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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 275 to 299 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:16:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:06:20
> Hi Kara, do you know what dopamine receptor is hypersensitive with you? Seen that there are D1, D2, D3, D4, and D5 receptors - the hypersensitivity of D2 seems to be linked with schizophrenia and anxiety - things like coffee tea, chocolate, vitamin A, biopterin, l-dopa, forskolin and biopterin are linked to receptor sensitivity in different dopamine receptors.
>
> Here's one abstract as an example..
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8263772
>
> Ray
Unfortunately I don't know which one or ones are involved yet. I have to do more research (if it's even possible for me to figure that out). I certainly hope it's not the Parkinson's (D1?)related receptors. I also recently read (if I'm understanding this correctly) that the problem might instead be with the 1-b adrenergic receptors. They seem to serve as a "trans-synaptic mechanism" which can render the dopamine itself as nonfunctional and would therefore have the same effect as hypersensitive autoreceptors.At any rate, the last sentence of the abstract (copied below) that you provided was very encouraging. It suggests that it is indeed possible to treat this kind of hypersensitivity (at least with respect to the D1 receptor). I'm hopeful that has implications for the other D receptors as well.
"Our data suggests that chronic L-dopa/carbidopa treatment reverses the increased dopaminergic activity and D1 receptor functional supersensitivity seen after 6-hydroxydopamine lesions, and indicates a D1 receptor-mediated action of L-dopa"
Thanks Ray
Posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:24:08
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:11:03
> and this is interesting too..
>
> http://www.sliderule.ca/research.htm
So the problem might also be these G-proteins and not necessarily too many presynaptic autoreceptors? It appears that I have lots to investigate!Thanks again.
Kara
Posted by JLx on October 17, 2004, at 18:10:54
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 7:41:55
> I sometimes wonder if balancing the immune system, increasing energy and, blood flow and oxygen, would bring a lot of the body's neurotansmitters into balance? Just seems to be so much juggling and interaction - surely god can't be so mean!!Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.
The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.
http://millennium-debate.org/indsun27june042.htm
"Change in UK diets 'Could Trigger Mental Health Crisis'
Changes in British diets are going to lead to an explosion in mental health problems, medical experts said yesterday. They warned of a crisis even bigger than the epidemic of obesity afflicting the UK.
They said that most of the increase could probably be blamed on changes in farming and food over the past 20 years, which have led to deficiencies in essential omega-3 fatty acids. ...
pregnant women with lower intakes of omega-3 are more likely to have children who will go on to have behavioural problems, attention disorders and other problems.
The mothers themselves were more likely to suffer from depression if they had lower-than-average intakes of the fatty acid.
Professor Crawford warned: "We are facing a monumental crisis here, and a lot of it is due to the very simple issue of diet."
This follows a study highlighted earlier this year by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, which revealed a world-wide link between a lack of omega-3 in the diet and schizophrenia. This research showed that people who ate high levels of sugar and dairy products, instead of oily fish, were more likely to develop severe mental illness. ...
omega-3 is linked to brain development and mental health and is found in "green" foods such as cabbage due to the photosynthesis process.
Professor Crawford said that at the beginning of the century, people's omega-3 intake was higher because of traditional farming practices where cows and lambs were fed on grass.
However, intensive agriculture practices over the past 50 years have meant that livestock is now fed on grain and vitamins rather than omega-3-rich foods.
Mental health problems are already predicted to become the third most costly burden of disease in the world by 2020."
Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/398366.html
JL
Posted by raybakes on October 18, 2004, at 15:07:43
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » raybakes, posted by JLx on October 17, 2004, at 18:10:54
>
> Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.Yes, not forgetting the hormones too! Although, pituitary regulation does rely on neurotransmitters, and I read a recent article that found that every single step of hormone production is influenced by the immune system.
I totally agree about omega 3 fatty acids (thanks for the article) and often wonder what the effects will be now and in future generations.
>
> The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.Even though we have national health insurance, most doctors get most of their information through the drug companies - the government are also heavily influenced by the drug companies too, as is european government!
>> Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: > JL
The guy was skip atwater - I've used hemi sync before and found it can reduce the fogginess, and improve alertness, even the ones that are supposed to relax. I've also done a signature sound training course, and like using a large bass speaker to vibrate my whole body with sound!! I did find a frequency once that made a bit difference to my brain (i lost what frequency it was though, doh!) and interestingly,i felt great for two weeks until i had some potato crisps cooked in sunflower oil!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 19, 2004, at 9:51:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:24:08
Hi Kara, found these abstracts today...
Grima, G., B. Benz, et al. (2003). "Dopamine-induced oxidative stress in neurons with glutathione deficit: implication for schizophrenia." Schizophr Res 62(3): 213-24.
Glutathione (GSH) is the main non-protein antioxidant and plays a critical role in protecting cells from damage by reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated by dopamine (DA) metabolism. We reported a decrease of GSH levels ([GSH]) in CSF and in prefrontal cortex in vivo in schizophrenics [Eur. J. Neurosci. 12 (2000) 3721]. A GSH deficit may lead to membrane peroxidation and microlesions around dopaminergic terminals, resulting in loss of connectivity. To test this hypothesis, we studied the effect of DA in cultured cortical neurons with low [GSH]. DA alone decreased [GSH] by 40%. This effect appears to result from direct conjugation of DA semiquinone/quinone with GSH. Ethacrynic acid (EA) decreased [GSH] in a concentration-dependent manner. When added to EA, DA further lowers [GSH]. As this additional decrease is blocked by superoxide dismutase (SOD) or D(1)/D(2) receptor antagonists, it likely involves the generation of superoxide via activation of DA receptors. It also reduces the mitochondrial membrane potential. Most interestingly, a significant decrease in number of neuronal processes (spines analogous) was induced by 24-h application of DA only in low [GSH]. These data, compatible with our hypothesis, is consistent with the dendritic spines reduction reported in schizophrenia and could be related to abnormalities in synaptic connectivity.
And this one..
also bought a good book on the thyroid today called "the great thyroid scandal and how to survive it"
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 19, 2004, at 9:51:41
> Hi Kara, found these abstracts today...
>
> Grima, G., B. Benz, et al. (2003). "Dopamine-induced oxidative stress in neurons with glutathione deficit: implication for schizophrenia." Schizophr Res 62(3): 213-24.
>
> Glutathione (GSH) is the main non-protein antioxidant and plays a critical role in protecting cells from damage by reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated by dopamine (DA) metabolism. We reported a decrease of GSH levels ([GSH]) in CSF and in prefrontal cortex in vivo in schizophrenics [Eur. J. Neurosci. 12 (2000) 3721]. A GSH deficit may lead to membrane peroxidation and microlesions around dopaminergic terminals, resulting in loss of connectivity. To test this hypothesis, we studied the effect of DA in cultured cortical neurons with low [GSH]. DA alone decreased [GSH] by 40%. This effect appears to result from direct conjugation of DA semiquinone/quinone with GSH. Ethacrynic acid (EA) decreased [GSH] in a concentration-dependent manner. When added to EA, DA further lowers [GSH]. As this additional decrease is blocked by superoxide dismutase (SOD) or D(1)/D(2) receptor antagonists, it likely involves the generation of superoxide via activation of DA receptors. It also reduces the mitochondrial membrane potential. Most interestingly, a significant decrease in number of neuronal processes (spines analogous) was induced by 24-h application of DA only in low [GSH]. These data, compatible with our hypothesis, is consistent with the dendritic spines reduction reported in schizophrenia and could be related to abnormalities in synaptic connectivity.
>
> And this one..
>
> http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.neuro.27.070203.144206;jsessionid=j96WSOG9YwX9
>
> also bought a good book on the thyroid today called "the great thyroid scandal and how to survive it"
>
> Ray
Thanks Ray.
I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
In terms of the second abstract about the G protein-coupled receptor kinases (GRKs), I can't help but think that by the time they have something on the market for that I'll be much too old to care. I really do appreciate your sending me the abstract though. I guess I'm just feeling sorry for myself now. Ok, time for some CBT. Talk to you later.
