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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by JadeKelly on November 18, 2008, at 23:37:55
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r, posted by that_guy23 on November 18, 2008, at 19:49:56
> would you think that lyrica would be a good augment with my list? here's my Diagnosis:
>
> GSAD/depression/GADSorry that guy,
I don't know anything about Lyrica, just that some on the board take it. Don't even know what class of drugs it falls under.
Let me know what you find out, OK?
~Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 19, 2008, at 5:37:45
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 18, 2008, at 23:37:55
Thats ok jade, I have a few Ideas, just getting so many different experinces, I guess thats expected. But I appretiate your help, I see my pdoc. tommorrow, and I'm tryng to cram as much info in my brain, at once. Yesterday I was researching, from like 6 am to 10 pm. So I plan on telling the doc. that i'm in pain in my neck and back from the OH, which is true, i'm extremely anxious, and that I will sign a waver for any contradicted drug. I get regular check-ups, for blood pressure or whatever and that I really need something. I was thinking lyrica if the ritalin don't go, witch it probably won't! jnew12 had allot of good to say about it. I'm gonna make one more post with a big list of augmentors, and hopefully i'll get input before tommorrow
what do you think?
Posted by JadeKelly on November 19, 2008, at 7:35:51
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 19, 2008, at 5:37:45
> Thats ok jade, I have a few Ideas, just getting so many different experinces, I guess thats expected. But I appretiate your help, I see my pdoc. tommorrow, and I'm tryng to cram as much info in my brain, at once. Yesterday I was researching, from like 6 am to 10 pm. So I plan on telling the doc. that i'm in pain in my neck and back from the OH, which is true, i'm extremely anxious, and that I will sign a waver for any contradicted drug. I get regular check-ups, for blood pressure or whatever and that I really need something. I was thinking lyrica if the ritalin don't go, witch it probably won't! jnew12 had allot of good to say about it. I'm gonna make one more post with a big list of augmentors, and hopefully i'll get input before tommorrow
>
> what do you think?Hi That guy, I think you're one dedicated soldier in the fight against depression! I read just recently that Lyrica works really well for a while, I would make your next appt. not to far off just in case you want to try another.
And go in with your research in order of which augment you want if she says no, then just go till she says Yes. That gets your foot in the door for the next one!! Job well done! No wonder you've been all over the board, haha, didn't realize your appt is tomorrow!! Btw-whats "the OH"? What happened to your neck? Be careful cause if she thinks you picked up script for narcotics your dead in the water.If you did, make sure its not contraindicated! I can't stress enough you DON'T want to mess around and end up with hypertensive crisis. Oh, REMEMBER to get antidote script like "Nifedipine" just in case. Do you have BP cuff? I can't remember. I think you do. If not, get one. I promise, it will give you peace of mind if you don't know whats happening as you add med(s).Good Luck!!! let me know what she gives you.
~Jade
>
>
PS-Have you pulled up the actual "Nardil" brand name sight? Parnate was less restrictive in that literature on some meds than PDoc thinks. Just google Nardil and look for the official sight and read the cotraindicated drug part, maybe at bottom. You may find something.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 20, 2008, at 21:17:19
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 19, 2008, at 7:35:51
Hi That Guy,
You've been all over this board, now tell us what you got! I hope PDoc was in a generous mood!
~Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 21, 2008, at 16:59:44
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 19, 2008, at 7:35:51
hey jade, I am dissapointed to say, that she didn't go for any augmentation for nardil. these would be, ritalin, lyrica, provigil, and neuroton. She said she has other options that would go against her process before considering augmentation with this drug. She also said what I'm looking for isn't going to help me in the long run. I practically begged, said I needed something, I would sign a waver, whatever it took, I actuall asked her what if my regular doctor prescribed me it, I know, it was stupid.
I actually just sat there and was crushed, not even an increse on benzos, silent and kept thinking how those drugs will temporaliy help, why won't she prescribe them, I'm so desperate, as I thought this a tear ran down my face. SHe spoke to me quitely and said shawn you don't have to do this she said, I could give you some nubers for oter pdocs. She said that she herself didn't take that path, and that continued cbt with your psychologist, as well as seeing me, having many options of course wil be the best route. She was making so much sense and I could understand her, and she was always easy to talk to and very good at making me feel a little better. We talked for the rest of the session, and by the end I wasn't so stuck on the augmentaions, although I kinda am. whan I left her office I was in a much better mood, which I usually am, besides the one prior appt. I told her I thought she was a good doctor and I respect that you didn't give in, and I meant i't , I felt even more sure than before the couple of sessions dealing with nardil, that now makes sense, despite that I do want other drugs, she was a very qualified psychiatrist. when I left I did ask for the other doctors, and she gave me them, and it felt knd of weird, but she said she took no affence to it. I found out through my relatives, that when I was recommended to her first, all the docs and nurses said she was one of the higest recommended pdocs. in Newfoudland. I also seen my psychologist today, and we had an amazing session, it was only the third, but I think she might be good as well.Right now I really want to stick with my reg pdoc. thinking she's right. And if I give her up and get another one, who's to say he'll give me the drugs, and he might suck. And there is one that is what they call a pill pusher, and doesn't really talk allot to you or even care, now I would get the drugs, most likely. I'm thinking that right now I should stay with the my regular, But my mind wanders in the other direction. This really sucks!! but it's gonna be a long hard road I guess, as usuall, I mean I have no relief from my SA what so ever, and my depression comes back when I keep getting stuck in this damn house, I don't no where to turn.
what do you think?
Posted by JadeKelly on November 21, 2008, at 20:25:37
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 21, 2008, at 16:59:44
Hey that guy,
Sorry to hear your dissapointment. I just posted a decent response to you, covered all points, then the da*n thing just disappeared. I could use some of that Lyrica right now myself!! Here's the really short version and I'll talk to you later more in depth, your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!
Keep the PDoc
Keep the CBT therapist
What dose of what benz are you on?
Still on 75mg Nardil?
Do you have a GP?
Who first prescribed Benz?I think I know what you are feeling, and you don't want that getting out of control before your next sessions. Write me back when your around if you want, I had a couple ideas.
~Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 22, 2008, at 7:06:35
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 21, 2008, at 20:25:37
> Hey that guy,
>
> Sorry to hear your dissapointment. I just posted a decent response to you, covered all points, then the da*n thing just disappeared. I could use some of that Lyrica right now myself!! Here's the really short version and I'll talk to you later more in depth, your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!
>
> Keep the PDoc
> Keep the CBT therapist
> What dose of what benz are you on?
> Still on 75mg Nardil?
> Do you have a GP?
> Who first prescribed Benz?
>
> I think I know what you are feeling, and you don't want that getting out of control before your next sessions. Write me back when your around if you want, I had a couple ideas.
>
> ~Jadehey, whats up? what did you mean by, "your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!"?? well anyway, heres the answer's to your questions:
the dose of benzo I'm on is 1 mg 3x per day.
Yes I am still on 75 mg of nardil.
no I don't really have a regular GP, they come and go in my town, so I see whoever I can.
My pdoc. is the first one to prescirbe benz.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 22, 2008, at 13:57:25
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 22, 2008, at 7:06:35
> > Hey that guy,
> >
> > Sorry to hear your dissapointment. I just posted a decent response to you, covered all points, then the da*n thing just disappeared. I could use some of that Lyrica right now myself!! Here's the really short version and I'll talk to you later more in depth, your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!
> >
> > Keep the PDoc
> > Keep the CBT therapist
> > What dose of what benz are you on?
> > Still on 75mg Nardil?
> > Do you have a GP?
> > Who first prescribed Benz?
> >
> > I think I know what you are feeling, and you don't want that getting out of control before your next sessions. Write me back when your around if you want, I had a couple ideas.
> >
> > ~Jade
>
> hey, whats up? what did you mean by, "your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!"?? well anyway, heres the answer's to your questions:
>
> the dose of benzo I'm on is 1 mg 3x per day.
>
> Yes I am still on 75 mg of nardil.
>
> no I don't really have a regular GP, they come and go in my town, so I see whoever I can.
>
> My pdoc. is the first one to prescirbe benz.
>Hi that guy, I thought I read a post or two of you being out with friends thats all. It was Friday night so I was assuming you may be out? What did you think I meant? Well, hope you are having good weekend, anyway.
Umm, lets see. Oh did you ask her to up to 90mg? I'd do that if you haven't. She wouldn't augment with ANYTHING? Or not with your choices? I'm thinking she wants to see where you go with CBT before she adds anything that could theoretically interfere with CBT. I get that. I just don't think she understands your feeling of desperate anxiety that needs relief YESTERDAY. I get that on occasion, but I can let it pass in an hour or four! I can't imagine it on a regular basis. How often do you feel "desperate"? What EXACTLY was her response to you seeing another PDoc, or, and maybe more importantly, a regular GP? Would that mean you couldn't see HER anymore, or that SHE just won't prescibe anything else right now? I'm on 1mg Klonopin 3x day. Which benzo Exactly are you on? Would increase/change in benz OR Parnate do it? Let me know all!
~Jade
PS-Does anyone in your family have GP you could see? Do they (family member) agree you need additional help? Might help is all.
Posted by that_guy23 on November 22, 2008, at 16:11:43
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 22, 2008, at 13:57:25
> > > Hey that guy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear your dissapointment. I just posted a decent response to you, covered all points, then the da*n thing just disappeared. I could use some of that Lyrica right now myself!! Here's the really short version and I'll talk to you later more in depth, your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!
> > >
> > > Keep the PDoc
> > > Keep the CBT therapist
> > > What dose of what benz are you on?
> > > Still on 75mg Nardil?
> > > Do you have a GP?
> > > Who first prescribed Benz?
> > >
> > > I think I know what you are feeling, and you don't want that getting out of control before your next sessions. Write me back when your around if you want, I had a couple ideas.
> > >
> > > ~Jade
> >
> > hey, whats up? what did you mean by, "your a youngster anyway, aren't you? So your out anyway!!"?? well anyway, heres the answer's to your questions:
> >
> > the dose of benzo I'm on is 1 mg 3x per day.
> >
> > Yes I am still on 75 mg of nardil.
> >
> > no I don't really have a regular GP, they come and go in my town, so I see whoever I can.
> >
> > My pdoc. is the first one to prescirbe benz.
>
>
> >
>
> Hi that guy, I thought I read a post or two of you being out with friends thats all. It was Friday night so I was assuming you may be out? What did you think I meant? Well, hope you are having good weekend, anyway.
>
> Umm, lets see. Oh did you ask her to up to 90mg? I'd do that if you haven't. She wouldn't augment with ANYTHING? Or not with your choices? I'm thinking she wants to see where you go with CBT before she adds anything that could theoretically interfere with CBT. I get that. I just don't think she understands your feeling of desperate anxiety that needs relief YESTERDAY. I get that on occasion, but I can let it pass in an hour or four! I can't imagine it on a regular basis. How often do you feel "desperate"? What EXACTLY was her response to you seeing another PDoc, or, and maybe more importantly, a regular GP? Would that mean you couldn't see HER anymore, or that SHE just won't prescibe anything else right now? I'm on 1mg Klonopin 3x day. Which benzo Exactly are you on? Would increase/change in benz OR Parnate do it? Let me know all!
>
> ~Jade
>
> PS-Does anyone in your family have GP you could see? Do they (family member) agree you need additional help? Might help is all.Oh I just didn't understand it, maybe I'm just a little slow. I didn't ask her yet about upping to 90, I was gonna stay at 75 for a while, but I think that now I might call her to tell her I want it Upped.
