![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Simcha on June 20, 2003, at 12:07:43
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De, posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 9:34:46
>
> > The fact is that it IS healthier to be a vegetarian who eats a balanced diet than to be one of the many omnivores who does not have a balanced diet.
>
>
> This goes without saying !
>
> I also notice a lot of anger in the vegan's I know who are mal-nurishedAnd I've been angry most of my life and I was raised in the Midwest on huge portions of all kinds of meat. I was angry then and I get angry now when appropriate. The medication has helped a lot with managing my anger and bringing it to appropriate level.
Posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 13:09:36
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De » stjames, posted by Simcha on June 20, 2003, at 12:07:43
I was vegan for a while, but ate eggs and cheese.
It does consern me that people say "as long as I eat a varied veggie diet I am OK." My understanding is that one will not get specific
aminos if on does not consume specific beans.
I find far too many just start eating veggies and leave it there, and get malnurished. The dark circles, yellow cast to the skin, and anger follow.I used to drive a friend with brain cancer (GBM) to the whole foods store as she went macro-biotic. I noticed lots of sickly people shopping there and at first thought they too had cronic or terminal illnesses and were trying to eat healthy.
Nope, there were just trendy, stupid people who went vegan and had no clue as to nutrition.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 13:27:39
In reply to VegetarianDiets--B12 Healty Vegetarian Eating..., posted by Simcha on June 20, 2003, at 12:01:54
> Anyway, thanks for the advice, Larry Hoover. Actually Selenium comes from the soil where our veggies are grown. It does not come from meat. My supplement gives me an extra 100mcg of Selenium per day. Also, the soil in America is not Selenium deficient, according to Quackwatch anyway.It is true that the soil is the ultimate source of the selenium in our diets, but the same is true of our meat-providing animals. Meat is indeed an excellent source of selenium, particularly the liver. Whole grain is a good source of selenium, and meat animals are grain-fed.
Given that I could not know that you are American, and the worldwide scope of membership in this discussion group, I did not see any reason to restrict my recommendation by geographical parameters. If, by chance, you were a resident of certain Scandinavian countries, Great Britain, or New Zealand, it would be virtually a foregone conclusion that you were selenium deficient.
Even the highly conservative American medical community has no objections to supplemental selenium at 200 mcg/day.
Lar
Posted by Emme on June 20, 2003, at 17:51:19
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De, posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 13:09:36
> I was vegan for a while, but ate eggs and cheese.
Then you weren't a vegan. Vegans do not eat dairy products.
> It does consern me that people say "as long as I eat a varied veggie diet I am OK." My understanding is that one will not get specific
> aminos if on does not consume specific beans.Rice or wheat or cornmeal + legume = complete protein. It doesn't have to be a specific bean.
Rice or wheat + sesame = complete protein.
Rice or wheat + milk = complete protein.
Beans or peanuts (both legumes) + milk = complete protein.
Those are just a few examples of complementarity. And I neglected to include nuts.
It's really not that hard, even if you skip the dairy.
You don't even have to be compulsive about ratios.
Protein is protein and amino acids are amino acids whether they occur in meat or beans.
Heck, a good old glass of milk and a PB&J sandwich on a good whole wheat bread gets you pretty far along in your daily protein.
> I find far too many just start eating veggies and leave it there, and get malnurished.I haven't seen any polls, but I suspect that those are in the minority. Among my acquaintances, I've personally found that the vegetarians eat balanced, reasonable diets. Any B-12 and iron concerns can be dealt with through vitamins and fortified foods (soy milk for example). That's not to say that some vegetarian wannabes out there don't eat well. But then I'm sure there are lots of non-vegetarians who eat poorly too.
Emme
Posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 19:34:05
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De » stjames, posted by Emme on June 20, 2003, at 17:51:19
It is too bad we have to kill life to eat, be it animal or plant.
Posted by noa on June 20, 2003, at 19:41:26
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De, posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 13:09:36
I have a relative who is a cancer survivor and has been on a strict macrobiotic diet for about 15 years and has remained cancer-free. Who knows if the macrobiotic diet has any thing to do with it, but I'm sure he isn't about to make any changes given that things have gone so well for so long.
