![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2000, at 9:05:51
In reply to Pdoc visit and yet another new med...., posted by Greg on August 1, 2000, at 7:56:23
I wouldn't reccomend cooking with it!! :o) Cooking it released something with the THC an dmake sit actually stronger - and more likely to cause anxiety an dpanic. Smoking it tends to make you mellower than eating it.
Greg, as I've told you before, I tend to smoke regularly (but not HUGE amounts). I find it helps relax me, and causes my brain to slow down, and stop thoughts rushing round them. Also, it *really* helps with the sleeping - calms the dreams down as well as helping me to actually sleep.
Good luck hun.. a nd you know where I am if needed OK?
n xx
Posted by dove on August 3, 2000, at 16:08:59
In reply to That other thing!!, posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2000, at 9:05:51
Greg, are you bipolar, or some combo of anxiety-depression? I have a medium sized history of self-medication w/ illicit substances and there was one that really messed with both my anxiety and depression and that was MJ. Talk about paranoia and panic attacks, talk about finding life hopelessly worthless. A little bit initially gave me a warm relaxed feeling, but that soon wore off, leaving something very ugly, and a strong desire to do a little bit more again, and again. I tried pumping up the amount to cover longer periods of time, but that caused the same negative-ugly symptoms only amplified.
Does anyone remember how dull, colorless, boring, lethargic and stifled everything seemed when straight? Leaving the MJ and walking the straight line was like checking out of life in general. I despised that feeling, as if life was so boring and colorless that I needed a drug to paint it vibrant. Anxiety was strongly in place a mere 20-30 minutes afterwards. And only intensified as the hours wore on. Depression, what can I say, ugly and unmanagable, the only reason I didn't do something about any of these feelings was because I was too darn lazy. How could I get off the couch and organize a riot, or a jump into the netherworld for that matter. So, if the doc is looking for something to physically slow you down, this would be the one to try. But... If your doc is looking for something to soothe anxiety, helplessness, hopelessness, this may be a bad choice.
MJ turns the heat up under anxiety in a significant manner, both in intensity and frequency, and I cannot emphasize this enough. It really did a number on me, I was a social butterfly, everyone knew me, I was wanted at every party, every social gathering, I had so many friends (and as a teenager boyfriends), only to find myself unable to leave the house, ride in cars with someone else driving, meet new people, and unable to fellowship with family or friends under almost any circumstances.
Also the spiritual aspect of MJ makes me leery (and not Timothy), it's like opening a door to your soul, and I don't want to open a door, a window would be much better, with iron bars and grates to keep out the demons. I think many people underestimate the legitimacy of spirit and soul, and the unseen immaterial world. For me, MJ definitely has the power to make me extremely vulnerable, opening many many doors that should remain closed, locked, and mortared (not the shelled kind but the cement kind.) shut, permanently.
Just some light thoughts :-) My best wishes and love I send to thee ((Greg))
dove
p.s. Digesting MJ (though food and stuff) does have a different "flavor" than inhaled, and increased anxiety is a big one. Same goes for hash.
Posted by Greg on August 3, 2000, at 17:33:12
In reply to New meds and the downside, posted by dove on August 3, 2000, at 16:08:59
Wow!
Little did I know that mentioning the use of pot would spur such interesting responses. I'm amazed that they were so equally divided too. I wanted to make sure you all knew that this was just a suggestion by my doc for a possible alternative in the future, and I am not using it now.
Out of all the drugs I used in my younger (much) days, and I tried almost all of them, I liked pot the most. I haven't used it in almost 15 years, but I still think about it from time to time. I remember feeling relaxed and calm when I smoked it, something that is sadly lacking in my life now. I have no clue how I would react to it today, I'm definitely not the same person I was then. I haven't always been the angel that I am today... I was a wild child with an attitude and didn't think that anything could ever harm me. I've grown up a lot since then. I just don't know what to do with what I've been feeling lately and quite honestly, I'm getting a little desperate for answers. I should be starting therapy next week, and while that "can of worms" still scares the bejesus out of me, I'm trying to remain optomistic. I can assure you this, whatever doc and I decide to do it will be well thought out and closely supervised. I have way too much to lose and I'm way too old to chance losing it.
Thanks to everyone for your great feedback! I will think them all over and read them at least another dozen times each before making a decision. It's nice to have people who care.
Greg
Posted by Cam W. on August 3, 2000, at 18:52:09
In reply to Re: The Marijuana Diaries, posted by Greg on August 3, 2000, at 17:33:12
I used to think that marijuana was a fairly inocuous drug, but I have seen instances of psychosis-like reactions to it and it has been implicated as a trigger in first-break of bipolar disorder. Also, I have noticed that when some of my clients with schizophrenia, when they smoke pot they seem to relapse. The relapse may not have been caused by the pot, though. When I've asked them about this, they just said the pot made them feel better. They may have used the pot to try to stop the relapse from happening; sort of a self-medicating kind of thing.
