![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 0:24:06
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
Tabitha, if it means anything, I'm not having any trouble following you at all.
I really really hesitate to mention this, but is it possible that the group experience and your therapist's reactions to your reactions is making you feel a bit gaslighted? I think feeling like something weird is going on is a pretty natural reaction to having your perceptions... not validated? Ugh. I'm trying to be sensitive and subtle, and it's not my forte.
I guess what I'm saying is that yes, sometimes our perceptions contain distortions. But sometimes they also contain more truth than others might see. It's pretty hard to balance trusting your instincts with being open to challenging your perceptions.
Perhaps that's what's making you feel off kilter?
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 1:02:50
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 0:24:06
Well what I think is.............................
too much E-mail, seriously it can drive you nuts.
When I wasn't working, and didn't know anyone cause I'd just moved.. and I didn't have a phone
I was in tears all the time, cause my feelings were always hurt. All I had was e-mail
It's amazing when I think about it now that I actually managed to make any e-mail
friends at all, never mind such close ones.And then, well there is therapy, most people are there cause they have *issues* right?
So of course they're going to have different and perhaps more(ahem) emphatic reactions to what you have to say. Or maybe not, I've never been to a therapy group or therapy, but I actually find groups of any sort kind of "testy"
And its that stressed out time of year..(Or do we always say that?)
There ya go.. thats what I have to say. Its a wicked feeling though. I've used this before, but
thats when I feel like Alice in Wonderland,
and that book scared me.
I just keep trying to talk, and I hear the Red Queen going
"OFF WITH HER HEAD!"
And I don't know what I did..
And then you try and turn around for some comfort
and the flowers say nasty things to you. Its awful. But it does end. Not quickly enough, but it does end.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 8:45:49
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
It does seem like communication is one of the main struggles on our planet.
my heart goes out to you. I know how hard it is.I get on this board and read...I post.
When I don't get a response I think well maybe:
my post was boring
or no one likes me
or my comment was just not important
or no ones listening or.....
you see where I am going? I get lost and end up feeling badly. I spin a tighter knot and I can't get out. And that's just on my side of the communication.
It's just amazing we get across anything to one another. I think it's a miracle we communicate at all.
So what am I saying?
You are a wonderful person and I like you very much and I want to send you my caring through these words.
I care and know that your heart is true and you are sincere.Please don't stop communicating.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2003, at 10:06:16
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Larry Hoover, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 23:50:09
> No, nobody else is saying that.
Now I'm really confused.
You said:
"It seems like all my interactions with people are creating miscommunication. A lot of it is text and email like here which I know is notorious for miscommunication, but it's happening in my face to face and phonecalls too. It seems like I can't say anything or hear anything without a misunderstanding happening."You recognize that miscommunication is occurring....people don't have to literally say that for it to be true, do they? And if it's happening in face to face communication.....then it is perfectly reasonable to raise the question of mixed messages, given the multi-mode communications taking place.
Some language styles clash.....apparently yours and mine do....but that is nobody's fault, and I would never attribute it to the other party (you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
I'm unable to consider "taking you at your word" if I'm unsure of what your words mean. The latter quite precludes the former.
I regret any exacerbation of the situation, but I don't like having words put into my mouth.
Lar
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2003, at 10:06:16
Dear Larry
<< Honestly I am a fool to step into the conflict …"but here I go"….(to quote Donkey in Shrek)
I re-read both your posts and got how you both were talking about different stuff.
I also see now how you both are hurt from this miscommunication.
>>If you won't believe a sincere statement, then there's nothing I can do to reach you. I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water.
>>I regret any exacerbation of the situation, but I don't like having words put into my mouth.
**********
.>>My mind is going nuts trying to figure it out-- am I suddenly not seeing things clearly? Is everyone hypersensitive this time of year? It feels like I'm in a strange dream where everything is just a bit skewed.
<<Where in here is she asking for an analysis of her communication? I think she may have wanted empathy for her feelings.
***********
>> I thought maybe it was me. But if others are reporting this, then I think that perhaps my "mixed message" theory may be valid.
<<It looks like you are saying: **It's you**
>>I think that perhaps my "mixed message" theory may be valid.
>>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
<<So where is this implied?
I hope you don't see me as being a big jerk for responding. I just thought it might help? Famous last words....
Posted by Karen_kay on December 19, 2003, at 12:51:22
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
This happens to me all of the time. Usually I misinterpret other people. I usually speak up. If it is face to face a good way to tell is through eye contact and body language. Email and telephone communication is a different story altogether. If you are unsure of the message being received, then again, ask. If you think there is a chance someone has misread the message you have sent then send a follow-up explaining. Trust me, I have a knack for shoving my foot all the way down my throat. And the people who know me don't mind. They may be hurt for a second, but they understand that I am just communicationally challenged. At least this is just a phase for you. It's the story of my life :)
And, I do think this time of year has a lot to do with it. People are stretched to their limits (financially and emotionally as well). If you go back to your posts and see that there could potentially be an error, post again and clear it up. We understand. No harm, no foul :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2003, at 14:14:36
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
Anyone who knows me would know that I do not back away from difficult questions, if they seem to be valid questions to ask.....