I have another relative who is a long time vegetarian and then became a vegan a few years ago and forgot about the need to add B12 via supplements and became deficient in B12, her primary symptom being severe chronic fatigue. After B12 treatment (series of injections, etc.), she got better, and now uses a B12 supplement every day.
As for the variety thing--I think variety is a good principle but also some deliberate attention to amino acids, such as through combos of beans, grains, etc. (a la "Diet for a Small Planet") is important. I think that lacto-ovo-vegies have less to worry about in terms of the amino-acid intake than vegans. It certainly can be done and done healthfully, but some deliberate attention to certain nutrients is called for.
As for me, I became a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) way back in my early teens. In my late twenties, I started having yearly episodes of strong fish cravings. I would indulge these and then the cravings would go away. But the craving would return eventually and soon I discovered I seemed to really 'need' fish, or at least it felt like my body was saying I needed fish. So, in my early thirties, I just decided to become a fish eater. In light of how well I've responded to the fish oil in the past 6 months, I am convinced I read my cravings correctly.
Posted by Simcha on June 21, 2003, at 1:18:09
In reply to Re: On the other hand.., posted by noa on June 20, 2003, at 19:41:26
Noa,
> As for me, I became a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) way back in my early teens. In my late twenties, I started having yearly episodes of strong fish cravings. I would indulge these and then the cravings would go away. But the craving would return eventually and soon I discovered I seemed to really 'need' fish, or at least it felt like my body was saying I needed fish. So, in my early thirties, I just decided to become a fish eater. In light of how well I've responded to the fish oil in the past 6 months, I am convinced I read my cravings correctly.
I find this very interesting. I believe that my body craves the things it needs too. If you feel you need fish, then eat fish. I have cravings for nuts and grains. I eat nuts and grains.
Since I am currently a vegan I use supplements to round out my diet so that I'm sure that I take care of any deficiency my already careful diet might give me.
Everyone, Healthy eating!
Posted by Simcha on June 21, 2003, at 1:20:16
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De, posted by stjames on June 20, 2003, at 19:34:05
> It is too bad we have to kill life to eat, be it animal or plant.
St. James,
Well, all animals must kill to eat. We are also animals. We must kill to eat. I just try to remember where my food comes from when I eat it. I try to make good choices for my health and the health of the planet. It's a balance, and yes, sometimes I make not so good choices.
Healthy Eating!
Posted by McPac on June 21, 2003, at 23:50:21
In reply to Re: nutrients and asthma » Simcha, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 9:03:09
Also, niacinamide may have good effect, as it reduces histamine release from mast cells. 500 mg, as needed.
>>>>>>Lar, doesn't niacin help BUILD histamine?
This year is different from my last thirty years.>>>>>>>>> What supplements seem to be helping so much (niacin? selenium? any others?) I ask because my brother has asthma. Thanks!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 7:59:19
In reply to Lar, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 21, 2003, at 23:50:21
> Also, niacinamide may have good effect, as it reduces histamine release from mast cells. 500 mg, as needed.
>
> >>>>>>Lar, doesn't niacin help BUILD histamine?The niacin flush reaction is release of histamine. Niacinamide blocks release of histamine. I don't have references at my fingertips, this second (that's where my first coffee awaits me), but I'll post some later, if you want.
> This year is different from my last thirty years.
>
> >>>>>>>>> What supplements seem to be helping so much (niacin? selenium? any others?) I ask because my brother has asthma. Thanks!It's got to be the vitamin B-3 and derivatives, with a possible interaction with selenium (that's stretching). I've been using NADH and niacinamide regularly this spring and early summer (novel supplementation), and my asthma and allergies are a tiny fraction of what I experienced every year for the last thirty or more.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 8:35:54
In reply to Lar, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 21, 2003, at 23:50:21
> Also, niacinamide may have good effect, as it reduces histamine release from mast cells. 500 mg, as needed.
>
> >>>>>>Lar, doesn't niacin help BUILD histamine?Most of the relevant research was done thirty years ago, and on other continents. I was able to track down some literal quotes from certain articles (a few weeks ago, not reproduced here), but most articles do not have abstracts available for perusal. I've pasted a few references in, because even the titles are pretty clear.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1976;50(6):729-36.
Inhibition by nicotinamide of antigen-induced histamine release from mouse peritoneal mast cells.