She wasn't going to augment with anything. And I told her I would sign a waver, whatever it took, to get an augmentor, she said it wasn't how she did things, which, like I said, I respected her more for, but still needed the drugs, some drug, I feel terrible everyday. With severe SA, and depression, I haven't really went anywhere uless I had to, and since I qiut drinking in september almost 12 weeks, I only seen my real good friends a couple times, and talked to them on the phone.
I have alot of family support, but they are totally against drugs even prescribed, maybe because I was into hard drugs.
You are right about how she wants to see how the cbt goes, but I really don't think she is gonna add anything, she seen how desperate I needed relief, thats why part of me is saying what could be worst? going against a contradiction, that I had allot i mean allot of research showing safe studys of all the drugs i had for suggestion, even something she suggested,or having I bad it like lifes not worth living.
I mean depressed or anxious 24 hours a day but I still push myself though with music I guess my docs. playing guitar and talking with close family. One of whom has been through the same thing and went to school for six years of psychology(my cousin)but is really busy with work and her child who is very hypractive.
But I can't stop nardil, something just won't let me, I feel I have to go to like 4 months, it's been over 2 1/2, and it keeps getting harder not to stop it, to go on pretty much anything else to get a stimulant with. And it doesn't help when you have an alcohol problem, that I feel I'm beating on my own.
She said that seeing another pdoc. or getting drugs from a gp, would result in losing her.
I am also on clonazepam 1mg 3x a day, and yes an increase in that would help, but I can't get that either.
I don't think I want to switch to parnate if nardil doesn't work, unless there's was definate chance of augment. How do you find the parnate? how long have you been on it? were you on nardil? if so, hoew long, what doses?
Wow what a rant, sorry I'm just agitated now cause the last couple of days I didn' take my clonazepam, and trying to save, to get more for each day, or for something I would definately need a high dose for.
I feel completely horrible shakey, really just not with it, but the one thing I can say is I haven't touched any alcohol, which is getting harder each day. But I have to change my life around now, if I go back to my old ways, I will be on my own, no support, I would not survive!! Alcohol mainly, and drugs would take me over.
Once again sorry for the rant. I appretiate all your help so much. your awsome.
any advice on any of this would be awsome.
Thanks. talk to you again soon hopefully
Posted by desolationrower on November 22, 2008, at 18:49:18
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 22, 2008, at 16:11:43
It can be quite frustrating to not get treatment you think you need. Hope it works out.
-d/r
Posted by JadeKelly on November 22, 2008, at 19:01:04
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 22, 2008, at 16:11:43
Hey that guy,
I've seen a rant and that wasn't even close. Perfectly fine posts. I wasn't sure what your history was, sorry you're having to fight addictions at the same time you are fighting depression. Probably hard to tell which came first as so many people self medicate before getting to a PDoc. I have seen first hand how hard this fight is. My nephew went thru it and now he lives with me. Do you think maybe a program of some kind? I really don't know how he would have beat his addictions without re-hab. Then he worked a program, he works out hard, almost every day. I mean, he just hit it from every angle. A/D's too. You sound strong. So is he. I hated watching him go thru that struggle, so much anxiety. But he did it. He filled his life with other things, does a program (AA) and made friends to hang out with that don't tempt him. This doesn't help you're immediate problem, I know that. I just wonder how much of your anxiety/depression is coming from addiction w/d? What do you think? If I'm way off, tell me. Either way, you're depressed. My nephew tried a few A/d's, some helped, but he wasn't allowed to have even benzos. He stopped all A/D's after a few months of "clean living". He's in remission now, and if he stays clean I imagine he'll stay that way. I don't see that he's at risk. He says he has nightmares now about his drug and alcohol abuse.
Did you get ANY treatment or re-hab for your addictions? The answer to that is pretty important. It could even effect which meds you take as some repair is probably warranted. Is your PDoc aware of your past? Do you take any supps? Do you work out? Believe me, I am not saying some supps, a workout, and some clean living is all I, or you need. If someone suggested that to me, which they have, I'd tell em to take a hike. The only thing thats gonna work for me, I've concluded after trying all above, is meds. Hardcore meds like Maoi's, probably with added augmentation. But thats me. I don't have the drug/alcohol thing to deal with. Get back to me, and PLEASE stop hoarding your klonopin! No wonder you feel like crap!!! You don't need that added anxiety! Let me know above answers.
Oh-Parnate. Got the initial week long great feeling you got I think on Nardil. Not sure what thats about. I'm getting much milder A/D effect than that early response. I feel especially better when I do go out. Developed bad habits while depressed, one is staying in house to much. Parnate makes me more sociable, I don't have that scared feeling I was getting. But like you, its not a total answer. I've been on for a month. So maybe more to come. Also, I haven't upped dose from original 30mg. Going to next appt. I'll let you know. I think Parnate is "speedier" than Nardil but not necessarily in a good way, especially if you have anxiety. Its not like Ritalin or things like that. Weight loss. Insomnia for couple weeks or so. I hear the difference is that Nardil has weight gain, and is more of an anti-anxiety, its also stronger A/D (Nardil is) for a lot of people. You may have delayed response due to previous "use". So giving it time is a good idea I would think. If it comes to a point where you can't take it anymore, I geuss you have the option to find another PDoc, but the augments you listed I think are going to be VERY short lived for you. I'd try an augment(s) that will keep you in long term remission.Adding a drug that has abuse potential I think would be a mistake.
Hows that for a rant :)
~Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 23, 2008, at 6:33:08
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 22, 2008, at 19:01:04
hey jade, like you said I do suffer from addiction as well as anxiety and depression, and yes I was working out for 11 weeks, but recently in the last week or so I have been to depressed and anxious to do any of it, And the excercise is something I have to get back into very soon.
Unlike your nephew though I think, well pretty sure I know, that it's the opposite. My depression/anxiety is what caused the addiction in the first place, I'd just never want to come down, but thats exactly where it lead me.
The alcohol was the worst, always had to have that, I feel that I can do without the drugs, well at least til the drinking starts first.
I've been clean for 11 1/2 weeks. Would have been 16 1/2 but I had 1 relapse 5 weeks in, just before starting nardil.I haven't went to rehab, I was going to but then I realized Iv'e been clean. Also I feel like you, meds are the number 1 answer, AT least for me now to get a boost. I find it hard to do cbt when your feeling so low, but feel after a med, or meds kicked in I would keep from relapse by doing the cbt, or a rehab, or whatever. Thats where the augmentation for nardil would come in, and it wouldn't have to be the ones I suggested something else would be fine.
I do however always feel happier when I leave my psychiatrist and psychologists office, just the talking really helps me. But it never lasts more than that day.
As for the clonazepam, your right not taking them was not helping, I had to take one fisrt thing this morning, but I just felt desperate. The worst for me is the question on nardil, now bear with me on this one. I spoke about this alot but anyway just in case you didn't read it her goes.
I started the nardil at 15 mgs a day for 1 week, upped it to 45 mgs for 2 weeks, 75 for 2 weeks. At 75 I remember almost immediatly getting this euphoria, if not the first day the second day for sure. Everytime I took a pill, it was like heaven, just to be sure it wasn't the benzo's, I stopped them for 1 day, that had nothing to do with it the euphoria was probably better. But I did continue the benzo's the next day. I was so happy, finally a drug that was gonna work for me. The second week the euphoria was coming and going, but the I still felt possitive effects from the drug better attitude, motivation, and mood.
after those 2 wonderful weeks it was time to see my pdoc. again, so asked how I was doing I said great, we dcided to up the dose, alright perfect even more relief, the next thing she was writing a prescription for 105 mgs, I was a bit confused,because I did remember reading the highest dose was usually 90, but II didn't know enough about it, and I figured well that just means i'm gonna feel amazing. Big mistake, I felt an effect almost immediatly on this dose to, orthostatic hypotension. I started falling around at first, then I would get dizzy, and I started to go temporarily blind, just for like 30 secs, my ears would ring, I had to lie down At first I found it funny, and my family kinda lauphed to thinking I was stoned off the drugs. I't wasn't funny after 2 or 3 days it just got worse I could not stand up for longer than 1 min, if that. after 1 week I dropped to 90, was still horrible started feeling depressed again got to 13 days on 90 and I dropped it to 75, where I should have stayed. after the first week or so the hypotension started to fade away, but it took all the good effest with it.
So here I am now on 75 for 3 1/2 weeks, feeling dpressed and anxious as hell, and wondering about the drug, did I screw it up?
Its been almost 12 weeks on nardil, and i'm just wondering if it's time to start thinking about a different drug, or stick with the nardil, upping it to 90 soon until I feel a change. In the beginning I told myself that I would go 3-4 months on this drug and be absolutely sure if it's the one for me, especially with all the success of nardil, and it being the gold standard for SA.
What do you think? Hve you heard of drugs taking 3 to 4 months to work, or even start working? Do you think the hugh dose, was jsut a set back, or may have screwed it up. If you think I should start thinking of different options, let me know af any you know for, for my situation. My worst diagnosis to me being my SA which is pretty severe, and I think depression comes from it.
thanks for all your concern.
hope to here from you soon.
Posted by that_guy23 on November 23, 2008, at 6:44:40
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 22, 2008, at 19:01:04
> Hey that guy,
>
> I've seen a rant and that wasn't even close. Perfectly fine posts. I wasn't sure what your history was, sorry you're having to fight addictions at the same time you are fighting depression. Probably hard to tell which came first as so many people self medicate before getting to a PDoc. I have seen first hand how hard this fight is. My nephew went thru it and now he lives with me. Do you think maybe a program of some kind? I really don't know how he would have beat his addictions without re-hab. Then he worked a program, he works out hard, almost every day. I mean, he just hit it from every angle. A/D's too. You sound strong. So is he. I hated watching him go thru that struggle, so much anxiety. But he did it. He filled his life with other things, does a program (AA) and made friends to hang out with that don't tempt him. This doesn't help you're immediate problem, I know that. I just wonder how much of your anxiety/depression is coming from addiction w/d? What do you think? If I'm way off, tell me. Either way, you're depressed. My nephew tried a few A/d's, some helped, but he wasn't allowed to have even benzos. He stopped all A/D's after a few months of "clean living". He's in remission now, and if he stays clean I imagine he'll stay that way. I don't see that he's at risk. He says he has nightmares now about his drug and alcohol abuse.
>
> Did you get ANY treatment or re-hab for your addictions? The answer to that is pretty important. It could even effect which meds you take as some repair is probably warranted. Is your PDoc aware of your past? Do you take any supps? Do you work out? Believe me, I am not saying some supps, a workout, and some clean living is all I, or you need. If someone suggested that to me, which they have, I'd tell em to take a hike. The only thing thats gonna work for me, I've concluded after trying all above, is meds. Hardcore meds like Maoi's, probably with added augmentation. But thats me. I don't have the drug/alcohol thing to deal with. Get back to me, and PLEASE stop hoarding your klonopin! No wonder you feel like crap!!! You don't need that added anxiety! Let me know above answers.
>
> Oh-Parnate. Got the initial week long great feeling you got I think on Nardil. Not sure what thats about. I'm getting much milder A/D effect than that early response. I feel especially better when I do go out. Developed bad habits while depressed, one is staying in house to much. Parnate makes me more sociable, I don't have that scared feeling I was getting. But like you, its not a total answer. I've been on for a month. So maybe more to come. Also, I haven't upped dose from original 30mg. Going to next appt. I'll let you know. I think Parnate is "speedier" than Nardil but not necessarily in a good way, especially if you have anxiety. Its not like Ritalin or things like that. Weight loss. Insomnia for couple weeks or so. I hear the difference is that Nardil has weight gain, and is more of an anti-anxiety, its also stronger A/D (Nardil is) for a lot of people. You may have delayed response due to previous "use". So giving it time is a good idea I would think. If it comes to a point where you can't take it anymore, I geuss you have the option to find another PDoc, but the augments you listed I think are going to be VERY short lived for you. I'd try an augment(s) that will keep you in long term remission.Adding a drug that has abuse potential I think would be a mistake.
