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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by TamaraJ on May 13, 2005, at 12:45:44
In reply to Re: Well said Tamara (nm), posted by Phil on May 12, 2005, at 18:17:49
Posted by TamaraJ on May 13, 2005, at 16:06:06
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
I just wanted to share a couple of excerpts by AA members from an AA book called Daily Reflections, which gets to the heart of alcoholism:
TOTAL ACCEPTANCE
"He cannot picture life without alcohol. Some day he will be unable to imagine life either with alcohol or without it. Then he will know loneliness such as few do. He will be at the jumping-off place. He will wish for the end."
"Only an alcoholic can understand the exact meaning of a statement like this one. The double standard that help me captive as an active alcoholic also filled me with terror and confusion: "If I don't get a drink I'm going to die," competed with "If I continue drinking it's going to kill me." Both compulsive thoughts pushed me ever closer to the bottom. That bottom produced a total acceptance of my alcoholism - with no reservation whatsoever - and one that was absolutely essential for my recovery. It was a dilemma unlike anything I had ever faced, but as I found out later on, a necessary one if I was to succeed in this program."
WOULD A DRINK HELP?
"By going back in our own drinking histories, we could show that years before we realized it we were out of control, that our drinking even then was no mere habit, that it was indeed the beginning of a fatal progression."
"When I was still drinking, I couldn't respond to any of life's situations the way other, more healthy, people could. The smallest incident triggered a state of mind that believed I had to have a drink to numb my feelings. But the numbing did not improve the situation, so I sought further escape in the bottle. Today I must be aware of my alcoholism. I cannot afford to believe that I have gained control of my drinking - or again I will think I have gained control of my life. Such a feeling of control is fatal to my recovery."
Posted by Slinky on May 13, 2005, at 21:28:41
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » Slinky, posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 9:28:49
Good to meet you too Sunny,
It's so true about excercise..I keep attempting this trampette thing.
I almost bought some roller skates but I'm a bit self conscious -the kids will laugh at me..I'm 38.
I rarely see my boyfriend..and believe me he wouldn't excercise : )
To see him rollerskate would lift my misery for a while..he's 54 and overweight..
My passion is water I'd love to swim..if I had my own pool my mood disorder would be controlled..I'm sure of it.For me it's all 'ifs'
I have to watch myself I'm prone to walking outside but in the middle of the night..to stop this mental itch.Slinky
Posted by Declan on May 14, 2005, at 18:25:31
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by just so sad on May 12, 2005, at 13:29:22
There'd be a lot of Europeans who drink a fair bit, but spread it out over the whole day, but then its part of their culture etc. Certainly not like that here.
Declan
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by Declan on May 14, 2005, at 18:25:31
Thanks everyone! I am trying so hard to understand addictions so i can be of some help but it really sounds like threre isn't much that can be done. it seems like the person going through it is the key. Is it wrong of me to criticize this persons use? Is it more harmful than helpful to pretend it doesnt exist or that we believe them that it isn't happening and we dont notice the smell(we know) or should I be very open about it and confrontational?
one last question...is it normal to go thorugh detoxs on a regular basis (I know it is very dangerous...but)??
Thanks so much!
Posted by TamaraJ on May 15, 2005, at 13:15:00
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
It's hard for anyone who is on the outside looking in. It is not wrong of you, IMO, to criticize the person's using and express concern. Unfortunately, more often than not, the criticism and concern just falls on deaf ears. Most alcoholics and addicts are pretty good at rationalizing their use as well as playing the victim. And, one person trying to get someone to stop often isn't enough. There are usually enablers in the person's life who won't or can't take a hard line with the person and will always be there to pick up the pieces. The sad truth is that many alcoholics/addicts won't stop using and get help until they hit bottom, which could include their enablers turning their backs on the person.
I don't know much about the effects of multiple detoxes, but I would think that it would be very hard on a person's system.
Tamara
> Thanks everyone! I am trying so hard to understand addictions so i can be of some help but it really sounds like threre isn't much that can be done. it seems like the person going through it is the key. Is it wrong of me to criticize this persons use? Is it more harmful than helpful to pretend it doesnt exist or that we believe them that it isn't happening and we dont notice the smell(we know) or should I be very open about it and confrontational?
> one last question...is it normal to go thorugh detoxs on a regular basis (I know it is very dangerous...but)??
> Thanks so much!
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 16, 2005, at 10:55:38
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » rainbowbrite, posted by TamaraJ on May 15, 2005, at 13:15:00
Thanks, its so hard to know what to do or not to do.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 10:19:27
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » sunny10, posted by Slinky on May 13, 2005, at 21:28:41
Can you join the local YMCA for the pool privileges?
Posted by AuntieMel on May 17, 2005, at 11:54:52
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
I'm not sure how close you are to this person or how far you can take this.....
The first thing to go in addiction is honesty. So anything you can do get the person to be honest with him/her self will help.