Wyczolkowska J, Maslinski C.
The in vitro antigen-induced histamine release from mouse peritoneal mast cells actively sensitized with IgE antibodies was inhibited by nicotinamide. The drug was either given in vivo to the sensitized mice (once daily 100 mg/kg) for 7 days before an in vitro experiment or incubated in vitro (in concentrations 1-40 mM) with sensitized mast cells before an antigen challenge. The possible action of nicotinamide on the mechanisms involved in the regulation of antigen-induced histamine release from mast cells is discussed.
Bekier E, Czerwinska U.
The effect of nicotinamide on the experimental asthma in guinea pigs.
Acta Physiol Pol. 1973 Nov-Dec;24(6):887-9. No abstract available.
Bekier E, Wyczolkowska J, Szyc H, Maslinski C.
The inhibitory effect of nicotinamide on asthma-like symptoms and eosinophilia in guinea pigs, anaphylactic mast cell degranulation in mice, and histamine release from rat isolated peritoneal mast cells by compound 48-80.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1974;47(5):737-48.
Bekier E, Szyc H, Czerwinska U, Maslinski C.
The influence of nicotinamide on the course of experimental bronchial asthma in guinea pig.
Agents Actions. 1973 Oct;3(3):176. No abstract available.Bekier E, Maslinski C.
Antihistaminic action of nicotinamide.
Agents Actions. 1974 Aug;4(3):196. No abstract available.Wyczolkowska J, Maslinski C.
Inhibition by nicotinamide of a homologous PCA reaction and antigen-induced histamine release from isolated rat peritoneal mast cells.
Agents Actions. 1974 Aug;4(3):202-3.
> This year is different from my last thirty years.
>
> >>>>>>>>> What supplements seem to be helping so much (niacin? selenium? any others?) I ask because my brother has asthma. Thanks!I mentioned B-3 derivatives and selenium, but I should also have made note of vitamin C and magnesium. I'm a tad more focussed on the water-solubles this year. B-12 is in better supply this year, too.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 22, 2003, at 14:25:16
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 Defic , posted by janejj on June 19, 2003, at 17:28:36
> I am a vegetarian maybw that is why i am so f*cked up !?
I'm sorry if you're not doing well, but please don't use language that could offend others, thanks.
Bob
Posted by stjames on June 22, 2003, at 16:27:44
In reply to Re: On the other hand.., posted by noa on June 20, 2003, at 19:41:26
> As for the variety thing--I think variety is a good principle but also some deliberate attention to amino acids, such as through combos of beans, grains, etc. (a la "Diet for a Small Planet") is important. I think that lacto-ovo-vegies have less to worry about in terms of the amino-acid intake than vegans. It certainly can be done and done healthfully, but some deliberate attention to certain nutrients is called for.
>
> As for me, I became a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) way back in my early teens.I was lacto-ovo for that very reason (the aminos and other nutrients were abundant there & I am not a big bean and grain person) but despite my best efforts I was always anemic while a vegetarian.
I tried lots of things but finally had no choice but to restart meat & my iron stores and levels quickly returned to normal. I was always tired as a vegetarian. Everyone is different and some diets will not work for everybody.
Posted by stjames on June 22, 2003, at 16:32:08
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 Defic , posted by janejj on June 19, 2003, at 17:28:36
> I am a vegetarian maybw that is why i am so xxx up !? I hate meat, it makes me feel sick for some reason.
>
> JanejjI know for myself the vegie diet caused more problems, specifacally not enough iron, bespite supplements. I did a bunch of tests to indicate if
I was nutritionally deficient, perhaps the same could answer your question.
Posted by noa on June 22, 2003, at 21:08:51
In reply to Re: Lenient VegetarianDiets can still cause B12 De, posted by stjames on June 22, 2003, at 16:32:08
Yes, everyone is different. My iron has always been fine. I have rarely had anemia. And the few times I did, it was very mild, and around my period. And supplements solved that.
My sister, who has also been a vegetarian since adolescence, had severe anemia with her pregnancies and had to eat liver every day for a period of time each time it happened. Since I've never been pregnant, I don't know if I would have this problem, too.
Posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 23:14:35
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: nutrients and asthma » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 7:59:19
I'm confused as to why Pfeiffer told me to avoid niacin (and I think niacinamide too)? The niacin I CAN understand but why the niacinamide? Maybe since the goal is to lower my histamine levels, they didn't want niacinamide used because they WANTED it to be released from my mast cells and THEN REMOVED from my body(by other supps?????)
Posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 23:48:45
In reply to Lar, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 21, 2003, at 23:50:21
Lar, you're always helping everybody else out here....I happened to have this info so, just in case you (or others) may find it useful, here goes:
Asthma:
Taken from the Wellness Manual
Chapter 1 - Allergic Disorders, Pages 3 and 4
By Dr. Eric BravermanThere are increasing numbers of asthma cases documented in the United States because of indoor and environmental pollution, outdoor pollution, molds, cat danders, house dust, mites, and multiple other factors. If it can make you allergic, you can get asthma from it.
Asthma is associated with sinusitis, hypertension, emphysema, heart failure, eczema, and respiratory failure. Asthma can occur in patients with pneumonia, fractured ribs, tuberculosis, and arthritis. All these conditions can interplay with asthma.
Asthmatic patients are frequently allergic to cockroaches, house dust, ragweed, rats, mice, etc.
Asthma is well known to be a brain disorder. If you deplete certain neurotransmitters in the brain, tyrosine, phenylalanine, dopamine, and noracymethadol, you can have a dramatic increase in asthma.
Asthma occurs during periods of stress and can be successfully treated by antidepressants. Medications like Dilantin and anticonvulsants can be dramatically helpful.
Yogurt has been shown to be helpful for bronchial asthma, as well as any relaxation technique, biofeedback, CES, prayer, etc.
Brain norepinephrine has been shown to be depleted in asthmatics, again pointing out the benefits of various asthmatic treatments. Antiasthmatic effects have been shown with onion extracts, as well as mustard oils. Acupuncture has been recommended for asthma. Vitamin C has been shown to reduce some of the lung hyper-responsiveness of asthmatics. Intravenous magnesium has been shown to be useful in asthmatics. Diets high in
sodium are dangerous for asthmatics. Inhalants are used by doctors, but certain inhalants will actually result in rebound wheezing, palpitations, and serious side effects due to the drugs.Avoidance of allergic foods can dramatically help asthmatics. As many as 93 percent are dramatically helped who have bronchial asthma. This can be tested through IGG testing.
Snow crab processing workers have a high rate of asthma. We recommend shell fishing be avoided by asthmatics. (Shell fish are essentially rodents.) Occupational hazard asthma occurs with exposure to nickel and other irritants.
White wine can sometimes help asthmatics and sometimes may harm asthmatics. Sulfites have been linked to worsening asthma. Sulfites are found in fruit juices, soft drinks, wines, beers, cider vinegar, potato chips, dried fruits, and various vegetables. There is no doubt that one of the few benefits of coffee is that it can help asthma.
Vitamin B-6 has been thought to be helpful for asthma. Low selenium levels have been linked to asthma. Bronchitis has been a cause of asthma and has been treated with N-acetylcystine. Asthma frequently goes undiagnosed and has been associated with depression. It is sometimes related to sleep disorder.
Allergic rhinitis can be relieved by aspirin and Motrin.It is important to treat asthma since you can have more permanent loss of pulmonary function.
There has been one study which has shown that fish oil can help relieve asthma. Calcium channel blockers have been used in asthma. Their action is like magnesium. Theophylline is still used in asthma, but it may be obsolete. Beta agonist drugs can sometimes worsen your overall mortality and risk from asthma. The reason is that inhaled beta agonists have been linked to deaths (fenoterol and albuterol). This is why we don't use albuterol. We will use a little bit of Proventil and asthma Cort.
Smoking has been linked to childhood asthma. Quinoline antibiotics, norfloxacin may be helpful in acute exacerbation of asthma. The CES device (see section 10) is an important dimension in asthma. Methotrexate has been used with severe pediatric asthma when it is being treated like an autoimmune disease. Low glutathione has been associated with asthma. Antioxidants have been shown to be imbalanced in asthmatics.
Seventy-four percent of asthmatics that were elite swimmers were diagnosed after swimming and chlorine was associated with the asthma. There is also evidence of exercise-induced asthma. Asthma has been shown to be relieved by aspirin in some cases. Physical exercise training can be very important in asthmatics.
