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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 63 to 87 of 200. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ritch on February 6, 2002, at 1:02:54
In reply to Re: What about SSRI patch to bypass GI tract?, posted by djmmm on February 5, 2002, at 1:57:51
> >
> > Fascinating discussion (and link) about transdermal antidepressant application of selegiline. What about using a transdermal application for folks that happen to respond to SSRI's (like me), but who have nasty GI side effects from the extra serotonin released from all of the cells that line the GI tract (dyspepsia, GERD, diarrhea)? I wonder if there could be any benefit.
> >
> > Mitch
>
> selegiline is a very unique compound, not all antidepressants can be absorbed through the skin...in fact, I don't think any other antidepressants can, so a SSRI patch is out of the question.
I just remembered something that probably isn't too important...but..doxepin (Sinequan, Adapin, a TCA antidepressant) used to be available as a topical cream for dermatitis and hives, etc. a topical antihistamine. From what I recall there were warnings about using the cream over large areas of the body due to the absorption of the medication through the skin and it entering the bloodstream.Perhaps more transdermal applications of medications are not ventured because of factors other than *impossibility*. Perhaps it is not *easy* to do, not *practical*, or *marketable*. (little return on investment??)
Mitch
Posted by djmmm on February 6, 2002, at 2:25:40
In reply to Re: What about other AD transdermal patches? » djmmm, posted by Ritch on February 6, 2002, at 1:02:54
> > >
> > > Fascinating discussion (and link) about transdermal antidepressant application of selegiline. What about using a transdermal application for folks that happen to respond to SSRI's (like me), but who have nasty GI side effects from the extra serotonin released from all of the cells that line the GI tract (dyspepsia, GERD, diarrhea)? I wonder if there could be any benefit.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> > selegiline is a very unique compound, not all antidepressants can be absorbed through the skin...in fact, I don't think any other antidepressants can, so a SSRI patch is out of the question.
>
>
> I just remembered something that probably isn't too important...but..doxepin (Sinequan, Adapin, a TCA antidepressant) used to be available as a topical cream for dermatitis and hives, etc. a topical antihistamine. From what I recall there were warnings about using the cream over large areas of the body due to the absorption of the medication through the skin and it entering the bloodstream.
>
> Perhaps more transdermal applications of medications are not ventured because of factors other than *impossibility*. Perhaps it is not *easy* to do, not *practical*, or *marketable*. (little return on investment??)
>
> Mitch
I was wrong...after some searching, it seems that Buspar was tested in transdermal form, too.
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 6, 2002, at 3:58:06
In reply to Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by bonnie_ann on January 28, 2002, at 20:01:34
I've heard that elevated glucocortical hormone (the bodies cortisone)level is what may be responsible in the end for depression and Hippocampus damage. In a roundabout way SSRI's and Tricyclics seem to increase the uptake of glucocortical hormone I also remember hearing. Maybe there is a better way to accomplish this.
Scott
Posted by ben on February 6, 2002, at 7:48:47
In reply to Re: No cheese effect?--COOL-but how?, posted by OldSchool on February 5, 2002, at 20:48:02
I read the german monographies from Selegiline and Moclobemide ant it tells you the following:
1.Selegiline is a irreversible MAO-B inhibitor at low doses (5-10 mg/d p.o.) and loses the selectivity (inhibition of MAO-A too) at higher doses. There is no diet restriction needed BUT it is recommended to avoid tyramine rich food like cheddar...
2. Moclobemideis a reversible MAO-A inhibitor at low doses (-600 mg/d p.o.) and loses the selectivity (inhibition of MAO-B too) when given in higher doses (I guess more than 600/900 mg a day).There is no diet restriction needed BUT it is recommended to avoid tyramine rich food like cheddar...
Some pdocs use Moclobemide up to 1200 mg a day under blood pressure control if patients had only partial response OR are ultra rapid metabolizers (mephenytoin-polymorphism) !Conclusion: No diet restriction for Selegiline and Moclobemide in usual doses. The Cheese-like effect is mechanism based ! - and undepended of the drug form (oral/transdermal/i.v....).
