Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 261110

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Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines

Posted by Chawner on September 17, 2003, at 17:43:14

I see that this thread is quite old but I stumbled across it so other people might be reading it also so I thought I'd reply despite its age.

I'm coming at this from a somewhat different angle. I'm severely bipolar and have anxiety issues and a few years ago I became unemployed and lost my insurance so I turned to street drugs to self medicate (bad idea...just FYI).

I used xanax and meth together pretty much every day for months. I have to say, they were EXTREMELY effective together. The xanax took away many of the unpleasant side effects of the crystal and the combination was, without a doubt, the best mood stabilizer I've ever taken (and I've taken many of them). In fact, they worked far, far too well...my mood was so stable I didn't care that I was unemployed, that I was quickly developing an addiction that I could never afford to maintain...not to mention the fact that meth features drain cleaner as a primary ingredient. My father died and I was fine...no depression, no mania...nothing. I felt fine all the time. It was really wonderful. I had never felt that OK before. I wasn't cracked out, I wasn't depressed...it was really perfect. So I kept at it...feeling perfect...while every aspect of my life fell down around me. Anyway...just wanted to add that warning before I went any further.

Many of my friends were taking amphetamines at the same time I was. Sleeping pills were common, for all the reasons already mentioned here. From what I saw/experienced Ambien or Sonata in combination with at least methamphetamines are EXTREMELY dangerous. Those who took ambien to come down from Tina (Meth) suffered inevitable blackouts during which they'd be awake and walking around but otherwise totally out of it. You could talk to them but they didn't make any sense at all. They'd wake up having broken all their CDs into little pieces, or having thrown a pie into the toilet or something equally nonsensical. It's a miracle none of them got into their cars and drove into the side of a building.

Sonota was usually fine, but when it did react with the Meth it was HORRIBLE. If you've taken serzone or buspar or weaned off effexor (or any other such drug) you're familiar with the "brain sputtering" feeling that occurs when you either a) take it or b) don't (depending on the drug). Meth and Sonata together would occasionally cause this feeling times 10,000. This happened to me once and it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life. I woke up in the middle of the night and all I was aware of was PAIN. It was so all-consuming I couldn't remember who I was or what reality was...it was just painpainpainpain. I remember trying to understand what was happening. For about an hour I couldn't remember if life was just like this or if there was something wrong with me. I ran around my apartment in circles moaning and crying, holding my head, trying to break out of this god-awful, myopic, pain-induced state that had completely stripped me of my memory and my sense of self. If there had been a gun in the house, I would have picked it up and shot myself in the head without a second's hesitation. The only reason I didn't find a way to kill myself is that I couldn't understand the concepts of "door" "drawer" "knife" "pills." I was that far-gone. I don't know if there's a word to describe what I was going through, but "psychotic" is a good guess. It was truly a glimpse of Hell.

I swear I'm not being overly dramatic. If anything, I failed to capture just how awful it really was.

So...take that for what it's worth. Street drugs have all sorts of ingredients you'd never find in the prescription varieties, and any one of them could have caused this reaction. It wasn't really an issue of amounts (I was pretty careful with my meth dosage...I took about the same amount as you'd get from a p-doc and I k ept it consistent and I ate regularly and slept every night). But this was bad enough and happened frequently enough (until word got out and everyone threw out the Sonota) that I wouldn't risk a similar combination at all...EVER.

If you want a drug to sleep and you're taking Rit., Add., etc. try talking to your doctor about remeron. That worked wonderfully for almost everyone I know who took it. It will knock you out at first but when that levels off it's a fantastic med.

Again...street drugs are a whole different animal (with much sharper teeth)...but I felt if there was any chance this combination could produce the same effects with pharm. amphetamines I needed to give everyone a heads up.

Hope it's helpful to someone.

Tim

 

Re: Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines » Chawner

Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 17, 2003, at 19:02:26

In reply to Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines, posted by Chawner on September 17, 2003, at 17:43:14

The warning's certainly appreciated, though the greater portion of those who combine Ambien/Sonata/Imovane with Desoxyn/Adderall/Dexedrine/Ritalin experience no ill effect. As you hypothesized, the street meth was most likely a "bathtub-synthesis" product and contained contaminants. Not to mention that it may have been cut with something that was causing these reactions.