Bacteria has been associated with the cause of asthma. Food sensitivities must be carefully evaluated. All antioxidants such as Vitamin E can be beneficial in asthmatics. Lithium has been used effectively to treat asthma.
The causes of occupational asthma are quite extensive. Sensitizing agents have been rats, mice, rabbits, guinea pigs, pigeons, chickens, grain, mites, moths, butterflies, crabs, prawns, wheat flour, rye flour, coffee beans, tea leaves, tobacco leaves, wood dust, biological enzyme, isothiocyanates which are in automobile spray paint, epoxy resins, plastics, metals, tanners, platinum refiners, metal platers, aluminum solderers, pharmaceutical workers, refrigeration workers, hairdressers, plastics and rubber workers, insulators and multiple chemicals of all types have been associated with asthma.
Posted by Simcha on June 23, 2003, at 1:02:37
In reply to Larry/Asthmatics, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 23:48:45
Hello,
> Asthma:
> Taken from the Wellness Manual
> Chapter 1 - Allergic Disorders, Pages 3 and 4
> By Dr. Eric Braverman
>
> There are increasing numbers of asthma cases documented in the United States because of indoor and environmental pollution, outdoor pollution, molds, cat danders, house dust, mites, and multiple other factors. If it can make you allergic, you can get asthma from it.
>
> Asthma is associated with sinusitis, hypertension, emphysema, heart failure, eczema, and respiratory failure. Asthma can occur in patients with pneumonia, fractured ribs, tuberculosis, and arthritis. All these conditions can interplay with asthma.OK, I had exczema and pneumonia often as a child.
> Asthmatic patients are frequently allergic to cockroaches, house dust, ragweed, rats, mice, etc.
Yes, I have many allergies.
> Asthma is well known to be a brain disorder. If you deplete certain neurotransmitters in the brain, tyrosine, phenylalanine, dopamine, and noracymethadol, you can have a dramatic increase in asthma.
Very interesting. I'd like to see the research that supports this. My searches in libraries and on the web don't support this. Please provide me with the research. I'd like to know if this is so.
> Asthma occurs during periods of stress and can be successfully treated by antidepressants. Medications like Dilantin and anticonvulsants can be dramatically helpful.
I find this interesting because I wasn't diagnosed with asthma until I had been on anti-depressants for at least two years. Also I'm on an anti-convulsant(Neurontin). My asthma diagnosis happened after I went on Neurontin. Also the only thing that seems to be helping my asthma are steroids. I took prednisone during a bad attack a few weeks ago and the attack was stopped in a few hours. Also I'm taking Azmacort inhaled corticosteroid. This seems to be helping.
> Yogurt has been shown to be helpful for bronchial asthma, as well as any relaxation technique, biofeedback, CES, prayer, etc.
Hmm. Yeah, some of this can be ok. I've seen more research that dairy products are bad for asthma since dairy increases mucous. Please provide me with the research. If I'm mistaken I'd like to know.
> Brain norepinephrine has been shown to be depleted in asthmatics, again pointing out the benefits of various asthmatic treatments.Really? I've been on Wellbutrin for over three years and it increases norepinephrine. I was diagnosed with asthma last November. Again, please provide me with some research data so I can study this. Maybe I need more norepinephrine.
>Antiasthmatic effects have been shown with onion extracts, as well as mustard oils.
Really? I have always eaten plenty of onions and mustard. Please provide me with some research. Maybe I need to eat more to get the benefits?
>Acupuncture has been recommended for asthma.
Hmm, well, Quackwatch seems to think that this is not so. Please show me some data that proves otherwise. I live in Chinatown in Oakland and I can get acupuncture by experts here.
>Vitamin C has been shown to reduce some of the lung hyper-responsiveness of asthmatics.
Interesting. Vitamin C seems to do so much. It seems like it is the wonder cure these days. Please show me the data. Maybe I need to start taking vitamin c chewables again.
>Intravenous magnesium has been shown to be useful in asthmatics.
Very interesting. I have not tried this ever. Please show me the research. Maybe I need to ask my doctor to inject me with magnesium.
>Diets high in sodium are dangerous for asthmatics.