Kara
Posted by JLx on October 19, 2004, at 20:45:42
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » JLx, posted by raybakes on October 18, 2004, at 15:07:43
>
> >
> > Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.
>
> Yes, not forgetting the hormones too! Although, pituitary regulation does rely on neurotransmitters, and I read a recent article that found that every single step of hormone production is influenced by the immune system.
>
> I totally agree about omega 3 fatty acids (thanks for the article) and often wonder what the effects will be now and in future generations.
> >
> > The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.
>
> Even though we have national health insurance, most doctors get most of their information through the drug companies - the government are also heavily influenced by the drug companies too, as is european government!
> >
>
> > Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: > JL
>
> The guy was skip atwater - I've used hemi sync before and found it can reduce the fogginess, and improve alertness, even the ones that are supposed to relax. I've also done a signature sound training course, and like using a large bass speaker to vibrate my whole body with sound!! I did find a frequency once that made a bit difference to my brain (i lost what frequency it was though, doh!) and interestingly,i felt great for two weeks until i had some potato crisps cooked in sunflower oil!
>
>
> Ray
Hmm...that IS interesting. I'm getting to where I look forward to my morning CD session. The one I'm listening to now is supposed to be theta and delta but when I listened to it at night once I was awake for hours. I'm surprised more people here don't try these things.JL
Posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
>
> I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
Hi Kara,Yes there is always the concern that mercury can be transported into the brain as well as out - in the excellent book "children with starving brains" they have a few protocols listed for heavy metal detoxification - they first use something called 'captomer' which is claimed not to cross the blood brain barrier.
I would be very surprised if glutathione wasn't a problem - there are many ways of raising it, each individual to the person. All the co-factors might be necessary combined with NAC - Thiodox is an excellent supplement. Glutamine is useful in raising glutathione as it can also buffer cellular acidity, as well as supply gluatamate for glutathione. My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
Here's a few abstracts....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8412764&dopt=Abstract
this is interesting about buffering and celluar calcium, sorry it's complex though!
'These results suggest that local ADP buffering by PCr is essential for normal Ca(2+) regulation by the SR.' (SR = sarcoplasmic reticulum)
So when energy is low, and ADP is higher than ATP, the cell becomes more acid - creatine (in my case 'think methylation' ) buffers the acidity and allows a cell to function more efficiently.
Posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 14:11:14
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!
Posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 15:18:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
Sorry, getting a bit carried away!!!
this is interesting, implicating a virus in inhibiting the dopamine transporter (DAT), and so causing damage to dopaminagenic neurons
Posted by Simus on October 20, 2004, at 23:15:28
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 14:11:14
> 'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
>
> How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!Sorry to butt in here... I have been following this thread (or trying to anyway) because Kara and I have so many symptoms in common. I have been semi-lost in the later posts, but now you completely lost me. I just have to ask about the chocolate and salami comment... What do they contain (PEA?), and how would you expect Kara (or me) to react after eating them? Thanks in advance.
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 2:36:23
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 20, 2004, at 23:15:28
> Sorry to butt in here... I have been following this thread (or trying to anyway) because Kara and I have so many symptoms in common. I have been semi-lost in the later posts, but now you completely lost me. I just have to ask about the chocolate and salami comment... What do they contain (PEA?), and how would you expect Kara (or me) to react after eating them? Thanks in advance.
Hi Simus, sorry to make things sound so confusing! I'm trying to work my way through it and get some meaning from it too. Kara talked about the supersensitivity of her dopamine receptors and I was looking for things that might downregulate the receptors. I saw references to PEA downregulating the D1 receptor and know PEA is in chocolate but was surprised to find it in salami (and I suppose in other meats and cheeses too?). Personally I know I can feel down and anxious until I eat some plain chocolate - after sex my mood drops, and plain chocolate is sometimes the only thing that raises it! Same with emotion too, can feel difficult to experience emotion, especially after sex, and wonder whether PEA loss is something to do with it?One abstract mentioned that the body can make PEA from phenylalanine, via phenylalanine decarboxylase (magnesium + p5p), but it can also turn phenylalanine, PEA and tyrosine into tyramine, the amine involved in migraines - I used to get headaches when I took DLPA, but don't at the moment - not sure why?