>
> Hows that for a rant :)
>
> ~Jade
>
>
I did not get any treatment for my addictions, just through my pdoc. My pdoc. is aware of my past. I don't take supps, as in vitamins? As I told you I did start working out immediately and that helped. Also started eating healthy, getting the right rest, so I guess that did help, and stayed away for any alcohol drug use, this made it easier.sorry, forgot these questions.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 23, 2008, at 22:47:02
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 23, 2008, at 6:33:08
> hey jade, like you said I do suffer from addiction as well as anxiety and depression, and yes I was working out for 11 weeks, but recently in the last week or so I have been to depressed and anxious to do any of it, And the excercise is something I have to get back into very soon.
I know its hard, believe me, but setting a schedule, one you can handle, will really help.
>
> Unlike your nephew though I think, well pretty sure I know, that it's the opposite. My depression/anxiety is what caused the addiction in the first place, I'd just never want to come down, but thats exactly where it lead me.I think that happens to a lot of people. Unfortunately, by the time you realize you were depressed, its worse from addiction. So be patient.
>> The alcohol was the worst, always had to have that, I feel that I can do without the drugs, well at least til the drinking starts first.
> I've been clean for 11 1/2 weeks. Would have been 16 1/2 but I had 1 relapse 5 weeks in, just before starting nardil.
Well sounds like you picked yourself up. Good for you. Thats good you don't crave illegal drugs.It does seem like you are craving a stim type med. The paradox is you have anxiety. Maybe you should try Parnate. I've heard its more stimulating than Nardil. That would be something to talk to your PDoc about. I doubt she would mind switching if Nardil isn't working.
>
> I haven't went to rehab, I was going to but then I realized Iv'e been clean. Also I feel like you, meds are the number 1 answer, AT least for me now to get a boost. I find it hard to do cbt when your feeling so low, but feel after a med, or meds kicked in I would keep from relapse by doing the cbt, or a rehab, or whatever. Thats where the augmentation for nardil would come in, and it wouldn't have to be the ones I suggested something else would be fine.Its your life, but I've seen enough to know without some kind of treatment program, you may stay clean for a long time, but its likely you'll relapse if you don't have the tools of a treatment program to go back to. Don't know your schedule, but if your taking time off, that would give you people to talk to as well. Hope you do it as soon as you can.
>
> I do however always feel happier when I leave my psychiatrist and psychologists office, just the talking really helps me. But it never lasts more than that day.Psychologist is for CBT? Do you retain some of that?
>
> As for the clonazepam, your right not taking them was not helping, I had to take one fisrt thing this morning, but I just felt desperate. The worst for me is the question on nardil, now bear with me on this one. I spoke about this alot but anyway just in case you didn't read it her goes.
>
> I started the nardil at 15 mgs a day for 1 week, upped it to 45 mgs for 2 weeks, 75 for 2 weeks. At 75 I remember almost immediatly getting this euphoria, if not the first day the second day for sure. Everytime I took a pill, it was like heaven, just to be sure it wasn't the benzo's, I stopped them for 1 day, that had nothing to do with it the euphoria was probably better. But I did continue the benzo's the next day. I was so happy, finally a drug that was gonna work for me. The second week the euphoria was coming and going, but the I still felt possitive effects from the drug better attitude, motivation, and mood.
>
> after those 2 wonderful weeks it was time to see my pdoc. again, so asked how I was doing I said great, we dcided to up the dose, alright perfect even more relief, the next thing she was writing a prescription for 105 mgs, I was a bit confused,because I did remember reading the highest dose was usually 90, but II didn't know enough about it, and I figured well that just means i'm gonna feel amazing. Big mistake, I felt an effect almost immediatly on this dose to, orthostatic hypotension. I started falling around at first, then I would get dizzy, and I started to go temporarily blind, just for like 30 secs, my ears would ring, I had to lie down At first I found it funny, and my family kinda lauphed to thinking I was stoned off the drugs. I't wasn't funny after 2 or 3 days it just got worse I could not stand up for longer than 1 min, if that. after 1 week I dropped to 90, was still horrible started feeling depressed again got to 13 days on 90 and I dropped it to 75, where I should have stayed. after the first week or so the hypotension started to fade away, but it took all the good effest with it.Actually, I've been looking into that, because I had that same week or so of feeling GREAT on both Emsam (MAOI) and Parnate, turns out, thats a result of NE & epinephrine and happens to many people in the beginning of treatment then fades. Then later comes the A/D effect. More subtle. I seriously doubt your response had ANYTHING to do with that 105 dose.
>
> So here I am now on 75 for 3 1/2 weeks, feeling dpressed and anxious as hell, and wondering about the drug, did I screw it up?NO.
>
> Its been almost 12 weeks on nardil, and i'm just wondering if it's time to start thinking about a different drug, or stick with the nardil, upping it to 90 soon until I feel a change. In the beginning I told myself that I would go 3-4 months on this drug and be absolutely sure if it's the one for me, especially with all the success of nardil, and it being the gold standard for SA.
>
> What do you think? Hve you heard of drugs taking 3 to 4 months to work, or even start working? Do you think the hugh dose, was jsut a set back, or may have screwed it up. If you think I should start thinking of different options, let me know af any you know for, for my situation. My worst diagnosis to me being my SA which is pretty severe, and I think depression comes from it.I bet its the SOCIAL part of your anxiety that makes you crave a stim component. Now it makes sense to me. If it were me, I call her Monday and up it 90mg. If that doesn't help in say, 10 days, I'd tell her you need an augment of her choosing to help with anxiety or you need to switch. Parnate maybe? You may need augment with that, also, tho. I'm about to.I'll let you know how that goes. Maybe by the time you are deciding about Parnate, I'll be able to tell you if augmenting makes the difference. I've heard for alot, it does. Again, ALL IMHO. Talk to your PDoc. I think you'll find her much more receptive if you let her choose the augment. Sounds like she knows what she's doing (other than 105!!)
>
> thanks for all your concern.
>
> hope to here from you soon.
Good luck!~Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 24, 2008, at 14:36:07
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 23, 2008, at 22:47:02
hey jade,
hows it been going for you, i'd love to hear a little about your situation and how it's going.
I am so appretiative for the help. You always come through with some concern, and good input for me, I have seriously never experienced someone being so nice to someone they don't know. I think your definatly the kind of person we need more of on these boards!
Well I guess I will get to your last post. I am seeing a psychologist and just recently started cbt by the way. I keep a thought journal, for everyday, and now she wants me to start on exposures, if your familiar with that. I feel though that I find it hard for both these things, but I do keep an everyday thought journal, but have yet to use exposures. But so far it's just been the talking, and letting things out to both pdocs. And it is so easy to talk to them about everything. I have also opened up to close family and friends more so. I'ts like this time, as in tried this several times and fell back to the drink, I actually for the firts time really truly feel that I want and have to recover!
I did suggest the stims, and ritalin, at that, and in a way kind of shows you were right in both cases. I know the stims would work very well in social aspect because I did do allot of cocaine and remeber hearing how there very similar. Now this could make you wonder, did I just want to get back on drugs, or have something that I could take in low doses that would help me socially. I truly beleive that it is the latter. I know it is a similar drug, but I only wanted it to feel better not to abuse. Now in my sub-concious it could have some role, so I guess right now,the stims. wouldn't be such a good idea.
I do have a plan to call her to up my dose to 90 mgs, but she still won't augment. The last time I was there, I did ask for her suggestions on an augmentatin, but she said she wasn't going that route just yet, thats when the whole thing about me being able to get another doc. came up. So you see my predicament, lose her, and maybe get a worse pdoc. that would still not give me augmentation, Probably unlikely for both though, or stick with her on just nardil and clonazepam.
This caused me allot of distress, and still is becuase I can't see myself stopping nardil, being the gold standard for SA/SP, for at least 4 months in. So I don't know about switching to parnate yet, but maybe after nardil trial, which I hope I don't have to. That means another six weeks on nardil with just clonazepam, unless it works of course. I hope I can stck it out. Actually on wednesday I think it will be 4 weeks on 75, then I will up to 90 mg, until I see change, or decide to drop nardil.
Is there a waiting period to switch from nardil to parnate or whats the deal with that? Ehat about other AD's? Does it require a washout period? If I decide to stop taking nardil how fast can I come off of it from 90 mgs? In asking all of this I hope I'm right that I read you used to be on nardil. If so, how did it effect you? how long were you on it?
Well I guess that coers everything, I think.
hope to hear from you soon. I want to know a little about jade!
sincerly,
shawn
Posted by Vincent_Qc on November 24, 2008, at 15:35:55
In reply to no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTATION, posted by JadeKelly on November 15, 2008, at 19:39:21
Hi mister!
For the first time, I think I see someone with the same problem I have.In the begining of 2007, after trying everythings existing in the world for depression/anxiety and social phobia, my familly doctor put me on Nardil. I was also already on 8 mg of clonazepam.
I also have in the past a drug addiction and I had also an alcool problem in the past. I think that kinds of substances abuse is common with people who do social phobia and anxiety.
What I don't know it's if you also make panic attacks??? This is why I had to stop using "street" drugs back in 1996...and it's why also I stop drinking in june 2006. I had several panic attacks when I was drunk, even if I was taking the double of the dosage of Clonazepam I had to take. I learn more later than mix alcool and an anxiolytic like Clonazepam can kill you so I feel lucky to not have more problems than this at the time.
I'm 32 yo, and I begin do to panic attacks and social phobia with agoraphobia at 19 yo. The first couple of years I was on "Paxil" and I Was seeing a psychologist at the same time. I don't think the Paxil helped me at all. After gaining a lot of weight on it, I stop it at 23yo. I had a new doctor at the time and we try a lot of things after, zoloft, effexor, celexa (it was new at the time)...I never feel any improvement of my anxiety or my social phobia with all the SSRI's or SNRI's. At 25 yo, I decide to stop everything, I was tired of just ganing weight and not improve at all, in fact I was getting worse each time I try something new. I just give up at time.
At 28yo my anxiety and social phobia return at a more high level. I never felt like this in my life before. At the same time, I was moving into a new city and beginig the university. I return to see my old family doctor and after trying a lot of others pills (topomax, lyrica, gabapentin, effexor xr, seroquel, ziprexa, risperdal, name them...I try everything)...
So in august 2005 he decide to put me on Clonazepam. It was a good ide at fisrt, but he forget to ask me if I had a drinking problem or a drug addiction now or in the past!!! Of course I had ones...So I begin taking clonazepam 0.5 mg 4 times a day. It really work well for maybe 3 months. At the same time I was also drinking a lot. It was the first time in my life I was able to going out alone and feeling very well. I was a lot more sociable with strangers and the others in general and I was not shy at all. You can belive me, I do a lot of things that i'm shy now to mention on it!!! It was not me...I was feeling like on drugs, but a good drug, very relaxing...
In the begining of 2006, the 0.5 mg/4 times a day begin to stop working. My doctor double the dose, give me 1 mg /4 times a day. I was in heaven again...but the effects only last 2 months...I had to call him again and ask for more. He double the dose again, 2 mg/4 times a day. Another time, it last only 2 months...At the end I was totally drained of all my energy. I always continu to drink in the same period, I was drunk 4 nights by week...
