![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 8:34:20
This is not news,HOWEVER just to share my experiance,as far as your common Maois,Parnate/Nardil/Liq deprenyl/emsam,
One thing a new person migt want to consider before hand.
With exception of course,if you choose to go on one of these,take head of a very VERY likly chance you will devolp insomnia.Maois impact sleep,its a side effect that is simply extremly common.I personaly feel a person going on one might actualy benifit from this,how so?Well.....
1. Ive noticed that letting the drug actualy keep you up half,if not an entire night,will impact its therputic effect when taking it the next morning.
Its only natural to think that a strong drug will have a different effect on a person in regards to the sleep they had.
For example,coffee on a person who slept well usualy,(if they are a coffee drinker) will give them just enough nudge to awaken them to the degree of light stimulation.
Now coffee on a person up all night,can create a maniac type of feel,look,i know ive seen people up all night down coffee,and well there eyes dilate and it looks as if they are on a speed ball,they look high,sometimes talking fast and acting very maniac.
Now again i cant speak for everyone,however i found this to be true for myself.My maoi dose is decedied upon the amount of sleep i had.When im out of ambien and not sleeping,i respond very badly to parnate.
I say this to possably give new users a head start,meaning perhaps prepare for this,speak to your docter and begin or have in place a sleep aid right from the start,as insomnia is usualy worse on maois at the start.
I personaly would not worry to much about having to use a sleep aid on this level.I know people have beliefs on using sleep aids,HOWEVER understand that your not using it from left field,your using it to combat a serious side effect that can alter your success on the drug.
Last example is parnate can sometimes cause extreme fatigue,for me the actual best remedy has been a simple caffiene tab of 200 mg.My faimly looks at me like im crazy,and they are half right,alone id NEVER EVER want or be able to tolerate pure caffiene,HOWEVER using it to combat this fatique,well on these occasions the strong stimulation is barly appearent,and if it does its job the most that i feel is less fatigue from the parnate.
Hopefully this makes sense,HAPPY NEW YEAR BTW,lets hope we see more success both here and everywhere and take a more steeper step forward aganist this horrid illness in 2007.
Posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 9:07:30
In reply to General Maoi Tip, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 8:34:20
Thanks, Will. Happy New Year to you to. I wish for you only the best.
One of the things that happens to me when an MAOI is going to work well is that I experience near total insomnia. This time around with Nardil, I did not experience insomnia at all, and gleaned only a brief and mild antidepressant response. I had been optimistic despite this, though. I try not to pretend that my current understanding of the brain is sufficient to predict response versus non-response to treatments. However, I bet I could get one hell of a rebound mania if I were to discontinue the nortriptyline cold turkey and continue the Nardil. I've experienced this twice with Nardil and and other TCAs (imipramine and amitriptyline).
Do you have any ideas on what else I can add to Nardil? At this point, I think it makes sense for me to drop the Nardil so I can move on to other things. I have had to temporarily discontinue it because of side effects at 75mg. I have been fainting and unable to urinate. This is most certainly potentiated by the nortriptyline.
Currently:Nardil (temporarily discontinued)
nortriptyline 100mg
Lamictal 150mg
Topamax 100mg
Abilify 10mg
- Scott
------------------------------------
> This is not news,HOWEVER just to share my experiance,as far as your common Maois,Parnate/Nardil/Liq deprenyl/emsam,
>
> One thing a new person migt want to consider before hand.
>
>
> With exception of course,if you choose to go on one of these,take head of a very VERY likly chance you will devolp insomnia.
>
> Maois impact sleep,its a side effect that is simply extremly common.I personaly feel a person going on one might actualy benifit from this,how so?Well.....
>
> 1. Ive noticed that letting the drug actualy keep you up half,if not an entire night,will impact its therputic effect when taking it the next morning.
>
> Its only natural to think that a strong drug will have a different effect on a person in regards to the sleep they had.
>
> For example,coffee on a person who slept well usualy,(if they are a coffee drinker) will give them just enough nudge to awaken them to the degree of light stimulation.
>
> Now coffee on a person up all night,can create a maniac type of feel,look,i know ive seen people up all night down coffee,and well there eyes dilate and it looks as if they are on a speed ball,they look high,sometimes talking fast and acting very maniac.