For most people, marijuana is probably not harmful when compared to some diversions, but it does alter perception (do not operate machinery), and can cause a mild psychological addiction.
Also, I have a question. Does marijuana smoking cause apathy or does apathy cause marijuana smoking?
This is my "quarter's" worth, but I bet it doesn't make and "ounce" of sense. - Cam
=^)
Posted by shar on August 3, 2000, at 20:17:55
In reply to Re: The Marijuana Diaries, posted by Cam W. on August 3, 2000, at 18:52:09
When I was in my teen years and everyone was drinking, I couldn't. I would drink maybe half a beer and barf. So, I was the designated driver. Also, did not do MJ then.
I guess about age 21 I tried MJ and it was SO great, good mood, easy laugh, getting slowed down so slowwwww it was funny. I remember (later) trying to read a sales agreement my friend signed when she bought a sofa on credit, and we ended up in a heap on the floor; we could hardly get through one sentence of the small print and understand it.
Oh well. What happened years later was MJ stopped being fun. I would have a toke or two, and start feeling bad, like it was dooms day, paranoid, and terrified.
So, it was about then I started drinking (at a family reunion) and lo and behold I had gotten over my "allergy" or whatever it was that kept me sober in my youth. So, then I started drinking way too much, and now I don't drink anymore.
But, when it worked, MJ got me through some very bad times, helped me plane out, made life a bit more humorous. I don't know why the switch flipped on it.
Anyway, about the act of smoking--my understanding is that MJ is much worse than cigarettes for you. Or that could be propaganda. There is a lot of propaganda out there.
Everybody, all together now....
S
Posted by Nibor on August 3, 2000, at 22:25:54
In reply to Smoking MJ=Not Healthy ?(Rambling), posted by shar on August 3, 2000, at 20:17:55
This has been an interesting discussion. Greg, I too, haven't used grass in over 20 years--except for 3 or 4 spread-over-time occasions (the last time 13 years ago). And I'm pretty sure I would become paranoid if I got high; mostly I think it would be because things become so clear, and the reality of being old would hit hard. I think marijuana (and of course Orange Sunshine, et al) is for the young--and young at heart wouldn't cut it. But I wouldn't trade the memories for anything.
Nibor
Posted by danf on August 4, 2000, at 17:00:51
In reply to You can't go back, but thanks for the memories, posted by Nibor on August 3, 2000, at 22:25:54
speaking of MJ.
How many of you use bug spray on a regular basis. The organophosphates & other bug poisions kill bugs by paralysis. In people they are of 'minor concern' & supposed to have little effect.
Is it possible our depression & anxiety, which is basically an autonomic dysfunction, was caused by exposure to bug posions ??? & maybe on the MJ ?
I have put out gallons of the stuff, almost every ####ion bug killer known to man.
comments ?
Posted by shar on August 4, 2000, at 18:33:24
In reply to Re: You can't go back, but thanks for the memories, posted by danf on August 4, 2000, at 17:00:51
I was depressed for many years before using MJ.
But, your theory may apply to others. Bug spray isn't just on the MJ, but everywhere. DDT wasn't banned until I was older, so I suppose I got my share of that. But that begs the question, why isn't my sister depressed as well?
I think you make a good point--environmental considerations can't be completely ruled out. Probably, it is a combo of factors in which chemicals might play a part.
Shar
Posted by MisterB on August 4, 2000, at 20:38:07
In reply to Re: One other thing..., posted by cakes on August 2, 2000, at 9:28:35
A few notes ... medical marijuana users say they prefer smoking cannibas to Marinol pills because they can control the dose ... my recollection is that taking a toke or two at a time let them down-regulate the imediate dose and extend the period of the drugs effect. Other Marinol (pharmaceutical synthetic THC) users told me the federally licensed pills do not effect them as intensly as does the popular but illegal plant medication, which they prefered.
Cooking tends to delay the effect. I don't think injested cannibas gets a person any higher, but the delay between the time one eats it and the time it takes effect can cause sort of a surprise when, all of a sudden, one realizes their consciousness is altered. Smoking anything delivers the active ingredients to the blood almost immediately, reaching the brain almost as fast as an injection, and causing an intense rush. I wonder if the anxiety is as much a product of the sudden change as it is of the specific neurotropic effect.
I appreciate the idea that pot is for young people. I recently heard Grace Slick say in an interview that old people don't belong on a rock-n-roll stage. But then I've seen the Starship's fiddle player Papa John Creech in his 70s saunter on stage, thrust his pelvis, grap his crotch and send a mixed-age crowd into timeless ecstacy (not the drug) with his psychadelic, sensual electric fiddle. Mick Jagger still rocks, too. Aerosmith...