In june 2006, I return to see him and he decide to put me on paxil 20 mg/day and the same clonazepam dose of 8 mg day. After having a lot of panick attacks when I was drunk even passed out 1 time, I decide to stop drinking. At the same time, I begin to have recurrent migraine and headache. Since june 2006, I have a big headache that never stop, some day it's tolerable, other day it's crazy...
Anyway, I stop the paxil after 2 months because I was getting worse than before. I just continu the Clonazepam and return to school after the summer. In the begining of 2007, I was not able to going out alone or just go to the university. I remove 3 courses in my winter session and keep only 2 courses. I call back again my family doctor and I ask him for help...I was in a bad state of mind...
He put me on Nardil for the first time of my life, MOAI was the only kind of medecine I never try in the past. I begin to 30 mg/day for 1 week, increase at 45 the week after and 75 mg at week 4. I was getting a little bit better, less anxious, but nothing for my social phobia. At week 5, my doctor put me on 90 mg/day. At first it was really great, I was feeling energic and less anxious....
The bad news is that I begin to have the same hypotension problem that you get at 105 mg...Just climbing stairs was difficult. I was earing sounds in my head, seing stars and having the black view for about 30 seconds...I pass out one time also for a couple of seconds...I was totally freaked out. I call my doctor and ask if it was normal. He say no...and that I had severe hypotension. He say to stay calm and that this side effect will fade away with time. I wait like this 3 weeks but it was just getting worst.
After 2 months on Nardil I just stop it cold turkey because it was untolerable. The hypotension problem was to big for me. It take maybe one week to recover from this...
I call my doctor again and he decide to try another thing, Remeron...The only good effect I had on it was the sleep quality...I have a insomnia problem since a lot of years...I was slepping much longer...but at the same time I gain a lot of pounds, not because I was eating more, it was just like this...
At the same time, I change the Clonazepam to Diazepam, because I had a lot of cognitive problems, memory loose and others things like that from the clonazepam and it was doing nothing even at 8 mg...I just wanted to withdrawl the Clonazepam changing it with the diazepam, it's a more long acting benzo...and of course it's not as efficient than Clonazepam, I never feel anything on it. At first I was more sleepy, but that it...I'm now only on 20 mg of Valium /day...a very low dose if you compare it to Clonazepam.
Trust me, having a more high Clonazepam dose will just make you feel worst. Since you seem to have a substance abuse problem like mine, You brain will always ask for more and more...Don't forget that's a drug also and more powerfull than alcool or anything else...
I ask to have a reference paper to see a psychiatrist at the hospital to have more help. I had to wait more than 8 months before I get an appointment. The new psychiatrist give me prozac, the only one SSRI's I never try. It was crazy at hell, I was so anxious, always on the panic mood...We try also again the Zoloft at a high dose...I feel nothing on it, I just gain weight again. e put me on Effexor XR, same thing, nothing after 2 months at 300 mg...I was just getting worse and worse...At the same time, I return in the Clonazepam world...In fact, I add a prescription for all the benzos existing in the world...We try the Ativan, Serax, Librium, Xanax...The more I Was taking them and the more I was feeling worst but at the same time I was not able to stop using them. So I ended up at the hospital because of my dependance problem...
After the hospital, I do my own drug reduction cedule...I ask for the Valium again...60 mg at first and I reduce the dose to 2o mg...now i'm stable at 20 mg and I DON'T WANT to return on a more powerfull anxiolytic drug!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!
LAst week I meet a new psychiatrist, he give me 5 choices...one of them was the PArnate... He give me this, I begin at 10 mg/day...It was ok for 3 days...after I begin to freak out...too much activiting for me. I had several panic attacks...
I see the same psychiatrist this morning and I ask him to return on Nardil, since Nardil have a less activing profile than the Parnate, in fact Nardil affect the Gaba receptors...mean that it's a more powerfull anxiolytic drugs than Parnate.
My new psychiatrist say that increase too fast the Nardil dose is a big error...He put me on 15 mg/day on week one and 30 mg on week 2...and I wil stay there for maybe one month before I will get a higher dose. To avoid hypotension problem you have to understand that Nardil lower your blood pressure, adding an anxiolytic on the top of it also lower your blood pressure. The more powerfull is the anxiolytic (Clonazepam, Xanax, Ativa) and the more side effects you will have with Nardil. That the way my new doctor explain it to me.
We are all in the same boat. I mean , we all want to recover fast and see some improvements fast...That's just normal, but I think this time I understand that taking my time will be the key to my problem. He told me also that it will take 2 months maybe more to see some improve of my state.
So one thing to remember, go slow on the dose and give some time to your brain to adjust to it. Too much Nardil will just give you more hypotension problem but you will not recover more fast!!!
As an advise for you, you're an anxious person, maybe you should stay on Nardil, just for the Gaba effect of it. Parnate don't have the gaba effect and for me it was like the time I was on the Prozac, a lot anxious and nervous...With the Parnate, you will just worsing your condition. I know we are all different, but for my experience, I know that an antidepressant who make me feel more anxious just push me to increase my Valium intake...and that's not good...
Note that people who don't have a substances abuse problem, Clonazepam or others benxos can be effective all their life... But for me that's impossible because I always became addicted fast on drugs...
So I hope it will help you ;-)
I hope you will feel more well soon!!!
Best regard!!!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by JadeKelly on November 24, 2008, at 23:00:12
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 24, 2008, at 14:36:07
> hey jade,
>
> hows it been going for you, i'd love to hear a little about your situation and how it's going.hey that guy Shawn, haha
Still trying out the Parnate and will soon add augment if I can. Some are adding a smaller amount of other A/D's. I'll let you know what happens.
>
> I am so appretiative for the help. You always come through with some concern, and good input for me, I have seriously never experienced someone being so nice to someone they don't know. I think your definatly the kind of person we need more of on these boards!Thanks, glad to be of service! I have brothers, sons, nephews. Its good to have people to talk to who have seen it all already.
>
> Well I guess I will get to your last post. I am seeing a psychologist and just recently started cbt by the way. I keep a thought journal, for everyday, and now she wants me to start on exposures, if your familiar with that. I feel though that I find it hard for both these things, but I do keep an everyday thought journal, but have yet to use exposures.I think its great you're openminded enough to keep the journal and I bet the exposures will be scary. But if you've come this far, I think you can pull it off. Just don't let anything derail you. I don't know exactly what the exposures will be obviously, but just do the best you can and if something totally freaks you out, well, bail!! Weren't expecting that I geuss. Someone was talking about this on another thread (I'll try to find it tomorrow) it said pushing it too far can backfire. I'm not trying to set you up for failure, I think you can do all of them. BUT if you're asked to do something you can't, again, don't let it derail you.
But so far it's just been the talking, and letting things out to both pdocs. And it is so easy to talk to them about everything. I have also opened up to close family and friends more so. I'ts like this time, as in tried this several times and fell back to the drink, I actually for the firts time really truly feel that I want and have to recover!
Thats great! You sound better and stronger. Keep up the good work! I bet your family is proud of you. I think thats a good attitude, you didn't ask for depression, you tried to handle it, now you're getting help!
>
> I did suggest the stims, and ritalin, at that, and in a way kind of shows you were right in both cases. I know the stims would work very well in social aspect because I did do allot of cocaine and remeber hearing how there very similar. Now this could make you wonder, did I just want to get back on drugs, or have something that I could take in low doses that would help me socially. I truly beleive that it is the latter. I know it is a similar drug, but I only wanted it to feel better not to abuse. Now in my sub-concious it could have some role, so I guess right now,the stims. wouldn't be such a good idea.You could have the BEST intentions. But it would be too tempting. One really stressful day...well you know the rest. I wouldn't give up on an augment down the road, but your Doc will have one in mind I'm sure. You'll have time here, too, to see whats working for people.
>
> I do have a plan to call her to up my dose to 90 mgs, but she still won't augment. The last time I was there, I did ask for her suggestions on an augmentatin, but she said she wasn't going that route just yet, thats when the whole thing about me being able to get another doc. came up. So you see my predicament, lose her, and maybe get a worse pdoc. that would still not give me augmentation, Probably unlikely for both though, or stick with her on just nardil and clonazepam.
>
"route just yet"That says she's willing to do it, just not yet. Does she know the CB Therapist? I bet if you keep that up, and don't ask for any more stims, etc. She'll augment. She'll have to. She can't just leave you on a med thats not working. I say go up to 90 tho. I'm increasing Parnate too.
> This caused me allot of distress, and still is becuase I can't see myself stopping nardil, being the gold standard for SA/SP, for at least 4 months in.
Did she say give it 4 months, or did you set that time frame?
So I don't know about switching to parnate yet, but maybe after nardil trial, which I hope I don't have to. That means another six weeks on nardil with just clonazepam, unless it works of course. I hope I can stck it out. Actually on wednesday I think it will be 4 weeks on 75, then I will up to 90 mg, until I see change, or decide to drop nardil.
>Well, everyone says be patient on Maoi's. I wish they would hurry up also.
> Is there a waiting period to switch from nardil to parnate or whats the deal with that? Ehat about other AD's? Does it require a washout period? If I decide to stop taking nardil how fast can I come off of it from 90 mgs? In asking all of this I hope I'm right that I read you used to be on nardil. If so, how did it effect you? how long were you on it?
Yeah, 2-4 wks depending on the switch. Usually 4 weeks. Especially if not MAOI. No, I wasn't on Nardil, but I was on the Emsam patch. Another MAOI. They made it so at lowest dose no food restricts. I liked it, but had to go up in dose so went to Parnate since had restricts anyway. Whats wierd to me is that crazy good feeling that lasts a week or two. Happened to me on BOTH Maoi's. So you stick to therapy and I'll be the Guinnea Pig for augments. I believe it will be dopamine/norepinephrine kind of med. I hoping to get back some of that initial response. Maybe it will come on its own.
>
> Well I guess that coers everything, I think.
>
> hope to hear from you soon. I want to know a little about jade!Jade has an awesome family and life that she would really like to get back to, once this leach of a depression leaves me!!! I've never been depressed before this, so learning like you!!
You take care, keep talking, its helping you I can tell. Keep me posted, I'll be around.
~Jade
>
> sincerly,
> shawn
Posted by that_guy23 on November 25, 2008, at 9:04:16
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 24, 2008, at 23:00:12
hey jade,
So how long have you been on parnate now? You say your gonna get augmentaion if you can, is this because your pdoc. won't prescribe? What type of other A/D's are other people adding? Hope you get your augmetor.
Oh so your a mom, congarts, how old are you sons? I think thats my next step, find a good girl, once I deal with this depression/anxiety or it could be a lifelong battle, as long as I can get control of it, maybe settle down, get a good girl to smarten me up. Hopefully buy next summer or soon after. I'll turn 24 and just get my licence back, which I've lost because of a dui I had a couple years ago when I was only 20 or 21. They just kept putting it off, now I have to wait til next july. Lost them in this past may, and it's very annoying relying on evryone else, when your used to just jumping in tior truck, then car and go on. I did write off 2 vehicles from drunk driving, the second time my friend was driving I know it's stupid, I wouldn't have a sip of beer now before driving, annd I always warn my friends.
Sorry to kinda get off topic, it just shows thats the life I have lead, the past 5-6 years, and I have had enough "fun"!! I think it is time to settle down. I also have a brother 2 years older than me, getting married next year, and he wants me to stand, and his fiance wants me to play a song that I wrote for them as soon as I heard they were getting married. I used to have a band all through high school, and plan on it again in the future.
meanwhile, back at the farm, The cbt. Yes it is hard for the journal and exposures. The journal though I'm finding a little easier each day. I guess just something to look back on. in the mean time the exposures, like you said are really soemthing you have to take step by step or they will backfire. You have to start off small, and I don't really have an idea where to start so when I see her again, i'll get some help with that. also my psychiatrist does know her, and is actually the one that recommende me to her.
