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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Declan on February 6, 2007, at 20:11:38
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » one woman cine, posted by zenhussy on February 6, 2007, at 13:21:17
Lots of people I've known have killed themselves.
Perhaps I should be more careful in my choice of friends.
It has been very upsetting, though it is a reminder that people are fragile and it is important to look after ourselves and each other.
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 22:17:59
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide, posted by Declan on February 6, 2007, at 20:11:38
Thanks declan,
I feel you've been sending me some ~~~looking out for your friends~~~~ vibes lately:)
owc,
I got some suicides in my family history. It's something that is so impossible to understand. Can you talk to anyone about this? How has the trauma changed over time?I want to know how to support you-
-Ll
Posted by Daisym on February 7, 2007, at 1:14:11
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » Declan, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 22:17:59
My brother in law hung himself just before his 30th birthday. It was a horrible thing, and my husband's family has never recovered completely. It's been 20 years and there are still lingering questions and resentments among the siblings, cousins and parents. Different poeple knew different parts, so some members of the family were more shocked than others. I'd been married at that time about 3 1/2 years and found out soon after I was expecting our second son. We actually kept it a secret for a long time, no one wanted to celebrate a new life, we were all grieving the one lost.
After all this time, I understand much more (I think) about why my brother-in-law made the choice he did. I can't tell you how often someone said, "why didn't he call anyone? I would have been there for him, I would have done anything for him." But in those moments, when no one has been there for you and when you don't even know what you need, why would you think about reaching out, even if you had the capacity? I've seen the life long mark a suicide leaves on a family. I've felt the pain that is so deep you feel you must end it. To say it is a struggle, is like calling a lion a kitten.
I used to think that suicide was a message to someone, maybe everyone else. Now I believe that it is just a way to end your own unbearable suffering. And while you are so sorry to leave those who love you, you also know that they wouldn't want you to suffer either.
Complicated.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 3:00:25
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » Declan, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 22:17:59
There were 2 people 30 years ago.
One who did it always found it easy to leave.
It's certainly something I've thought about. I suppose everything just fades somewhat over time?
I have respect for those who vote with their feet....that's one thing I think.
And how painful it can be.
And the magic of personality...it only lasts for a little while, and it might not be much fun, but it's pretty impressive really.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 7:36:30
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide -- trigger, posted by Daisym on February 7, 2007, at 1:14:11
The pain of suicide is complicated - but pain people feel ends at some point - but the pain of suicide never does.
It is never a solution. Ever.
It just creates more pain in my opinion - I wouldn't want anyone to suffer though pain - but I since I've had this *experience* - I would never advocate or *understand* suicide as a way to end suffering.
For anyone. Ever.
My experience has taught me it's ultimately selfish - because someone's solution to their pain will create an *unspeakable* agony that is beyond all language that will scar many people.
It certainly has in my case.I also understand the feelings of suicidality - & I have worked to help (or just witness the pain) of whomever through it, as long as they wanted help. Some people win the battle, some sucumb.
Suicide is never OK. Maybe that's uncivil.
But it's never OK.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 7:42:34
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » Declan, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 22:17:59
Aw thanks -
& sorry for your own pain of suicide.
I think suicides can be secrets - in any discussion I've had, people have talked about not only the grief, but the shame and the guilt.
There is no way to really help someone through it. I think one can bear witness to the pain, but the journey towards healing from trauma is singular.
It helps to talk about this and take away the shame and the guilt - to focus on the trauma and the grief & yes, sometimes the rage.
I've talked about this so much - what I've realized is the intensity and volume is muted but the trauma of this will never, ever change. It will always be present.
But thank you so much for your post.
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 8:22:33
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 7:42:34
> Aw thanks -
>
> & sorry for your own pain of suicide.me too
>
> I think suicides can be secrets - in any discussion I've had, people have talked about not only the grief, but the shame and the guilt.In our culture, or at least in my family, there is a strong sense of shame surrounding suicide. I usually just say ___ died. Of what?, people ask. Schizophrenia. (silence...mumbling... so sorry).
But in my heart, I also view the choice to take one's own life the supreme human right.