Oh, we were talking pot....
I should not say which well-known national news anchor asked my friend to hook him up with some weed when he came to town for a speaking engagement.
There are actually quite a few older people who secretly smoke. Many use it to counter what could be described as depression. My inquiries indicated that doctors prescribe pot only for glaucoma and anorexia for political reasons ... the cause for medical marijuana would not be well served if it were touted as an anti-depressant.
Old folks have more to loose, physically and socially, from smoking. People, as they get older, tend
Posted by JennyR on August 4, 2000, at 20:54:32
In reply to Re: Pdoc visit and yet another new med JennyR, posted by Cindy W on August 1, 2000, at 22:19:12
I wrote a reply to you and now I see it never appeared - I hope this makes it. Sorry for the delay.
I can understand why you'd object to what your therapist said. They are supposed to remain neutral and let you sort out your own stuff. There were a couple of times I was upset with things my therapist said (or didn't say that I would have liked him to have said). I brought it up, though it was hard, and talking it out helped. In my case it was mostly me putting a negative spin, distorting. I'm not at all saying that's what you are doing. But it does help to address it. I know when things feel out of synch with me and him (rarely) it is extremely distressing for me. But talking it out has always had a very positive result. Let me know what happens. Good luck.
Posted by Cindy W on August 4, 2000, at 22:22:51
In reply to Reply to Cindy W, posted by JennyR on August 4, 2000, at 20:54:32
> I wrote a reply to you and now I see it never appeared - I hope this makes it. Sorry for the delay.
> I can understand why you'd object to what your therapist said. They are supposed to remain neutral and let you sort out your own stuff. There were a couple of times I was upset with things my therapist said (or didn't say that I would have liked him to have said). I brought it up, though it was hard, and talking it out helped. In my case it was mostly me putting a negative spin, distorting. I'm not at all saying that's what you are doing. But it does help to address it. I know when things feel out of synch with me and him (rarely) it is extremely distressing for me. But talking it out has always had a very positive result. Let me know what happens. Good luck.JennyR, thank you for your kind words! i think you're the only person who replied to what i posted. i feel puzzled and hurt about him saying, "so just do it!" and his angry tone, since it was such a change from his usual kind, compassionate demeanor. maybe it is a therapeutic intervention, to get me to get off my butt, i don't know. i made another appt. but am seriously canceling it since i feel that since i can't just "file" i am a total failure and wasting his time. i still feel very afraid. i decreased my Effexor-XR from 375 to 300 mg/day and will try decreasing it further if i decide not to go back, since i won't be able to take it without going back to my pdoc. in the meantime, i've run into him and work and avoided even eye contact because i'm afraid he'll pick up on my being upset. i still think the world of him, have a crush on him, think he's the greatest, but don't want to talk to him if he's sick and tired of my procrastinating and not changing fast enough. i should be able to take action but feel kind of paralyzed and don't know how to break out of this, but will keep trying. hope things are getting better for you, JennyR!
Posted by danf on August 5, 2000, at 8:47:50
In reply to Re: Reply to Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on August 4, 2000, at 22:22:51
cindy,
I think you read too much into the therapists remark...
decreasing your meds & stopping therapy is a bad moove.... please don't do this.
Your last post made the other make more sense... you have been seperated for 4 years, living on your own.. the therapist is right.. there is little insight to be gained after 4 years apart...correction there is still insight but time for this is no longer of consequence... the action is.. & he was right when he said just do it.
therapists are not always supposed to be neutral... sometimes they state the obvious which we have ignored.
please do not view a statement of the obvious as a judgment of you.
remember, when meds seem to be not working well, therapy does not go well either.
hang in there. yell at us here on the babble board & not your therapist.
pulling for you
Posted by Greg on August 5, 2000, at 10:13:42
In reply to Re: Pdoc visit and yet another new med JennyR, posted by Cindy W on August 1, 2000, at 22:19:12
Cindy,
Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
Hugs,
Greg> > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
>
> JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!
Posted by ksvt on August 5, 2000, at 12:02:32
In reply to Re: To Cindy, posted by Greg on August 5, 2000, at 10:13:42
> Cindy,
>
> Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
>
> Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
>
> I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
>
> Hugs,
> Greg
>
> > > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
> >
> > JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!Cindy - I've never contemplated going off meds when things are going well, only when they're going lousy like they are for you right now. You're going to find it much easier to deal with your issues with your therapist and divorce issues with the stability support that effexor obviously gives you. Besides, if you really think you should cut things off with this doc (and it really sounds to me like you shouldn't and certainly not without discussing some of this with him) than there are other sources for effexor. You don't have to quit the meds if you quit the pdoc. hang in there, ksvt
Posted by Cindy W on August 5, 2000, at 23:15:06
In reply to Re: To Cindy, posted by ksvt on August 5, 2000, at 12:02:32
> > Cindy,
> >
> > Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
> >
> > Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
> >
> > I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
> >
> > Hugs,
> > Greg
> >
> > > > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
> > >
> > > JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!