Well, this is so for the general population, I believe.
>Inhalants are used by doctors, but certain inhalants will actually result in rebound wheezing, palpitations, and serious side effects due to the drugs.
Also the only thing that seems to be helping my asthma are steroids. I took prednisone during a bad attack a few weeks ago and the attack was stopped in a few hours. Also I'm taking Azmacort inhaled corticosteroid. This seems to be helping.
Also my doctor and all the literature out there says that if I'm having an asthma attack I should use my albuterol inhaler or some other fast-acting inhaler. Maybe I should not use these inhalers. Maybe I should go to the emergency room instead. Please show me the research and I can discuss this with my doctor.
> Avoidance of allergic foods can dramatically help asthmatics. As many as 93 percent are dramatically helped who have bronchial asthma. This can be tested through IGG testing.
Yes, this would be so if you have food allergies.
> Snow crab processing workers have a high rate of asthma. We recommend shell fishing be avoided by asthmatics. (Shell fish are essentially rodents.)
If you are allergic to shellfish this is especially so.
>Occupational hazard asthma occurs with exposure to nickel and other irritants.
Last time I checked nickel is not good for anyone.
> White wine can sometimes help asthmatics and sometimes may harm asthmatics. Sulfites have been linked to worsening asthma. Sulfites are found in fruit juices, soft drinks, wines, beers, cider vinegar, potato chips, dried fruits, and various vegetables.
Interesting. Please show me some research on this and I can eliminate these things from my diet and see if this helps.
>There is no doubt that one of the few benefits of coffee is that it can help asthma.
Really? Can't caffeine give heart palpatations like the asthma inhalers? Please show me some research. Maybe I need to eliminate my morning cup of coffee.
> Vitamin B-6 has been thought to be helpful for asthma.
This vitamin is good for everyone. I'm not sure why asthmatics should be taking supplements of this vitamin. If I had the research I could get some supplements today.
>Low selenium levels have been linked to asthma.
Interesting. Larry said something about this. Where is the research. Maybe I should really get more selenium?
>Bronchitis has been a cause of asthma and has been treated with N-acetylcystine.
I had bronchitis this winter. I haven't had it since I was a kid. The doc seemed to think that the bronchitis was caused by the asthma. He gave me antibiotics to treat the brochitis. Maybe he should have given me N-acetylcystine. Please show me the research so I can discuss this with my doctor.
>Asthma frequently goes undiagnosed and has been associated with depression. It is sometimes related to sleep disorder.
Hmm, I've been depressed all my life. I had unbearable insomnia until I started therapy ten years ago. Three years after I started medication for my depression and I've felt much better. Yet, last November I was diagnosed with asthma. Maybe I should see some research on this. Maybe I need to see my pdoc. Maybe we are both wrong that my depression is in remission and I need more medicine or different medicine for my depression. Maybe that will cure my asthma.
> Allergic rhinitis can be relieved by aspirin and Motrin.
Actually, I found this not to be the case at all. The only thing that has really relieved my allergic rhinitis is the snorted corticosteroid called Flonase. I can debunk this one without the research.
> It is important to treat asthma since you can have more permanent loss of pulmonary function.
This is absolutely true. 100% Please show me some research on the various treatments suggested above because I might need more treatment for my asthma if the Azmacort ever poops out.
> There has been one study which has shown that fish oil can help relieve asthma.
Hmm, I ate plenty of fish before I was diagnosed with asthma. Fish oil seems to be a wondercure for depression and asthma. Oh yeah, depression is the real condition under the asthma. Again, please show me some research. Maybe I should go to the health food store to get some fish oil.
>Calcium channel blockers have been used in asthma. Their action is like magnesium.
Please show me the research and I'll discuss this with my doctor. Very interesting...
>Theophylline is still used in asthma, but it may be obsolete.
Really, by whom? Please show me a study as to the effectiveness and I'll look for theophylline.
>Beta agonist drugs can sometimes worsen your overall mortality and risk from asthma. The reason is that inhaled beta agonists have been linked to deaths (fenoterol and albuterol). This is why we don't use albuterol. We will use a little bit of Proventil and asthma Cort.
Interesting, next time I have an asthma attack I'll just wait it out and call the ambulance if I really wig out. Please show me the research to back this up and I'll throw away my inhalers in front of my doctor.