I just got a call back then. as i was writing this, after calling my psychitrists secretary this morninng, about 1/2 an hour ago, and she said no to upping to 90mg. WHAT THE F*CK!!! I am seriously getting sick of this bitch!! It's so hard to find someone else though, and know that there good. So now I have no augmentation, no control over nardil. It just seem's if she knew how hard I was doing, she would help, instead seems like she just likes pissing me off!!
I don't think she plans on adding anything to nardil, actually I don't think she has a DAMN clue about MAOI's!! SO FRUSTRATING!!
sorry, i'm just very upset now.
As for the 4 months on nardil, that was me setting that time, I just want to go longer then any other A/D, considering it's success and that it is supposed to take longer, right?
So you say even switching to parnate is 2-4 weeks waiting period? And basically everything else will be 4 weeks. That really sucks.
Well I'm glad to here that you have a good family, and it sucks that something had to put you into this depression. But just keep your head high, you seem very strong and smart, and I believe you will beat this easily, just use your family to motivate you.
good luck
Shawn
Posted by that_guy23 on November 25, 2008, at 10:00:23
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTATION, posted by Vincent_Qc on November 24, 2008, at 15:35:55
> Hi mister!
> For the first time, I think I see someone with the same problem I have.
>
> In the begining of 2007, after trying everythings existing in the world for depression/anxiety and social phobia, my familly doctor put me on Nardil. I was also already on 8 mg of clonazepam.
>
yes I am on nardil, now for 12 weeks in 2 days, I am only on clonazepam 1mg 3x a day> I also have in the past a drug addiction and I had also an alcool problem in the past. I think that kinds of substances abuse is common with people who do social phobia and anxiety.
Yes I had drug addictions, mostly cocaine and extacy. But my biggest problem was alcohol, I am actually classified as an alcoholic. And have that to recover from as well.
>
> What I don't know it's if you also make panic attacks??? This is why I had to stop using "street" drugs back in 1996...and it's why also I stop drinking in june 2006. I had several panic attacks when I was drunk, even if I was taking the double of the dosage of Clonazepam I had to take. I learn more later than mix alcool and an anxiolytic like Clonazepam can kill you so I feel lucky to not have more problems than this at the time.I don't have panic attacks, at leat not since I was younger. I think when I was fourteen, I smoked a joint with my friends that was a gager, it got me very stoned, I think all of a sudden I had an anxiety or panic attack and I freaked out.
this was probably a first sign of anxiety, but I didn't realize until recently thats what it was.
I only recall starting to feel anxious and depressed at age 16-18. Another time that I remember, I was working as a gas attendent, and was always so anxouis, but again I didn't know that I had a disorder, or at least seeked help, until about 20. Any way, I remember as a car pulled away after me gassing up, I started to feel really weird couldn't breath right, flet like I was going crazy, but I maintained my cool and it went away after 2-3 mins, and luckily there was knowone around, cause I would like ly have been ashamed.
>
> I'm 32 yo, and I begin do to panic attacks and social phobia with agoraphobia at 19 yo. The first couple of years I was on "Paxil" and I Was seeing a psychologist at the same time. I don't think the Paxil helped me at all. After gaining a lot of weight on it, I stop it at 23yo. I had a new doctor at the time and we try a lot of things after, zoloft, effexor, celexa (it was new at the time)...I never feel any improvement of my anxiety or my social phobia with all the SSRI's or SNRI's. At 25 yo, I decide to stop everything, I was tired of just ganing weight and not improve at all, in fact I was getting worse each time I try something new. I just give up at time.
>
> At 28yo my anxiety and social phobia return at a more high level. I never felt like this in my life before. At the same time, I was moving into a new city and beginig the university. I return to see my old family doctor and after trying a lot of others pills (topomax, lyrica, gabapentin, effexor xr, seroquel, ziprexa, risperdal, name them...I try everything)...
I started with effexor, or effexxor xr, then paxil, prozac, zoloft, wellbutrin which was just something to increase sex drive to me added with other ssri's, nortriptyline, seroquel, and remeron which actually helped very quickly with my depression big time, it made me gain like 20-25 lbs, but that only put me to 170. It was not quite working though for anxiety, so I dropped it.
>
> So in august 2005 he decide to put me on Clonazepam. It was a good ide at fisrt, but he forget to ask me if I had a drinking problem or a drug addiction now or in the past!!! Of course I had ones...So I begin taking clonazepam 0.5 mg 4 times a day. It really work well for maybe 3 months. At the same time I was also drinking a lot. It was the first time in my life I was able to going out alone and feeling very well. I was a lot more sociable with strangers and the others in general and I was not shy at all. You can belive me, I do a lot of things that i'm shy now to mention on it!!! It was not me...I was feeling like on drugs, but a good drug, very relaxing...
>
> In the begining of 2006, the 0.5 mg/4 times a day begin to stop working. My doctor double the dose, give me 1 mg /4 times a day. I was in heaven again...but the effects only last 2 months...I had to call him again and ask for more. He double the dose again, 2 mg/4 times a day. Another time, it last only 2 months...At the end I was totally drained of all my energy. I always continu to drink in the same period, I was drunk 4 nights by week...
>
yeah I had a problem there too vincent, I kept upping the dose myself, and actually started to abuse them, eating them like candy whenever I went anywhere. This made me lose benzos
> In june 2006, I return to see him and he decide to put me on paxil 20 mg/day and the same clonazepam dose of 8 mg day. After having a lot of panick attacks when I was drunk even passed out 1 time, I decide to stop drinking. At the same time, I begin to have recurrent migraine and headache. Since june 2006, I have a big headache that never stop, some day it's tolerable, other day it's crazy...
>
> Anyway, I stop the paxil after 2 months because I was getting worse than before. I just continu the Clonazepam and return to school after the summer. In the begining of 2007, I was not able to going out alone or just go to the university. I remove 3 courses in my winter session and keep only 2 courses. I call back again my family doctor and I ask him for help...I was in a bad state of mind...
>
> He put me on Nardil for the first time of my life, MOAI was the only kind of medecine I never try in the past. I begin to 30 mg/day for 1 week, increase at 45 the week after and 75 mg at week 4. I was getting a little bit better, less anxious, but nothing for my social phobia. At week 5, my doctor put me on 90 mg/day. At first it was really great, I was feeling energic and less anxious....
>
> The bad news is that I begin to have the same hypotension problem that you get at 105 mg...Just climbing stairs was difficult. I was earing sounds in my head, seing stars and having the black view for about 30 seconds...I pass out one time also for a couple of seconds...I was totally freaked out. I call my doctor and ask if it was normal. He say no...and that I had severe hypotension. He say to stay calm and that this side effect will fade away with time. I wait like this 3 weeks but it was just getting worst.
>
> After 2 months on Nardil I just stop it cold turkey because it was untolerable. The hypotension problem was to big for me. It take maybe one week to recover from this...
>
> I call my doctor again and he decide to try another thing, Remeron...The only good effect I had on it was the sleep quality...I have a insomnia problem since a lot of years...I was slepping much longer...but at the same time I gain a lot of pounds, not because I was eating more, it was just like this...
>
> At the same time, I change the Clonazepam to Diazepam, because I had a lot of cognitive problems, memory loose and others things like that from the clonazepam and it was doing nothing even at 8 mg...I just wanted to withdrawl the Clonazepam changing it with the diazepam, it's a more long acting benzo...and of course it's not as efficient than Clonazepam, I never feel anything on it. At first I was more sleepy, but that it...I'm now only on 20 mg of Valium /day...a very low dose if you compare it to Clonazepam.
>
I found nothing with diazepam, I even took 110 mg one nght and downed a flask, and I still remember the whole night. xanax was good and ativan wasn't bad. but like you said there easy to get addicted to.
> Trust me, having a more high Clonazepam dose will just make you feel worst. Since you seem to have a substance abuse problem like mine, You brain will always ask for more and more...Don't forget that's a drug also and more powerfull than alcool or anything else...
>
> I ask to have a reference paper to see a psychiatrist at the hospital to have more help. I had to wait more than 8 months before I get an appointment. The new psychiatrist give me prozac, the only one SSRI's I never try. It was crazy at hell, I was so anxious, always on the panic mood...We try also again the Zoloft at a high dose...I feel nothing on it, I just gain weight again. e put me on Effexor XR, same thing, nothing after 2 months at 300 mg...I was just getting worse and worse...At the same time, I return in the Clonazepam world...In fact, I add a prescription for all the benzos existing in the world...We try the Ativan, Serax, Librium, Xanax...The more I Was taking them and the more I was feeling worst but at the same time I was not able to stop using them. So I ended up at the hospital because of my dependance problem...
>
> After the hospital, I do my own drug reduction cedule...I ask for the Valium again...60 mg at first and I reduce the dose to 2o mg...now i'm stable at 20 mg and I DON'T WANT to return on a more powerfull anxiolytic drug!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!
>
that must have been hard! and took alot of motivation
>
LAst week I meet a new psychiatrist, he give me 5 choices...one of them was the PArnate... He give me this, I begin at 10 mg/day...It was ok for 3 days...after I begin to freak out...too much activiting for me. I had several panic attacks...
>
> I see the same psychiatrist this morning and I ask him to return on Nardil, since Nardil have a less activing profile than the Parnate, in fact Nardil affect the Gaba receptors...mean that it's a more powerfull anxiolytic drugs than Parnate.
>
> My new psychiatrist say that increase too fast the Nardil dose is a big error...He put me on 15 mg/day on week one and 30 mg on week 2...and I wil stay there for maybe one month before I will get a higher dose. To avoid hypotension problem you have to understand that Nardil lower your blood pressure, adding an anxiolytic on the top of it also lower your blood pressure. The more powerfull is the anxiolytic (Clonazepam, Xanax, Ativa) and the more side effects you will have with Nardil. That the way my new doctor explain it to me.
>
I can here that I was increased way too fast, but stayed because it's the gold standard for SA. and I heard of such success.
>
We are all in the same boat. I mean , we all want to recover fast and see some improvements fast...That's just normal, but I think this time I understand that taking my time will be the key to my problem. He told me also that it will take 2 months maybe more to see some improve of my state.
>
yep you gotta be patient. Ive learned that, but have no patience
>
So one thing to remember, go slow on the dose and give some time to your brain to adjust to it. Too much Nardil will just give you more hypotension problem but you will not recover more fast!!!
>
> As an advise for you, you're an anxious person, maybe you should stay on Nardil, just for the Gaba effect of it. Parnate don't have the gaba effect and for me it was like the time I was on the Prozac, a lot anxious and nervous...With the Parnate, you will just worsing your condition. I know we are all different, but for my experience, I know that an antidepressant who make me feel more anxious just push me to increase my Valium intake...and that's not good...
>
> Note that people who don't have a substances abuse problem, Clonazepam or others benxos can be effective all their life... But for me that's impossible because I always became addicted fast on drugs...
I agree
>
> So I hope it will help you ;-)
>
> I hope you will feel more well soon!!!
>
> Best regard!!!
>
> Vincent ;-)thanks for the advice
Posted by Vincent_QC on November 25, 2008, at 13:35:23
In reply to Re: no stim /no benz BESTNARDILAUGMENT))Vincent_QC, posted by that_guy23 on November 25, 2008, at 10:00:23
> yes I am on nardil, now for 12 weeks in 2 days, I am only on clonazepam 1mg 3x a day
>Thanks for your answer...Me english level is not top notch...sorry...3 mg if clonazepam seem to be ok, I mean it's a norlam dose...the key is to not abuse of them...