I'm also interested in protecting dopamine and dopamine receptors, and have seen several references to dopamine causing damage to neurons if not metabolised or transported efficiently. Methylation appears to be one way to protect them, glutathione, another, but found the idea of viruses inhibiting dopamine metabolism interesting, as dopamine irregularities are implicted in autism/adhd kids and they respond really well to anti-virals.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 8:15:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 15:18:06
found this of interest....
Effect of oestradiol on dopamine receptors and protein kinase C activity in the rat pituitary: binding of oestradiol to pituitary membranes.
Joubert-Bression D, Brandi AM, Birman P, Peillon F.
INSERM U 223, Faculte de Medecine Pitie-Salpetriere, Paris, France.
Oestradiol exerts an important modulatory influence on the release of prolactin which is accomplished partly through disruption of the inhibitory influence of dopamine. We have focused on the status of the anterior pituitary D2 dopamine receptor in female rats treated chronically with oestradiol or progesterone. A direct membrane effect of these steroids on the dopamine system was also investigated in vitro. Both steroids affected the status of the D2 receptor, oestradiol decreasing the number of sites in vitro and progesterone increasing it both in vitro and in vivo. The in vitro studies demonstrated that these steroids exert a direct membrane effect on the D2 receptor. These results correlated with an in vitro short-term physiological effect of oestradiol and progesterone on the dopaminergic inhibition of prolactin release, oestradiol decreasing it while progesterone had the opposite effect. Binding studies with [3H] oestradiol on pituitary membranes revealed a site for oestradiol of high affinity and low capacity, indicating that oestradiol's membrane effects could be mediated by a specific receptor. In vivo treatment with oestradiol also induces proliferation of prolactin-secreting cells (lactotrophs). We focused on the effect of oestradiol on protein kinase C activity, which is involved in both secretion and proliferation. In female rats treated with oestradiol total protein kinase C activity was increased by 74% (particulate 90%, soluble 71%) in comparison with controls. This effect was reversed by concomitant treatment with a dopamine agonist. Thus in the pituitary oestradiol and progesterone affect the characteristics of membrane components that are implicated in the physiological control of the cell. Whether these effects are post-transcriptional only or are also mediated through direct membrane mechanisms needs further investigation.
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 9:12:28
In reply to Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on June 23, 2004, at 23:06:51
sorry to post so much stuff....hope it's still of interest!
Vitamin D(3) attenuates 6-hydroxydopamine-induced neurotoxicity in rats.
Wang JY, Wu JN, Cherng TL, Hoffer BJ, Chen HH, Borlongan CV, Wang Y.
Department of Physiology, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan.
Previous reports have demonstrated that exogeneous administration of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) reduces ventral mesencephalic (VM) dopaminergic (DA) neuron damage induced by 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioning in rats. Recent studies have shown that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (D3) enhances endogenous GDNF expression in vitro and in vivo. The purpose of present study was to investigate if administration of D3 in vivo and in vitro would protect against 6-OHDA-induced DA neuron injury. Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were injected daily with D3 or with saline for 8 days and then lesioned unilaterally with 6-OHDA into the medial forebrain bundle. Locomotor activity was measured using automated activity chambers. We found that unilateral 6-OHDA lesioning reduced locomotor activity in saline-pretreated animals. Pretreatment with D3 for 8 days significantly restored locomotor activity in the lesioned animals. All animals were sacrificed for neurochemical analysis 6 weeks after lesioning. We found that 6-OHDA administration significantly reduced dopamine (DA), 3,4-dihydroxy-phenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanilic acid (HVA) levels in the substantia nigra (SN) on the lesioned side in the saline-treated rats. D3 pretreatment protected against 6-OHDA-mediated depletion of DA and its metabolites in SN. Using primary cultures obtained from the VM of rat embryos, we found that 6-OHDA or H(2)O(2) alone caused significant cell death. Pretreatment with D3 (10(-10) M) protected VM neurons against 6-OHDA- or H(2)O(2)-induced cell death in vitro. Taken together, our data indicate that D3 pretreatment attenuates the hypokinesia and DA neuronal toxicity induced by 6-OHDA. Since both H(2)O(2) and 6-OHDA may injure cells via free radical and reactive oxygen species, the neuroprotection seen here may operate via a reversal of such a toxic mechanism.