> Smoking has been linked to childhood asthma.
I did not know that children were smoking...
But seriously, my parents both smoked. I actually think that the second hand smoke contributed to all of my lung problems when I was a child and it might be the precursor to my own asthma.
>Quinoline antibiotics, norfloxacin may be helpful in acute exacerbation of asthma.
Really, again, I'd like to see the research and bring it to my doctor.
>The CES device (see section 10) is an important dimension in asthma.
Not sure what this is, can you provide a link?
>Methotrexate has been used with severe pediatric asthma when it is being treated like an autoimmune disease.
Really? Research please...
>Low glutathione has been associated with asthma.
Really? Research please...
>Antioxidants have been shown to be imbalanced in asthmatics.
Hmm, I've been taking antioxidants for years. Maybe I'm not taking them in the proper proportion. Please give me the data and I can try to correct this.
> Seventy-four percent of asthmatics that were elite swimmers were diagnosed after swimming and chlorine was associated with the asthma.
Well, as a child I was on swim team every summer. Maybe this was a precursor to my asthma. Could you show me where this study is so I can read it? I'd really be interested.
>There is also evidence of exercise-induced asthma. Physical exercise training can be very important in asthmatics.
I've experienced exercise-induced asthma. I've seen studies where physical exercise is used to help asthmatics. You are supposed to use your albuterol before you exercise to stop exercise induced asthma. Oh yeah, that's right, I'm supposed to stop using my albuterol. Well, I'll go jogging without my couple of puffs of albuterol and I'll let you know. I live in a major city and there are plenty of people around who can call 911 for me if I end up short of breath.
>Asthma has been shown to be relieved by aspirin in some cases.
This is very debatable. I've seen studies that say that aspirin is bad for asthmatics. I still use it for the occasional headache and I don't notice any effect on my asthma either way.
> Bacteria has been associated with the cause of asthma.
Oh, then I should really look into those anti-biotics mentioned above. Again, please show me the study. I'd like to read it.
>Lithium has been used effectively to treat asthma.
I guess this would go with the other claims that depression is the underlying cause of asthma. Please provide the studies to support all of these claims. Maybe my pdoc and I should consider Lithium even though we both agree that my depression is in remission.
> The causes of occupational asthma are quite extensive. Sensitizing agents have been rats, mice, rabbits, guinea pigs, pigeons, chickens, grain, mites, moths, butterflies, crabs, prawns, wheat flour, rye flour, coffee beans, tea leaves, tobacco leaves, wood dust, biological enzyme, isothiocyanates which are in automobile spray paint, epoxy resins, plastics, metals, tanners, platinum refiners, metal platers, aluminum solderers, pharmaceutical workers, refrigeration workers, hairdressers, plastics and rubber workers, insulators and multiple chemicals of all types have been associated with asthma.
Yes, work can be a very triggering place for asthma, allergies, and depression. Maybe I should avoid work altogether. I could use the studies you provide to get on disability at work. Then maybe I won't have to work and I can cure my asthma at the same time.
I'm sorry to sound so sceptical. I've just read about so many bogus treatments for asthma. Honestly, I would like to see all of the research because, frankly, asthma is still a mystery to the medical community. Treatment options are out there and they don't work for everyone. Someday I might need an alternate treatment. So please, even though I sound sceptical and snide at times, I would really like to read the research. I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible about Asthma and it's treatment.
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 2:07:39
In reply to Lar, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 23:14:35
Lar, I know you've said that you enjoy questions...well, your expertise is in DIRE need at this thread on this board (here is a link): http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030619/msgs/236166.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 23, 2003, at 8:26:27
In reply to Larry/Asthmatics, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 23:48:45
> Lar, you're always helping everybody else out here....I happened to have this info so, just in case you (or others) may find it useful, here goes:
>
> Asthma:
> Taken from the Wellness Manual
> Chapter 1 - Allergic Disorders, Pages 3 and 4
> By Dr. Eric BravermanHey. Thanks for the effort in posting all that.