> Yes I had drug addictions, mostly cocaine and extacy. But my biggest problem was alcohol, I am actually classified as an alcoholic. And have that to recover from as well.
>Ok, more stimulating drugs...My problem with drug was more with "weeds", LSD and PCP (chimical drug very cheap but very popular in Canada back in the begining of the 90's). I start drinking a couple of years ago and my problem begin to be more serious when I start Clonazepam pills...I was eating them like candy and I was drunk all the time.
> I don't have panic attacks, at leat not since I was younger. I think when I was fourteen, I smoked a joint with my friends that was a gager, it got me very stoned, I think all of a sudden I had an anxiety or panic attack and I freaked out.
> this was probably a first sign of anxiety, but I didn't realize until recently thats what it was.
>I only recall starting to feel anxious and depressed at age 16-18. Another time that I remember, I was working as a gas attendent, and was always so anxouis, but again I didn't know that I had a disorder, or at least seeked help, until about 20. Any way, I remember as a car pulled away after me gassing up, I started to feel really weird couldn't breath right, flet like I was going crazy, but I maintained my cool and it went away after 2-3 mins, and luckily there was knowone around, cause I would like ly have been ashamed.
> >
> >That's look a lot like my history... I had my first panic attack on drugs..."weeeds"...at maybe 15 yo...but at the time I was not aware of the anxiety or panic trouble problem so I continu to smooke "pot" everyday until I was 19 yo, when I do my first panic attack without taking any drug. I was freaked out. The symptoms you describe seem to be the ones of a panic attack.
> yeah I had a problem there too vincent, I kept upping the dose myself, and actually started to abuse them, eating them like candy whenever I went anywhere. This made me lose benzos.Loose benzos??? You mean?... Drug and alchol abuse is common in social phobia population. That's mean it's normal to abuse of the Clonazepam , Clonazepam act like alcohol, it's a depressor of the central nervous system and you feel less shy on them, less anxious...but one of this day you will have to pay for it...I mean that drinking with clonazepam can kill you, you double the chance to have a health problem. Don't give up, and stay at 3 mg of clonazepam, more will not make you feel more well...
> I found nothing with diazepam, I even took 110 mg one nght and downed a flask, and I still remember the whole night. xanax was good and ativan wasn't bad. but like you said there easy to get addicted to.
Diazepam is not as powerfull as the new generation of benzos...Newer anxiloytics are very powerfull. One rule you can apply to them, the less time they take to go in your bloodstream and make effects and the less time they stay in your system, the more addicting they are...Xanax and Ativan (Lorazepam) are the worst of them. They are short half-life drugs, mean that you will need always more and more... Diazepam (Valium) is a long half-life drug, stay more longer in your blood and is more stable also, you don't have the craving effect of Xanax or Clonazepam since you always get some of the drug in your system...I think it can stay more than 200 hours in the blood...mainly as different metabolites...Librium, an older drugs than Valium is the less addictive... But you're right, Diazepam do nothing for the anxiety, especially if you take Clonazepam before or another powerfull drugs like it... Like I write before, I take it just to prevent the withdrawl sysmptoms comming from the benzos...I never felt anything on it, I just get a lot of fatigue. With the time, the fatigue fade away...I see it like a prevention pill...a security pill if you want...When I will find the good drugs to help me with social phobia I will stop the Diazepam by 1 mg/week...
> that must have been hard! and took alot of motivation
> >Motivation yes...Hard...you can't beleive how hard it was. Unable to speak, unable to think, always overstress, I think I loose more than 20 pounds in the first 2 weeks. I was unable to going out of the house, I had a lot of anziety and panic attacks, shaking, muscles spams, hallucinations, irritable to the point that I was violent...It take more than 2 months to recover...and after 5 months, I still have some withdrawl symptoms, lack of memory, difficulty speaking, my hands shake a lot, I start a discussion and I get lost and I forget the main subject in the midle of the discussion. I can't look at the TV or stay in ront of my computer a long time because I became very tired fast...I don't wish this to anyone in the world.
> I can here that I was increased way too fast, but stayed because it's the gold standard for SA. and I heard of such success.
> >Maybe yes, maybe not...We are all different on that. What I can read about your problem look a lot like the one I got before so it why I wanted to talk about my experience. Remember that you're not suppose to feel an "high" on an antidepressant. Yes, you're suppose to see some improvement of your mental health state but not an" HIGH"... Taking more will not make you recover more faster. You have to wait...I know about patience, I don't have it either, but what we can do???? I think you will have no choice to wait another month or so, just in case...After, if it fail, ask for parnate, but don't forget it's a more activating antidepressant, so it work less for anxiety or social phobia. Adding a stimulant with can be dangerous also. I don't know why some people here seem to be not aware of it. I will never take a chance with that.
I drink more coffee to have more energy that's it... I had several try of stimulants in the past, Ritalin, Adderall, provigil...and that's not good for anxious people.
I'm lacking a lot of energy, In fact I don'T have energy at all, I don't sleep a lot at night, I do insomnia and I have to take a long nap every afternoon...I try to stop doing a nap , to help my sleep problem at night I never succed...Taking a stimulant will just leave you without energy at all after and with more fatigue...
> thanks for the advice
Your welcome...i'm here for that...even if I don't understand everything on this website, since i'm new...
Posted by JadeKelly on November 25, 2008, at 17:02:25
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » JadeKelly, posted by that_guy23 on November 25, 2008, at 9:04:16
> hey jade,
Hi Shawn,
I read down the page some, but may have some hopeful news and another poster you may want to run some quick questions by. Back to yours.
>
> So how long have you been on parnate now? You say your gonna get augmentaion if you can, is this because your pdoc. won't prescribe? What type of other A/D's are other people adding? Hope you get your augmetor.
>I called my PDoc and upped to 40mg Parnate. I've been on 5+ weeks. I'll have to wait to see Doc about augment at appt. No way would he do that by phone if we haven't talked about it. After this guy I just posted to, not sure I'll need it. It seems like mostly anti/psych meds and mood stablizers. Some stims, but remember, thats short term for you and it WILL disrupt your plan for the good life. Please don't do it. It'll lead you back where you were.
> Oh so your a mom, congarts, how old are you sons? I think thats my next step, find a good girl, once I deal with this depression/anxiety or it could be a lifelong battle, as long as I can get control of it, maybe settle down, get a good girl to smarten me up. Hopefully buy next summer or soon after.
My sons are late teens, nephew is around your age.He did exactly what you are talking about and its a great idea. Its NOT going to last forever Shawn. So many kids go thru this at your age. Glad to see you're smart enough and strong enough to get it together now. My nephew, after cleaning up as you have, getting rid of some of the residual stuff, keep working out, he went and got a beautiful good girl to spend time with! It helped him immensely. Wait till you're ready and feel strong.I'll turn 24 and just get my licence back, which I've lost because of a dui I had a couple years ago when I was only 20 or 21. They just kept putting it off, now I have to wait til next july. Lost them in this past may, and it's very annoying relying on evryone else, when your used to just jumping in tior truck, then car and go on. I did write off 2 vehicles from drunk driving, the second time my friend was driving I know it's stupid, I wouldn't have a sip of beer now before driving, annd I always warn my friends.
Just remember it this way, no "good girl" is gonna wanna be around that stuff. She's gonna wanna see you have your you know what together. And I have the feeling you will. Just keep focusing on the life you want. Improving yourself. You are certainly smart enough and articulate enough to go get it!
>
> Sorry to kinda get off topic, it just shows thats the life I have lead, the past 5-6 years, and I have had enough "fun"!! I think it is time to settle down. I also have a brother 2 years older than me, getting married next year, and he wants me to stand, and his fiance wants me to play a song that I wrote for them as soon as I heard they were getting married. I used to have a band all through high school, and plan on it again in the future.Hey! Thats awesome. What do you play? Sounds like you and brother are close. And its not really "off topic" cause if you don't have a life to go get that excites you, how would this help, right? Gotta be getting excited about the new life for Shawn! Thats a big part. And having good people around you that are really counting on you is a good thing.
>
> meanwhile, back at the farm, The cbt. Yes it is hard for the journal and exposures. The journal though I'm finding a little easier each day. I guess just something to look back on. in the mean time the exposures, like you said are really soemthing you have to take step by step or they will backfire. You have to start off small, and I don't really have an idea where to start so when I see her again, i'll get some help with that. also my psychiatrist does know her, and is actually the one that recommende me to her.Good idea.
>
> I just got a call back then. as i was writing this, after calling my psychitrists secretary this morninng, about 1/2 an hour ago, and she said no to upping to 90mg. WHAT THE F*CK!!! I am seriously getting sick of this bitch!! It's so hard to find someone else though, and know that there good. So now I have no augmentation, no control over nardil. It just seem's if she knew how hard I was doing, she would help, instead seems like she just likes pissing me off!!
>
> I don't think she plans on adding anything to nardil, actually I don't think she has a DAMN clue about MAOI's!! SO FRUSTRATING!!Wierd that she'd write for 105mg, but now won't write for 90mg. Maybe it scared her. My book says start at 15mg 3xday then to titrate to 60mg-90mg slowly. So, many people I geuss stop at 60mg. Not saying you should. I doubt 15mg more will make that much difference, I just don't know.
>
> sorry, i'm just very upset now.I don't blame you. Take a day or two and think about it. Talk to her in person once more and see how you feel. If she's more a therapist that PDoc, maybe someone else, just a consult? (Not from her list)
>
> As for the 4 months on nardil, that was me setting that time, I just want to go longer then any other A/D, considering it's success and that it is supposed to take longer, right?After talking to this guy, yeah. Stay on it. He was saying after reaching 60mg (for me), it would be another 6 weeks at least. So total 4 months! Don't know what benefit between here and there but sure wish it would hurry up! I'm gonna hang in there like you, as we've come this far, right!!
>
> So you say even switching to parnate is 2-4 weeks waiting period? And basically everything else will be 4 weeks. That really sucks.Don't do it. I just now think you are on the right med and switching will delay end results for too long. You don't have far to go, right? To reach 4 mos? How many more weeks, and how long have you been on Klonopin? Any chance you have tolerance to Klonopin? Could you switch to another Benz? Don't take more than you're supposed to, I could see that delaying things. Only thing I can think of Shawn, other than waiting it out, is to find PDoc willing to prescribe non-addicting augment, and up your dose to 90mg.
Also, I'm finding I get irritable sometimes on this stuff. Nardil may be the same. Make a plan for when you're really pissed off. NO GOING BACK!!! YOU CAN DO THIS! If you don't have anti- depression going on at 4 months see another PDoc for sure. But don't quit! It just may be an augment away.
>
> Well I'm glad to here that you have a good family, and it sucks that something had to put you into this depression. But just keep your head high, you seem very strong and smart, and I believe you will beat this easily, just use your family to motivate you.
Thanks Shawn, and remember, I've got 20 years on you. I imagine, as smart as you are, this system is easier to navigate for an older adult. I'm sure its frustrating nonetheless. And as for family, we both know, if you haven't been there, all the good intentions in the world are just that.Keep me posted, I'll do same.
PS-Look on board for Nardil2007. If you can catch him, maybe good source. I talked with a guy before him that said Nardil and stim are answer. After talking to "Nardil2007" I think stims just make anyone feel better for a time, unless ADD. No buzz on that dose. You want the real deal.
