![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 353 to 377 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 15:20:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 13:43:47
>
> >
> > I read this as IMI was potentiating the stimulant effect of something else not that IMI was causing the hypersensitivity of the autoreceptors.
> >
> I read it that perhaps anti depressants can damage dopamine/dopamine receptor balance and sensitivity - but perhaps I'm reading too much into it?!
>
> "The results indicate that chronic treatment with ADs potentiates the behavioural responses mediated by the stimulation of postsynaptic D2 receptors in the mesolimbic system and suggest that this behavioural supersensitivity is due to enhanced neurotransmission at the D1 receptor level"
>
> Ray
OK, I'll buy that. I wish that they had specified which type(s) of ADs rather than testing Immipramine and then stating that ADs in general (meaning all of them) can cause this problem. I'm wondering if this would pertain to the MAOIs.I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often? Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)? I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 25, 2004, at 22:42:34
>
> I'm not sure Ray.
> I spoke to Larrian on the net (she was a gyno-urologist) about this at the time and she said it was probably a combo of things..one linked to the fact that the bladder neck has numerous thyroid receptors ..which I guess maybe somehow reacted to the T3 in Armour. ..beats me.
> I think the T3 helps with contraction of the bladder neck..but why one can't voluntarily release when you first encounter the T3 in Armour beats me...
> (Larrian thought it may be related also to nerve damage from childbirth..years b4,combined with the T3 receptors in the bladder neck..she could be right, beyond me)Think I'm out of my depth here! This abstract says that hyperthyroid increases bladder emptying, hypo reduces....but not in your case! saw some references to antidepressants, inhibiting bladder emptying because of receptors for monoamine neurotransmitters in the bladder, and also the antagonism of acetylchloline.
Nitric oxide appears to be important...
'Physiologic role of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase in female lower urinary tract.'
with regard to t3 and cholinesterase, it seems that t3 upregulates both the production and degradation of acetylcholine. In your case perhaps the production side has failed, but degradation is still occuring, degrading acetylcholine faster than you can make it?
Have you ever tried the sugar mannose? it can help remove bacteria from the bladder and unriary tract, to help with bladder conditions.
>
> Back to the MAIN point..
> I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..B5 makes acetylCoA that transports the acetyl to the choline....manganese is needed too. Hope it helps!
> Now DO I want it? LOL..
> Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>Who knows!!! sounds like too little, but maybe not!
> My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine osmalality and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?yesterday posted some info about hyaluronan, a sugar that hold 1000 times it's own weight in water, to help hyrdrate cells - it's what holds the synovial fluid together in joints. Betaine and taurine are also 'osmolytes'.
Have heard that the immune system doesn't like squished cells, and destroys them, causing inflammation, free radicals and more squished cells! - hydrating them might get their shape back?
here's an abstract about how hyaluronan is involved in fluid regulation - not sure if it would be good or bad for you.. 50% of the body's hyaluronan is in the skin, and helps stop wrinkling of the skin. Other sugars are important in kidney and skin structure, also in the regulation of the immune system too - blood groups are only different because of the sugars attached
> Apparently to make ADH one needs Acetylcholine..so I was just trying to work it out, sigh.I did see an abstract that said acetylcholine metabolism can inhibit the actions of ADH - didn't see one that mentioned it's production.
Although not your condition, this abstract talks about the interactions of adh with thyroid etc...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11228040
Hope some of the info might help..Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 6:19:24
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
Jan have you heard of aquaporin? - the water channels in cell membranes.
Abstract about them ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8815812&dopt=Abstract
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 14:57:04
> I am blown away by how in touch you are with the effects of these supplements. How can you tell that your kidneys are warm?Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology - think hypnosis and meditation helped too. For practice, turmeric, ginger, lemon and a magnesium supplement are good if held near different areas of the body, to get used to 'tuning in'!!
>
> I had never even heard of NAG. Why is that "safe" when glutamine isn't even though they do the same job?
glutamine can convert to glutamate in one step, but NAG is a sugar(even though it's made from glutamine), that is involved in tissue rebuilding (especially gut wall).