>
> Cindy - I've never contemplated going off meds when things are going well, only when they're going lousy like they are for you right now. You're going to find it much easier to deal with your issues with your therapist and divorce issues with the stability support that effexor obviously gives you. Besides, if you really think you should cut things off with this doc (and it really sounds to me like you shouldn't and certainly not without discussing some of this with him) than there are other sources for effexor. You don't have to quit the meds if you quit the pdoc. hang in there, ksvtdanf, greg, and kvst, thank you for your responses! have been doing a lot of thinking, and what really bothers me about the last pdoc visit was that he seemed so judgmental, after so many visits of not judging. He said i should get a divorce because "you're sleeping with another man," and i really feel like a slut or something after he said that. i know that sounds silly, but i guess the old fashioned upbringing still bothers me deep inside. i hadn't felt guilty until now. (i apologize for the small letters; my computer is acting really weird.) how can i face my pdoc, thinking about how he'd be in the sack, while he's busy telling me how immoral i am, already. probably he just wants me to "shit or get off the pot" because all i've done is whine for a year about being indecisive; but it still really hurts when he gives me a push. Am now on Effexor-XR (now it capitalizes!!! go figure) 300 mg/day, and after the initial dizziness of the withdrawal the past four days, don't feel all that bad. maybe what bothers me is that i've come to feel numb inside, and can't cry even when i'd like to cry. all my feelings (anger, hurt, joy, sadness) are more intellectual than viscerally or emotionally felt. Will see how it goes over the next couple of weeks before deciding whether to further decrease the meds and stop seeing my pdoc. Again, thanks for your caring!
Posted by Cindy W on August 6, 2000, at 22:09:48
In reply to Re: To Cindy, posted by Cindy W on August 5, 2000, at 23:15:06
> > > Cindy,
> > >
> > > Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
> > >
> > > Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
> > >
> > > I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
> > >
> > > Hugs,
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > > > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
> > > >
> > > > JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!
> >
> > Cindy - I've never contemplated going off meds when things are going well, only when they're going lousy like they are for you right now. You're going to find it much easier to deal with your issues with your therapist and divorce issues with the stability support that effexor obviously gives you. Besides, if you really think you should cut things off with this doc (and it really sounds to me like you shouldn't and certainly not without discussing some of this with him) than there are other sources for effexor. You don't have to quit the meds if you quit the pdoc. hang in there, ksvt
>
> danf, greg, and kvst, thank you for your responses! have been doing a lot of thinking, and what really bothers me about the last pdoc visit was that he seemed so judgmental, after so many visits of not judging. He said i should get a divorce because "you're sleeping with another man," and i really feel like a slut or something after he said that. i know that sounds silly, but i guess the old fashioned upbringing still bothers me deep inside. i hadn't felt guilty until now. (i apologize for the small letters; my computer is acting really weird.) how can i face my pdoc, thinking about how he'd be in the sack, while he's busy telling me how immoral i am, already. probably he just wants me to "shit or get off the pot" because all i've done is whine for a year about being indecisive; but it still really hurts when he gives me a push. Am now on Effexor-XR (now it capitalizes!!! go figure) 300 mg/day, and after the initial dizziness of the withdrawal the past four days, don't feel all that bad. maybe what bothers me is that i've come to feel numb inside, and can't cry even when i'd like to cry. all my feelings (anger, hurt, joy, sadness) are more intellectual than viscerally or emotionally felt. Will see how it goes over the next couple of weeks before deciding whether to further decrease the meds and stop seeing my pdoc. Again, thanks for your caring!I noticed nobody answered my earlier email. Hope you all don't think I'm a real shit. There are a lot of reasons for why i have done what i have done (i was faithful for 24 years, despite my partner's infidelity; he prefers teenage girl pictures over the net to me, and there is nothing left; haven't had sex with my husband for over l0 years; we've lived apart for 4 and have frequently discussed divorce; my s.o. is now 3,000 miles away;i'm only a few years from possible retirement, and don't know what i want out of life anymore). is everybody giving me a scarlet letter or does anybody out there understand. This is why it's so hard to go back to my pdoc, since i feel so very judged despite the circumstances.
Posted by Noa on August 9, 2000, at 11:51:01
In reply to Pdoc visit and yet another new med...., posted by Greg on August 1, 2000, at 7:56:23
Hey, Greg.
Didn't read all the posts in this thread, but wanted to respond to yours.
