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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Fivefires on August 13, 2007, at 20:52:29
A week ago today, I ended a thirte*n year lov* relationship. I’ve not changed my clothes since the police came and served him w/ an O*rder of Prote*tion. (Just undies!)
I think I’ve worn a trail in the carpet from the bed to the bathroom to the kitchen and back.
Ya’ know the bla*k ho*e? I hope you don’t.
Recently, I’ve begun to think of it as 'the missing link’.
In a non-AD (I’m not on an antidepressant.) state like I’m in right now, I can have periodic suici*al ideation, but rationally tell myself I am loved and I love and I want to stay until it’s my time to go and I’m cool.
But, when I’m on an AD and have periodic suicidal ideation ‘the rational link’ which tells me I am loved and love and I want to stay until it’s my time, is nowhere to be found.
Can anyone relate to this?
I want to get back on my journey, but I’m really having a bad bout here. This is a big hurdle to get around. I don't want the relationship back.
I just don’t know what I want to do. I sort of feel like I don’t give a sh*t, or like just wasting away I think because I'm just tired, and there’s a bit of a I think I'm trapped in this town feeling going on as well.
Anyway, obviously, I’m going to need to choose an AD to get rid of nasty nowhere-getting thoughts. I’m pretty sure my Pdoc will call after this 4th attempt to reach him today.
If I weren’t alone, I’d not be so concerned about 'the missing link' because I’d be w/ someone who loves me and there would be someone to turn to in a crisis.
But, I am alone and I have to do this. I have no other choice. I’ve got to choose an AD to give me a jump start to move on.
I could just slap on an EMSAM and see what the hell happens.
Or, I could go w/ Effexor-XR for the, I think maybe, 5th time.
I’ve tried tricyclics, both SNRIs, all SSRIs except maybe Celexa, anti-psychs, and mood stabs, and I think said already, not sure re: MAOIs, would have been too long ago to remember. No significant relief w/ anything. Had like a 2hr awakening on Zoloft once, just to plummet to greater depths. Prozac causes anxiety. Effexor-XR has prob' been the most effective med I've been on. Cymbalta did the paradox and had increased pain. Maybe I should try an MAOI? Are the dietary restrictions really bad?
Please will some of you just throw out some med names here for me to consider. My docs gonna' ask me which one I want to try.
tks, 5f
Posted by Phillipa on August 13, 2007, at 22:29:12
In reply to AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 13, 2007, at 20:52:29
Five Fires didn't you once post that you took lyrica at a low dose and it calmed you allowed you to sleep. Since it agrees with you they say the higher doses are like an antidepressant maybe that? Love Phillipa
Posted by Fivefires on August 14, 2007, at 0:20:22
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger* » Fivefires, posted by Phillipa on August 13, 2007, at 22:29:12
I tried it at higher doses than 75mg p.m. and it was like it turned around and was completely ineffective. I have heard it does work very well at high doses for others though
I thought it helped w/ my sense of well-being a little when I was taking 75mg at h.s., but after reading about weight gain with it, I d.c.'d it, and don't seem to miss it.
Tks for idea.
5f
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2007, at 11:02:48
In reply to AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 13, 2007, at 20:52:29
Sorry to hear you're in a mess. {{{{{5f}}}}}
Okay, I'm confused.
If this is true...
> In a non-AD (I’m not on an antidepressant.) state like I’m in right now, I can have periodic suici*al ideation, but rationally tell myself I am loved and I love and I want to stay until it’s my time to go and I’m cool.
>
> But, when I’m on an AD and have periodic suicidal ideation ‘the rational link’ which tells me I am loved and love and I want to stay until it’s my time, is nowhere to be found.
....then this seems to contradict the above....> Anyway, obviously, I’m going to need to choose an AD to get rid of nasty nowhere-getting thoughts.
> But, I am alone and I have to do this. I have no other choice. I’ve got to choose an AD to give me a jump start to move on.
I know that feeling well. It's a highly focussed realization of need.
> Or, I could go w/ Effexor-XR for the, I think maybe, 5th time.Tried and true?