If you are close enough and can - you could have a direct (but kind) talk that goes like:
I know you are drinking. And I know you are not ready to stop. I will make a deal with you - I will not nag you about your drinking if you will not lie to me about it. I want the topic to be open, like the weather, not hidden.
Then stick to it. But you are allowed to insist a person not drive, for example, and calmly give a reminder of work the next day }as long as you only say it once.}
With me confrontaion was the least useful strategy. It did nothing but make me more stubborn and try harder to hide it.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:53:24
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it » rainbowbrite, posted by AuntieMel on May 17, 2005, at 11:54:52
from the prospective of "the nag", I concur with AuntieMel...
nagging doesn't work and, in my situation, actually made it worse...
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 17, 2005, at 17:17:18
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:53:24
Yeah thats true.
Im a nag, but i stopped nagging. It hasnt changed much but I know there is much more to it. UGh I wish there was more I could do.
i mean there really isnt but??rain (pulling out her hair)
thanks guys!
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:59:10
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it, posted by rainbowbrite on May 17, 2005, at 17:17:18
you say that there isn't a way, but have you tried AuntieMel's suggestion?
I think it has a great deal of merit because it brings the substance abuse out in the open without being negative. If it's out in the open, he'll have to see it as "his problem", not "hiding something my girlfriend doesn't like"...
monsters like alcoholism like to hide in the dark... bring it into the light like AuntieMel said and it can't hide from itself nearly so well...
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 18, 2005, at 10:49:49
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:59:10
well I have tried some of those things. (it isnt my bf.. I am uncomfortable saying who it is.)
Ignoring Ive done, and it is not something I allow to be private. I am very very confrontational by nature so this one is hard to slip by me. But others around me try to hush the topic, pretend it isnt happening. Ive always wondered if I am wrong. (apparently I have caused this person to relapse several times)
This person knows they have the problem, admits to it and even kind of likes the label I think. Its just at times they try to hide it before they go Full blown openly drunk and not caring who knows anymore. (that is the stage it was at when I posted....now...well its on route)
The hiding was abolished once I put together a form of intervention and made 'everyone' involved actually get involved. that didnt last long but at least everyone now knows how lethal the problem is. for what ever reason it ended up in my lap a long long time ago. I dont mind I really dont. I would do ANYTHING, absolutely ANYTHING for this person if I new that it would help them for good. did I even answer your question? I got lost on a tangent sorry.
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 12:00:11
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 18, 2005, at 10:49:49
first and foremost, you didn't cause any relapses.
You do not have the power to reach your thoughts into their head and move their muscles to bring drink to mouth...
Sorry, but you simply do not have that power...
Another sorry, but the only thing you can do is not enable the behavior. I don't agree that you are the one responsible for whether this person gets help. AuntieMel will be the first to tell you that only that person can get help for themselves.
Me being the person I am, I would tell this person that I will no longer be around to watch them kill themselves and that I will not be there for them until they go get help for themselves. Because in the past I've been a codependent enabler and I refuse to go down that path and hurt myself all over again.
I did what felt right for me after I sat down and wrote out the pros and cons of the current situation and list possible actions on my part and possible outcomes. If you're anything at all like me, you've got a million and one scenarios running around in your head. For me, it turned out to be a list of "If he, then I" scenarios. I had to turn those scenarios around to make them about what would benefit ME- the one that was left that would benefit both of us (painful or not)was the right one for me to choose.
-sunny10
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 18, 2005, at 12:27:27
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it » rainbowbrite, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 12:00:11
>>first and foremost, you didn't cause any relapses.
>>You do not have the power to reach your thoughts into their head and move their muscles to bring drink to mouth...
>>Sorry, but you simply do not have that power...
Is that absolutely positively true?
i cant tell you the number of times I have heard I triggered a relapse or made the drinking worse, or that I will trigger the person if i do x,y or z. And this is from other people as well not just the person. I often dont listen and will do or say whatever anyway and often they end up right and I look like I was the cause. i hear what you are saying about the power.im not guilty of enabling anymore, but others absolutely are. this is where all my 'work' gets ruined. I wish it was me doing it cause then maybe things could change. it just feels hopeless. and I am so sad for this person.
Thanks for the support
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 16:51:05
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 18, 2005, at 12:27:27
and, yes, it is absolutely, positively true.
Unless you drive a car over someone, or in some other way take an ACTION that physically harms another human being, you are not the cause of them being hurt.
Them's fightin' words here at Babble sometimes, but it's true.
You can say anything you like to me- I'm the one who needs to choose how I will respond to what you say or think about me. And that will, knowing me, entirely depend upon how I am feeling at that given moment about many other things. You don't have the power to hurt me emotionally- only I do.
You can calculately, mean-spiritedly, choose a time to pick on me when you can tell I am already down, and I will hurt more, but you can not bring me down emotionally unless I let you.
