Posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
> Think I'm out of my depth here! This abstract says that hyperthyroid increases bladder emptying, hypo reduces....but not in your case! saw some references to antidepressants, inhibiting bladder emptying because of receptors for monoamine neurotransmitters in the bladder, and also the antagonism of acetylcholine.
Ray, thank you so much for looking at this and getting back to me. I feel "upset" about all of this at present.
It's just that when I described what happened to this bladder nurse, she said that's what happens to some people on cholinergic drugs. Before this, all I drew was a blank from the docs.
(The problem with this is caus I didn't get catherised my bladder got overstretched, but really get off topic <g>)
I looked up cholinergic drug reaction and bladder and got this yesterday
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"acetylcholinesterase (AChE), an enzyme of fundamental interest for its biological activity and its special biophysical properties. It acts very rapidly to stop neurotransmission at cholinergic synapses like those found in the brain and at neuromuscular junctions--consistent with the need for speedy responses in the neuromuscular system.
Competitive inhibition: A competitive drug can compete with the substrate for the active site of the enzyme. If the drug bind to the enzyme site it prevents binding of the normal substrate. The drug will just occupy the active site and then leaves it unchanged. Another drug or a substrate will then take its place. The action of the enzyme is slowed down by the number of times it get occupied by a competitive substance.Drugs can exert their effects by an interaction with an enzyme and therefore altering a physiological response. The neurological disorder myathenia gravis, for example, is characterized by profound muscle weakness due to acetylcholine deficiency. The cholinergic drug neostigmine is used to interfere with inactivation of acteylcholine by acetylcholinestrease at the neuromuscular junction."
---------------------------------------So that means if I had a cholinergic drug type reaction to the T3 somehow the acetylcholine must have been increased maybe?
But then most hypothyoids on thyroid replacement or before any meds complain of "brain fog"...inability to think of the right word, almost non existent memory etc.. supposed to get better when you get your levels right and your brain starts getting repaired I guess
Mine was bad but went worse on Armour(T4/T3 pig's thyroid that has a higher T3:T4 ratio than human) only..adding in T4 seems to make it a bit better(hopefully).So his means the Armour must have reduced my acetylcholine, as that's what is needed for memory isn't it? I guess it's more complicated than just one neurotransmitter.
My reaction time is better on Armour than before although nowhere near normal..so that means acetylcholinesterase is increased I guess?
Muscular strength slowly improving too..although still not normal. In fact that "vitality and longevity test" picked that up too "active tissue mass is 68% of ideal"<g>..I'm surprised it picked up what it did. I agree with its readings too.
(I've been on Armour for 3 years now, and added T4 slowly for a year)I noted as I added the T4 my bladder control stuff lessened but my memory improved.
I know, I'm strange. I'm not a typical hypothyroid. I think if I'd known about tyrosine and some of these other helpful coenzymated B's and other products you mentioned etc I may not have needed thyroid hormones...but when started I didn't. Still hopeful one day I can work it out and get fixed up.
> Nitric oxide appears to be important...Well I seem to have strange reactions with NO/nitrates/nitrites too ..started last September after a dental anaesthetic. (I think it's all here back in October 2003)
I seem to be able to eat some bacon now. Our bacon is not as good as the dry cured stuff I got in Britain though.>
> 'Physiologic role of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase in female lower urinary tract.'
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15353953
>
> with regard to t3 and cholinesterase, it seems that t3 upregulates both the production and degradation of acetylcholine. In your case perhaps the production side has failed, but degradation is still occurring, degrading acetylcholine faster than you can make it?
>
> Have you ever tried the sugar mannose? it can help remove bacteria from the bladder and urinary tract, to help with bladder conditions.
>
I haven't tried mannose.
My bladder and my gut to my knowledge seem just fine..gee something is<g>.
The problem with my bladder is ..as I did what the docs, physios etc said to do and held on like + that time when I first started on Armour and wasn't advised to go to emergency(and didn't know)..well if your bladder stretched too much if loses its elasticity and you need catheters etc.