>
> Now again i cant speak for everyone,however i found this to be true for myself.My maoi dose is decedied upon the amount of sleep i had.When im out of ambien and not sleeping,i respond very badly to parnate.
>
> I say this to possably give new users a head start,meaning perhaps prepare for this,speak to your docter and begin or have in place a sleep aid right from the start,as insomnia is usualy worse on maois at the start.
>
> I personaly would not worry to much about having to use a sleep aid on this level.I know people have beliefs on using sleep aids,HOWEVER understand that your not using it from left field,your using it to combat a serious side effect that can alter your success on the drug.
>
>
> Last example is parnate can sometimes cause extreme fatigue,for me the actual best remedy has been a simple caffiene tab of 200 mg.
>
> My faimly looks at me like im crazy,and they are half right,alone id NEVER EVER want or be able to tolerate pure caffiene,HOWEVER using it to combat this fatique,well on these occasions the strong stimulation is barly appearent,and if it does its job the most that i feel is less fatigue from the parnate.
>
> Hopefully this makes sense,HAPPY NEW YEAR BTW,lets hope we see more success both here and everywhere and take a more steeper step forward aganist this horrid illness in 2007.
Posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 10:13:32
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » willyee, posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 9:07:30
Well i had a very short lived trial on Nardil,i know many pro users will argue this is the case,and they are prob right.
HOWEVER the initial feeling was just too scary,and had me running off it.I also could not shake the side effect profile from my thoughts.The loss of libido seemed inavoidable,even chairman had a hard time overcomming this,if in fact he ever did.
With that said,i would ask why you are on lamictal,plus topamax so early on.Do you feel its possable these two strong drugs at times known to be sedating or de activitaing drugs,could be halting any stimulative benifit or response from nardil?
Im curious why u did not wait until seeing how steep nardil would be before adding these stablizers?
I know there was a big argument over the pharmocology involved in agreement to the OLD vs New nardil,however even with scientific logic,i personaly CANT blow off an entire COMMUNITY and MOVEMENT that exsists off hundreds of veteran users who simply chucked this nardil saying it is not effective as the old.
For the side effect profile,and old/new issue i turned away from nardil,something i easly would at this point try.
That said,the only things i remeber being added to nardil to enhance it were Provigil,and with caution ,i repeat caution,WELLBUTRIN & various amphetmines,i.e ritalin,dexadrine etc.
I like you am not getting a strong enough response from parnate,i do HOWEVER get one from the overseas version,so currently im making do with combos until i can obtain more of the parnate that actualy stimulated and worked for me.
i POSTED this site a few times,its 100 percent about nardil,http://www.anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html
The old/new aside,there are many general maoi tips mentioned here.
Also i would imagine ACE would know a great deal on working with nardil as hes been on it as u know a long time.
Good luck scott,glad you sound a lot better than u did not to long ago,you had many people worried.
Please feel free to share any parnate tips as well as i know u were on it,and at the moment im struggling to make the brand i have do anything for me.
Thanks.
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 10:15:56
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » willyee, posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 9:07:30
Scott fainting and not able to urinate. How horrible for you. May the New Year bring you success. Love Phillipa
Posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:01:48
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » willyee, posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 9:07:30
Scott, you've been so dedicated through your sufferings and turmoil. I have deep respect for you. I wish you only the best.
You mentioned the idea of getting manic if stopping the nortriptyline. I have a hunch that might happen if stopping nardil too? I only say that because it seems that whenever I have stopped a reuptake inhibitor, or anything that merely increases neurotransmitter levels, I get that brief feeling of being just fine. It has sparked in me a theory that some people's depression relates more to neurotransmitter release and firing, rather than the density of those neurotransmitters. Increase the firing rate and they feel better. Neuro reuptake inhibitors and such slow down firing initially until readjustment occurs, but maybe firing never really does recover to where it was, and even if it did it wasn't enough firing to begin with. When we stop a reuptake inhibitor or maoi, the brain maybe senses the lack of neuros that is is used to and immediately starts firing more? But quickly adjusts as the change settles?
Pure theory on my part. If it had any truth to it all, it might mean you would do better with a stimulant and without mood stabilizers? Just a wild new years thought.
Posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 15:03:39
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » SLS, posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:01:48
> Scott, you've been so dedicated through your sufferings and turmoil. I have deep respect for you. I wish you only the best.
Thanks. :-)
> You mentioned the idea of getting manic if stopping the nortriptyline. I have a hunch that might happen if stopping nardil too?Bullseye, yes. I didn't want to complicate things, though.
> I only say that because it seems that whenever I have stopped a reuptake inhibitor, or anything that merely increases neurotransmitter levels, I get that brief feeling of being just fine. It has sparked in me a theory that some people's depression relates more to neurotransmitter release and firing, rather than the density of those neurotransmitters. Increase the firing rate and they feel better. Neuro reuptake inhibitors and such slow down firing initially until readjustment occurs, but maybe firing never really does recover to where it was, and even if it did it wasn't enough firing to begin with. When we stop a reuptake inhibitor or maoi, the brain maybe senses the lack of neuros that is is used to and immediately starts firing more? But quickly adjusts as the change settles?
> Pure theory on my part.A pretty heady one, too.
> If it had any truth to it all, it might mean you would do better with a stimulant and without mood stabilizers? Just a wild new years thought.
I tried that early in my treatment history. I felt improved for a few hours immediately after taking the first dose. Thereafter, it just made me sleepy for the next week.
I appreciate the thought and energy you devoted to my situation. It is refreshingly positive. I only wish that I could return the favor right now. Unfortunately, I am pretty much without thought or energy. What little I have is focused on preparing for survival and avoiding negative outlook. I guess I am in a preservationist mode right now. I still feel brighter than I would without the Nardil, though, so I guess things might get rougher down the road. I have skipped three days of taking Nardil, but there is surely some significant inhibition left. I am just now beginning to walk without hypotension and regaining the ability to pee without difficulty. Today would be a good day to restart it at perhaps 45mg. I see my doctor tomorrow, so I'll wait before making a decision.
I hope the New Year has a surprise in store for you. You deserve it. Your resilience is extraordinary. Be careful of eddies of negative energy disguised as objectivity, though. Your head will remain above water for only so long as you are dragged lower and lower before you are finally sucked up by the vortex and find yourself well below the surface. You will find nothing below you for support. Everyone else seems to be too interested in riding the vortex. It takes a lot of work to swim upwards against the currents of negative energy and hopelessness left in the wake of such vortices because you swallowed and internalized so much of it. Let your mistakes be your own.
I like the advice you give, and hope that you will remain available to give it.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 15:17:28
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 10:13:32
Hi Will.
Is there anything in particular that you wanted to ask about Parnate?
- Scott
Posted by djmmm on January 2, 2007, at 9:41:39
In reply to General Maoi Tip, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 8:34:20
> This is not news,HOWEVER just to share my experiance,as far as your common Maois,Parnate/Nardil/Liq deprenyl/emsam,
>
> One thing a new person migt want to consider before hand.
>
>
> With exception of course,if you choose to go on one of these,take head of a very VERY likly chance you will devolp insomnia.
>
> Maois impact sleep,its a side effect that is simply extremly common.I personaly feel a person going on one might actualy benifit from this,how so?Well.....
>
> 1. Ive noticed that letting the drug actualy keep you up half,if not an entire night,will impact its therputic effect when taking it the next morning.
>
> Its only natural to think that a strong drug will have a different effect on a person in regards to the sleep they had.
>
> For example,coffee on a person who slept well usualy,(if they are a coffee drinker) will give them just enough nudge to awaken them to the degree of light stimulation.
>
> Now coffee on a person up all night,can create a maniac type of feel,look,i know ive seen people up all night down coffee,and well there eyes dilate and it looks as if they are on a speed ball,they look high,sometimes talking fast and acting very maniac.
>
> Now again i cant speak for everyone,however i found this to be true for myself.My maoi dose is decedied upon the amount of sleep i had.When im out of ambien and not sleeping,i respond very badly to parnate.
>
> I say this to possably give new users a head start,meaning perhaps prepare for this,speak to your docter and begin or have in place a sleep aid right from the start,as insomnia is usualy worse on maois at the start.