By the same token, no matter what you say or what you don't say, how you act, react or refuse to act or react, has no bearing ultimately on what another person chooses to do. Drink, do drugs, engage in violent behavior, whatever. Only we have the power to make choices for us. We can HAND over the power (dependency and co-dependency) in our MINDS, but not in reality.
As a former co-dependent, I have learned these difficult lessons. A lot of them didn't make me feel too highly about myself for a while, but then I realized that I can't change what has already passed. I could only choose to change how I act, react, et cetera, in the present and in the future. Oh, yeah, and not emotionally hand my life over to someone I "love" on a silver platter to allow them to abuse me in any way they see fit...
These were my lessons. If parts of them feel familiar and you can incorporate them to help you in your situation, please do. If not, then thanks for reading what I've learned.
-sunny10
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 11:32:31
In reply to Re: you're welcome to any support I can give » rainbowbrite, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 16:51:05
Thanks! Some of that might possibly be vaguely familiar. i wish I could spread these words around the situation and people involved. Well maybe I can.
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 11:46:28
In reply to Re: you're welcome to any support I can give » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 11:32:31
how others react to you is their issue...(smile)
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 11:53:50
In reply to Re: as I said you CAN do whatever you like, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 11:46:28
haha got it :-) Youre good!
grrr this is so frustrating!!
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 12:12:52
In reply to Re: as I said you CAN do whatever you like » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 11:53:50
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 18:33:03
In reply to Re: no denying it's frustrating!!! (nm) » rainbowbrite, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 12:12:52
Ok so i have recieved 5 phone calls in 1 hour. The first sounded ok and then it quickly deteriorated until there was such a drawl from slurring that I could barely make out the words. After the 2nd call i have not picked up. Im ignoring....they are out and I am the person of choice tonight, so is this what I should be doing? I guess after the first call would haev been ideal.
Thanks
Posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 13:53:59
In reply to am i doing this right??, posted by rainbowbrite on May 19, 2005, at 18:33:03
IN MY OPINION---
you are only doing it right if you've already had the conversation where you TOLD THEM that you would be ignoring them until they go get help...And talking to them while they are temporarily sober is not the answer, either. You are rewarding them for "not drinking right now" instead of taking a stance that you will not be there for them until they get professional help to stop drinking at all. The only way to not enable at this point is to not be involved until they agree to get help. If they want a ride to the clinic, yes, please, by all means give them a ride.... Matter of fact, having gone through this before myself , I told my "them" to call me for the ride when they were ready to go- otherwise I wouldn't speak to them at all. That was when I put my foot down- of course, it was academic because this was at the intervention, but the offer of a ride was accepted and appreciated (later!)...They won't understand the statement that you are trying to make unless you actually make the statement!!!
It's the open communication that is the key. "Isms" like to hide...it is harder on the ism when things are out in the open...
Posted by AuntieMel on May 20, 2005, at 14:01:46
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 18, 2005, at 12:27:27
Sunny is right - you can't cause a relapse. However you can be used as an *excuse* for relapsing, like one is needed.
The only way for you to cause a relapse would be for you to tie the person down, open their mouth and pour the booze in.
If a person wants to use bad enough he'll get the drug. You could tie him to your leg, stay tied all day long and then turn around and - how did that happen?
One of our counselors told us that recovering addicts are the future CEOs of the world - we're smart, cunning, personable enough to look trustworthy - etc.
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 21, 2005, at 7:48:19
In reply to Re: another possible way to handle it, posted by AuntieMel on May 20, 2005, at 14:01:46
that makes sense.
I have said that I will ignore before but then time goes by and words fade. I need to work on that becasue if I stuck to everything that I have ever said to this person, I should never see them again. Now the good thing is that I say it mosly when they are drunk so it probably doesnt soak in.Consistency is important. Im going to take a new approach to this mess and see how it goes.
techniquely I guess it is my responsibility how 'I' react to this person and how I feel in response. They cant make me feel, although the way they act is pretty powerful.
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 11:49:29
In reply to thanks guys, posted by rainbowbrite on May 21, 2005, at 7:48:19
I have trouble creating boundaries and keeping myself to them. I have been utilizing my new T and folks here on Babble to help me stick with a boundary I've made about my SO...
If you have the same trouble, feel free to post to me instead of breaking down and talking to your addict, okay?
If I remember correctly, my ex-husband used to call me just to piss me off so that I would call him back... if your addict does the same, don't fall for it! I did- many times until having a conversation with someone who was an AA sponsor.
Write here instead and pretend to be yelling at them... I wish I had known about Babble when I went through this before. And AuntieMel has been a source of inspiration for me in dealing with my SO now.
You have a resource- utilize us!!! And you are helping me stay firm just by having the chance to write out to you what AuntieMel explained to ME! Babble is a wonderful resource.
Keep us posted, at least- just want to know that you're okay!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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