I hope you feel better, and soon.
Lar
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 14, 2007, at 17:24:31
In reply to AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 13, 2007, at 20:52:29
> A week ago today, I ended a thirte*n year lov* relationship. I’ve not changed my clothes since the police came and served him w/ an O*rder of Prote*tion. (Just undies!)
>
> I think I’ve worn a trail in the carpet from the bed to the bathroom to the kitchen and back.
>
> Ya’ know the bla*k ho*e? I hope you don’t.
>
> Recently, I’ve begun to think of it as 'the missing link’.
>
> In a non-AD (I’m not on an antidepressant.) state like I’m in right now, I can have periodic suici*al ideation, but rationally tell myself I am loved and I love and I want to stay until it’s my time to go and I’m cool.
>
> But, when I’m on an AD and have periodic suicidal ideation ‘the rational link’ which tells me I am loved and love and I want to stay until it’s my time, is nowhere to be found.
>
> Can anyone relate to this?
>
> I want to get back on my journey, but I’m really having a bad bout here. This is a big hurdle to get around. I don't want the relationship back.
>
> I just don’t know what I want to do. I sort of feel like I don’t give a sh*t, or like just wasting away I think because I'm just tired, and there’s a bit of a I think I'm trapped in this town feeling going on as well.
>
> Anyway, obviously, I’m going to need to choose an AD to get rid of nasty nowhere-getting thoughts. I’m pretty sure my Pdoc will call after this 4th attempt to reach him today.
>
> If I weren’t alone, I’d not be so concerned about 'the missing link' because I’d be w/ someone who loves me and there would be someone to turn to in a crisis.
>
> But, I am alone and I have to do this. I have no other choice. I’ve got to choose an AD to give me a jump start to move on.
>
> I could just slap on an EMSAM and see what the hell happens.
>
> Or, I could go w/ Effexor-XR for the, I think maybe, 5th time.
>
> I’ve tried tricyclics, both SNRIs, all SSRIs except maybe Celexa, anti-psychs, and mood stabs, and I think said already, not sure re: MAOIs, would have been too long ago to remember. No significant relief w/ anything. Had like a 2hr awakening on Zoloft once, just to plummet to greater depths. Prozac causes anxiety. Effexor-XR has prob' been the most effective med I've been on. Cymbalta did the paradox and had increased pain. Maybe I should try an MAOI? Are the dietary restrictions really bad?
>
> Please will some of you just throw out some med names here for me to consider. My docs gonna' ask me which one I want to try.
>
> tks, 5fHi fivefires...
I am really sorry you are feeling so bad. :( I can relate a bit with your feelings, and sometimes (well...a lot of times...heh.) also get caught in the deep darker places, and it seems almost surrealistic. But, it is real, at least in our minds. I think that it is quite smart and brave of you to be able to see it and call it.
How has your response to antipsychotics been? Have you ever talked to your doc about maybe combining, say, one small dose of an atypical with possibly, a small dose of an older typical one? I did a little bit of research and 'experimenting' on the topic, and found that this seemed to work for people who experience a sort of 'detachment', and in particular with suicidal thoughts, even without being 'psychotic'. I've read some stuff about low-dose 'Loxapine' effective and safe (in terms of EPS effects..)
It's funny (and kind of sad) about the myths regarding the typical antipsychotics. People talk about 'Haldol' like it 'ruins your soul', yet I am on a small but still quite average amount of it (Haldol) daily, and it has about 50-75x LESS side-effects then Seroquel or Zyprexa!! (In higher doses, though, I imagine Haldol is just as unpleasant.)
Now I supposedly have a bipolar element to my depression and anxiety, which is why I have a bad reaction to antidepressants on their own. But for some, (and coincidentally, they are finding more all the time) the above treatment both works and is safe.(And there are many older antipsychotics to pick from. Haldol is actually supposed to be the 'worst' as far as side-effects go. That has me a bit baffled and seriously wondering about the motives of many psychiatrists and the drug industry.)