Good luck to you,
~Jade
>
> good luck
>
> Shawn>
Posted by that_guy23 on November 26, 2008, at 18:33:26
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 25, 2008, at 17:02:25
Hey again,
I'm glad you found someone to relate to. Has he helped out much with the parnate? This would be the same guy who had experience in nardil as well? nardil2007 was it? I'm not completely familiar with all of this, so should I start anew thread asking his advice, or just post somewhere uder wher he has already?
On another note, I just know there is no chance of getting augmentation with this pdoc., not for nardil. If so it wouldn't be this soon. I've been on it for 12 weeks, so I have about 5-6 weeks to reach 4 months. I won't see her to raise my dose for another 2 weeks, leaves me on 90 for 3 weeks if she will even up it. If not that will be it, I will definately search for anotherpdoc.! She just seems more hard to get along with. This is only since the nardil, which I suggested. And have been suggesting things ever since, but I never really did this before. Do you think this would offend her? I mean I beleive a patient shoud have some input, actually allot, on the drugs that there going to be using, not the doctor! Especially if they've reserached the hell out of it. I mean am I wrong? Don't most people suggest drugs they would like to try? It sure seems like it, after reading people hearing of a drug on here and other forums, then the next thing you know, there on it.
As for that old life style and what I have done in the past, it's not the path I want to end up down again. And like you said I am gonna push hopefully to 4 months, what about you? you gonna stick it out? keep me posted on the progress.
I really have been pondering over whether to call another pdoc., but the second I see them I think I will lose her.
It has been very hard, because I am sure there is no change in my SA. I was at a garage that my aunt had to go into, which I used to work. She had to drop off her car, so we had to go in and wait, I was so anxious and I don't know why. This is when I came home and went to bed, realizing twelve weeks gave me no progess.
This sucks because somthing like provigil, which is a non-stim, but kinda acts as one, might help, or anything, It's getting much harder, and it all comes back to my doctor. Like I said she gave me 2 people, one is not a good pdoc., but seems to love prescribing drugs, the other one I'm not sure if he is as good, and I don't know how he would be about drugs. Shouldn't there be people I could see just to get options best for me, I mean it's my life.
On a lighter note, me and my brother are pretty close, well in the past few years we haven't seen each other alot, but we've always had that connection. When he called me to ask me to stand, he even asked if it bothered me that his best man was another guy, which happened to be his life long best friend. I was like I am just glad to be standing, of course I don't mind! And yes I do play guitar and write songs, it's what gets me through allot of this sh*t! I used to be all punk rock. We werelike don't even mention anything else, in the old high school days. I still do love my punk, even a bit of emo, and allot of hardcore punk. But I love all kinds of music, no country, besides for Jonny Cash, which I guess is only part country. I'm trying to learn "tears in heaven", by clapton, but it is hard!
Back to the sphycho, I mean psychchiatrist, oops. She also said to see how the cbt is going, and if I don't find it at least a little easier I am letting her know it's just not enough yet. Not that I want to quit, but a nudge would help it.
sorry about the rant, just started typing and guess I really needed to vent.
Thanks for listening, and helping me.
I would love your opinion on all of this.
thanks,
Shawn
Posted by JadeKelly on November 26, 2008, at 21:37:54
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r, posted by that_guy23 on November 26, 2008, at 18:33:26
> Hey again,
Hey Shawn!
>
> I'm glad you found someone to relate to. Has he helped out much with the parnate? This would be the same guy who had experience in nardil as well? nardil2007 was it? I'm not completely familiar with all of this, so should I start anew thread asking his advice, or just post somewhere uder wher he has already?
Yeah, he's great for Parnate advice, but you've already posted back and forth on another thread. Not sure he's the one you'd want further advice from re: Nardil. He's been off it for a while, and you've come too far to quit now. I do have a couple questions though. Did you just get that initial "great mood thing" or does it come back for a few days when you increase dose? Or maybe that didn't happen due to 105mg. Btw-I saw somewhere people DO go up to 105mg, she may have been trying to get you to remission quickly and over did it. Now she's nervous, especially with stim requests.
>
> On another note, I just know there is no chance of getting augmentation with this pdoc., not for nardil. If so it wouldn't be this soon. I've been on it for 12 weeks, so I have about 5-6 weeks to reach 4 months. I won't see her to raise my dose for another 2 weeks, leaves me on 90 for 3 weeks if she will even up it. If not that will be it, I will definately search for anotherpdoc.! She just seems more hard to get along with. This is only since the nardil, which I suggested. And have been suggesting things ever since, but I never really did this before. Do you think this would offend her?Shawn, this is about you, not her. I don't know if she'd be offended or not, but people request meds and switch Docs all the time. Please base this decision on what you feel in your gut is going to get you well the fastest!
I mean I beleive a patient shoud have some input, actually allot, on the drugs that there going to be using, not the doctor! Especially if they've reserached the hell out of it.
I agree totally!!
I mean am I wrong?
NO!
Don't most people suggest drugs they would like to try? It sure seems like it, after reading people hearing of a drug on here and other forums, then the next thing you know, there on it.
Yes, they do. Your only glitch is the previous drug use. Docs are going to be careful there as they should be. However, increasing your dose or adding a non addictive augment, I don't see the problem there, but I'm not a PDoc.
>
> As for that old life style and what I have done in the past, it's not the path I want to end up down again. And like you said I am gonna push hopefully to 4 months, what about you? you gonna stick it out? keep me posted on the progress.We've come to far to turn back now!
>
> I really have been pondering over whether to call another pdoc., but the second I see them I think I will lose her.I'm curious, my PDoc sees me for 15 minutes. Does your's also do therapy? If she does, could you agree to disagee about meds and just see her for therapy? It seems like you benefit from talking to her. She just pisses you off when it comes to meds, right?
>
> It has been very hard, because I am sure there is no change in my SA. I was at a garage that my aunt had to go into, which I used to work. She had to drop off her car, so we had to go in and wait, I was so anxious and I don't know why. This is when I came home and went to bed, realizing twelve weeks gave me no progess.I can see why you'd be confused about what to do. So you have 4 weeks left then, right? You know, you set a goal, and even if it doesn't work, you did what you said you were going to do. I have some ideas for you if you do end up coming off Nardil. I think tho, you should add an augment SOON to see if that helps. I've heard a lot of people say that was all it took, an augment. But it has to be the right one based on your profile. I'll check around.
>
> This sucks because somthing like provigil, which is a non-stim, but kinda acts as one, might help, or anything, It's getting much harder, and it all comes back to my doctor. Like I said she gave me 2 people, one is not a good pdoc., but seems to love prescribing drugs, the other one I'm not sure if he is as good, and I don't know how he would be about drugs. Shouldn't there be people I could see just to get options best for me, I mean it's my life.Well, IMHO, if you know what you want, I'd go with the one who likes to prescribe. UNLESS HE's PRESCRIBING STIMS!!!! I know I've beat this to death, but you don't want to relapse cause some Doc will prescribe anything. How do you know that by the way? Just curious. I'm surprised she'd give a Doc less conservative than she. Remember, this is about YOUR recovery. You can't worry about what she'll think. You can only do what your gut tells you.
>
> On a lighter note, me and my brother are pretty close, well in the past few years we haven't seen each other alot, but we've always had that connection. When he called me to ask me to stand, he even asked if it bothered me that his best man was another guy, which happened to be his life long best friend. I was like I am just glad to be standing, of course I don't mind!You know, my older brother is probably my best friend. We tell each other everything. Its good to keep that connection going. Nothing like a good brother when the weather isn't so fair.
And yes I do play guitar and write songs, it's what gets me through allot of this sh*t! I used to be all punk rock. We werelike don't even mention anything else, in the old high school days. I still do love my punk, even a bit of emo, and allot of hardcore punk. But I love all kinds of music, no country, besides for Jonny Cash, which I guess is only part country. I'm trying to learn "tears in heaven", by clapton, but it is hard!
Thats just so cool. Eric Clapton is one of my all time favorites. I have several of his CD's. I used to cry when I would hear "tears in heaven". So sad. Beautiful song. Especially his awesome guitar playing! I wish I knew how to play an instrument. This will help you snag that dream girl your gonna get next summer, right??!! Haha.
>
> Back to the sphycho, I mean psychchiatrist, oops. She also said to see how the cbt is going, and if I don't find it at least a little easier I am letting her know it's just not enough yet. Not that I want to quit, but a nudge would help it.Whats not enough yet? Your doing the journal, right? And your asking for a little help in getting started on the exposures, right? Where's the problem? Jeez!
>
> sorry about the rant, just started typing and guess I really needed to vent.
>
No rant, and no apology needed! Don't we apologize enough! lol. Glad to help someone your age who obviously wants to help himself so badly. I'd hate to see you get de-railed, because you didn't listen to your self. Btw-what does your family think? Are they weighing in on this? Just remember, if you can't do this anymore with current Doc, you CAN switch. IMHO, of course!> Thanks for listening, and helping me.
>
> I would love your opinion on all of this.
>
> thanks,
> Shawn
>
Never a problem Shawn, we all gotta get help where we can find it, right? You're gonna get through this, and I can't wait to hear about it!~Your friend, Jade
Posted by that_guy23 on November 27, 2008, at 16:35:20
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r » that_guy23, posted by JadeKelly on November 26, 2008, at 21:37:54
hey jade,
I guess I'll start with the great moood thing, this happened when I was upped to 75 at week 4. I can remember getting this euphoria, which I've probably mentioned. Anyway the euphoria lasted for a week straight, then off and on for a week, which was my 2 weeks on 75 from 4-5 weeks. During this time it was also when I got a hugh mood improvement, my attitude was great, and I had way more motivation. This was the greatest 2 weeks on nardil, actually, the greatest 2 weeks that I have had in a long time, without alcohol or street drugs. Unfortunately you hit the nail right on the head with the 105 dose increase. Felt effects of hypotension just as quick as the good effects at 75. This lasted horribly for a month straight, as I came down to 90 after a week, then 75, after 2 weeks. At 75 it was bad for a week, then it started to just come and go, but this left me very depressed. Since that, I have been on 75 for an extra 3 weeks, 4 in all. That shows you how I could wonder if the hugh dose may have back tracked me. I think though now after another 2 weeks on 75 I will put it at 90, if she allows it, if not she's history. This is what I wanted to the other day, and leave it there, until I feel a change. I think after 6 weeks on 75 and by then 14 weeks in all on nardil, that upping to 90 could very well bring me up a little, if not it is the max dose, and i'll just leave it at that.
AS far as getting advice goes, I found that going to too many people will make your head spin, and leave you more confused with all the different opinions. The only person on here now that I try and keep in touch with on a daily basis, is you. I've spoken to many people, few had helped a little, but you have been the most help yet. You see my point, and don't just disregard it. On other forums, and probably here to, there are allot of people that have been there so long, I guess they figure there always right, but you have to take into account taht everybody's body/brain acts differently. Whether it reacts slower to the drugs or faster, stuff like that.
Since right now I'm just getting through it all with the nardil and clonazepam, which isn't high enough at 1mg 3x a day, but she won't up it or change it. anyway, I think your great to talk to and find not only you give me ideas, or push me towards persuing my own, but just the chats alone help me feel better.
As for the pdoc., I don't really care about what she thinks of it, but I don't have alot of options where I live, in Newfoundland. A couple of people had mentioned to my mother, about the one that they called the drug pusher, but he could end up being the best one, and there's another, in my area, and I don't know much about them. There's 4 doctors in that town, which I have to travel an hour east to get to, one of them is not taking patients, that leaves the one I've got and the other 2. I'm just worried becuase doctors come and go here, and thats why it's such a hard decision. But I have to suck it up, and move on if she doesn't help.