Starting therapy is a good idea. As for opening the can of worms, what you can do is ask the therapist in the initial (trial) appointment how he or she would help you with the feeling of being overwhelmed by the proverbial wormcan. What you are looking for, I suspect, is a therapist that will help you manage this phenomenon by helping you feel in control of what cans are opened when and how much, and how to shut them up if needed, etc. Therapy need not be the stereotypical drastic baring of the soul and exposing oneself to all the traumas of the past. Good therapy is as much about learning to guage and navigate the therapeutic process as it is about any of the content of one's psyche.
Good luck.
Posted by Cindy W on August 13, 2000, at 23:02:06
In reply to Re: To Cindy; p.s., posted by Cindy W on August 6, 2000, at 22:09:48
> > > > Cindy,
> > > >
> > > > Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
> > > >
> > > > Hugs,
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > > > > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
> > > > >
> > > > > JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!
> > >
> > > Cindy - I've never contemplated going off meds when things are going well, only when they're going lousy like they are for you right now. You're going to find it much easier to deal with your issues with your therapist and divorce issues with the stability support that effexor obviously gives you. Besides, if you really think you should cut things off with this doc (and it really sounds to me like you shouldn't and certainly not without discussing some of this with him) than there are other sources for effexor. You don't have to quit the meds if you quit the pdoc. hang in there, ksvt
> >
> > danf, greg, and kvst, thank you for your responses! have been doing a lot of thinking, and what really bothers me about the last pdoc visit was that he seemed so judgmental, after so many visits of not judging. He said i should get a divorce because "you're sleeping with another man," and i really feel like a slut or something after he said that. i know that sounds silly, but i guess the old fashioned upbringing still bothers me deep inside. i hadn't felt guilty until now. (i apologize for the small letters; my computer is acting really weird.) how can i face my pdoc, thinking about how he'd be in the sack, while he's busy telling me how immoral i am, already. probably he just wants me to "shit or get off the pot" because all i've done is whine for a year about being indecisive; but it still really hurts when he gives me a push. Am now on Effexor-XR (now it capitalizes!!! go figure) 300 mg/day, and after the initial dizziness of the withdrawal the past four days, don't feel all that bad. maybe what bothers me is that i've come to feel numb inside, and can't cry even when i'd like to cry. all my feelings (anger, hurt, joy, sadness) are more intellectual than viscerally or emotionally felt. Will see how it goes over the next couple of weeks before deciding whether to further decrease the meds and stop seeing my pdoc. Again, thanks for your caring!
>
> I noticed nobody answered my earlier email. Hope you all don't think I'm a real shit. There are a lot of reasons for why i have done what i have done (i was faithful for 24 years, despite my partner's infidelity; he prefers teenage girl pictures over the net to me, and there is nothing left; haven't had sex with my husband for over l0 years; we've lived apart for 4 and have frequently discussed divorce; my s.o. is now 3,000 miles away;i'm only a few years from possible retirement, and don't know what i want out of life anymore). is everybody giving me a scarlet letter or does anybody out there understand. This is why it's so hard to go back to my pdoc, since i feel so very judged despite the circumstances.Nobody ever answered my post; i hope that doesn't mean i deserve a scarlet letter! Am only a week away from my next scheduled pdoc appt., and am trying to decide whether to cancel it, talk to him by phone, or go in person; and don't know whether to ever even go back. Change is very hard...esp. with OCD! I can't make up my mind about what to wear to work everyday, much less what to do with the rest of my life. Any ideas about how to make decisions such as this? Thanks!--Scarlet Woman
Posted by Cindy W on August 20, 2000, at 19:53:35
In reply to still worried, posted by Cindy W on August 13, 2000, at 23:02:06
> > > > > Cindy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Meant to respond to this sooner, I'm really sorry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe your therapist thinks you're ready to take the next step. I would hope this would be an affirmation of your growth. If you're not ready, then tell your therapist that. But maybe you're ready for more than you think you are. It might help to not look at this as an ending, but a new beginning. But do what you feel is right for you. I would suggest not walking away from a person that's been am intergal part of your life for so long without at least discussing your feelings with them first, but if you feel strongly enough about it then do it. Your health and happiness are the most important things, to you and to us. We love and support you here. Change is the hardest thing for us to overcome and I understand how you feel. Baby steps Cindy, baby steps.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this works out for you and you are in my thoughts. Please let me know how it goes, OK?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hugs,
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > > > The part about concern about the psychotherapist - opening a can of worms and more crap to deal with - I understand having hesitation. But to me, therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself. If you find a therapist you really click with, it can be really wonderful. To be listened to like you never have been, understood like you never have been is great. As far as what content you get into and how deeply, with a good therapist you set the pace and you deal with what you can handle as you can handle it. I have gotten so much out of my therapy (2 1/2 years) that I can't recommend it strongly enough. It's the first place where my perspective was taken as valid. I'm used to being negated. I feel so supported by my therapist. It is the most nurtured I've ever been by anybody (and I'm married for 15 years). The content has been very painful, but the support, the caring make it bearable and enable me to figure out what I have to. I urge you to give it a try. You'll know early on if you click with that person.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JennyR, I went to see my pdoc today and am thinking of discontinuing therapy, now. After about a year of coming to really feel understood and cared about, today I felt like just giving up and never going back. I'm trying to get the courage to divorce (have been married 26 years) and he said, "just do it!" and that insight doesn't matter (which is probably true), but I feel too really scared to take action. So now I feel hurt and am decreasing my antidepressant (Effexor-XR) so that I can perhaps change pdocs, although I've been crazy about him until now. The medication helped decrease the OCD and depression to the point where I can begin to handle other problems in my life, but I'm so afraid, I feel paralyzed still. I feel like he was saying, either do it, or don't come back anymore whining about things. Probably he is right, but I still can't handle the fears (mostly of my own feelings). I've lived separately now for almost four years, so know I can take care of myself. I feel so ashamed, guilty, and hurt. What did you do when you felt like quitting therapy, if things ever seemed too much to handle too fast? I'd like to get the worms back in the can and not open any more cans of worms right now!