I am still, really, 'experimenting', so we will see as more time goes by. I know there are 'experiments' going on with combining other things, like two mood stabilizers, and using much smaller doses of meds then 'usually' used. Unless there is big money to be made, no drug company is going to be looking to do these types of experiments. I brand it a 'D.I.Y.' approach, but always...always with caution. I hope you do seek help asap, and yes I know you've probably heard that a million times.:) Please take good care...
Best,
Jay
Posted by Fivefires on August 14, 2007, at 18:22:45
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger* » Fivefires, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2007, at 11:02:48
> Sorry to hear you're in a mess. {{{{{5f}}}}}
>
> Okay, I'm confused.
>
> If this is true...
>
> > In a non-AD (I’m not on an antidepressant.) state like I’m in right now, I can have periodic suici*al ideation, but rationally tell myself I am loved and I love and I want to stay until it’s my time to go and I’m cool.
> >
> > But, when I’m on an AD, and have periodic suicidal ideation (ADs do not cause me to have ideation. Maybe long ago they did. But now, it is a thought I have now and then.) ‘the rational link’ which tells me I am loved and love and I want to stay until it’s my time, is nowhere to be found, I sort of plummet into some 'black hole' and b4 I know it I've acted upon my bad thought.>
>I reworded the above a bit.
>
> ....then this seems to contradict the above....Maybe my rewording helped, but if not, I'll try say it again in another way.
Times when I've been on ADs, the thoughts that keep me from acting upon bad ideation are like 'skipped over' and I go straight into this place where I'm acting upon the thoughts.
The rational thought, 'this is wrong', doesn't follow the ideation as it does when I'm off an AD, like right now. But, I feel quite severely bad at this time.
My T called this a.m. and we talked about this.
She said it's common in borderline and this is the reason for the difficulty of treating BorderlinePD.
She mentioned a small dose of Risperdal.
I was going to maybe post about it and do a little googling. Atyp anti-psychs scare me a bit, but maybe I should try a very small dosage of one.
Am I still contradicting? (Or, maybe I'm not explaining correctly?)
>
> > Anyway, obviously, I’m going to need to choose an AD to get rid of nasty nowhere-getting thoughts.
>
> > But, I am alone and I have to do this. I have no other choice. I’ve got to choose an AD to give me a jump start to move on.
>Re: AD, now, after talking w/ T, think something other than an AD might be best.(?) She got me an appt w/ a Pdoc 2moro a.m.
About being alone, the side effects of an atypical anti-psych (I'm talking about NMS, tardive dyskineasia, and I'm supposing there are more, which can be so dangerous.), if they were to occur, I'd have no one here to maybe point them out to me. I guess I could post about them or call a nurseline. I've heard many sad stories that have frightened me. I do know to watch for fever as an alert of NMS, I believe.
>
> I know that feeling well. It's a highly focussed realization of need.
Yeah it really is.>
> > Or, I could go w/ Effexor-XR for the, I think maybe, 5th time.
>
> Tried and true?Not really.
I may have been on it in the past when I have acted upon bad thoughts.
I've been on it about 5x, it always effecting me a little differently, and that spanned many years so there's a good chance I was prob' on it at one of these times.
>
> I hope you feel better, and soon.
>
> Lar((((Thanks))) 5f
Posted by Phillipa on August 14, 2007, at 19:57:47
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 14, 2007, at 18:22:45
Oh that clears things up considerably you've discussed an antipsychotic with the pdoc already. I'd go with it then. You say small dose so I'd think there would be no worries about TD. You should be fine. Just make sure to tell someone your're changing meds. And from what you've posted in the past you seem to get a lot from the crisis line. Sounds like a good one and good luck tomorrow. Love Phillipa
Posted by Fivefires on August 14, 2007, at 20:25:05
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger* » Fivefires, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 14, 2007, at 17:24:31
Jay,
Just after responded to previous poster, had the onslaught of a vice-gripping anxiety attack which is still trying 'to do me in'. A generic 2mg Xanax hasn't touched it in 30min.
Read part of your followup and very interested.