>
> I personaly would not worry to much about having to use a sleep aid on this level.I know people have beliefs on using sleep aids,HOWEVER understand that your not using it from left field,your using it to combat a serious side effect that can alter your success on the drug.
>
>
> Last example is parnate can sometimes cause extreme fatigue,for me the actual best remedy has been a simple caffiene tab of 200 mg.
>
> My faimly looks at me like im crazy,and they are half right,alone id NEVER EVER want or be able to tolerate pure caffiene,HOWEVER using it to combat this fatique,well on these occasions the strong stimulation is barly appearent,and if it does its job the most that i feel is less fatigue from the parnate.
>
> Hopefully this makes sense,HAPPY NEW YEAR BTW,lets hope we see more success both here and everywhere and take a more steeper step forward aganist this horrid illness in 2007.I've taken Nardil, Parnate, and now Selegiline (liquid deprenyl citrate). Both Nardil and Parnate caused some degree of insomnia. On Nardil, I simply slept less-- I typically woke up at 5 in the morning. With Parnate, I had slightly more problems getting to sleep, but overall sleep was fine. My solution (after trying many sleep medications) was melatonin. It seems to have "corrected" any sleep problem associated with my use of MAOIs. FWIW, I haven't had any problems with sleep while on Selegiline-- however, I do take 3mg of melatonin every night...
For Parnate users, taking your second daily dose before noon, helps tremendously with the insomnia I did for me, at least). I always thought it was interesting that Nardil caused more sleep problems for me (insomina, sleep attacks, REM rebound) since it was less stimulating than Parnate...For what it's worth, the MAOIs have saved my life-- I'd take dealing with insomnia over contemplating suicide anyday.
If anyone cares...
currently taking:
4mg Selegiline (liquid deprenyl citrate)
.5mg of Klonopin (down from 4mg!)
500mg of phenyethylamine
multi amino acid supplement
muti-vitamin
super b-complex
melatonin
Posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 10:31:01
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip, posted by djmmm on January 2, 2007, at 9:41:39
Phenyethylamine, not phenylalanine? Is it similar? I know phenylalanine augments selegeline nicely...but never heard anything about phenyethylamine before.
Posted by NYCguy on January 2, 2007, at 11:05:24
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip, posted by djmmm on January 2, 2007, at 9:41:39
>
> I've taken Nardil, Parnate, and now Selegiline (liquid deprenyl citrate).Is there a reason that you came off Parnate and Nardil to try the l-deprenyl? Do these meds poop out on people often? What has been your experience?
Thanks!
Posted by djmmm on January 2, 2007, at 21:37:48
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » djmmm, posted by NYCguy on January 2, 2007, at 11:05:24
>
> >
> > I've taken Nardil, Parnate, and now Selegiline (liquid deprenyl citrate).
>
> Is there a reason that you came off Parnate and Nardil to try the l-deprenyl? Do these meds poop out on people often? What has been your experience?
>
> Thanks!I tried nardil first, and was on it for some time before it became "temporarily unavailable" due to manufacturing problems/reformulation. During this time, I switched to Parnate, which was also very effective. I spent some time switching between the two, for various reasons-- unrelated to efficacy. Neither med ever really "pooped out"
I take selegiline now because it is very easy to titrate the dose-- it helps with mild depresson, anxiety, increasing motivation, and decreasing apathy.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 3, 2007, at 2:16:36
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » djmmm, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 10:31:01
> Phenyethylamine, not phenylalanine?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding phenyethylamine and phenylalanine to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061218/msgs/718789.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by tessellated on January 4, 2007, at 15:36:22
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » willyee, posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 9:07:30
yep, i hate that bitter pill. i only get the parnate "golden mean" after having taken it for fourteen hours. then it turns me into some vampire like superhuman, working all night 36hrs etc...then crashing for 12-14.
makes sleeping with a partner difficult.
i'm a tad fearful of the manic potential insomnia itself has.
so i've switched over to milnacipran, because of it chemical similarity to parnate. its more often compared to cymbalta due to its SNARI profile. damn stuff isn't in the states, but is worth looking into.Scott,
Not to be blunt, but wow you got a heck of a line up going on there. Layer after layer of anticonvulsants/antipsycho's, i would imagine would give anyone a zombie ride. i think i lost it trying to combine seroquel with parnate, passing out convulsing, etc.i'm tending to err on the side of minimizing polypharmacy options, because there are no controls, and so many variables, including different rates of receptor adaptation.