Of course, I must recognize that I project my perceptions outwards, in assessing that validity...
I regret if my being me has led to any unpleasant feelings in the yous out there....
Lar
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 15:03:14
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Jai Narayan, posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
oh I guess I'm gabbix3 now!'
don't know what happened there. I just realized that must have looked so terse. Sorry. I'm feeling pretty emotional today so I didn't want to say anything esle I have a feeling it would just all come out wrong..I can't believe I've finally learned that : (
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 19:22:12
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 0:24:06
> Tabitha, if it means anything, I'm not having any trouble following you at all.
Thank you for saying so.
Everything you said about the effect of the group is probably right-on. The net effect of trying to challenge my perceptions is to leave me a bit confused.. without the familiar pigeon-holes to put people into, it's harder to understand them. Of course maybe I misunderstood them before, but at least I had a framework. Now I'm second-guessing and third-guessing every interaction.
Plus I may be feeling a little braver about trying new things-- being a tad more assertive. I'm bound to get new reactions. Other people have their own stuff too, right? I had mostly retreated into light social mode with everyone outside therapy the last couple years-- so I might be engaging a bit more, running into other folks' stuff.
I also think my meds may need a little tweak. I think I'm distorting to the negative. I keep hoping I'll perk up.
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:38:51
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Speaker on December 18, 2003, at 23:53:44
I think my over-thinking brain is finally taking a rest. At least there are some islands in the traffic -- you know, nice little rest areas with shrubs and water fountains and informational maps-- although the six lanes of traffic are still whizzing past.
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:40:14
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Karen_kay on December 19, 2003, at 12:51:22
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:43:40
In reply to Are things getting better?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 8:45:49
> You are a wonderful person and I like you very much and I want to send you my caring through these words.
> I care and know that your heart is true and you are sincere.
>
> Please don't stop communicating.Aww, thank you so much. That feels good to hear. Yup, I definitely suffer from over-thinking things. Sometimes it just gets comical. If only I could harness that energy toward something useful-- just bring it down from my head into my feet somehow.
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2003, at 8:46:51
Hi Tabitha,
First let me wish you a merry Xmas, happy and healthy 2004 and all that.
Just reading this thread..bit late getting there from Oz (unless I'm awake in the middle of the night).I hope you work it out soon, but please don't stop communicating. I appreciate the help you have given me before, and I'm sure many others do too.
The internet and emails must be one of the most difficult communication mediums , especially if one is not gifted in written expression. Phone is much easier.
Face to face we rely so much more on other means of communications..not so much the actual words..and the same words can mean sooo many different things depending on the way they are said..the tone, facial/body expressions etc..which just cannot be put into words effectively.
Still the internet does allow some communication and this is way better than none...believe meI haven't been following what had been happening , but just from this thread ..it really did come across to me that you thought you thought you were having a problem communicating
"> > I'm in a weird state. It seems like all my interactions with people are creating miscommunication. A lot of it is text and email like here which I know is notorious for miscommunication, but it's happening in my face to face and phonecalls too. It seems like I can't say anything or hear anything without a misunderstanding happening. My mind is going nuts trying to figure it out-- am I suddenly not seeing things clearly? Is everyone hypersensitive this time of year? It feels like I'm in a strange dream where everything is just a bit skewed."
>
and then Lar said ..>
> Tab, I've been confused in conversations with you myself, and I worked hard to figure out why. The best I can figure is that I get mixed messages, like there are mutually incompatible clusters of thoughts coming from you. It could be that the inferences I draw from what you're saying are not agreeing with the literal text.
>
> I thought maybe it was me. But if others are reporting this, then I think that perhaps my "mixed message" theory may be valid.
>
> Lar
which again , to me, just meant:
well I thought it was just me..but if you, yourself, personally, are finding it with others, and thinking you are having a problem yourself, ..then perhaps the fault is not ALL me after allI don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
Of course, I really just came in on the end of this ... so this is just my interpretation based on what I see written here and how Lar comes across himself on the forum too.>
>"No, nobody else is saying that.
>If you're talking about what I think, what >happened there was you wouldn't take me at my >word. My message wasn't mixed-- it was rejected. >If you won't believe a sincere statement, then ?>there's nothing I can do to reach you.
>
>I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let >your analysis of my faulty thought process roll >off me like water.
>
>Go in peace, Larry. "
>
I sure hope this helps a bit and I hope you work it out and feel great again soon ...but make sure you keep communicating, OK?Jan
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 13:19:56
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
Posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
> I don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections. It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest. For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit. I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 22:50:51
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
> > I don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
>
> Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
>
> The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections. It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest. For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit. I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.Tabitha,
If you really find that protective suit helps, then by all means wear it. Whatever helps is useful!