Some points about the amphetamine-like metabolites:
-Do they occur only after first pass metabolism (I dont guess so because your body has to get rid of lipophilic drugs mostly over the liver ) !?
If they have really significant effects we should know the half-life of them and the therapeutic window - to see if our discussion about is really relevant.
-Thought they have no real amphetamine-like effects (and no bad side effects). Is this not an anectotal or are there new informations ?> Now you tell me if that would not be some shit or what? If you could take an MAOI but no MAOI diet?
>
> Old School
Posted by Ritch on February 6, 2002, at 9:37:49
In reply to Re: What about other AD transdermal patches?, posted by djmmm on February 6, 2002, at 2:25:40
> > > >
> > > > Fascinating discussion (and link) about transdermal antidepressant application of selegiline. What about using a transdermal application for folks that happen to respond to SSRI's (like me), but who have nasty GI side effects from the extra serotonin released from all of the cells that line the GI tract (dyspepsia, GERD, diarrhea)? I wonder if there could be any benefit.
> > > >
> > > > Mitch
> > >
> > > selegiline is a very unique compound, not all antidepressants can be absorbed through the skin...in fact, I don't think any other antidepressants can, so a SSRI patch is out of the question.
> >
> >
> > I just remembered something that probably isn't too important...but..doxepin (Sinequan, Adapin, a TCA antidepressant) used to be available as a topical cream for dermatitis and hives, etc. a topical antihistamine. From what I recall there were warnings about using the cream over large areas of the body due to the absorption of the medication through the skin and it entering the bloodstream.
> >
> > Perhaps more transdermal applications of medications are not ventured because of factors other than *impossibility*. Perhaps it is not *easy* to do, not *practical*, or *marketable*. (little return on investment??)
> >
> > Mitch
>
>
> I was wrong...after some searching, it seems that Buspar was tested in transdermal form, too.
>
> http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/2C1AE.htmWow, I just got another idea here. Maybe a lot of the transdermal delivery research on existing meds has precisely to do with profits?
Buspar is fixing to go generic soon I believe...
that is in pill form.
New delivery systems would guarantee the patent status of that formulation and maintain the income stream from the medication. All of the engineering costs would be involved with the delivery system alone, and subsequent trials wouldn't be as much of a dice throw-as there is already extensive clinical experience with the oral form..hmmmm.Mitch
Posted by ben on February 6, 2002, at 10:41:15
In reply to Glucocorticoid Sucker Upper, posted by Mr. Scott on February 6, 2002, at 3:58:06
If you are interested: make a research in PuMed under the author F. Holsboer (published a lot about CRF/CRH and mood disorders)
Unfortunately it isnt the HPA-axis alone causing depression !
> I've heard that elevated glucocortical hormone (the bodies cortisone)level is what may be responsible in the end for depression and Hippocampus damage. In a roundabout way SSRI's and Tricyclics seem to increase the uptake of glucocortical hormone I also remember hearing. Maybe there is a better way to accomplish this.
> Scott
Posted by OldSchool on February 6, 2002, at 12:05:12
In reply to Re: New Celexa...BORING! @ OldSchool, posted by djmmm on February 5, 2002, at 22:44:52
>
>
> Eric,
>
> also... by bypassing first pass metabolism, the l-amphetamine, and l-methamphetamine metablites are avoided...
>
> Im confused because Selegiline is a poor antidepressant (typically), Do you know the amount of selegiline absorbed through the skin? is it high enough that it is no longer selective to MAO-B?....
>
> ...also you still have to avoid all the medications that are on the MAOI list (ephedra, dextromethorphan, ventolin, etc)
>
> just some links:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7519005&dopt=Abstract
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2491941&dopt=Abstract
> )
Well, selegiline at the doses used for parkinsons is a poor antidepressant from what Ive read. The dose used for parkinsons is 10 mg. At this low a dose selegiline is a selective MAOI, for MAO-B only. At the 10 mg dose used for parkinsons you do not get any MAO-A. MAO-A is where you get the real antidepressant effect from. Parnate, Nardil and Marplan are all irreversible MAOIs and increase both MAO-B and MAO-A at the same time.From what Ive read Selegiline is a pretty good antidepressant IF you take higher doses of it, much higher than 10 mg. At higher doses of selegiline, it loses its selectivity for MAO-B and begins increasing MAO-A. Thus the antidepressant effect kicks in. The problem with this is that as soon as selegiline begins becoming irreversible at the high doses needed to be an antidepressant, the "cheese effect" kicks in as selegiline becomes a plain old regular MAOI like Parnate. Thus the MAOI diet must be followed with dosages above 10 mg.