Protective effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) against the neurotoxicity of glutamate and reactive oxygen species in mesencephalic culture.Ibi M, Sawada H, Nakanishi M, Kume T, Katsuki H, Kaneko S, Shimohama S, Akaike A.
Department of Pharmacology, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kyoto University, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan.
This study was undertaken to determine whether 1 alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3)], an active metabolite of vitamin D, protects dopaminergic neurons against the neurotoxic effects of glutamate and dopaminergic toxins using rat mesecephalic culture. Brief glutamate exposure elicited cytotoxicity in both dopaminergic and non-dopaminergic neurons. Pretreatment, but not co-administration, of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity of glutamate in a concentration- and time-dependent manner. The neuroprotective effect of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) was inhibited by the protein synthesis inhibitor, cycloheximide. To investigate the mechanisms of these neuroprotective effects, we examined the effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) on neurotoxicity induced by calcium ionophore and reactive oxygen species (ROS). Pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity induced by A23187 in a concentration-dependent manner. Furthermore, 24-h pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) concentration-dependently protected both types of neurons from ROS-induced cytotoxicity. A 24-h incubation with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) inhibited the increase in intracellular ROS level following H(2)O(2) exposure. A 24-h exposure to 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridium ion (MPP(+)) or 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) exerted selective neurotoxicity on dopaminergic neurons, and these neurotoxic effects were ameliorated by 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3). These results suggest that 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) provides protection of dopaminergic neurons against cytotoxicity induced by glutamate and dopaminergic toxins by facilitating cellular functions that reduce oxidative stress.
Posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 9:48:36
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 2:36:23
Thanks Ray, that is all very fascinating. Your posts aren't confusing. I am just trying to process the vast amount of information I get here with less-than-usual mental faculties...
The reason I perked up at your last post here was the mention of chocolate and salami. I had just a few days ago told Kara about chocolate being my mood "cure-all". And, one thing that I never really understood was my cravings for salami, summer sausage, etc. I just chalked that one up to being drawn to wrong foods.
Something you mentioned in your post to me that I find interesting was "the body can make PEA from phenylalanine, via phenylalanine decarboxylase (magnesium + p5p)". Oddly enough, I was very deficient in both magnesium and B6 and I believe I must still be to some degree (I have symptoms again within a day or two of missing my supplements).
I am going to go out on a limb and ask you a question that may seem really dumb to you. Right now I am digging through my memory archives to place where I have heard "phenylalanine" a lot in the past. Is that in over-the-counter diet pills? (Sorry if I am way off.)
You mentioned viruses also. Whenever I run a low-grade fever I have mental symptoms (depression, anxiety, brain fog...). I am going through that right now in fact. I just associated the mental symptoms with the fever and not so much with the cause of the fever. Now I am rethinking things... The first time I noticed this connection was when I had a severe case of mono 25 years ago (now 43). Do you think that this same virus could remain dormant in my body for this long and pop up every so often causing ugly mental symptoms? Hmmm...
Thanks again,
Simus
Posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 10:05:28
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 9:12:28
That is really fascinating. Since I am still processing info and trying to tie everything together...
I am very sensitive to glutamates. Do you think that this could be a vitamin D deficiency? Well, at least it sounds like D would prevent damage caused by glutamates, huh?
Is "1 alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3)]" found in the typical vitamin D, or is there a specific form of D or D complex I would need to buy?
Thanks for your patience.
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 11:37:14
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
retinoic acid inhibiting TSH is interesting, particularly as hypothyroid people don't activate vitamin A easily.