i just took a break of about two months from any constant meds to see what my baseline was, and all the paranoia/mania just dissapeared. i almost think i have to give my neurons a break a few months a year or i'd get swallowed up by a well of pills...
obviously you've spent time developing this cocktail, so this is nothing more than a common sense suggestion: reduce variables.
it sounds ridiculous, but realizing my baseline didn't involve paranoia/anxiety/mania, was a HUGE relief. even though i feel like a potatoe-tired etc, it feels like i have a clear picture that i'm not inherently bipolar.
you got a lot of neural inhibition happening in both the membrane pumps and through gaba, not to mention whatever the heck the monoamines are doing. i think anyone would feel pretty leaden on your line up.
i know abstaining/tapering is never the most fun option, but personally i don't think i ever wanna mix meds (and my mind) up quite that deeply.
what the heck does a neuron do when you're hitting it with simultaneous agonists/antagonists?
best,
l8
> One of the things that happens to me when an MAOI is going to work well is that I experience near total insomnia. > Currently:
>
> Nardil (temporarily discontinued)
> nortriptyline 100mg
> Lamictal 150mg
> Topamax 100mg
> Abilify 10mg
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> > This is not news,HOWEVER just to share my experiance,as far as your common Maois,Parnate/Nardil/Liq deprenyl/emsam,
> >
> > One thing a new person migt want to consider before hand.
> >
> >
> > With exception of course,if you choose to go on one of these,take head of a very VERY likly chance you will devolp insomnia.
> >
> > Maois impact sleep,its a side effect that is simply extremly common.I personaly feel a person going on one might actualy benifit from this,how so?Well.....
> >
> > 1. Ive noticed that letting the drug actualy keep you up half,if not an entire night,will impact its therputic effect when taking it the next morning.
> >
> > Its only natural to think that a strong drug will have a different effect on a person in regards to the sleep they had.
> >
> > For example,coffee on a person who slept well usualy,(if they are a coffee drinker) will give them just enough nudge to awaken them to the degree of light stimulation.
> >
> > Now coffee on a person up all night,can create a maniac type of feel,look,i know ive seen people up all night down coffee,and well there eyes dilate and it looks as if they are on a speed ball,they look high,sometimes talking fast and acting very maniac.
> >
> > Now again i cant speak for everyone,however i found this to be true for myself.My maoi dose is decedied upon the amount of sleep i had.When im out of ambien and not sleeping,i respond very badly to parnate.
> >
> > I say this to possably give new users a head start,meaning perhaps prepare for this,speak to your docter and begin or have in place a sleep aid right from the start,as insomnia is usualy worse on maois at the start.
> >
> > I personaly would not worry to much about having to use a sleep aid on this level.I know people have beliefs on using sleep aids,HOWEVER understand that your not using it from left field,your using it to combat a serious side effect that can alter your success on the drug.
> >
> >
> > Last example is parnate can sometimes cause extreme fatigue,for me the actual best remedy has been a simple caffiene tab of 200 mg.
> >
> > My faimly looks at me like im crazy,and they are half right,alone id NEVER EVER want or be able to tolerate pure caffiene,HOWEVER using it to combat this fatique,well on these occasions the strong stimulation is barly appearent,and if it does its job the most that i feel is less fatigue from the parnate.
> >
> > Hopefully this makes sense,HAPPY NEW YEAR BTW,lets hope we see more success both here and everywhere and take a more steeper step forward aganist this horrid illness in 2007.
>
>
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2007, at 6:27:12
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip-SLS, posted by tessellated on January 4, 2007, at 15:36:22
> yep, i hate that bitter pill. i only get the parnate "golden mean" after having taken it for fourteen hours. then it turns me into some vampire like superhuman, working all night 36hrs etc...then crashing for 12-14.