I read all this stuff over on the tips and tricks of this site. Just look up MAOIs and pick the selegiline link.
Posted by Bekka H. on February 6, 2002, at 19:15:21
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by OldSchool on January 31, 2002, at 16:49:29
> > This is so stupid. Another new SSRI. We already have enough SSRIs on the market, we dont need more. Instead of newer SSRIs how about something new and novel? Like substance P, MAOI patches, etc. This "new and improved" SSRI gets FDA approval? LOL How much do you wanna bet the new selegiline MAOI patch gets shot down by the FDA? A drug that could actually make a difference like the MAOI patch will probably not get passed, but more "me too" SSRIs glide thru easily.
> > > What a crock.
> > > Old School
> Scott, I seriously doubt any real treatment resistant people are going to be helped by a "new and improved" Celexa. Get real. Its a waste of time. Celexa is already good enough. Develop another kind of drug and move on.
> Old School************************************************
Old School, those are my sentiments exactly! I've had it with those wimpogenic, fat-causing, impotence causing, sedating, apathy-producing compounds. I have yet to understand how a drug that makes most people fat, impotent, wimpy blobs could be considered an ANTIDEPRESSANT. It's all in the marketing and in paying off the doctors who run the clinical trials to tell the public what it wants to hear. I believe that there MIGHT be a few exceptions, but most of the people I know of who have been on SSRIs are not happy with the results. Quite frankly, I think the SSRIs are quite dangerous in some cases. Patients get so apathetic on them that they stop caring that they don't care; consequently, they are unlikely to report some of these adverse effects to their doctors. And I think a lot of doctors like the SSRIs because their patients get so wimpy and complacent on them that they don't bother their shrinks as much. They stop complaining about things they should be complaining about, and their docs can spend more time thinking about golf or the stock market.
I'd also like to know why these scientists can't come up with an effective drug that doesn't cause weight gain. And, if they did produce such a drug (for example, a Remeron-type medicine WITHOUT the Remeron weight gain), I'll bet the FDA wouldn't even approve it. They'd be too afraid that, like amineptine, it might make people feel too good (Oh my Lord, what a concept!), and they'd ban it for eternity.
Posted by OldSchool on February 7, 2002, at 10:54:38
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by Bekka H. on February 6, 2002, at 19:15:21
> Old School, those are my sentiments exactly! I've had it with those wimpogenic, fat-causing, impotence causing, sedating, apathy-producing compounds. I have yet to understand how a drug that makes most people fat, impotent, wimpy blobs could be considered an ANTIDEPRESSANT.
The above side effects are the least of my concerns. I could care less an antidepressant makes me gain some weight or causes sexual dysfunction. My beef with the SSRIs is that these drugs simply DO NOT WORK good enough in a percentage of depressed people...approximately 20% to 30% of those with major depression. For me, SSRIs are better than nothing and I take them gladly. The side effect profile to me is rather benign considering the severity of my depression when Im off medication. As I said before, I could give a f*ck about SSRI side effects. My attitude is "suck it up" at least it makes your depression better. At least the SSRIs allow me to sleep and stuff.
But again, Id like to see something better developed. Im not anti-SSRI by any means. I think SSRIs are great meds and work for the majority. Just not for everybody. What about those people? What happens to them? Are they just f*cked for the rest of their life, relegated to a life of disability, maintenance ECT and hanging out on psychobabble, looking for that next "better" drug?
>It's all in the marketing and in paying off the doctors who run the clinical trials to tell the public what it wants to hear. I believe that there MIGHT be a few exceptions, but most of the people I know of who have been on SSRIs are not happy with the results. Quite frankly, I think the SSRIs are quite dangerous in some cases. Patients get so apathetic on them that they stop caring that they don't care; consequently, they are unlikely to report some of these adverse effects to their doctors. And I think a lot of doctors like the SSRIs because their patients get so wimpy and complacent on them that they don't bother their shrinks as much. They stop complaining about things they should be complaining about, and their docs can spend more time thinking about golf or the stock market.