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 15:20:32
> >
> I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often?1-2 capsules a day (300mg of n-acetyl tyrosine)
>Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)?NAG is really an amino sugar, or glycoaminoglycan (GAG). Sometimes take methionine with methylfactors, NAC (in thiodox), phenylalanine, and just bought some egg white protein to see how I do with that - I ought to eat more protein but struggle to eat animals!
>I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
Ray
Posted by Simus on October 27, 2004, at 15:46:17
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
> Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology
Ray, can you help me with this kinesiology concept? You are not the first person whose opinion I respect who trusts kinesiology. But my mind just can't grasp the science of it. If there was some sort of scientific explanation... I had a flaky woman (not flaky because of kinesiology - just flaky in general) once hold a bottle of some supplement up to me (through my coat and clothes if I remember correctly) and then made me hold my thumb and first finger together and she used the effort to pull them apart as the determining factor as to whether or not I needed the supplement. She wasn't very impressive, to say the least. But I have heard of so many trustworthy people relying on it to completely discredit it. Thanks in advance.
Simus
Posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 17:25:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
> >I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
>
> As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
>
> Ray
>My understanding is almost all of this pathways work BOTH ways, depending on the relative concentration gradients. I think there are a few that ONLY work in one way.., I think they say these are irreversible, but I'm not sure.
The enzymes act as catylsts to speed up the reactions ..mostly I think by lowering the thresholds for the reactions to occur, so that more converts along the pathways. I think they speed up reactions too though.
I'm not sure if the enzymes work in both directions or not?
So with say tyrosine, you add some in your body..this makes it way higher than the dopamine..so it converts..then if the dopamine is higher than the adrenaline..it will convert until the dopamine and adrenaline are in balance I guess. If you already have lots of adrenaline, it should stay as dopamine..but I suspect you always get a bit of conversion anyway.As I think you've worked out..its the adrenaline thats limits how much tyrosine one can take...or the thyroid hormones .
The tyrosine also goes into thyroid hormones along the pathway somewhere too. ..so if you are low of them it should shunt off that way too.
As I already take some thyroid hormones most of my tyrosine seems to go to the dopamine pathway..and then some to adrenaline..which limits me. Although some still converts to thyroid hormones...wch makes tyrosine a problem in those already on enough thyroid hormones, or who are hyperthyroid.
I doubt any adrenaline would convert back as adrenaline gets used up fairly quickly doesn't it? Not sure but I think it stimulates cortisol to lower it?
But if adrenaline is used up like that , it would make the amount of adrenaline relatively low which would make your body always favour converting some into adrenaline.
o I don't know what I'm talking about here, just how I THINK it may work.Now if you have low adrenals this may be fine, unless they need a rest I guess.
Anyway I think the answer to your question is yes they go both ways..but not usually.
I even suspect with me tyrosine may go to PEA as well<g>, but I haven't looked at that pathway lately.
The converions are sooo much mostly one way that everyone just assumes they only go one way.
I'm pretty sure I don't go the "right" way always too with these pathwaysIt has to do with whether you have enough of all the enzymes and cofactors as well as how much of the substrates(the relative concentration gradients) you have etc..which is why P5P is an important one with me.
Its also why you have to take supplements as a "group" and why usually just taking one thing doesn't work unless that was all you were short on.Jan
Posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
> Think I'm out of my depth here! This abstract says that hyperthyroid increases bladder emptying, hypo reduces....but not in your case! saw some references to antidepressants, inhibiting bladder emptying because of receptors for monoamine neurotransmitters in the bladder, and also the antagonism of acetylcholine.
Ray, thank you so much for looking at this and getting back to me. I feel "upset" about all of this at present.
It's just that when I described what happened to this bladder nurse, she said that's what happens to some people on cholinergic drugs. Before this, all I drew was a blank from the docs.