There are many reasons for desiring to kill oneself. I'm going to speak from my own personal experience, since I've grappled with these feelings
1) To end my suffering and pain and uncertainty
2) To end my shameful existence, because I hate all that I stand for
3) To "show THEM"
3a - that I was serious
3b - that I seriously hurting
3c - that all was NOT well
3d - that I needed better care
3e,f,g (private)
4) To obtain better care
5) To surrender my life, because I no longer feel autonomous and capable of making the decisions necessary to live
6) To end the wait to de
7) To end the wait to feel betterand some other more conflicted, personal feelings.
Please note that this is MY list. I don't intend to manipulate others. I think I have felt very close on a couple of occasions, and I think that it's important to share these feelings. They come from a dark place, but they don't make a human being a bad person, IMO.
I am ever grateful to the folks who stuck a hand out and helped pull me out of that pit of despair.
I think the real tragedy of suicide is when someone cannot see the hands trying to help them, and when they cannot see out of the pit that there is another world out there.
But I understand that feeling that one has done EVERYTHING to make his/her life worth living, and that the pain is simply too much to bear. We don't chastise car accident victims for "giving in" to their injuries and not fighting hard enough to live. It's easy to understand a fatal injury when someone is in an accident, or dying of cancer. It's a lot harder to understand it when the mind and the brain are so severely injured that death is the only relief. I guess the only way to understand it is to be there, but who can REALLY get inside another's consciousness to experience how the sum of their life's dreams and hopes cannot mitigate the urgent need to end suffering? I guess it's in the latter cases that I try so hard to understand mental illness as fatal disease for many. Lives cut short by cancer of the mind. Maybe this helps me justify the suicides of ones close to me- those that have been so deep in the pit that the hands reaching towards them were just too far away, and the pit was getting deeper and darker everyday.
> There is no way to really help someone through it. I think one can bear witness to the pain, but the journey towards healing from trauma is singular.
>
> It helps to talk about this and take away the shame and the guilt - to focus on the trauma and the grief & yes, sometimes the rage.
>
> I've talked about this so much - what I've realized is the intensity and volume is muted but the trauma of this will never, ever change. It will always be present.
yes. But remember that presence can be used to good ends too. Another's suicide can coax a discussion and help the survivors piece together a narrative that helps explain and partially understand. Another's suicide can provide impetus for one sufferer to seek treatment. Another's suicide can strengthen bonds between the survivors, or allow maladaptive bonds to dissipate before destroying too many lives.> But thank you so much for your post.
and for yours.
Take care,
-Ll
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 8:46:26
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers*************** » one woman cine, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 8:22:33
Thanks again for the post -
holocuast survivors say "someone died", when in fact they were murdered - there seems to be power in being able to name the act for what it really is.
I understand suicidal feelings and why it seems to an option - but the conflict lies there too. Hmm. (& I understand your heartfelt reasons, I don't feel manipulated.)
Suicidal feelings don't make you a bad person, neither does committing the act of suicide.
Sometimes there is nothing to do about the pain of living - you just have to wait for it be over -because everything comes and goes, even intolerable feelings. That is the point.
I don't think someone is bad "for giving in" but I find the *act* emotionally complex and for myself - having been through it - unforgivable. For me. I cannot find that forgiveness in my heart. The suicide bore the fruit of violence, both spiritually and emotionally for me. I will never be the same.
& I think your right about the tragic aspect of not being able to see the hands reaching out - that is sad, it does happen.
& we can use even painful situations to some useful end - it is just very bad someone's death precipitated that.
I just don't want anyone reading this to think that for whatever reason suicide is OK - sometimes one feels it necessary, (doesn't make you bad) but it's not OK.
It is my supreme hope that we can all come out on the other side of whatever pain we may be feeling; alive, surviving - whatever - to be able to transform the pain into something useful at some point.
(((li)))
I know you have been through alot - you are brave despite all.
Posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 10:02:24
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide -- trigger, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 7:36:30
I think I understand you much better now, One Woman Cine. I KNEW there must be something behind your posts.
I am very sorry for your terrible loss. The pain that suicide has caused you is clear in your writing.