Retinoic acid inhibits in vivo thyroid-stimulating hormone secretion.
Coya R, Carro E, Mallo F, Dieguez C.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Santiago de Compostela, Spain.
Retinoids are needed for normal growth and development. Retinoic acid (RA), an active metabolite of vitamin A, acts through nuclear receptors that belongs to the superfamily which also includes the T3 receptors and 1-25-dihydroxyvitamin D receptor. In order to assess whether RA is a regulator of in vivo thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) secretion, we studied the effect of RA administration on spontaneous basal TSH secretion and TSH responses to TRH in either euthyroid or hypothyroid rats. We found that rats treated with RA showed a decrease in spontaneous basal TSH levels and TSH responses to TRH. Similarly, RA administration to hypothyroid rats led to a decrease on TSH responses to TRH. Our data suggests that RA plays an important inhibitory role on in vivo secretion and this effect is unrelated to the thyroid status of the animals.
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 14:03:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 9:48:36
> Something you mentioned in your post to me that I find interesting was "the body can make PEA from phenylalanine, via phenylalanine decarboxylase (magnesium + p5p)". Oddly enough, I was very deficient in both magnesium and B6 and I believe I must still be to some degree (I have symptoms again within a day or two of missing my supplements).
the decarboxylase enzymes are elsewhere too...glutamate to GABA is via a carboxylase enzyme
>
> I am going to go out on a limb and ask you a question that may seem really dumb to you. Right now I am digging through my memory archives to place where I have heard "phenylalanine" a lot in the past. Is that in over-the-counter diet pills? (Sorry if I am way off.)No, it's not dumb!! it is in some diet supplements, but it's also DLPA - ie. l-phenylalaine and d-phenylalaine.
>
> You mentioned viruses also. Whenever I run a low-grade fever I have mental symptoms (depression, anxiety, brain fog...). I am going through that right now in fact. I just associated the mental symptoms with the fever and not so much with the cause of the fever. Now I am rethinking things... The first time I noticed this connection was when I had a severe case of mono 25 years ago (now 43). Do you think that this same virus could remain dormant in my body for this long and pop up every so often causing ugly mental symptoms? Hmmm...
>
The autism researchers have done a lot of work with how viruses affect the immune and nervous system - I've seen mononucleosis also called CMV, can you call what you had, CMV...anyway, here's a good article on viruses and autism...and yes they can lay dormant, until we get low!
http://members.jorsm.com/~binstock/hhv6.htm
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 14:12:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 10:05:28
> I am very sensitive to glutamates. Do you think that this could be a vitamin D deficiency? Well, at least it sounds like D would prevent damage caused by glutamates, huh?Think there's several reasons for glutamate sensitivity (magnesium + zinc + B6 deficiency, inflammation, heavy metal toxicity, lipid peroxidation, infection, low pH, alcohol...and sure there's others!) and vitamin D can help in some people - I find I have to take vitamin A at the same time from a fish oil source. Vitamin D is in cod liver oil, but not in sufficient quantities for a reasonable deficiency.
>
> Is "1 alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3)]" found in the typical vitamin D, or is there a specific form of D or D complex I would need to buy?I bought vitamin D3 by biotics, but it is suggested that a doctor monitors your levels - if you can find one who would work with you!
>
> Thanks for your patience.
>
anytime!!Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 15:42:29
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 14:12:47
maybe this was why i needed vitamin A and D together...if vitamin D upregulates TSH, then maybe I needed vitamin A to downregulate it?
TSH secretion stimulated by thyroliberin in patients with hypothyroidism receiving 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3]
[Article in Polish]
Gasinska T, Kierat A, Kochanska-Dziurowicz A, Izbicka M.
I Klinika Chorob Wewnetrznych Slaskiej AM, Katowicach.
The effect of 1,25-hydroxy vitamin D3 on the secretion of TSH was studied in 49 patients with primary hypothyroidism. The vitamin D3 metabolite did not cause any significant changes in the secretion of TSH both basal and stimulated with TRH in patients with untreated hypothyroidism. In those treated with the synthetic L-thyroxine it produced a significant increase in basal TSH secretion.
Posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 16:11:24
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 14:12:47
Thanks for all the info, Ray! You are a blessing.
Do you mind if I ask if you are on meds, and if so, which ones? Also, would you mind sharing what your diagnosis was? You obviously don't have to, and if you don't want to, I would certainly understand. But I would guess you and Kara and I have some similar things happening here...
God bless,
Simus
Posted by tealady on October 21, 2004, at 19:57:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 11:37:14
> retinoic acid inhibiting TSH is interesting, particularly as hypothyroid people don't activate vitamin A easily.
>
> Retinoic acid inhibits in vivo thyroid-stimulating hormone secretion.
>
> Coya R, Carro E, Mallo F, Dieguez C.
>
> Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Santiago de Compostela, Spain.
>
> Retinoids are needed for normal growth and development. Retinoic acid (RA), an active metabolite of vitamin A, acts through nuclear receptors that belongs to the superfamily which also includes the T3 receptors and 1-25-dihydroxyvitamin D receptor. In order to assess whether RA is a regulator of in vivo thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) secretion, we studied the effect of RA administration on spontaneous basal TSH secretion and TSH responses to TRH in either euthyroid or hypothyroid rats. We found that rats treated with RA showed a decrease in spontaneous basal TSH levels and TSH responses to TRH. Similarly, RA administration to hypothyroid rats led to a decrease on TSH responses to TRH. Our data suggests that RA plays an important inhibitory role on in vivo secretion and this effect is unrelated to the thyroid status of the animals.
>Interesting Ray.
I would not have been surprised if you'd found VitD plays an important inhibitory role on TSH responses to TRH.
Logic here being on hotter days( supposedly stronger VitD in sun) you seem to need less T3..which also makes sense as you don't require as much energy to maintain body temperature at 37C..not that I ever get there!Nah, VItD and temperature are tooooo far unrelated. I wonder how temperature regulates TSH?
Is there any chemical type thing in our body that has to do with temperature..we must regulate somehow? My regulation of body temperature doesn't appear to function that well.
(decided I'm part ectotherm :))(I'm 33.5 and 34.5 today underarm, unless I get up above 36 my right underarm is usually 1 degree colder than left uderarm..strange no?)
But I've never thought about VitA.
Hmm I've no idea know what function VitA plays in our body come to think of it..Thanks, Jan
Posted by tealady on October 21, 2004, at 20:35:29
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 15:42:29
> maybe this was why i needed vitamin A and D together...if vitamin D upregulates TSH, then maybe I needed vitamin A to downregulate it?
>
> TSH secretion stimulated by thyroliberin in patients with hypothyroidism receiving 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3]>
> [Article in Polish]>
> Gasinska T, Kierat A, Kochanska-Dziurowicz A, Izbicka M.
>
> The effect of 1,25-hydroxy vitamin D3 on the secretion of TSH was studied in 49 patients with primary hypothyroidism. The vitamin D3 metabolite did not cause any significant changes in the secretion of TSH both basal and stimulated with TRH in patients with untreated hypothyroidism. In those treated with the synthetic L-thyroxine it produced a significant increase in basal TSH secretion.
>well there goes that logic. Should have read all your posts first :)
I've always found too that I need the oil based A&D together.(if at all..usually only in winter)
I'd just assumed it worked well as the form of VitA and VitD maybe closer to my bodies requirements. Never really thought about needing both..just they come together in nature in this form..and also generally if they come together in nature, then that's usually how we are designed to need them.... natural selection and all that stuff)..even if we haven't worked out the why as yet.
BTW I thought the choice we have commercially was usually cod liver oil or halibut liver oil... both fish liver oils..cod or halibut. I have for the past 10 years used halibut liver oil I thought? Do you find one better than the other?Grin, remember before I confused the two re carotene?..its like I said, I've always thought about them together..except on the parathyroid /calc/VitD/phosphate path.