You mentioned how increasing my dose and getting a non-addictive agument will help, yes thats what I'm looking for, although I still keep ritalin in my mind because, it help's The hypotension side effects, as well as sexuall side effects, Which really suck, But not just that, I feel it would be one of the best augmentors, and as far as abusing goes, my mother feel's more comfortable controling the drugs, so I would only get the dosage I am supposed to. Thats fine with me. As well it is supposed to be like cocaine, if you just over use it, it makes you more depressed, and I have this in my mind, and also one thing I can say about myself is, I have allot of will power, if I started feeling better thats all I would want. In saying that, any good nardil aumentation would be excellent right now! Back to the part of the addictive drugs. If the drugs are addictive and they are, I have read of people taking adderal xr and ritalin at the same time. Now if they didn't have a drug addiction before, they will still get addicted to this drug. And I know of that guy on another site, he takes the adderal xr, and klonopin for his SA, so I'm guessing he's been taking tose 2 addictive drugs for quite a while, and ritalin! He says it helps him amazingly, and he really does have allot of drug knowledge. I think he'e a pharmacist's helper or something like that.
As far as seeing my pdoc. just for the talks, it woulden't work. As soon as I'm refered to anther pdoc, I lose her alltogether, or maybe it's once I have my first appt. I'm not 100% sure. Either way that would be a no go.
Haha, lol, Yep I'm gonna pick my dream girl up, in my new car or truck on The day I get my license back, I think she'll be caught in the rain. It is funny though that you said that, unless I mentioned it, but I was thinking that hopefully by next summer I'll be feeling better, and thought once I have a way of getting around, it's time to look for a girl, one that has those beautiful eyes, and makes your heart skip a beat.
But unlike the one's in the past that were hadcore partiers like me, she'll be reserved, and quite, and we can just drive where ever the car takes us.lol.You like Clapton do you? Did you know that "Tears In Heaven" was wrote about/for his 4 year old son who fell out of a 53rd story building in his mothers friends condo and died. That made that song have so much more meaning to me. And like you said with the amazing guitarist he is. It must have took allot of courage to write and perform that song. It is one of my favourites as well.
The CBT, yes I am doing the journal, but as far as exposures go I'm not quite there yet. Don't get me wrong, I do beleive that cbt can work, and teach ways in how to stay in remission, but I just feel a little boost from some meds. may have to be there. As you said, about you feel strong potent drugs is the best answer for you, or something like that, well I feel the same way. I will continue the cbt, maybe i'm wrong, but I don't think so. She is there to talk to, at least, which helps. And I'll just take my time with the CBT.
My family, were always against drugs, but through allot of explanation, and them seeing me miserable, there coming around. As far as my pdoc. My mother really wanted me stick with this one. But After she has seen that since the nardil started, I didn't get along with pdoc., and this hadn't happened before, she doesn't really say, but I think she wants me to do whats best, otherwise she'd say something. She really didn't want me to end up with the so called drug pusher, they make him sound like he should be on some street corner. I think i'ts exageration, My father never did like my psychiatrist, he thought she was unprofessional after he went in and seen her dogs walking around, she does this for the kids she says. But he would find fault in any of them, he's really not a beleiver of all this drugs and therapy, but he does support me, and brings me there when ever I need him to. I also have an aunt, she is a big part of my life, and I talk to her all of the time about this, she wants me to wait it out and stay with my pdoc. or she did, It seems like all of them are seeing that I have more down days than usuall, becuase in there eyes I was pretty much cured, I wasn't, but I kept my spirits up and thats what the seen. So now they just say, well give it one more session and see how it goes, thats my plan. This is in 2 weeks, and I see other pdoc. for cbt next friday, so this can weigh in. They tell me that if I do get the pdoc. thats known to give out drugs easily, use your knowledge, becaue I have did allot of reserach on most A/D's, especially nardil, since I went it, and I feel that I would know, for the most part, what would help me if not, more research. I called today to all pdocs. secretaries, and for drug pusher I can prbably get set up for an appointment, as soon as she gets a refferal, which I have to see my GP for, which should only take 2 weeks, she'll call me to set me up for an appt. It was funny though, when she answered, I said I wanted to inquire about bcoming a patient, and she said, "what, you need methadone". I was like maybe they do like there drugs.lol. The other one said just send a refferal, and we'll see from there.
question: If I send a refferal, will I lose my pdoc. right away?
Well once again, thank you very much for seeing me through this hell. Remember I wanna help you in any way too. So I wanna hear more on jades journey next time as well.
your friend,
Shawn
Posted by Vincent_QC on November 28, 2008, at 7:43:38
In reply to Re: no stims/no benz BEST NARDIL AUGMENTION d/r, posted by that_guy23 on November 26, 2008, at 18:33:26
> On another note, I just know there is no chance of getting augmentation with this pdoc., not for nardil. If so it wouldn't be this soon. I've been on it for 12 weeks, so I have about 5-6 weeks to reach 4 months. I won't see her to raise my dose for another 2 weeks, leaves me on 90 for 3 weeks if she will even up it. If not that will be it, I will definately search for anotherpdoc.! She just seems more hard to get along with. This is only since the nardil, which I suggested. And have been suggesting things ever since, but I never really did this before. Do you think this would offend her? I mean I beleive a patient shoud have some input, actually allot, on the drugs that there going to be using, not the doctor! Especially if they've reserached the hell out of it. I mean am I wrong? Don't most people suggest drugs they would like to try? It sure seems like it, after reading people hearing of a drug on here and other forums, then the next thing you know, there on it.
>
I Was feeling exactly like this before, I always think that it was not my job to search on the web or in books about "good" drugs to help reduce my social phobia and anxiey disorder, but after so many years without getting any "positive" result and after a lot of frustrations to just listen to the doctors advise, I see that I had no choice and decide to be more involve and be able to decide myself witch drugs I will try and the ones that I don't want to try (especially Tricyclic who are really not helpfull with social phobia and anxiety, but strangly good for panic attacks and depression)...> As for that old life style and what I have done in the past, it's not the path I want to end up down again. And like you said I am gonna push hopefully to 4 months, what about you? you gonna stick it out? keep me posted on the progress.
> > I really have been pondering over whether to call another pdoc., but the second I see them I think I will lose her.
>Maybe it's a good idea just to wait a little bit. Your psychiatrist seem to be a good one and maybe she just want to be sure the not increase the dose too fast again to avoid side effects? IF she put you on the Nardil, she's probably more open than you think, since not a lot of psychiatrist now prescribe them, in fact the new psychiatrist generation seem to not know a lot of things about that kind of drugs...but they are the best documented and studied drugs, so I wonder why they don't give it more often, even in 2008, since I now by my own experience than the newer drugs can produce much more side effects than the simply all in one Nardil drug (dopamine,serotonin,noradrenaline, GABA).
I always think that a polypharmacy was not a good approach in social phobia and anxiety problems. Beldn too much drugs at the same times just make you feel worst. I prefer the monopharmacy approach, especially for social phobia.
I know that you want to recover fast, we all want this but if you want to recover too fast, it will not help. I just understand that a couple of weeks ago. I never listen or observe the prescription dosage my old psychiatrist gived to me, I was taking the double dose the first day and just upping my dosage to reach a high level, too much high level. Maybe it's why I fail to find something that's really work??? Maybe not?...A good example, when I start the Effexor-Xr, he put me on 37,5 mg/day...the original prescription was to up the dose by 37,5mg/week...but I begin at 225 mg the first day, I was suppose to take 225mg just 1 1/2 months after... I see the psychiatrist after and he was not very happy about that...he say stop at this dose...but I just increase it to 300 mg...I do the same with Cipralex...begin at 20 mg not 5 mg like he wanted...BUT all I had from getting high dose too fast was bad side effects and no improve at all for my social phobia. I just realise that I put too much stress on my body and my minds also. In fact it can be a reason why I drop out a lot of the drugs that I try, because I wanted them to work so fast and I didn't wait enought time to see what happen.
> It has been very hard, because I am sure there is no change in my SA. I was at a garage that my aunt had to go into, which I used to work. She had to drop off her car, so we had to go in and wait, I was so anxious and I don't know why. This is when I came home and went to bed, realizing twelve weeks gave me no progess.""
Social anxiety or social phobia, with agoraphobia or not, is a condition really hard to treat. Finding a good drug, usefulness for the specific "social anxiety" symptoms, seem to be a real challenge.
All the "newer" drugs seem to be usefulness to treat a number of other common co-morbidity disorders like depression, panic, general anxiety, and obsessive compulsive disorder but not very helpfull directly for Social Phobia, except of course the Nardil. But again, you have to take your time, don't do the same mistake than me and stop it after 2 months because you don't see any improvement of your social phobia on it. Try to take a close look at how you feel inside, i'm sure some of the others co-occurring you have fade a little bit???
Try to think about that and remember that if you want to be like you was before, it will probably never happen. I don't want to be negative but everybody involve, that's impossible to feel exxactly like you was before, especially since you know now what social phobia is...you will be all your life more attentive to your felling inside you and you will have a form of hypervigilance...
I think the main goal to reach is to first find a good drug and let it work even if it take more than 3 months, even 4 and find the good dosage also. After, work in your CTB on your problems, try to find why you are like this. Why you feel bad when you are in a social situation.
That's all the advise I can give to you...
> This sucks because somthing like provigil, which is a non-stim, but kinda acts as one, might help, or anything, It's getting much harder, and it all comes back to my doctor. Like I said she gave me 2 people, one is not a good pdoc., but seems to love prescribing drugs, the other one I'm not sure if he is as good, and I don't know how he would be about drugs. Shouldn't there be people I could see just to get options best for me, I mean it's my life.
>I also remember that you lack of energy. Remember that adding a stimulant on the top of it will not help at all. You will be more overstress, and more stress mean more social anxiety. Keep in mind that it's normal to feel less energic, to do insomnia or lacking the good energy, cause having a social phobia and anxiety problems drain out all your energy. Just wating to the Nardil to work on your social phobia symptoms and always think about the fact that you don't feel more well take a lot of your energy...
> Back to the sphycho, I mean psychchiatrist, oops. She also said to see how the cbt is going, and if I don't find it at least a little easier I am letting her know it's just not enough yet. Not that I want to quit, but a nudge would help it.
>You see, I think she's a good psychiatrist. She's maybe slow on the augmentation of the dose, she cares also about your CTB, that's another good point, she's not just a "drugs" freak...
> sorry about the rant, just started typing and guess I really needed to vent.
>
> Thanks for listening, and helping me.
>
> I would love your opinion on all of this.
>
> thanks,
> Shawn
>
>That's my advise, just take your time, you're not alone in that situation. I just begin 4 days ago the Nardil, again, after a bad hypotension problems I had on it in 2007. My new psychiatrist start me on 15 mg/day...that's nothing for me. Another time, I was a little bit frustrated about the small dose he ive to me, but I begin to understand that I just wanted to go too fast again. I'm suppose to up to 30 mg/day next week, after i'm not sure, I think with him, I will not be able to go to more than 60 mg...He seem very slow on writing prescription. I have also a insomnia problem and I wanted to add desyrel at night time, but he say no...but it's write in the facts sheet that you can take a low dose of trazadone with the Nardil if you have some insomnia...I think I have also to make a cross on this option, he will never let me take it at the same time. I will have to ask my family doctor to prescribe it to me...I See him the 3 december...I will not advise my new psychiatrist about that. You see, having a good family doctor at the same time than the psychiatrist can help sometimes...
So another time, take it slow, and also, take care of you, i'm sure you will feel better soon ;-)
Have a nice day ;-)
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