(The problem with this is caus I didn't get catherised my bladder got overstretched, but really get off topic <g>)
I looked up cholinergic drug reaction and bladder and got this yesterday
----------------------------------------
"acetylcholinesterase (AChE), an enzyme of fundamental interest for its biological activity and its special biophysical properties. It acts very rapidly to stop neurotransmission at cholinergic synapses like those found in the brain and at neuromuscular junctions--consistent with the need for speedy responses in the neuromuscular system.
Competitive inhibition: A competitive drug can compete with the substrate for the active site of the enzyme. If the drug bind to the enzyme site it prevents binding of the normal substrate. The drug will just occupy the active site and then leaves it unchanged. Another drug or a substrate will then take its place. The action of the enzyme is slowed down by the number of times it get occupied by a competitive substance.Drugs can exert their effects by an interaction with an enzyme and therefore altering a physiological response. The neurological disorder myathenia gravis, for example, is characterized by profound muscle weakness due to acetylcholine deficiency. The cholinergic drug neostigmine is used to interfere with inactivation of acteylcholine by acetylcholinestrease at the neuromuscular junction."
---------------------------------------So that means if I had a cholinergic drug type reaction to the T3 somehow the acetylcholine must have been increased maybe?
But then most hypothyoids on thyroid replacement or before any meds complain of "brain fog"...inability to think of the right word, almost non existent memory etc.. supposed to get better when you get your levels right and your brain starts getting repaired I guess
Mine was bad but went worse on Armour(T4/T3 pig's thyroid that has a higher T3:T4 ratio than human) only..adding in T4 seems to make it a bit better(hopefully).So his means the Armour must have reduced my acetylcholine, as that's what is needed for memory isn't it? I guess it's more complicated than just one neurotransmitter.
My reaction time is better on Armour than before although nowhere near normal..so that means acetylcholinesterase is increased I guess?
Muscular strength slowly improving too..although still not normal. In fact that "vitality and longevity test" picked that up too "active tissue mass is 68% of ideal"<g>..I'm surprised it picked up what it did. I agree with its readings too.
(I've been on Armour for 3 years now, and added T4 slowly for a year)I noted as I added the T4 my bladder control stuff lessened but my memory improved.
I know, I'm strange. I'm not a typical hypothyroid. I think if I'd known about tyrosine and some of these other helpful coenzymated B's and other products you mentioned etc I may not have needed thyroid hormones...but when started I didn't. Still hopeful one day I can work it out and get fixed up.
> Nitric oxide appears to be important...Well I seem to have strange reactions with NO/nitrates/nitrites too ..started last September after a dental anaesthetic. (I think it's all here back in October 2003)
I seem to be able to eat some bacon now. Our bacon is not as good as the dry cured stuff I got in Britain though.>
> 'Physiologic role of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase in female lower urinary tract.'
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15353953
>
> with regard to t3 and cholinesterase, it seems that t3 upregulates both the production and degradation of acetylcholine. In your case perhaps the production side has failed, but degradation is still occurring, degrading acetylcholine faster than you can make it?
>
> Have you ever tried the sugar mannose? it can help remove bacteria from the bladder and urinary tract, to help with bladder conditions.
>
I haven't tried mannose.
My bladder and my gut to my knowledge seem just fine..gee something is<g>.
The problem with my bladder is ..as I did what the docs, physios etc said to do and held on like + that time when I first started on Armour and wasn't advised to go to emergency(and didn't know)..well if your bladder stretched too much if loses its elasticity and you need catheters etc.
Apparently I'm luckier than most, but if I don't stop stretching it , I'll have to catherize all the time...yuk ..so I have to cut down on water intake> >
> > Back to the MAIN point..
> > I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
>
> B5 makes acetylCoA that transports the acetyl to the choline....manganese is needed too. Hope it helps!Well I stared soy lecithin yesterday.
I also found a bottle of coenzymate B complex sublinguals which I started a couple of days ago too. That should provide me with the P5P and also it has the coenzmated form of B2 and B3 in it..as well as a non methl form of B12..so far Ok. Soles of feet a bit of deep purple first night but not so much now.
http://www.iherb.com/coen.html
I'll go take some manganese thanks. have some I take very occasionally on a just in case basis. Never noticed any difference with it.