At a stretch I guess extra VitD could caus extra calcium (given sufficient amounts of other things..oestogen being one of probably lots)
and calc could lower available thyroid hormones in those on T4 replacement..which may feedback to pit/hypo and raise TSH..if that pathway is working optimally!
Is this logic correct? BTW I always welcome/enjoy constructive critism.
Jan
Posted by karaS on October 21, 2004, at 23:56:52
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
> >
> > I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
>
>
> Hi Kara,
>
> Yes there is always the concern that mercury can be transported into the brain as well as out - in the excellent book "children with starving brains" they have a few protocols listed for heavy metal detoxification - they first use something called 'captomer' which is claimed not to cross the blood brain barrier.
>
> I would be very surprised if glutathione wasn't a problem - there are many ways of raising it, each individual to the person. All the co-factors might be necessary combined with NAC - Thiodox is an excellent supplement. Glutamine is useful in raising glutathione as it can also buffer cellular acidity, as well as supply gluatamate for glutathione. My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
>
> Here's a few abstracts....
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8412764&dopt=Abstract
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15090905
>
> this is interesting about buffering and celluar calcium, sorry it's complex though!
>
> 'These results suggest that local ADP buffering by PCr is essential for normal Ca(2+) regulation by the SR.' (SR = sarcoplasmic reticulum)
>
> So when energy is low, and ADP is higher than ATP, the cell becomes more acid - creatine (in my case 'think methylation' ) buffers the acidity and allows a cell to function more efficiently.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11897848
>
Ray,
Since I've been working the past couple of days and will be again tomorrow, I haven't had much time to answer these or read the citations. I was going to wait until this weekend to respond but I have the feeling that with all of this activity here, the train will have taken off if I wait until then...In answer to your post, what is "captomer" - something to be taken in place of NAC, with it or just separately to prevent mercury from entering the brain? Also, what is Thiodox? Do you believe that I should take the NAC and if so, what dosage? Do you think that there is any concern about taking l-glutamine? (in respect to it's producing too much glutamate which can serve as an excitotoxin). What is a reasonable dosage then for l-glutamine? (Had you read any of the posts below on this topic?) I hadn't realized that it played an important role in the immune system as your abstract indicated but by taking it are you helping your immune system while doing damage to your brain? Also, if creatine allows for methylation, then what is a good dosage to take of that? Do you recommend that for everyone or only for those with a methylation problem. If one has a methylation problem, then how does one determine that?
Actually, I have a book at home here by Dr. David Perlmutter. It’s called "The Better Brain Book." He has a dosing schedule of various supplements to take for various levels of need. It’s written for the masses so it’s easy for people like me to read but he has also published some more in depth articles on the topic. He’s a neurologist with a holistic bent – not a very common combination. Anyway, I guess I should follow his dosing schedules when I can afford to. He doesn’t have creatine or l-glutamine on there at all however, so I’d still be especially interested in how much of that you recommend taking.
Thanks,
KaraP.S. Simus isn’t the only one who can ask a lot of questions!
Posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:12:13
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 14:11:14
> 'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
>
> How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!
Ray,You're saying that my favorite "food" of all time could be the very thing that saves me????
It reminds me of that Woody Allen movie where he wakes up a long time into the future and he is told that sugar (ice cream sundaes, cakes etc.) are the true health foods.
Anyway, I LOVE CHOCOLATE! I guess I could say that I do well on it. I crave it unbelievably. I've guessed that I was low in PEA because of that and also because I read that it is implicated in "rejection sensitivity." I am extremely sensitive to rejection. Because of this I thought that I would do well on the combination of selegilne and DLPA or l-phenylaline. However, the selegiline made me sleepy and then about 8 hours later made me stimulated (definitely some malfuncion there). I can't remember if I tried combining it with DLPA or l-phenylalanine yet. I do remember that I took some chocolate with it and I got really shakey from too much PEA. At any rate, because of the strange reaction to the selegiline, I gave up on it. Now I'm thinking that if the PEA might decrease the amount of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors, then it might be worth trying again. I wonder if it's only the D1 receptors that are involved. Those are the Parkinson's related receptors, no?
K
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