>
> I'd also like to know why these scientists can't come up with an effective drug that doesn't cause weight gain. And, if they did produce such a drug (for example, a Remeron-type medicine WITHOUT the Remeron weight gain), I'll bet the FDA wouldn't even approve it. They'd be too afraid that, like amineptine, it might make people feel too good (Oh my Lord, what a concept!), and they'd ban it for eternity.Weight gain is not a concern of mine. When youve been to the bottom of the pit...super duper severe clinical depression and your sleep locks up on you and you lose 20 or 30 lbs without even trying...you get to a point where you could care less about weight gain from drugs.
Id like to see some antidepressants developed SPECIFICALLY for that 20% to 30% of depressives who do not adequately respond to SSRIs, Effexor or tricyclics. Side effects for me is a nonissue...as long as it activates good consistently for long periods without poop out, restores my cognition, sleeping and ability to work would be satisfactory to me.
Old School
Posted by spike4848 on February 8, 2002, at 0:30:47
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by OldSchool on February 7, 2002, at 10:54:38
>My beef with the SSRIs is that these drugs simply DO NOT WORK good enough in a percentage of depressed people...approximately 20% to 30% of those with major depression.> Old School
Once again .... I totally agree with Old School. And if you press the pdocs hard enough, they will admit that the SSRIs are pretty weak antidepressants compared to the TCAs/MAOIs. They will tell you that the quality response to SSRIs is moderate at best .... the patients are still impaired. SSRIs are basically mindless to prescribe for the pdocs .... dosing is easy, little risk of OD, fewer drug interactions and lots of perks from the drug representative (dinner, gifts, etc). And the drug studies are designed by idiots .... they say a patient whose symptoms decrease by 50% is a responder to a medication. Take my symptoms and decrease them by 50% and I just can make it out of bed. I don't call that a response.
Donald Klein .... one of the Godfathers of psychiatry from Columbia ..... is currently making a HUGE beef with todays drug trials and drug companies. He is breaking the silence amongst the pdoc and pushing for better drug trials. Trials with stricter definitions of response and including patients with moderate to severe depression. He is calling to revamp the whole system ..... he admits that there are still up to 30-50% of patients with no response or inadequate response to medications. Finally a pdoc with some guts!
So giving the world the isomer of Celexa just doesn't cut it for me and so many millions of patients with severe depression ...... give us a potent med to knock the crap out of the this depression.
Spike
Posted by spike4848 on February 8, 2002, at 1:22:54
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by OldSchool on February 7, 2002, at 10:54:38
>Are they just f*cked for the rest of their life, relegated to a life of disability, maintenance ECT and hanging out on psychobabble, looking for that next "better" drug?My feelings exactly .... I was reading the New York magazine. It was the "Singles" issue. It talked about how the average individual in NYC had 3 sexual partners per year. It also talk about the frequency of dating, blah, blah. And here I am reading psychobabble and pubmed every night trying to figure a way out of this hell .... everyone else is choosing whom they should have sex with! This sucks.
Spike
Posted by BobS. on February 8, 2002, at 6:53:20
In reply to Screw Lexa! » OldSchool, posted by spike4848 on February 8, 2002, at 0:30:47
Spike,
Where's is the article, or whatever, from Klein? Thanks,
BobS.
>
> >My beef with the SSRIs is that these drugs simply DO NOT WORK good enough in a percentage of depressed people...approximately 20% to 30% of those with major depression.
>
> > Old School
>
> Once again .... I totally agree with Old School. And if you press the pdocs hard enough, they will admit that the SSRIs are pretty weak antidepressants compared to the TCAs/MAOIs. They will tell you that the quality response to SSRIs is moderate at best .... the patients are still impaired. SSRIs are basically mindless to prescribe for the pdocs .... dosing is easy, little risk of OD, fewer drug interactions and lots of perks from the drug representative (dinner, gifts, etc). And the drug studies are designed by idiots .... they say a patient whose symptoms decrease by 50% is a responder to a medication. Take my symptoms and decrease them by 50% and I just can make it out of bed. I don't call that a response.