>
>
> > Now DO I want it? LOL..
> > Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>
>
> Who knows!!! sounds like too little, but maybe not!Thanks, I mean I :) That's what I think too...hope I can't hurt :)
>
>
> > My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine salacity and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
>
> yesterday posted some info about hyaluronan, a sugar that hold 1000 times it's own weight in water, to help hyrdrate cells - it's what holds the synovial fluid together in joints. Betaine and taurine are also 'osmolytes'.Well it look like when I put my order in o'seas I need some betaine, probably TMG from what you found?
and some NAC..although a compounding pharmacy gets that in from the US and will sell me some made up into capsules for a small fortune..so at least I can source it.
>
> Have heard that the immune system doesn't like squished cells, and destroys them, causing inflammation, free radicals and more squished cells! - hydrating them might get their shape back?
>
> here's an abstract about how hyaluronan is involved in fluid regulation - not sure if it would be good or bad for you.. 50% of the body's hyaluronan is in the skin, and helps stop wrinkling of the skin. Other sugars are important in kidney and skin structure, also in the regulation of the immune system too - blood groups are only different because of the sugars attached
>actually sound exactly what I need..something else get from O'seas somewhere? I remember reading this yesterday, but I've forgotten now. I was thinking it would be good. I'll look again. I can't get NAG in Oz either, what a surprise <g>.
The problem with all of this is ..one can get away usually with importing up to US$25 amounts only..then one gets hit with customs..like over double the price, long delays, maybe even lost or rejected etc...and postage from iherb is $40US <g> each order...so if nothing else that limits one. Most companies won't even sell to Oz due to customs. (whine<g>)
Only thing I can find with NAG in it..
http://www.thexton.com.au/product.php?product_id=1025
http://www.caramal.com/ltyg/readqa.asp?ReferralName=accaq&ReferralURL=I'm a bit confused as to the link between glutamine and glucosamine? I had a quick look and couldn't see it.
Although it sounds just what I need to..especially considering did try cutting back on drinking as advised by endo, and I just craved carbs..like chocy, lollies, a whole sponge cake..and I used to eat healthy too..
Carbs retain water I think? or is it they don't require as much water to metabolise?. Not sure but I do know the weight loss for the first couple of days on a low carb diet is mostly water loss.My mouth saliva tastes extremely salty,
my eyes sting like from salt..I was soo thirsty..and is still drank and voided way too much. Can't sleep at night from thirst,..I gave up after a few night and last night I drank water!!
Besides bladder stuff, apparently one's kidneys can't handle that volume of urine and will just pack it in as one gets older.
But yesterday I decided to drink more again..and
and today I'm just going to drink as much as I want!!!!! well maybe not THAT much, but I just can't do the staying thirsty thing any more..
I read yesterday that low adrenals can mask this problem..and I think my cortisol /adrenals are on the improve..not real low as before, just can't handle stress now.
My blood presure is increasing too ..probably adrenals kicking in (I hope)
http://patients.uptodate.com/topic.asp?file=fldlytes/6651&title=Adrenal+insufficiency
I've always been thirsty, but now its worse..very difficult to distract my mind from the thirst...Thanks Ray, your a great help
Actually I might go to a sauna and see if I can sweat some of this salt out and water too sometime
Jan
Posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:16:00
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
>
> > I am blown away by how in touch you are with the effects of these supplements. How can you tell that your kidneys are warm?
>
> Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology - think hypnosis and meditation helped too. For practice, turmeric, ginger, lemon and a magnesium supplement are good if held near different areas of the body, to get used to 'tuning in'!!I don't know much about kinesiology. I'll have to look into it.
> > I had never even heard of NAG. Why is that "safe" when glutamine isn't even though they do the same job?
>
> glutamine can convert to glutamate in one step, but NAG is a sugar(even though it's made from glutamine), that is involved in tissue rebuilding (especially gut wall).