I can also see now how my own posts upset you. If only you had shared this experience then. When you posted the article about the university compelling suicidal students to get help, you must have felt hopeful that if only such a policy had existed for your loved one, maybe they would still be alive. My arguing against the use of coercion must have hurt you.
I can only say that was never my intent.
I believe I have made my own views against the use of force and the need for prevention of abuse clear on other threads and do not want to reiterate them here. I'll only say that the purpose behind my posts was not to harm but to help (as well as to not feel so terribly alone).
Awful things happened to me. I do not want them to happen to others. Suicide happened to you and your loved one. You do not want it to happen to others.
We are more similar, perhaps, than either of us knew.
> The pain of suicide is complicated - but pain people feel ends at some point - but the pain of suicide never does.I think this sentence says volumes: while the pain of suicidal people will end at some point, you believe, the pain that suicide survivors feel never does.
I think that pain is pain is pain. I don't think that it is possible to say that this person's pain is temporary while that person's pain is forever. Everyone must bear their own pain. Some people are not able to.
I think what another poster said about some mental illnesses possibly being terminal is true. Like the family of cancer victims, there are some survivors who mourn the suicidal person's loss but are glad that their suffering has ended.
I did not know your loved one and cannot know their reasons, but as a suicidal person myself, I can say that I do not believe it is a decision that is made lightly or to purposefully cause another pain.
Perhaps if you could find a way to frame your tragedy as your loved one not being as strong as you and being unable to bear their own ""unspeakable agony" any longer, you could find a way to forgiveness and peace.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 12:06:18
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers*************** » one woman cine, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 8:22:33
It's 40 years since we were friends in an awful boarding school, and a good 30 since he did it, so anger is out of the question. He came back to the city we'd been to school in, known without affection as 'the deep north' by people like us. He would have been gay (as we say nowdays....all my friends were, though to talk about it was inconceivable), he would have felt that was a category worthy of ethical comment, he would have taken drugs and had the usual problems growing up, he formed the unfortunate belief that psychiatry could help him, he chose the wrong psych, the ECT was terrible and to prevent any more he jumped in the path of a moving train. A lot of gay kids kill themselves, or did. I have to work at imagining people worrying about such things now, but I guess they do.
Posted by cubic_me on February 7, 2007, at 12:19:09
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers***************, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 12:06:18
After a close friend killed herself (2002) was the first time I sought therapy, though I still find it hard to talk about. I'd supported her after numerous suicide attempts and we'd been each other's only confidants, so when she went, there was no-one who I felt I could talk to. We'd always said that we wouldn't kill ourselves if we didn't do it together and I felt she'd broken that promise and left me feeling horrific.
She died violently and in an unusual way which was difficult to prove was suicide, and I was involved in helping the police, submitting a statement to the inquest etc, which made it harder for me and I already had pre-existing, untreated depression.
> He came back to the city we'd been to school in,
Declan, that strikes a chord with me. My friend also came back to the city we went to school in. Infact we'd both gone there for the weekend to meet up with each other, but the morning before we were due to meet that evening,, she did it.
Posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers***************, posted by cubic_me on February 7, 2007, at 12:19:09
I wanted to make a point about calling people who commit suicide selfish...
It is impossible to measure pain. But what if the pain a survivor feels is but a fraction of the pain the suicidal person does. Try to imagine the suicidal person is in ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times more pain.
Sit with that thought for a minute.
This agony goes on relentlessly and they believe it is endless. You may believe pain is temporary but they don’t. That is not their experience.
(Some believe that despair will end if you only wait and/or get treatment but that is not always the case. There is no way to know when or even if a person's pain will end. If you truly think that ALL pain is fleeting, then you must also think that your own pain as a survivor is only temporary).
Do you expect them to endure this pain X 1000 they believe, and experience, as lasting forever in order to spare you one tenth of the pain, pain you believe will end?
If your answer is yes, I ask you to look very hard at who you are calling selfish.
(Of course, the converse could be true. The survivor’s pain could be greater. There is no way to measure pain and because it is not possible to know whose pain is worse, you cannot even hope to imagine the depths of despair the suicidal person finds themselves unable to bear).