> > > >
> > > > Cindy - I've never contemplated going off meds when things are going well, only when they're going lousy like they are for you right now. You're going to find it much easier to deal with your issues with your therapist and divorce issues with the stability support that effexor obviously gives you. Besides, if you really think you should cut things off with this doc (and it really sounds to me like you shouldn't and certainly not without discussing some of this with him) than there are other sources for effexor. You don't have to quit the meds if you quit the pdoc. hang in there, ksvt
> > >
> > > danf, greg, and kvst, thank you for your responses! have been doing a lot of thinking, and what really bothers me about the last pdoc visit was that he seemed so judgmental, after so many visits of not judging. He said i should get a divorce because "you're sleeping with another man," and i really feel like a slut or something after he said that. i know that sounds silly, but i guess the old fashioned upbringing still bothers me deep inside. i hadn't felt guilty until now. (i apologize for the small letters; my computer is acting really weird.) how can i face my pdoc, thinking about how he'd be in the sack, while he's busy telling me how immoral i am, already. probably he just wants me to "shit or get off the pot" because all i've done is whine for a year about being indecisive; but it still really hurts when he gives me a push. Am now on Effexor-XR (now it capitalizes!!! go figure) 300 mg/day, and after the initial dizziness of the withdrawal the past four days, don't feel all that bad. maybe what bothers me is that i've come to feel numb inside, and can't cry even when i'd like to cry. all my feelings (anger, hurt, joy, sadness) are more intellectual than viscerally or emotionally felt. Will see how it goes over the next couple of weeks before deciding whether to further decrease the meds and stop seeing my pdoc. Again, thanks for your caring!
> >
> > I noticed nobody answered my earlier email. Hope you all don't think I'm a real shit. There are a lot of reasons for why i have done what i have done (i was faithful for 24 years, despite my partner's infidelity; he prefers teenage girl pictures over the net to me, and there is nothing left; haven't had sex with my husband for over l0 years; we've lived apart for 4 and have frequently discussed divorce; my s.o. is now 3,000 miles away;i'm only a few years from possible retirement, and don't know what i want out of life anymore). is everybody giving me a scarlet letter or does anybody out there understand. This is why it's so hard to go back to my pdoc, since i feel so very judged despite the circumstances.
>
> Nobody ever answered my post; i hope that doesn't mean i deserve a scarlet letter! Am only a week away from my next scheduled pdoc appt., and am trying to decide whether to cancel it, talk to him by phone, or go in person; and don't know whether to ever even go back. Change is very hard...esp. with OCD! I can't make up my mind about what to wear to work everyday, much less what to do with the rest of my life. Any ideas about how to make decisions such as this? Thanks!--Scarlet WomanAm I a pariah? Nobody ever answered. Have to see my pdoc tomorrow, and don't know whether to just quit therapy, quit Effexor-XR, or hang in there. Have decided to go and at least tell him how I feel (hurt, afraid).--Cindy W
Posted by allisonm on August 20, 2000, at 21:21:14
In reply to Re: still worried, posted by Cindy W on August 20, 2000, at 19:53:35
> > Nobody ever answered my post; i hope that doesn't mean i deserve a scarlet letter! Am only a week away from my next scheduled pdoc appt., and am trying to decide whether to cancel it, talk to him by phone, or go in person; and don't know whether to ever even go back. Change is very hard...esp. with OCD! I can't make up my mind about what to wear to work everyday, much less what to do with the rest of my life. Any ideas about how to make decisions such as this? Thanks!--Scarlet Woman
>
> Am I a pariah? Nobody ever answered. Have to see my pdoc tomorrow, and don't know whether to just quit therapy, quit Effexor-XR, or hang in there. Have decided to go and at least tell him how I feel (hurt, afraid).--Cindy WHi Cindy,
No you are not a pariah! Nothing of the sort. I'm sorry I didn't answer your earlier posts. I thought the others were more eloquent than mine would be and made a similar point.