Apparently I'm luckier than most, but if I don't stop stretching it , I'll have to catherize all the time...yuk ..so I have to cut down on water intake> >
> > Back to the MAIN point..
> > I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
>
> B5 makes acetylCoA that transports the acetyl to the choline....manganese is needed too. Hope it helps!Well I stared soy lecithin yesterday.
I also found a bottle of coenzymate B complex sublinguals which I started a couple of days ago too. That should provide me with the P5P and also it has the coenzmated form of B2 and B3 in it..as well as a non methl form of B12..so far Ok. Soles of feet a bit of deep purple first night but not so much now.
http://www.iherb.com/coen.html
I'll go take some manganese thanks. have some I take very occasionally on a just in case basis. Never noticed any difference with it.
>
>
> > Now DO I want it? LOL..
> > Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>
>
> Who knows!!! sounds like too little, but maybe not!Thanks, I mean I :) That's what I think too...hope I can't hurt :)
>
>
> > My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine salacity and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
>
> yesterday posted some info about hyaluronan, a sugar that hold 1000 times it's own weight in water, to help hyrdrate cells - it's what holds the synovial fluid together in joints. Betaine and taurine are also 'osmolytes'.Well it look like when I put my order in o'seas I need some betaine, probably TMG from what you found?
and some NAC..although a compounding pharmacy gets that in from the US and will sell me some made up into capsules for a small fortune..so at least I can source it.
>
> Have heard that the immune system doesn't like squished cells, and destroys them, causing inflammation, free radicals and more squished cells! - hydrating them might get their shape back?
>
> here's an abstract about how hyaluronan is involved in fluid regulation - not sure if it would be good or bad for you.. 50% of the body's hyaluronan is in the skin, and helps stop wrinkling of the skin. Other sugars are important in kidney and skin structure, also in the regulation of the immune system too - blood groups are only different because of the sugars attached
>actually sound exactly what I need..something else get from O'seas somewhere? I remember reading this yesterday, but I've forgotten now. I was thinking it would be good. I'll look again. I can't get NAG in Oz either, what a surprise <g>.
The problem with all of this is ..one can get away usually with importing up to US$25 amounts only..then one gets hit with customs..like over double the price, long delays, maybe even lost or rejected etc...and postage from iherb is $40US <g> each order...so if nothing else that limits one. Most companies won't even sell to Oz due to customs. (whine<g>)
Only thing I can find with NAG in it..
http://www.thexton.com.au/product.php?product_id=1025
http://www.caramal.com/ltyg/readqa.asp?ReferralName=accaq&ReferralURL=I'm a bit confused as to the link between glutamine and glucosamine? I had a quick look and couldn't see it.
Although it sounds just what I need to..especially considering did try cutting back on drinking as advised by endo, and I just craved carbs..like chocy, lollies, a whole sponge cake..and I used to eat healthy too..
Carbs retain water I think? or is it they don't require as much water to metabolise?. Not sure but I do know the weight loss for the first couple of days on a low carb diet is mostly water loss.My mouth saliva tastes extremely salty,
my eyes sting like from salt..I was soo thirsty..and is still drank and voided way too much. Can't sleep at night from thirst,..I gave up after a few night and last night I drank water!!
Besides bladder stuff, apparently one's kidneys can't handle that volume of urine and will just pack it in as one gets older.
But yesterday I decided to drink more again..and
and today I'm just going to drink as much as I want!!!!! well maybe not THAT much, but I just can't do the staying thirsty thing any more..
I read yesterday that low adrenals can mask this problem..and I think my cortisol /adrenals are on the improve..not real low as before, just can't handle stress now.
My blood presure is increasing too ..probably adrenals kicking in (I hope)
http://patients.uptodate.com/topic.asp?file=fldlytes/6651&title=Adrenal+insufficiency
I've always been thirsty, but now its worse..very difficult to distract my mind from the thirst...Thanks Ray, your a great help
Actually I might go to a sauna and see if I can sweat some of this salt out and water too sometime
Jan
poster:tealady
thread:359642
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041022/msgs/408189.html