So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
Posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:23:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
> > >
> > I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often?
>
> 1-2 capsules a day (300mg of n-acetyl tyrosine)
>
> >Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)?
>
> NAG is really an amino sugar, or glycoaminoglycan (GAG). Sometimes take methionine with methylfactors, NAC (in thiodox), phenylalanine, and just bought some egg white protein to see how I do with that - I ought to eat more protein but struggle to eat animals!> >I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
>
> As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
>
> Ray
Thanks. I know what you mean about getting adequate protein. I find it harder and harder to consume animal protein.K
Posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan - meant to be decorating today and avoiding the computer...but couldn't resist looking up this link...
Austistic children have problems maintaining their sulphate levels, and so have problems detoxifying. They also have problems digesting because the hormone CCK needs sulphate to activate it. CCK is needed for the release of vasopressin and oxytocin.
Dose response of arginine vasopressin to the CCK-B agonist pentagastrin.
Abelson JL, Le Melledo J, Bichet DG.
University of Michigan Department of Psychiatry, Anxiety Disorders Program, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.
Cholecystokinin (CCK) is a peptide neurotransmitter that modulates hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis activity and may be involved in fear or anxiety states. Arginine vasopressin (AVP) also modulates HPA axis activity and may play a role in fear conditioning. Few human studies have examined interactions between CCK and AVP systems. To explore relationships between CCK-B receptor activation, the HPA axis response, and AVP release, a dose-response study using the CCK-B receptor agonist pentagastrin was conducted. Adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) and cortisol results have been previously reported and AVP data is presented here. Thirty-five healthy subjects were randomly assigned to receive placebo, or 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, or 0.8 microg/kg doses of pentagastrin. AVP release appeared to increase with increasing doses of the CCK-B agonist. However, this may have been due to a greater percentage of subjects releasing AVP in the higher dose groups, rather than a direct effect of dose on magnitude of response. AVP and ACTH responses were correlated, but AVP response alone could not account for the magnitude of the ACTH response. AVP release was significantly correlated with anxiety symptom responses. These findings suggest a possible role for the CCK-B receptor in AVP release, which may be at least partially separate from its role in modulation of the HPA axis. Further work is needed to determine whether these are physiologically meaningful interactions and to determine their functional implications
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 4:05:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 27, 2004, at 15:46:17
> Ray, can you help me with this kinesiology concept? You are not the first person whose opinion I respect who trusts kinesiology. But my mind just can't grasp the science of it. If there was some sort of scientific explanation... I had a flaky woman (not flaky because of kinesiology - just flaky in general) once hold a bottle of some supplement up to me (through my coat and clothes if I remember correctly) and then made me hold my thumb and first finger together and she used the effort to pull them apart as the determining factor as to whether or not I needed the supplement. She wasn't very impressive, to say the least. But I have heard of so many trustworthy people relying on it to completely discredit it. Thanks in advance.
> Simus
>Thanks Simus! I saw around 5 or 6 kinesiologists before I found one I was happy with. Kinesiology isn't a therapy itself, more a feedback tool to let the body give answers to questions asked of it (does sound flaky, sorry!). The reliabilty of it is only as good as the person asking the qestions - and is also reliant on the clarity of the patient's body about their condition. Some kinesiologists do use that finger test, but I would trust one finger test to give a supplement - it's too open to bias from the practitioner - it's very easy to will something to work.
The kinesiology I use requires arm, leg, skin pinch, tongue, neck, arm & leg length tests, eyes open and closed, before a supplement is given - the body is also given the chance to say 'i don't know' to any of these tests, as well as yes or no.
I really feel you need around an hour and a half for each session - personally, I've found it takes a lot of sessions to start to see a pattern developing.
Hope that wasn't too confusing!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 4:52:43
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
Hi Ray,
Hope your decorating went well. and thanks for all your help, you've somehow come across the two things my body doesn't seem to handle normally probably, NO/nitrates/nitrites and sulphates/sulphites which is interesting, and I've come across CCK before too, although I've never looked at it ..and I'll need more time and probably a better brain to work it out. I'd read about aquaporins just b4 you mentioned them in that book I told you about "Review of Medical Physiology" by Ganong. There are 5 types apparently, one in the brain too..