>
> Donald Klein .... one of the Godfathers of psychiatry from Columbia ..... is currently making a HUGE beef with todays drug trials and drug companies. He is breaking the silence amongst the pdoc and pushing for better drug trials. Trials with stricter definitions of response and including patients with moderate to severe depression. He is calling to revamp the whole system ..... he admits that there are still up to 30-50% of patients with no response or inadequate response to medications. Finally a pdoc with some guts!
>
> So giving the world the isomer of Celexa just doesn't cut it for me and so many millions of patients with severe depression ...... give us a potent med to knock the crap out of the this depression.
>
> Spike
Posted by Bekka H. on February 8, 2002, at 20:43:53
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by OldSchool on February 7, 2002, at 10:54:38
OK, Old School, I'm glad that you have found some relief from SSRIs, but I have not, and I know many others who have not. I understand that you are willing to put up with some side effects if the med alleviates some of the ways in which your depression manifests itself. For me, the most prominent adverse effects of SSRIs are the drug-induced apathy, severe prostration, and lack of motivation. Those symptoms do not represent alleviation of my depression; if anything, they indicate that my depression has been exacerbated.
Posted by OldSchool on February 8, 2002, at 20:52:01
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by Bekka H. on February 8, 2002, at 20:43:53
> OK, Old School, I'm glad that you have found some relief from SSRIs, but I have not, and I know many others who have not. I understand that you are willing to put up with some side effects if the med alleviates some of the ways in which your depression manifests itself. For me, the most prominent adverse effects of SSRIs are the drug-induced apathy, severe prostration, and lack of motivation. Those symptoms do not represent alleviation of my depression; if anything, they indicate that my depression has been exacerbated.
Ever tried Wellbutrin? Thats a drug that shouldnt cause apathy. What about psychostimulants like Ritalin?
Old School
Posted by cisco on February 8, 2002, at 22:07:34
In reply to Re: Forest Labs gets US conditional approval for Lexa., posted by OldSchool on February 7, 2002, at 10:54:38
Dear Old School:
I have to agree with you. As far as I am concerned, ALL anti-depressants are basically crude compounds, whose side-effects occassionaly relieve the depression of a statistically insignificant minority. While the majority suffer the main effects of these 'Drugs' that can only be described as neurotoxins.
God help the Pharmaceutical Co. that develops anything that actually makes you 'feel good'. It will be Scheduled and restricted along side the rest of the known compounds that have any useful
psycho-active component.We are living in the new 'Dark Ages'. Welcome back to the USSA.
Cisco
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 22:42:36
In reply to I am in Psychobabble, everyone else having sex!, posted by spike4848 on February 8, 2002, at 1:22:54
>I know, I haven't gotten laid in 2 years & that b*tch was fat (good thing I was wasted drunk at the time)! Of course I live in Texas where you practically have to marry a girl to have sex with her. But, still, I need to start living life, having fun, & stop reading so much of psychopharmacology- all these psychiatric drugs look great on paper but turn out to be crapola in real life. Maybe instead of buying a bunch of expensive psychiatric drugs for next month I should just buy a $500 hooker!
> >Are they just f*cked for the rest of their life, relegated to a life of disability, maintenance ECT and hanging out on psychobabble, looking for that next "better" drug?
>
> My feelings exactly .... I was reading the New York magazine. It was the "Singles" issue. It talked about how the average individual in NYC had 3 sexual partners per year. It also talk about the frequency of dating, blah, blah. And here I am reading psychobabble and pubmed every night trying to figure a way out of this hell .... everyone else is choosing whom they should have sex with! This sucks.
>
> Spike
Posted by Bekka H. on February 8, 2002, at 23:48:10
In reply to I know, I haven't got laid in 2 years!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 22:42:36
> >I know, I haven't gotten laid in 2 years & that b*tch was fat (good thing I was wasted drunk at the time)! Of course I live in Texas where you practically have to marry a girl to have sex with her. But, still, I need to start living life, having fun, & stop reading so much of psychopharmacology- all these psychiatric drugs look great on paper but turn out to be crapola in real life. Maybe instead of buying a bunch of expensive psychiatric drugs for next month I should just buy a $500 hooker!