Remeron's really a pretty rotten drug in general. It's sleep-inducing qualities tend to disappear after one or two weeks, and long-term use often causes horrible irritability/hostility. As an antidepressant/antianxiety agent, it's absolutely worthless for most people. Trazodone, doxepin, Elavil, diphenhydramine, promethazine, Seconal, Amytal, Tuinal, Nembutal, phenobarbital, Restoril, Halcion, ProSom, Doral, and Dalmane also rapidly lose their effectiveness. Also, Remeron and Elavil especially can be psychotomimetic, which is definitely not a good mix with amphetamines, which can also be psychotomimetic. Ambien, on the other hand, often does not cause tolerance and is definitely the hypnotic of choice in most cases... though Xyrem (pharmaceutical GHB) sounds like a very attractive option as a hypnotic for those who must take amphetamines as tolerance doesn't develop when taken as prescribed and the dopamine boost during the day could allow you to reduce or even eliminate the amphetamine from your med regimen. Just ask utopizen.

 

Re: Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines

Posted by utopizen on September 17, 2003, at 20:30:32

In reply to Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines, posted by Chawner on September 17, 2003, at 17:43:14

Okay, it is a misnomer to suggest that meth on the street is even meth to begin with. If you're lucky, it's 10% meth. If you paid lots of it, trust/know the dealer, and it's an unusual case, it might be as high as 30% meth. The rest are adulterants, which are likely responsible for much of the side effects. Many of the side effects may also be attributable to the lack of sleep many users experience, poor nutrition as a result of appetite supression, etc.

Insomnia+no food alone will kill you very quickly, but before that will give you terrible effects. So I would be cautious to blame meth so much. Heck, even during withdrawl, you have no idea what you're mostly withdrawing from-- likely amphetamine, not methamphetamine, that comprises most of the product sold. And other things. It's cheaper, and you'll never know, that's why.

I use Desoxyn, which is methamphetamine HCL. I don't abuse it, do not have any side effects whatsoever, absolutely none.

I've been able to skip entire days though, in fact I haven't used mine for several days, because of my use of Xyrem. This may relate more to my underlying sleep disorder and its effects on my ADD symptoms.

I have a slightly problem a few days ago, my doc hadn't given me my refill for it, and Xyrem was helpful for my sleep, but I had to read a particularly hard book that gave me trouble concentration wise... and it also made my sleepiness a bit more noticable. I've since then gotten my refill, though.

And Xyrem, it's interesting. But the real effects on reducing daytime sleepiness occur after 6-8 weeks of regular nightly use (2 doses/night totalling 4.5mg-9mg). It should not be used during the day, and should not be used without a doctor's prescription and supervision.

I've gone the entire day today without Desoxyn because of Xyrem, and have had my concentration increase and my sleepiness dramatically decrease.

As for Ambien, other hypnotics-- I have had to use them, for reasons unrelated to Desoxyn use, when I had transient insomnia over the summer. I haven't had insomnia since, so haven't used it. But it has absolutely no interaction. Street meth, it probably would, because again, it's high doses of meth, high doses of pathetic adulterants, you're not eating properly, you're not sleeping at a set pattern and at a 9-10 hour duration each night, your nutrition is likely inadequate, etc.

Has nothing to do with Ambien, Ambien will just be poorly tolerated to things your doing to your body that you shouldn't be tolerating yourself in the first place. When a sleeping pill has higher standards for how your body's condition is than you do, you need to think about that, not blame Ambien.

 

Re: Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines

Posted by stjames on September 19, 2003, at 17:25:52

In reply to Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines, posted by Chawner on September 17, 2003, at 17:43:14

I can't believe you are advocating street meth
as a treatment. You are giving quite wreckless
advice here.

 

You're taking way more than you think » Chawner

Posted by utopizen on September 20, 2003, at 1:25:57

In reply to Ambien/Sonata with Methamphetamines, posted by Chawner on September 17, 2003, at 17:43:14

You cannot begin to compare the dosage of street meth as "the same as one gets from a p-doc." Why is this board filled with such posts, which continiously claim a street drug's safety by the mere existence of a pharmaceutical medicine?