Have you tried to use benzodiazepines for sleep and keep your sleep-wake cycle as normal as possible? When I was on Parnate + desipramine, it was the only way I could sleep at all. I used a combination of Halcion + Ativan. I don't recommend Halcion, though. It can cause rebound anxiety and even provoke mania in susceptible individuals. You can try the Ativan first. If it is unable to put you to sleep, you can either add a more potent short acting drug like Sonata, or consider using 25-50mg of Seroquel.
> i'm a tad fearful of the manic potential insomnia itself has.
Yup.
> so i've switched over to milnacipran, because of it chemical similarity to parnate.
Hmm! I didn't know that. I have been interested in that drug, but not for that reason. Now you've got me more interested.
> its more often compared to cymbalta due to its SNARI profile. damn stuff isn't in the states, but is worth looking into.
I believe it is being looked at in the US for treating fibromyalgia. I think it has a good chance of getting approved.
> Scott,
> Not to be blunt, but wow you got a heck of a line up going on there.Why, thank you. ;-)
> Layer after layer of anticonvulsants/antipsycho's, i would imagine would give anyone a zombie ride. i think i lost it trying to combine seroquel with parnate, passing out convulsing, etc.
Well, forget about my Seroquel suggestion.
> i'm tending to err on the side of minimizing polypharmacy options, because there are no controls, and so many variables, including different rates of receptor adaptation.
> i just took a break of about two months from any constant meds to see what my baseline was, and all the paranoia/mania just dissapeared.Do you have any guesses as to which drugs might have been causing you problems?
There is sometimes a rebound improvement immediately after the discontinuation of drugs, although I wouldn't know if that were to apply to you. I hope you remain improved.
> obviously you've spent time developing this cocktail, so this is nothing more than a common sense suggestion: reduce variables.
Thanks. I might try to discontinue the Abilify soon.
> it sounds ridiculous, but realizing my baseline didn't involve paranoia/anxiety/mania, was a HUGE relief.
Let's hope it's not only a rebound improvement. One tends to think of depression when it comes to this effect. I haven't heard of it with mania and paranoia.
> you got a lot of neural inhibition happening in both the membrane pumps and through gaba, not to mention whatever the heck the monoamines are doing. i think anyone would feel pretty leaden on your line up.
Actually, each of the drugs I'm on add to an increase in mental energy and clarity. I am less depressed in general. As you said, I have settled on these drugs after years of experimentation. I have tried to discontinue each drug one at a time to evaluate its importance to the treatment regime. Abilify is the one that I have yet to experiment with. I have remained on it because I know it has an anti-suicide effect much like Zyprexa. However, I don't reach that state often, and perhaps I could use it only during such difficult times. I did experience a noticeable increase in mental energy and motivation when I first started taking Abilify, but who knows if that effect has persisted.
> what the heck does a neuron do when you're hitting it with simultaneous agonists/antagonists?
At this point, I try to strike a balance between deduction and empiricism with greater weight given to empiricism. I think we sometimes stumble over ourselves, thinking that we can somehow deduce how drugs and drug combinations will affect us given the relatively crude understanding of the brain and pharmacology that science has so far produced. That leaves trial and error. I just try to make sure that I don't pretend to be smarter than the scientists. As it happens, I don't think there are any antagonistic pharmacodynamics between the drugs I am taking. I could be wrong. Out of curiosity, do you see any?
Thanks again.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2007, at 6:30:59
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip-SLS, posted by tessellated on January 4, 2007, at 15:36:22
Currently:
nortriptyline 100mg
Nardil 60mg
Lamictal 150mg
Topamax 100mg
Abilify 10mg
I restarted Nardil. I'm hoping that I'm not developing a mild serotonin syndrome when combined with nortriptyline.