I've been on uni study break for exams, so I figure I'd better start studying now as exams are next week..twas no use in the past week or so anyway as my memory wouldn't work for that long!(true<g>). I have good results so far..but I can't remember a thing..oh except osmosis and kidneys<g>
So I'm drinking again....do they have a waterholics anonymous(an AA equivalent)? I can't stop drinking..but I need to drink so I can concentrate and sleep.<g> I do understand that the lower blood pressure /higher plasma osmalility can stimulate ADH..but there has to be a limit to how high one can make one's plasma osmalality.
I'll go over your posts in more detail and attempt some replies after the exams.Thanks for helping, really appreciated,you throw up some interesting ideas,
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:12:25
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan, good luck with your studying - just came across this abstract that seemed to tie in a lot of the things you are talking about. Superoxide excess seems to be a common thread in inhibiting the vasodilation and sodium balance in the kidney. Nitric oxide turns from a vasodilator to a vasoconstrictor when it combines with superoxide to form peroxynitrite - you didn't say what you had at the dentist, but if it was nitrous oxide, it might have been able to form peroxynitrite too - nitrites in bacon can definitely produce peroxynitrite.
Just found out that sulfites can trigger NADPH oxidase, and produce superoxide - seems to fit the pattern quite well! NADPH is needed for glutathione formation (nitric oxide, dopa, serotonin, steroid hormone synthesis, noradrenaline and folate activation!), so to lose too much is disasterous.
If you think this relates to you, arginine might be beneficial, but healing the endothelium cells to allow proper vasodilation to occur (not forgetting dealing with superoxide). I've used Venocap by Thorne research to help my endothelial cells - it contains, witch hazel, horse chestnut, butchers broom, gotu cola, grape seed extract. Lar gave me a link to an article by Dr Pall on peroxynitrite on a recent thread.
Nitric oxide, oxidative stress, and progression of chronic renal failure.
Modlinger PS, Wilcox CS, Aslam S.
Division of Nephrology and Hypertension, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC 20007, USA.
Cellular injury or organ dysfunction from oxidative stress occurs when reactive oxygen species (ROS) accumulate in excess of the host defense mechanisms. The deleterious effect of ROS occurs from 2 principal actions. First, ROS can inactivate mitochondrial enzymes, damage DNA, or lead to apoptosis or cellular hypertrophy. Second, nitric oxide (NO), which is a principal endothelial-derived relaxing factor, reacts with superoxide anion (O2-) to yield peroxynitrite (ONOO-), which is a powerful oxidant and nitrosating agent. The inactivation of NO by O2- creates NO deficiency. Oxidative stress can promote the production of vasoconstrictor molecules and primary salt retention by the kidney. Several hypertensive animal models showed increased activity of nicotine adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADPH) oxidase, which is the chief source of O2- in the vessel wall and kidneys. NO regulates renal blood flow, tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF), and pressure natriuresis. Animal models of NO deficiency develop hypertension, proteinuria, and glomerulosclerosis. Evidence is presented that chronic renal failure (CRF) is a state of NO deficiency secondary to decreased kidney NO production and/or increased bioinactivation of NO by O2-. Patients with CRF show decreased endothelium-dependent vasodilatation to acetylcholine, have increased markers of oxidative stress, and diminished antioxidant activity. Therapy for oxidative stress has focused on antioxidants and agents that modify the renin-angiotensin system. The effects of such treatments are more compelling in animal models than in human studies.
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
In reply to Do conversions along pathways go both ways?, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 17:25:16
Hi again Jan! thanks for that info - do you think the catecholamines are included in that two way thing too? Phenylalanine to tyrosine - as phenylalanine is an essential amino acid and we must get it from the diet I'm not so sure. DOPA decarboxylase to dopamine, would need a carboxylase enzyme to work the other way. Do you think there is some reverse flow traffic? I know we tend to see things in black and white, but sometimes things aren't so clear cut!!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:29:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:16:00
> So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
any carboydrate, fat or protein can in theory metabolise to glutamate as glutamate is a by product of the energy cycle - glutamine is one step, other chemicals are several more steps - sorry not to give a straight answer!