For one thing, I can guarantee you, you have absolutely no way, whatsoever, even if you're utilizing a college chem lab's equipment, to routinely measure how much meth you're actually taking.

Second, why are you doing this to begin with? You will never get euphoric without taking doses far higher than what a doctor prescribes, so if you ever get euphoric on it, you're completely off.

10% is the average percentage of meth that is contained in what you are ASSUMING is 100% meth because it's called "meth." If you are in a rare case, it might be 30%.

The rest can be poisions, and often are. Whatever filler makes you think you're dosing it so meticuliously while the dealer maintains his profit margin works for him.

So I don't care if you're measuring this thing with an electronic postal weight machine, I can guarantee you that you are not taking 20-25mg/day of actual meth. And with street meth, it's not uncommon to even get 0% meth.

If you ever had any idea what dealers use for fillers that end up convincing you into thinking you have pure meth, you would never do this again.

Also, you wouldn't need any "downers", not even Ambien, to go to sleep on meth, if you are taking it at a regular dose. Sorry, that's like the 80th reason I know for sure you are taking way more a day than anything a doctor would prescribe you in a month if you actually had a need for it.

Which brings me to the obvious, why on earth do you need to use an illicit substance that is guaranteed to be adulterated? Do you have ADD? If you did, why don't you just see a doctor? If you don't, why on earth would you be using this? I have Desoxyn, if there's no work I need done for classes, you'd have to pay me to take my prescribed dose.

I take Desoxyn at the prescribed dose.

There's no euphoria, there's no insomnia-- YOU ARE TAKING MORE THAN YOU THINK YOU ARE.

 

Re: You're taking way more than you think » utopizen

Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 21, 2003, at 2:20:45

In reply to You're taking way more than you think » Chawner, posted by utopizen on September 20, 2003, at 1:25:57

Chawner did say it was *crystal* meth he was using. Crystal meth from the streets has continuously been analyzed and found to contain between 97-99% methamphetamine HCl. Less than that and the meth wouldn't crystallize -- that's why crystal (or "ice", "glass", "crank", whatever you want to call it) is so much more expensive than powdered meth HCl. One hit off a pipe delivers a fairly large amount of pure drug to your brain all at once, and due to methamphetamine's finite rate of excretion, the effects of crystal meth can last (by some accounts) 24+ hours, though 8-16 hours seems more common. With crystal meth, provided that you *do* have an accurate scale, you *can* gauge the amount of drug you're taking in pretty accurately. And, if you'll reread his post, Chawner never did use the word 'euphoria', nor did he describe the effects as anything that I would personally equate with a full-on meth euphoria.

All of this taken into consideration, I think he knows what he's doing and I have no reason to believe, from that post, that he's using anything above the therapeutic dose (which you have to remember is approximately twice as high for racemic methamphetamine as it is for Desoxyn, since the levo isomer is, for all intents and purposes, psychologically inactive).

Be it clear, though, that I'm certainly not advocating the use of street drugs, especially not smoking meth. It's just that as a former polysubstance addict who knows many current and former junkies, crackheads, alcoholics etc etc, I really feel that feeding the anti-hard drug rhetoric to a speed freak is essentially preaching to the converted. Most of them aren't stupid, and many are actually quite well-versed in all aspects regarding their drug of choice. If that drug is cocaine, powder meth, ecstasy, heroin, PCP, ketamine, etc, they're normally quite aware that the product they're purchasing is probably cut at least 50%, or often 100%. A good number of them could probably even give you a good approximation of the drug:adulterant ratio in the material just by sampling it once. And true meth addicts can certainly tell if their junk contains anything other than meth, even if meth is present as well. It's like wine-tasting in a way, as utterly ridiculous as that sounds, lol... most of them could easily tell you if the product they have contains 4-methyl-aminorex, d-meth, l-meth, dl-meth, d-amp, l-amp, dl-amp, methylphenidate, dexmethylphenidate, ephedrine, caffeine, phenylephrine, or pseudoephedrine and even estimate the relative amounts of each. Most of us would have incredible difficulty discerning between phenylephrine and l-amp after just a single dose, lol.