>
************************************************Well, if that's what you decide to do, just don't forget the condoms.
Posted by Cecilia on February 9, 2002, at 1:14:57
In reply to I know, I haven't got laid in 2 years!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 22:42:36
> I don`t think your problem in finding sex partners is due to your depression, it`s due to your attitude towards women. Cecilia
Posted by jane d on February 9, 2002, at 13:52:54
In reply to Re: Attitude to Women-3 Beer Effect, posted by Cecilia on February 9, 2002, at 1:14:57
Thanks. I wanted to say much the same thing but ended up having to delete what I wrote.
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 9, 2002, at 14:40:17
In reply to I know, I haven't got laid in 2 years!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 22:42:36
You're in 'the club' after 1 month which puts you in 24 times over!!
Surely you can conceal your madness enough to get laid.
I suggest you get busy. According to evolutionary theory anyways if you don't use something for a while it disappears. Like limbs becoming fins on the Whale which supposedly once lived on Earth.
Regards,
Scott
Posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 14:47:24
In reply to Thanks for responding » Cecilia, posted by jane d on February 9, 2002, at 13:52:54
No wonder it seems like men & women can come from different worlds. Women generally equate sex with love, warmth, & a relationship. And many men generally equate it with recreation & release of tension.
I agree with the women's viewpoint. If you really want good sex, men, you need to form a strong bond. Good sex without love is just an illusion. A great physical feeling at the time, but doesn't last beyond the act.
Posted by bob on February 9, 2002, at 15:18:04
In reply to Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 14:47:24
IsoM:
Are you male or female?
Posted by christophrejmc on February 9, 2002, at 15:34:05
In reply to Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 14:47:24
> No wonder it seems like men & women can come from different worlds. Women generally equate sex with love, warmth, & a relationship. And many men generally equate it with recreation & release of tension.
>
> I agree with the women's viewpoint. If you really want good sex, men, you need to form a strong bond. Good sex without love is just an illusion. A great physical feeling at the time, but doesn't last beyond the act.
Hmm, I must have bad luck. I've had both sex without love and love without sex (neither my decision) but never the two together. Perhaps it's just typical teenager stuff, but I haven't met anyone who's wanted both, male or female.I think both types of relationships can be fulfilling/unfulfilling for both partners; the key is not to mislead the other person.
Posted by bob on February 9, 2002, at 15:35:57
In reply to Two years is pathetic 3 beers!! » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Mr. Scott on February 9, 2002, at 14:40:17
Scott:
Are you kidding, or being serious? How would you suggest that someone "get busy" if they are taking say... an MAOI or Tricyclic? Even most SSRIs and Effexor impair sex quite significantly at robust therapeutic doses.
For me, there was always almost a direct relationship between how sexual I felt, and how depressed I was becoming. Any drug that was effective in taking away depression, took away at the very least, my ability to have sex. Some took away both the desire and the ability. Either is unacceptable. If you have a strong desire, but cannot perform, than what good is it? It becomes a trap of frustration.
Posted by OldSchool on February 9, 2002, at 15:36:47
In reply to Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 14:47:24
> No wonder it seems like men & women can come from different worlds. Women generally equate sex with love, warmth, & a relationship. And many men generally equate it with recreation & release of tension.
LOL Thats basically what sex is from the male point of view. Recreation and a release of tension AKA "getting off." Men like to get off and roll over and fall asleep. Not very romantic, but in reality its how most men are.
>
> I agree with the women's viewpoint. If you really want good sex, men, you need to form a strong bond. Good sex without love is just an illusion. A great physical feeling at the time, but doesn't last beyond the act.LOL I could make a reply but Im going to hold off cause I dont want to be blocked. Id also like to say that I havent had a good sex drive in four years and its dropped off even more in the last year. Id love to be able to have "animal lust" feelings again. Ditch the romance stuff...Id just like to feel horny again for a change.
Old School
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