Ray
Posted by Simus on October 29, 2004, at 16:08:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 4:05:09
> The kinesiology I use requires arm, leg, skin pinch, tongue, neck, arm & leg length tests, eyes open and closed, before a supplement is given - the body is also given the chance to say 'i don't know' to any of these tests, as well as yes or no.
Thanks, Ray. By the way, you say "a supplement is given". How is it given? I assume that you don't ingest it, or you could only do one test a day. So do you put it under your tongue, hold it against your skin...?
Simus
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 20:33:47
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
> Hi again Jan! thanks for that info - do you think the catecholamines are included in that two way thing too? Phenylalanine to tyrosine - as phenylalanine is an essential amino acid and we must get it from the diet I'm not so sure. DOPA decarboxylase to dopamine, would need a carboxylase enzyme to work the other way. Do you think there is some reverse flow traffic? I know we tend to see things in black and white, but sometimes things aren't so clear cut!!
>
> Rayhttp://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/hsa/hsa00400.html
If you click on the ovals you get pathways say for tyrosine metabolism.I guess you can see where some paths are bidirectional.
(doesn't look more difficult than something out of a car manual)Maybe some only go one way..as far as the enzymes go, but then if you alter he concentration gradients it should encourage alternative pathways of metabolism. Maybe that is the effect I see, taking one thing would maybe in theory at least encourage buildup in previous substrates?(not sure of right word)..but that would give an appearance of backwards flow.
Doesn't appear to have inhibitors on these pathways though which are just as important.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 20:50:57
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
>I'm a bit confused as to the link between glutamine and glucosamine? I had a quick look and couldn't see it.
OK I found it I think..top line of this
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00251.htmlso that kinda has something to do with G6PD(or something close) I think?
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 21:19:47
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
OK I looked up what is needed maybe in the pathways
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html
"AND CLICKING on 1.14.15.6
Oxidoreductases
Acting on paired donors with incorporation of molecular oxygen
With a reduced iron-sulfur protein as one donor, and incorporation
of one atom of oxygen"so as well oxygen maybe I need iron-sulfur...there's that sulfur again!!!! (and iron)
OK so for sulfur I need TMG, NAC, NAG ??
I guess something like magnesium sulfate is different?? I have epsom salt baths but they always make me very tired after..actually usually drift in and out of sleep in the bath. Note sure if that's the sulfates or just the relaxation.
Lar mentioned sulfur stuff to me last year too re thyroid hormones.Another cholesterol path
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00120.html
needs that NADPH again and oxygen
"With NADH or NADPH as one donor, and incorporation of one atom of
oxygen"
I thought that CoQ10 (ubiquinone) should be somewhere around cholesterol too? as the drugs that inhibit cholesterol synthesis also stop CoQ10 synthesis? But I can't find the link there.Jan
Posted by karaS on October 29, 2004, at 22:32:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:29:06
> > So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
>
> any carboydrate, fat or protein can in theory metabolise to glutamate as glutamate is a by product of the energy cycle - glutamine is one step, other chemicals are several more steps - sorry not to give a straight answer!
>
> Ray
Ok, but don't do it again!K :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 8:40:40
In reply to Cholesterol metabolism ? Lar » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 21:19:47
> OK I looked up what is needed maybe in the pathways
> http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html
> "AND CLICKING on 1.14.15.6
> Oxidoreductases
> Acting on paired donors with incorporation of molecular oxygen
> With a reduced iron-sulfur protein as one donor, and incorporation
> of one atom of oxygen"
>
> so as well oxygen maybe I need iron-sulfur...there's that sulfur again!!!! (and iron)Oxygen is the second most reactive element of them all....more so than is chlorine (from electronegativity standpoint). Fire is an uncontrolled oxygenation chain reaction. Currently, the atmosphere contains about 17% oxygen. If it got up to 22%, it would be impossible to put out fires with water (itself burned hydrogen), as the exothermic reactions would not be cooled enough by the heat absorption capacity of water (specific heat), and the latent heat of vapourization.