If anything, I have to commend the guy for passing over the cheaper, more adulterated, more dangerous forms of meth available and sticking to the relatively pure stuff, lol.

 

Re: You're taking way more than you think

Posted by utopizen on September 21, 2003, at 15:26:08

In reply to Re: You're taking way more than you think » utopizen, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 21, 2003, at 2:20:45

I know he didn't cite euphoria, but I'm perplexed as to why anyone would go to the lengths of using the most criminalized drug in the country (since the amphetamine act of 2000) if they were truly using it for "therapeutic" purposes. As if it's not available from a doctor, this isn't pot we're talking about.

If he isn't using it for euphoria, what then? That's very suspicious-- why would someone do such a thing, not tell a doctor, have a prescription? I find it either hard to believe or a poor idea, either way, it's not something to condone.

Even if his health isn't at risk, that ignores the fact that a very small amount equals a minimum jail sentence of many years. And he may know the purity, etc., but no one ever knows if someone is looking to get off on a drug charge by informing the cops of a drug buyer.

How many feel confident over their "drug of choice" because of its purity when they see flashing blue lights in front of them as they hold a brown lunch bag containing just enough meth to put off their plans for the next 5 years?

Great, then we get to talk about what drug's the most effective for PTSD 5 years for him from now.

Nevertheless, let's not forget insomnia is not typical in Desoxyn users, so let's not be so certain here. It's generally time-related, like taking it before 6, you won't have an issue. And let's ignore the idea that taking it orally in pill form and taking it orally in powder form wouldn't change the pharmakinetics. Geez, of course it would! And let's not even act like he's taking it any other way.

And by the way, l-methamphetamine does induce insomnia, for the love of psychohpharmacology! It just has more side-effects, less therapeutic benefits. Emphasis on MORE SIDE-EFFECTS. Isolating the d-isomer is very complicated, it's not as simple as pretending the l-isomer didn't do anything, it did do something, but mostly induce side effects more than treat the problem it was given for. *That's* why it often means you can halve the dose when you have a d-isomer drug, but that isn't relevant to this case, because in this case we're exclusively concerned about SIDE-EFFECTS, not therapeutic benefits, and these are MOSTLY RESPONSIBLE from the l-isomer, hence why Desoxyn (d-isomer) is signifigantly less likely to induce side effects. Same thing with Adderall vs. Dexedrine, Dex is less likely to induce side effects, insomnia, than Adderall, at equivalent doses. Adderall's 75% l isomers.

We're on a board that continiously questions generic vs. brand name drugs, and you're suggesting d, l methamphetamine HCL and d-methamphetamine HCL are equivocal? There's about a hundred different ways to make it, and even the head chemist at Abbott that perfected its procurement advanced its state after it was on the market for two decades.

Purity, insomnia, these are the least of one's worries. These are the worries of good luck, these are worries that you wish you might have the moment you are arrested for possession.

And okay, so you didn't think of all the things I though of, that's okay, but that's also why we are cautious about our own thinking, that's why we see doctors, not drug dealers...

 

Re: You're taking way more than you think » utopizen

Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 21, 2003, at 18:54:11

In reply to Re: You're taking way more than you think, posted by utopizen on September 21, 2003, at 15:26:08

> I know he didn't cite euphoria, but I'm perplexed as to why anyone would go to the lengths of using the most criminalized drug in the country (since the amphetamine act of 2000) if they were truly using it for "therapeutic" purposes. As if it's not available from a doctor, this isn't pot we're talking about.
>
> If he isn't using it for euphoria, what then? That's very suspicious-- why would someone do such a thing, not tell a doctor, have a prescription? I find it either hard to believe or a poor idea, either way, it's not something to condone.

This person quite obviously doesn't want to get a legitimate prescription for the same reason a junkie would rather take heroin than methadone -- the prescription drugs don't provide the rush. Anyone who's enjoyed street drugs before can relate with that.