Will get back 2u .. so sorry. 5f
Posted by Fivefires on August 15, 2007, at 9:04:37
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 14, 2007, at 20:25:05
Jay - Just deleted a response 2u so will begin again :-(
5f
Posted by Fivefires on August 15, 2007, at 10:27:34
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger* » Fivefires, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 14, 2007, at 17:24:31
> > Ya’ know the bla*k ho*e? I hope you don’t.
> >
> > Recently, I’ve begun to think of it as 'the missing link’.
> >
> > In a non-AD (I’m not on an antidepressant.) state like I’m in right now, I can have periodic suici*al ideation, but rationally tell myself I am loved and I love and I want to stay until it’s my time to go and I’m cool.
> >
> > But, when I’m on an AD and have periodic suicidal ideation ‘the rational link’ which tells me I am loved and love and I want to stay until it’s my time, is nowhere to be found.
> >
> > Can anyone relate to this?
> >
> > I want to get back on my journey, but I’m really having a bad bout here. This is a big hurdle to get around. I don't want the relationship back.
> >
> > I just don’t know what I want to do. I sort of feel like I don’t give a sh*t, or like just wasting away I think because I'm just tired, and there’s a bit of a I think I'm trapped in this town feeling going on as well.
> >
> > Anyway, obviously, I’m going to need to choose an AD to get rid of nasty nowhere-getting thoughts. I’m pretty sure my Pdoc will call after this 4th attempt to reach him today.
> >
> > If I weren’t alone, I’d not be so concerned about 'the missing link' because I’d be w/ someone who loves me and there would be someone to turn to in a crisis.
> >
> > But, I am alone and I have to do this. I have no other choice. I’ve got to choose an AD to give me a jump start to move on.
> >
> > I could just slap on an EMSAM and see what the hell happens.
> >
> > Or, I could go w/ Effexor-XR for the, I think maybe, 5th time.
> >
> > I’ve tried tricyclics, both SNRIs, all SSRIs except maybe Celexa, anti-psychs, and mood stabs, and I think said already, not sure re: MAOIs, would have been too long ago to remember. No significant relief w/ anything. Had like a 2hr awakening on Zoloft once, just to plummet to greater depths. Prozac causes anxiety. Effexor-XR has prob' been the most effective med I've been on. Cymbalta did the paradox and had increased pain. Maybe I should try an MAOI? Are the dietary restrictions really bad?
> >
> > Please will some of you just throw out some med names here for me to consider. My docs gonna' ask me which one I want to try.
> >
> > tks, 5f
>
> Hi fivefires...
>
> I am really sorry you are feeling so bad. :( I can relate a bit with your feelings, and sometimes (well...a lot of times...heh.) also get caught in the deep darker places, and it seems almost surrealistic. But, it is real, at least in our minds. I think that it is quite smart and brave of you to be able to see it and call it.
>Just lost 30m of followup re: googling back and forth, and not saving, duh.
Thank you. Yes. If ever psychosis were defined as 'a split second (to me) of lost time where rational right and wrong disappear', I'd say I've experienced it, in these moments(?) I do things to hurt myself only. The end result of the action we're discussing makes you tend to set it far apart from actions of everyday life, but 'maybe' it's not so far apart.(?) It would never occur to me an argument w/ a loved one could result from 'a missing link' 'a little black hole' or 'detachment'. But, hmmmmm, I have to say Jay, I have somehow pushed a lot of people out of my life. There are only a couple exceptions and they have an unconditional nature of loving. I've never seen or heard things that aren't there. I feel like I may have just said something important.(?)
My grandmother was smart and full of wit. She was having double vision. They gave her Haldol in the hospital and 'she lost her mind and it never came back'. I'm supposing NMS. Wish I'd been there and known of this.
I met a friend which I got along very well w/ who is on Haldol during the day. She was clear, not yakky, and I like her. If any1 in my fam' thought for a second I would take what my grandmother took, they'd prob' lock me up to save me! So yes there is certainly good and bad here.
The drug you mention, the typical, I've hardly ever heard of it. Printed w/o author for my ref.
You must have found some biopharmacological reason for having some component of a typical alongside an atypical relieve this ‘lapse in rational thinking’ in this situation? Could u further explain?