The point is, our bodies work only because Mother Nature has learned how to slow fire down, to control it somewhat. Sulphur loves oxygen. Oxidative stress depletes sulphur compounds in the body.
> OK so for sulfur I need TMG, NAC, NAG ??
TMG remethylates one particular sulphur compound, homocysteine, but it is not a source of sulphur.
Common sulphur sources are methionine, SAMe, cysteine, taurine, creatine (a tripeptide with methionine). NAC is N-acetyl-cysteine, so it is a source. MSM too.
> I guess something like magnesium sulfate is different?? I have epsom salt baths but they always make me very tired after..actually usually drift in and out of sleep in the bath. Note sure if that's the sulfates or just the relaxation.
More likely the magnesium. It is taken in transcutaneously, though only slightly. Sulphates are not a good metabolic source of sulphur, as they're already fully oxidized (SO4--).
>
> Lar mentioned sulfur stuff to me last year too re thyroid hormones.
>
> Another cholesterol path
> http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00120.html
> needs that NADPH again and oxygen
> "With NADH or NADPH as one donor, and incorporation of one atom of
> oxygen"
>
>
> I thought that CoQ10 (ubiquinone) should be somewhere around cholesterol too? as the drugs that inhibit cholesterol synthesis also stop CoQ10 synthesis? But I can't find the link there.
>
> JanThe statin drugs do block CoQ10. That may be the mechanism of some of the side effects. You're likely going to see recommendations to supplement CoQ10 with statin drugs.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:21:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
> Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
I was a little slow getting back to this, but here I am.
> >Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
>
> Yes that sounds a good idea, although I seem to be doing amazingly well just upregulating the enzymes. Have you heard about the kynurenine pathway that breaks down tryptophan to niacin?I really doubt that significant amounts of tryptophan are shunted via this pathway. There are substantial opportunities for negative feedback (inhibition).
> Tryptophan metabolites at the start of the pathway seem to be neuroprotective, but as the pathway nears niacin, metabolites like quinolinic acid are highly neurotoxic - seems like niacin/naicinamide can provide negative feedback to this pathway.
Without doubt, they do.
> >Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
>
> I seem to do better on niacinamide rather than NADH - if fact I feel very little with NADH, which is surprising considering how important it is to the pathways we've been discussing. I'm guessing that maybe I need the large dose of niacinamide to inhibit the parp molecule I mentioned before. Parp seems to be involved in the pathogenesis of many diseases - for example this abstract finds that inhibiting parp can stop homocysteine induced blood vessel damage.Thanks for bringing PARP back to my attention. I need reminders of why I use my supps.....absent-minded professor type. I often don't remember what I need to remember for self-care, until someone triggers me to think about it again.
This abstract is quite on point:
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:25:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
> Hi Kara,
>
> Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
>
> I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?Do you remember where you got it? And the biopterin?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:31:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
> Tyrosine is also the precursor to T4 and T3, T4 has four iodines added, and T3 has four added and one taken away. So I wonder if the tyrosine gives your thyroid a boost...heres a bit about thyroid and pain threshold..
>
> "A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold. The susceptible patient perceives as painful stimuli that aren't painful to other people.That's called allodynia.
> The pain results from too little thyroid hormone regulation of certain nerve cells. Some of the cells, mainly in her spinal cord, when under-regulated by thyroid hormone, release excess amounts of "substance P." The excess substance P then amplifies the transmission of "pain" impulses in the central nervous system."
I've only ever seen models based on NMDA amplification. I have hyperalgesia and allodynia, but not disturbed thyroid function (at least, not diagnosed). Hyperalgesia and allodynia are often linked with chronic fatigue syndrome and PTSD. This is thought-provoking.
Lar
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.