I just didn't read the post that way at all..more that he was receiving the mixed messages...and was a bit relieved to find the communication problem was not all his, in that others may be having communication problems too...just going by what you posted. I thought he was trying to be helpful in telling you how he was perceiving your messages.I was just stating how these posts came across to me.
You have never come across as insincere to me, and I didn't read that in Lar's comments, sigh.
Having one's sincere statements critiqued as being secretly insincere could be hurtful especially if you have not worked it out between you, but honestly..NONE of that came across in this thread, at least to me...and it does seem out of character for Larry.
Don't think I've helped at all, so I think I should give up... but I hope it all works out soon. I didn't mean to hurt you any further.Merry Xmas (or whatever name you are happy with),
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 8:36:15
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
I'm going to open with quotes from two of tealady's posts, as they quite accurately reflect my own perceptions and intent:
to you:
"I haven't been following what had been happening , but just from this thread ..it really did come across to me that you thought you thought you were having a problem communicating."about me:
"which again , to me, just meant:
well I thought it was just me..but if you, yourself, personally, are finding it with others, and thinking you are having a problem yourself, ..then perhaps the fault is not ALL me after all"more about me:
"I just didn't read the post that way at all..more that he was receiving the mixed messages...and was a bit relieved to find the communication problem was not all his, in that others may be having communication problems too...just going by what you posted. I thought he was trying to be helpful in telling you how he was perceiving your messages."Exactly. I'm glad that my message was read that way by somebody, else I'd be thinking I may have another miscommunication problem to work out.
> Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
I'm sorry you felt my comments were hurtful. I have never said you were insincere, if that is what you implying about me.
I use a "playing catch" metaphor to represent interpersonal communications. One person "throws" an idea, and the other person tries to "catch" it. Miscommunication is when the ball is dropped, and it doesn't much matter whether it's because the throw was off the mark, or the catcher fumbled the ball. If you're the pitcher, you have no control over how the ball is caught. It's out of your control. The only thing you can change is how you throw the next ball.
When I offered up my theory of mixed messages, it may have seemed like I was "blaming" you, but it was an extension of the assumption you were seeking insight. You can't change me, for my part in miscommunication. My comments were about you because that is the only place YOU have power. Absolute power, in fact. I was not labelling you. I thought you were asking, in so many words, "Where might I look?".
> The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections.
What was I projecting? Help me with my insight, if you please.
> It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest.
Exactly the assumption I was assuming you would assume.
> For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit.
What did I say that was inherently negative? What did I reject as insincere? Or are you even talking about me?
> I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.
A valid concern, but I wasn't throwing fire. Teflon an unanticipated response.
I do not blame you for our miscommunication. I continue to work on my part in dropping the ball. My mentioning what may be your part (merely a suggestion) does not remove the responsibility I face in working on my part....it helps me focus more clearly.
Regards,
Lar
Posted by Karen_kay on December 21, 2003, at 10:50:59
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
(((tabitha))) I have to agree with Dinah. I haven't noticed any type of miscommunication on your behalf. Maybe it is those around you, who happen to be talking in circles. It can make your head spin, and leave you with the impression that you are miscommunicating. It will pass in time. Sending you warm, nice, and CLEAR thoughts (actions and words) for now!
Karen
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 10:59:45
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 8:36:15
>>When I offered up my theory of mixed messages, it may have seemed like I was "blaming" you, but it was an extension of the assumption you were seeking insight. You can't change me, for my part in miscommunication. My comments were about you because that is the only place YOU have power. Absolute power, in fact. I was not labelling you. I thought you were asking, in so many words, "Where might I look?".
<<Remember this quote? Lar you said this in Nov during communication with me about honesty: you said:
***" There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty,………I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."***
<<You are not being brutal but you are not following your own rules:
***Larry wrote:
"I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."IMHO you may have wanted to fix the problem ***"Where might I look?"***
(give her your analysis) and that's where you were coming from while it appears she wanted to be heard and get some empathy. It's a common problem with communication styles…I often ask for emotional support not a **fix it** response.
Lar, your pearls of wisdom are greatly appreciated if I ask for them. I have learned a lot from you and am open to your reflection but only when I ask for it. Then I'm ready to learn...
I hope this can be resolved.
peace & love to you both
Posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 11:00:09
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
This is my first post, but I've been reading for a long time. I just want to say that I think you communicate beautifully, Tabitha. I always read your posts, always appreciate your particular articulate and intelligent style.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 11:48:40
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 10:59:45
Posting to a public board got public responses. I told you what I meant. I told you my motive. There's no way I'm going to accept someone else failing to treat *me* with empathy and respect, and failing to acknowldege *my* sincerity, in the guise of reinterpreting my words to imply my own failure in those realms.
This may be a Venus/Mars issue, but that is NOBODY's fault. Being a Venusian doesn't make this a Martian problem.
Have a nice day.
Lar
Posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 12:48:48
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
May I also add that I find you insightful and perceptive, and admire your interpretative abilities.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.