I have a problem with some of the ideas, though. They don't seem to be consistent with my own understanding and observations. I'm sorry, I don't have time to be more elaborate right now.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 23, 2003, at 8:39:01
In reply to LARRY HOOVER, Re: nutrients and asthma, posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 2:07:39
> Lar, I know you've said that you enjoy questions...well, your expertise is in DIRE need at this thread on this board (here is a link): http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030619/msgs/236166.html
I don't know that I'd have much to contribute to that discussion. Here's why.
Discussion of drug mechanisms are, to me, a lot like arguing religion or politics. Receptor affinities and subtypes and all that comes down to dogma, and in the end, the only thing that matters is, "Did this drug help McPac or not?"
I had a professor (also my supervisor) who used to call mechanistic arguments "hand waving", as in a bunch of kids in class, arms upraised, calling out, "I know!" "I know!" (and this was in regard to physical chemistry and chemical physics). The problem is, we don't know what these drugs do. We have some idea where they start to act on the brain (receptor types), but beyond that, it's all hand waving (dogma, IMHO).
Nutrient mechanisms, I look at differently. We know that e.g. vitamin C is essential for health. We probably don't come close to understanding all of the reasons why it is essential, but for the ones we do know, we can make health recommendations.
In simple terms, I perceive that drugs distort the body's innate functioning, whereas nutrients enhance it.
Lar
Posted by Sabina on June 23, 2003, at 8:44:21
In reply to Re:Asthmatics, nutrients asthma, Wow, All of it? » McPac, posted by Simcha on June 23, 2003, at 1:02:37
With or without any endorsement from Quackwatch, I will tell you that I suffered from chronic asthma and allergies that got progressively worse from the age of 3. I was treated with traditional medicine until the age of 18 with little success until I was unemployed, uninsured, and ready for disability and hospice care by the age of 32. As a last resort, I turned to Chinese-style acupuncture and herbal medicine. Within five months of treatment, I was nearly fully recovered. I was lucky to respond so well and I was as surprised as anyone, but that's my story. I wasn't on any other meds (except albuterol) at the time so I didn't have to worry about interactions with the herbs.
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 12:54:01
In reply to Re: LARRY HOOVER, Re: nutrients and asthma » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 23, 2003, at 8:39:01
(nm)
Posted by Simcha on June 24, 2003, at 7:59:05
In reply to Re: Asthma...personal experience w/ acupuncture. » Simcha, posted by Sabina on June 23, 2003, at 8:44:21
Sabina,
Thanks for the response. I was actually very serious about wanting to know if acupuncture has worked for asthmatics. I live in Chinatown in Oakland and there are plenty of practicioners to choose from. Maybe I should give it a whirl?
I have taken Traditional Chinese Medicine in the form of herbs. I did this once for a week after a car accident when I had many bruises. It seemed to help. I was on medication at the time so I only did it for a week.
I cannot do herbs as a long-term solution because of all the medication I take on a regular basis. Maybe acupuncture would be a good alternative that would not interfere with the medication I have to take for MDD and Asthma.
By the way I have Persistant Moderate to Severe Asthma. How bad was your Asthma and how long did it take for the acupuncture to work?
Thanks,
Simcha
> With or without any endorsement from Quackwatch, I will tell you that I suffered from chronic asthma and allergies that got progressively worse from the age of 3. I was treated with traditional medicine until the age of 18 with little success until I was unemployed, uninsured, and ready for disability and hospice care by the age of 32. As a last resort, I turned to Chinese-style acupuncture and herbal medicine. Within five months of treatment, I was nearly fully recovered. I was lucky to respond so well and I was as surprised as anyone, but that's my story. I wasn't on any other meds (except albuterol) at the time so I didn't have to worry about interactions with the herbs.
Posted by Sabina on June 24, 2003, at 13:26:56
In reply to Re: Asthma...experience w/ acupuncture. Thanks! » Sabina, posted by Simcha on June 24, 2003, at 7:59:05
You're quite welcome. I hope it works for you. I would not hesitate to characterise my asthma as quite severe. It was quite a few years ago, but I would say that I had a good deal of relief right away, within a few weeks. However, my O.M.D. (doctorate in Oriental medicine) had me on a daily tea of an herbal mixture that he concocted fresh especially for me. It tasted horrible, but I could tell that it made a big difference. I would still say to give acupuncture a try, even if your meds won't allow you to throw in all manner of herbs. I can literally say that it saved my life at the time.
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