Oh wow .. below is some of post thought I'd lost!!
My experience is w/ just one atyp antipsych, it was Seroquel. When admitted for nervous system break*own, given Seroquel, Trileptal, & Valium. When got home, called a girlfriend and said 'I feel like the laughing Buddha, kinda silly happy and my stomach is sticking out here like I'm pregnant or have developed another appendage!' I'm not a woman w/ an hourglass shape, but instead have a runner's body type, was a runner b4 spinal injury, and this weight didn't distribute itself, just clustered around my waist. My appearance has been a huge part of my life. I'm a magnet for the 'I think I'm all that' men. I've been thankful for the blessing, but sometimes wonder if it's a curse. I'm still looking for a good man and this is really gonna' sound selfish and snobbish, but unless I am physically attracked to his 'I'm all that demeanor' I'll not be happy w/ him. And, w/o my looks and my body, 'I've been told and I've believed I haven't much else to my being'. W/ this in mind, I recently posted re well-being w/o weight gain. I've got rimonabant, tianeptine, amisulpride, and metformin written here on a sheet of paper. I'm really really scared to be fat or body weight/height disproportionate. And, I believe I have the right to argue I cannot tolerate this side effect, if or when, it may occur, if or when I go w/ an atyp antipsych. The mood stabs give me HAs and I've wondered if this has some connection to my spinal cord injury.(?)
> It's funny (and kind of sad) about the myths regarding the typical antipsychotics. People talk about 'Haldol' like it 'ruins your soul', yet I am on a small but still quite average amount of it (Haldol) daily, and it has about 50-75x LESS side-effects then Seroquel or Zyprexa!!>
>This blows my mind! For real? Any thought about weight gain side effect re: Haldol v Seroquel v Zyprexa?
>(In higher doses, though, I imagine Haldol is just as unpleasant.)
>
> Now I supposedly have a bipolar element to my depression and anxiety, which is why I have a bad reaction to antidepressants on their own. But for some, (and coincidentally, they are finding more all the time) the above treatment both works and is safe.(And there are many older antipsychotics to pick from. Haldol is actually supposed to be the 'worst' as far as side-effects go. That has me a bit baffled and seriously wondering about the motives of many psychiatrists and the drug industry.)
>
> I am still, really, 'experimenting', so we will see as more time goes by. I know there are 'experiments' going on with combining other things, like two mood stabilizers, and using much smaller doses of meds then 'usually' used. Unless there is big money to be made, no drug company is going to be looking to do these types of experiments. I brand it a 'D.I.Y.' approach, but always...always with caution. I hope you do seek help asap, and yes I know you've probably heard that a million times.:) Please take good care...
>OMG, here’s more (Or is this repetition?) of not-lost followup. I'm so sorry to submit like this, but I'm confused now and appt time getting closer.
> How has your response to antipsychotics been? Have you ever talked to your doc about maybe combining, say, one small dose of an atypical with possibly, a small dose of an older typical one? I did a little bit of research and 'experimenting' on the topic, and found that this seemed to work for people who experience a sort of 'detachment', and in particular with suicidal thoughts, even without being 'psychotic'. I've read some stuff about low-dose 'Loxapine' effective and safe (in terms of EPS effects..) >My experience w/ atyp anti-psych, Seroquel, (I was prescribed it and Trileptal along w/ Valium when had nervous system breakdown.) was a sort of 'I think I feel kind of happy and funny, and I'm getting real fat' as I remember feeling like the laughing Buddha sitting on my bed and telling this to a girlfriend. (I do not have a hourglass women's build. Instead I'm built like 'a runner', ... I used to run. I hated this weight accumulating around my waistline and dc'd it w/o a prob'. (Life changes shoved me around and being on Valium I just sort of followed the leader, landing here in a nonstimulating environment, still it being very necessary to, first and foremost to control a NOW SERIOUS anxiety problem. It has to be my first priority to prevent a b*eakdown as traumatizing as it was from EVER repeating. I'm height/weight good and afraid of bad body image, and judgement by, well, men, as I still hope to find a wonderful relationship. I've been blessed w/ my appearance and it's not unusual for me to believe 'this is the only thing I have going for me'.(?) It's funny, and not, other times I think it a curse, not a blessing. I'm a magnet for 'I think I'm the best' type men.
