacterium longum and Lactobacillus rhamnosus.
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 22:08:22
In reply to B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 18:24:57
All of the studies you cited were performed by the same research team. I am surprised that they didn't extend this experiment beyond 14 days. Whereas probiotic treatment reduced inflammatory markers, it did NOT produce the behavioral effects that would have indicated an effective antidepressant treatment. Perhaps it would have had they continued the experiment. Perhaps not. In any event, I would interpret the results of this study as failing to support their hypothesis that probiotics produce antidepressant effects, and does not lend support to the notion that inflammation causes depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18456279
"Sprague-Dawley rats were treated for 14 days with B. infantis. Probiotic administration in naive rats had no effect on swim behaviours on day 3 or day 14 following the commencement of treatment."
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 22:08:22
I was wondering whether you would spot that. However there is a good explanation for the 'failure' of bifido treated rats in the swim test. This was a poorly designed trial because it didn't use 'depressed' rats, just normal rats. It was a bit like giving an antidepressant to normal people and seeing if they felt any less depressed.
I note that you conveniently ignored the rat trial that did use depressed rats and did produce a reversal of depressive behaviour.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20696216
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 23:34:42
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
> I was wondering whether you would spot that. However there is a good explanation for the 'failure' of bifido treated rats in the swim test. This was a poorly designed trial because it didn't use 'depressed' rats, just normal rats. It was a bit like giving an antidepressant to normal people and seeing if they felt any less depressed.
>
> I note that you conveniently ignoredIt wasn't an act of convenience. I just missed it. I'll check it out more closely.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 9:35:58
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
The rat maternal separation (MS) model of depression seems to be valid enough. So is the forced-swim test, though. I kind of like the ideal of MS, as it might more closely approximate childhood trauma and neglect; this being an to chronic psychosocial stress, and perhaps even developmental PTSD.
I guess we will just have to wait to see where this whole inflammation thing goes. There have been plenty of "false-starts" in the past towards the pursuit of a cure for depression. In the meantime, it might make sense to try a few anti-inflammatory treatments. The minocycline that I currently take demonstrates potent anti-inflammatory effects in the brain. However, it is not without potentially serious side effects. They occur infrequently, though. I imagine dietary supplementation with probiotics would be without such risks. It will be interesting to see what answers the field of neuropsychoimmunology provides in the future.
What is your current mood status, and how have probiotics altered the course of your depressive illness? What else are you taking to reduce inflammation?
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:02:16
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 9:35:58
I'm on fluvoxamine and olanzapine. Both work to some extent but I'm still depressed.
I'm not taking anything to reduce inflammation at the moment. It is my plan to phase in probiotics, prebiotics, EPA fish oil and curcumin. That's why I am researching same in advance of starting.
I'm not ruling out minocycline, but want to first pursue things less likely to cause side effects.
>
> What is your current mood status, and how have probiotics altered the course of your depressive illness? What else are you taking to reduce inflammation?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:05:00
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression, posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:02:16
... and low fat diet.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.