I have many times felt like quitting therapy and meds --- always when I was feeling my worst. I knew that if I did it, it likely would lead to suicide and that was OK. I knew it was the wrong thing to do. I never did end up doing it. I'm glad.
IMHO, I think you should talk about your feelings with your doc. They are trained to hear anything, so I doubt that morality was really an issue. If it was -- if he was judging you -- then it's probably time to move on. I guess you'll find out when you talk with him. I guess I wouldn't stop the Effexor if it's been working.
If you have no relationship with your husband, I'd get that divorce. Why keep yourself in limbo? I had to be separated for a year before I could divorce. It was hellish. I couldn't wait to be free and get my real name back. I unexpectedly had an affair with a married man shortly after my husband moved out. I told my doctor. I was embarrrassed, but he never judged me. It's his job to help me see why I do things. I'd clarify what your doctor meant. It may be your own feelings that are tainting your impression of his reaction.
Be well and best wishes,
allison
Posted by Cindy W on August 21, 2000, at 2:32:44
In reply to Re: still worried » Cindy W, posted by allisonm on August 20, 2000, at 21:21:14
> > > Nobody ever answered my post; i hope that doesn't mean i deserve a scarlet letter! Am only a week away from my next scheduled pdoc appt., and am trying to decide whether to cancel it, talk to him by phone, or go in person; and don't know whether to ever even go back. Change is very hard...esp. with OCD! I can't make up my mind about what to wear to work everyday, much less what to do with the rest of my life. Any ideas about how to make decisions such as this? Thanks!--Scarlet Woman
> >
> > Am I a pariah? Nobody ever answered. Have to see my pdoc tomorrow, and don't know whether to just quit therapy, quit Effexor-XR, or hang in there. Have decided to go and at least tell him how I feel (hurt, afraid).--Cindy W
>
> Hi Cindy,
>
> No you are not a pariah! Nothing of the sort. I'm sorry I didn't answer your earlier posts. I thought the others were more eloquent than mine would be and made a similar point.
>
> I have many times felt like quitting therapy and meds --- always when I was feeling my worst. I knew that if I did it, it likely would lead to suicide and that was OK. I knew it was the wrong thing to do. I never did end up doing it. I'm glad.
>
> IMHO, I think you should talk about your feelings with your doc. They are trained to hear anything, so I doubt that morality was really an issue. If it was -- if he was judging you -- then it's probably time to move on. I guess you'll find out when you talk with him. I guess I wouldn't stop the Effexor if it's been working.
>
> If you have no relationship with your husband, I'd get that divorce. Why keep yourself in limbo? I had to be separated for a year before I could divorce. It was hellish. I couldn't wait to be free and get my real name back. I unexpectedly had an affair with a married man shortly after my husband moved out. I told my doctor. I was embarrrassed, but he never judged me. It's his job to help me see why I do things. I'd clarify what your doctor meant. It may be your own feelings that are tainting your impression of his reaction.
>
> Be well and best wishes,
> allison
Allison, thank you for your post! Will try to talk about it all with my pdoc tomorrow afternoon. You sound much braver than me. I've been separated for about 4 years now, but am so afraid because I've married for 24 years, half of my lifetime. I feel very confused, afraid, and alone and am very afraid my pdoc will reject me too. Will let you know what happens.
Posted by allisonm on August 21, 2000, at 22:00:53
In reply to Re: still worried Allison, posted by Cindy W on August 21, 2000, at 2:32:44
> Allison, thank you for your post! Will try to talk about it all with my pdoc tomorrow afternoon. You sound much braver than me. I've been separated for about 4 years now, but am so afraid because I've married for 24 years, half of my lifetime. I feel very confused, afraid, and alone and am very afraid my pdoc will reject me too. Will let you know what happens.
Cindy, how did it go?
I was crushed when my husband told me two years ago that he didn't love me anymore. We'd been through hell together over 12 years. I couldn't understand how things would fall apart now. It didn't make sense. Now that he's gone, I have had a lot of time to see just how much of myself I lost in this relationship -- how much of myself I gave up in order to "fit in." How much I bent to keep the peace. It wasn't worth it. I'm glad he's gone. He did me a big favor by leaving. I have had a lot of people let me down int he last few years. Seems every other time I see my psychiatrist, he's pointing out how I've been let down here, there, everywhere. I am terrified of people leaving me. I can see patterns of this in many of the things that I do. I am trying to correct that.