In my quest to have my cake and eat it too, I've begun some posts like 'well-being w/o weight gain', and made note of meds i.e. Acomplia, Rimonabant, Tianeptine, Amisulpride, Metformin
Trileptal (Mood stab. I believe, like Lamictal) alone, cause HAs. I'd personally wondered if this might have had anything to do w/ a C4-5, 5-6 spinal injury, by way of aggravation by the med.(?) Did I say I dc'd first the Seroquel, then the Trileptal a week or so later, after the quote brea*down of cns unquote.> It's funny (and kind of sad) about the myths regarding the typical antipsychotics. People talk about 'Haldol' like it 'ruins your soul', yet I am on a small but still quite average amount of it (Haldol) daily, and it has about 50-75x LESS side-effects then Seroquel or Zyprexa!!
>Well my grandmother was given it and NMS went unnoticed and she 'lost her mind'. She had a quick wit and strength b4. Very sad. I wasn't there so don't know dosage. I met a nice girl here who, like you, was on it, and 'we really communicated well and I've often wondered, after prior re: grandmother how she could take it and be 'so cool'.
>(In higher doses, though, I imagine Haldol is just as unpleasant.)
>
> Now I supposedly have a bipolar element to my depression and anxiety, which is why I have a bad reaction to antidepressants on their own. But for some, (and coincidentally, they are finding more all the time) the above treatment both works and is safe.(And there are many older antipsychotics to pick from. Haldol is actually supposed to be the 'worst' as far as side-effects go. That has me a bit baffled and seriously wondering about the motives of many psychiatrists and the drug industry.)
>
> I am still, really, 'experimenting', so we will see as more time goes by. I know there are 'experiments' going on with combining other things, like two mood stabilizers, and using much smaller doses of meds then 'usually' used. Unless there is big money to be made, no drug company is going to be looking to do these types of experiments. I brand it a 'D.I.Y.' approach, but always...always with caution. I hope you do seek help asap, and yes I know you've probably heard that a million times.:) Please take good care...
>If you're there Jay, can u give me a quick explaination of why a *dash of an atypical and a typical antipsychotic seem to work well for this sort of detachment*?
I'm going to have to post this as is because I need to begin getting ready to see Pdoc.
> Best,
> Jay
U2! Tks so very much. Very nice of you to care to share this interesting knowledge and some things you’ve run across and of course your feelings. 5f
Posted by belljar on August 17, 2007, at 19:48:41
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by Fivefires on August 15, 2007, at 10:27:34
HI Fivefires
sorry i dont' have any drug answers, although the few weeks I spent on risperdal I was really happy. But I never found a drug that could alter reality enough to make pain completely disappear. And when your reality sux, it just... sux. period.
I just remember feeling like you describe, after leaving a relationship and wanted to say that I hope and pray that the healing happens soon. Drugs or no drugs. Have you thought of hitting the travelzoo web site and going to a far away place for a month, let the old drugs get out of your system. Then when you get back it will all feel better and you can start again.
It always worked for me...... No drug in the world will fix that basic life change feeling, it just SUX no matter what you do. Change the scenery. Go to southern France and drink wine and eat chocolate and read Simone de Beauvoir. You can find cheap flights.
It will get good again. I promise.
good luck
Belljar.
Posted by Fivefires on August 19, 2007, at 15:30:41
In reply to Re: AD Fear - The Missing Link *Trigger*, posted by belljar on August 17, 2007, at 19:48:41
Yes. I've thought of this belljar, and it's funny because the tag they'd have put on my luggage would have been SUX!
I can't go there; not the way I did in the past, so could be more damaging than helpful.
No other option re: $ constraints.
I'm seeing this new Pdoc next week.
Dunno' what to do; kinda' in a jam here.
tks4caring, 5f
This is the end of the thread.
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