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 13:58:50
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
toojane -
Have you survived a suicide of a loved one - yes or no?
this is not the place to debate suicide or suicidal behavior or who's pain is greater - it's for support, as you have once said - if you wish to weigh in with your experience, please do so - I believe you have advocated for support/discussion on prior threads and I respected that.Please be respectful of the thread and those who have survived suicide -
if you wish to debate this, please start another thread.
Thanks.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:02:16
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
Please do not generalize,assume or hijack a thread that took me alot of courage to start.
If you want to talk about your experience please do so. There is not one mention of you and your experience, just generalities.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:57
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
You may remember a wonderful Chinese film called "Farewell My Concubine", I think. The main actor in that, a lovely looking man, called a friend he had an appointment with in downtown Hong Kong and said 'I'll be down in a moment', at which point he jumped off the building to their meeting point. His boyfriend said he had suffered from depression for 20 years.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:11:37
In reply to Re: Selfish, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:57
I wonder how his boyfriend felt.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:48
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
or refer to me or paraphrase me.
Thanks.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:23:33
In reply to Re: Selfish » Declan, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:11:37
I have no idea, but it seems not to have been a surprise and the treatment for the depression seems not to have been successful.
Lurps asked me how my feelings have changed over time. I hang on to these feelings (I think) because it is a way of rememberance. So, it more or less hasn't changed that much. But it has informed certain of my opinions, and I suppose there I do feel anger (bad psychiatry, stupid attitudes)...not at anyone specifically so much.
It has certainly affected the way I treat my own children.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:36:31
In reply to Forgetting » one woman cine, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:23:33
you feel this way in regards to your friends suicide - I mean, this affects you how, by retaining the anger - I though you said you weren't angry because it happened so long ago.
I may be confused, please forgive me.
I can only speak for myself - & I would rather keep this very personal thread on an personal level with personal experiences, rather than speak in generalities and assumptions and movies we might have seen.
I do not want something immediate, visceral, and unrelenting to be turned into a abstract debate.
I'm sorry you have had the same experience - anger is a feeling that accompanies me as well.
I'm curious though, why are you angry - and at whom?
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:45:53
In reply to I'm not sure I understand..., posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:36:31
I suppose any anger I have is that precious life is wasted by human silliness....like bad psychiatry (giving ECT to young people with normal problems) and unkind attitudes.
I remember those people fondly and am sorry it ended up like that.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:54:44
In reply to Re: I'm not sure I understand... » one woman cine, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:45:53
I am sorry for bad psychiatry and thinking/actions that have been medieval, including homophobia - suicide is a tragedy for everyone it touches - I can't emphasize that enough.
the whole thing is bad, bad, bad - loaded trauma.
My experience tells me so much gets written about people who suicide. Talking about surviving is taboo too.
For all the people I've talked to, it's shameful and secretive - it doesn't get as nearly as much "airplay" as the folks who suicide - but survivors deserve just as much attention and compassion for their pain that they are left with for the rest of their lives.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 15:19:36
In reply to compassion » Declan, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:54:44
Suicide involves some choice, and it is that perhaps we find so difficult and painful.
(I have to say that it is also that which earns my grudging respect.)
But it seems peculiarly difficult for us to process.
The suicide of a child must be absolutely frightful for the surviving parents.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 7:16:53
In reply to Re: compassion, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 15:19:36
or the suicide of a parent for a child.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 8:19:11
In reply to toojane - please do not post to me. » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:48
> or refer to me or paraphrase me.
>
> Thanks.& that includes any name changes.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 9:43:49
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
Re:selfishness
I understand that other people will have other views on this, and I totally respect their views, but this is how I think about things.
My close friend killed herself, and I have made a serious attempt at suicide - so I've seen it from both angles. To me, suicide is selfish, but what's wrong with being selfish? I know my friend tried as hard as she could to cope, and that she was never happy. Who am I to be angry at her for making the decision to die? It can't have been an easy one to make, and I respect her decision, even though it hurt me, her parents, her sister etc immesurably.
I suppose I've come to that viewpoint in trying to come to terms with the anger her death caused me initially. Ofcourse I don't want anyone to be in so much pain they kill themselves, but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.
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