- Scott
Posted by tessellated on January 5, 2007, at 14:56:11
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip-SLS » tessellated, posted by SLS on January 5, 2007, at 6:30:59
scott,
re: my paranoi/mania, i believe was from parnate withdrawl/insomnia/and a very brutal heartbreak. i decided it would qualify as a "brief psychosis" according to dsm. i don't agree that when AD's trigger mania in folks they should be labled bipolar. it's obviously a grey scale, and never in my life until parnate had i experienced a manic break.i tried the benzo/parnate option, but never felt the full cognitive effect of parnate until after 14-20hs of dosing. i always was wide awake in the middle of the night and really didn't wanna pull an elvis, so i just didn't sleep for 36, then slept soundly from sheer exhaustion.
perhaps its a little too potent for me. much like a more healthy amphetamine at 100mg/and higher. the creative drive is ever so tempting. the rush of purpose, drive, etc. but the affect on (i think) the dopaminergic system, is what brought on the paranoia, etc over a prolonged period. i probably could have just cut back dosage. dunno, it just sort of runs away with me. frustrating...
yeah, check out milnacipran's structure on biopsychiatry vs. parnate.
http://biopsychiatry.com/milnacipran/index.html
http://biopsychiatry.com/tranylcypromine/index.htmlfast acting. seems like i can feel that NE blocking in about an hour.
nardil, i've been told is the "shot-gun" MAOI. since you've got some supposed reuptake inhibition going on w/GABA and 5HT plus nortriptyline's boosted NE/5HT, and then abilify's curious agonist/antagonist mix, i don't think there's anyway to figure out what the heck it's gonna do. not to mention the tendency of the other meds to simply slow (moderate?) neural excitation. dunno, i've wondered about a valproate/parnate combination...
sound's like shooting pinballs around a rubber room and trying to ascertain their end position.
the issue i'm realizing about myself, and one that i think is hard to factor in is how our neurons adapt over extended periods after exposure to drugs, neural plasticity, receptor sensitivity, etc. where is baseline?
i've seen myself run into polypharmacy problems by moving too fast from one med or SE to another, swinging around like a monkey on the merry-go-round.
not that i'm turning herbalist/homeopathic, but i do feel that some of my worst/darkest/scariest states were in themselves unintentionally medically produced.
the endogenous/exogenous delineation is a problematic reductivist polemic.
i started on meds due to a exaggerated reaction to: death, trauma, and loss. the meds did allow a certain remarkable semi-sustainable functionality, but as well caused some form of neurological dependancy/personality shift which then fogged my sense of self, as a bio-chemoelectrically conscious being.
ultimately this is a chicken in the egg contemplation and i'm picken the chicken.
a minimalist "less is more" approach.p.s: serotonin syndrome is a tricky diagnosis. particularly with the ion pump and gaba activity. i got cold and rigid. the anticonvulsants might decrease that affect to good or bad effect; i.e. mask the symptoms. dunno?
strange note: the MAOI's greatest fear is the hypertensive crisis, i only experienced the hypotensive state. i never understood that.
cheers,
l8
>
> nortriptyline 100mg
> Nardil 60mg
> Lamictal 150mg
> Topamax 100mg
> Abilify 10mg
>
>
> I restarted Nardil. I'm hoping that I'm not developing a mild serotonin syndrome when combined with nortriptyline.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by platinumbride on January 6, 2007, at 19:21:08
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip » djmmm, posted by NYCguy on January 2, 2007, at 11:05:24
Happy New Year Everyone....
Any tips on what times of day to take 60 mgs of nardil to lessen the (for me) afternoon fatigue?
I use a sleep aid for the sleep trouble it provokes.
I am about to begin grad school, with 2 late afternoon classes and a long commute in a few weeks. Th fatigue gets very bad around three pmm...right around the time I need to leave the house.
I was hoping to "force" it to come at noon. Any suggestions?
Diane
Posted by corafree on January 12, 2007, at 13:21:20
In reply to Re: General Maoi Tip, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 10:13:32
>
> That said,the only things i remeber being added to nardil to enhance it were Provigil,and with caution ,i repeat caution,WELLBUTRIN & various amphetmines,i.e ritalin,dexadrine etc.
>
>Hey Willyee, this was about 5down, just googled Nardil Provigil.
Comments anyone? Doc appt in 45min.
>
> i POSTED this site a few times,its 100 percent about nardil,
>
> http://www.anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html
>
>I'm checkin' above right now.
>The old/new aside,there are many general maoi tips mentioned here.
>
> Also i would imagine ACE would know a great deal on working with nardil as hes been on it as u know a long time.
>I don't 'know' Nardil or Parnate, or what class they are in.
tks, cf
ps: I got 'a bit of a lecture' from my P re: my input about what meds I should be taking.
This is the end of the thread.
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