> Even if his health isn't at risk, that ignores the fact that a very small amount equals a minimum jail sentence of many years. And he may know the purity, etc., but no one ever knows if someone is looking to get off on a drug charge by informing the cops of a drug buyer.
>
> How many feel confident over their "drug of choice" because of its purity when they see flashing blue lights in front of them as they hold a brown lunch bag containing just enough meth to put off their plans for the next 5 years?
>
> Great, then we get to talk about what drug's the most effective for PTSD 5 years for him from now.

I'm fairly sure Chawner is aware of the legal risks of crystal meth addiction, which is why I didn't feel it necessary to bring this up.

> Nevertheless, let's not forget insomnia is not typical in Desoxyn users, so let's not be so certain here. It's generally time-related, like taking it before 6, you won't have an issue.

Insomnia is an extremely common side effect of Desoxyn use -- I mean come on now, it's methamphetamine. True, it's less common the earlier in the day your last dose is, but many can't take a single dose at 8AM without looking forward to a sleepless night.

> And let's ignore the idea that taking it orally in pill form and taking it orally in powder form wouldn't change the pharmakinetics. Geez, of course it would! And let's not even act like he's taking it any other way.

Crystal methamphetamine is smoked, not taken orally, and it's not a powder form of the drug.

> And by the way, l-methamphetamine does induce insomnia, for the love of psychohpharmacology! It just has more side-effects, less therapeutic benefits. Emphasis on MORE SIDE-EFFECTS. Isolating the d-isomer is very complicated, it's not as simple as pretending the l-isomer didn't do anything, it did do something, but mostly induce side effects more than treat the problem it was given for. *That's* why it often means you can halve the dose when you have a d-isomer drug, but that isn't relevant to this case, because in this case we're exclusively concerned about SIDE-EFFECTS, not therapeutic benefits, and these are MOSTLY RESPONSIBLE from the l-isomer, hence why Desoxyn (d-isomer) is signifigantly less likely to induce side effects. Same thing with Adderall vs. Dexedrine, Dex is less likely to induce side effects, insomnia, than Adderall, at equivalent doses. Adderall's 75% l isomers.

Exactly. The l-isomer is not therapeutically beneficial. Thus, its only importance when figuring therapeutic dose of racemic methamphetamine is in predicting a wider range of side effects. Those who smoke crystal meth generally aren't concerned about side effects.

> We're on a board that continiously questions generic vs. brand name drugs, and you're suggesting d, l methamphetamine HCL and d-methamphetamine HCL are equivocal?

That's not at all what I'm saying. See above.

> There's about a hundred different ways to make it, and even the head chemist at Abbott that perfected its procurement advanced its state after it was on the market for two decades.

As I said, methamphetamine does not form crystals unless it is near 100% purity, so one can be relatively sure of the amount of drug their taking it with crystal meth. There isn't another street drug out there that I can say the same thing about. Hell, I can't even say the same thing about FDA-approved generic drugs.

> Purity, insomnia, these are the least of one's worries. These are the worries of good luck, these are worries that you wish you might have the moment you are arrested for possession.

But again, on a forum such as this, it's hardly appropriate to resort to scare tactics regarding legality. It was the pharmacological impact of zolpidem and zaleplon taken with crystal methamphetamine which was on trial here originally, and drug users/abusers will continue to use regardless of any ridiculous legal sanctions that might be imposed upon us. One day it'll all be legal anyway, once people open up their eyes and see that the criminal underground spawned by this laughable "war on drugs", and the deaths caused by ingestion of adulterated drugs, could all be pretty much wiped out if one could just walk into the liquor store and buy an FDA-approved wrap of speed. Didn't prohibition teach us a thing?

> And okay, so you didn't think of all the things I though of, that's okay, but that's also why we are cautious about our own thinking, that's why we see doctors, not drug dealers...

First of all, I find it quite patronizing and a bit rude that you would assume I haven't "thought of all the things you thought of," especially when it's quite obvious that I've not only thought this thing through quite well, but I've lived it myself.

Secondly, what to do about those who can't afford to see a doctor? Who don't even know that treatments exist for the disorder they have? Or perhaps they *do* have access to medical care, but have found themselves treatment-resistant to everything the doctor throws at them. Sound familiar?

Illegal drug addicts will always be around, until we smart up and legalize it all.


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