If there's nothing there for you with your husband, no use keeping yourself tied to him. It sounds as though you've pretty much freed yourself if you've found an SO and haven't been with your husband for that many years. I'd finish it. What is there to lose? Just my .02 to add to yesterday's .02...
I hope things went well today. I'd hate to see you have to find another doc and change your meds if this setup is working. It takes so much work to switch.
Anyway, take care and let me know how you are.
Best wishes,
allison
Posted by Cindy W on August 22, 2000, at 1:14:34
In reply to how did it go? » Cindy W, posted by allisonm on August 21, 2000, at 22:00:53
> > Allison, thank you for your post! Will try to talk about it all with my pdoc tomorrow afternoon. You sound much braver than me. I've been separated for about 4 years now, but am so afraid because I've married for 24 years, half of my lifetime. I feel very confused, afraid, and alone and am very afraid my pdoc will reject me too. Will let you know what happens.
>
> Cindy, how did it go?
>
> I was crushed when my husband told me two years ago that he didn't love me anymore. We'd been through hell together over 12 years. I couldn't understand how things would fall apart now. It didn't make sense. Now that he's gone, I have had a lot of time to see just how much of myself I lost in this relationship -- how much of myself I gave up in order to "fit in." How much I bent to keep the peace. It wasn't worth it. I'm glad he's gone. He did me a big favor by leaving. I have had a lot of people let me down int he last few years. Seems every other time I see my psychiatrist, he's pointing out how I've been let down here, there, everywhere. I am terrified of people leaving me. I can see patterns of this in many of the things that I do. I am trying to correct that.
>
> If there's nothing there for you with your husband, no use keeping yourself tied to him. It sounds as though you've pretty much freed yourself if you've found an SO and haven't been with your husband for that many years. I'd finish it. What is there to lose? Just my .02 to add to yesterday's .02...
>
> I hope things went well today. I'd hate to see you have to find another doc and change your meds if this setup is working. It takes so much work to switch.
>
> Anyway, take care and let me know how you are.
>
> Best wishes,
> allisonAllison, thanks for asking! I went to the pdoc (really scared he'd be mad at me). My computer is acting up, so don't know how far I'll get writing this! Anyway, he was very nice a
nd said he didn't want me to feel rejected for not being able to file
yet. All the things you say are true for me and my marriage, but I'm still so afraid to
end it. so will keep at it and see if i can change, in my old age (48). --Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on August 22, 2000, at 8:40:45
In reply to Re: how did it go? allisonm, posted by Cindy W on August 22, 2000, at 1:14:34
> > > Allison, thank you for your post! Will try to talk about it all with my pdoc tomorrow afternoon. You sound much braver than me. I've been separated for about 4 years now, but am so afraid because I've married for 24 years, half of my lifetime. I feel very confused, afraid, and alone and am very afraid my pdoc will reject me too. Will let you know what happens.
> >
> > Cindy, how did it go?
> >
> > I was crushed when my husband told me two years ago that he didn't love me anymore. We'd been through hell together over 12 years. I couldn't understand how things would fall apart now. It didn't make sense. Now that he's gone, I have had a lot of time to see just how much of myself I lost in this relationship -- how much of myself I gave up in order to "fit in." How much I bent to keep the peace. It wasn't worth it. I'm glad he's gone. He did me a big favor by leaving. I have had a lot of people let me down int he last few years. Seems every other time I see my psychiatrist, he's pointing out how I've been let down here, there, everywhere. I am terrified of people leaving me. I can see patterns of this in many of the things that I do. I am trying to correct that.
> >
> > If there's nothing there for you with your husband, no use keeping yourself tied to him. It sounds as though you've pretty much freed yourself if you've found an SO and haven't been with your husband for that many years. I'd finish it. What is there to lose? Just my .02 to add to yesterday's .02...
> >
> > I hope things went well today. I'd hate to see you have to find another doc and change your meds if this setup is working. It takes so much work to switch.
> >
> > Anyway, take care and let me know how you are.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > allison
>
> Allison, thanks for asking! I went to the pdoc (really scared he'd be mad at me). My computer is acting up, so don't know how far I'll get writing this! Anyway, he was very nice a
> nd said he didn't want me to feel rejected for not being able to file
> yet. All the things you say are true for me and my marriage, but I'm still so afraid to
> end it. so will keep at it and see if i can change, in my old age (48). --Cindy WAllison, don't know if you got my earlier post before it got archived. Will think about what you wrote and ponder it, now that I'm awake again!--Cindy W
Posted by allisonm on August 23, 2000, at 6:07:40
In reply to Re: how did it go? allisonm, posted by Cindy W on August 22, 2000, at 8:40:45
Cindy W,
Oh, good! I'm glad your pdoc was accepting. What about the Effexor? Did you talk with him about that?
Allison
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