![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 140 to 164 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:50:19
In reply to Re: NADH » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:53:25
> > > > > Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
> > > > >
> > > > > Simus
> > >
> > > Ignorance is the normal human condition. Those with initiative rise above it.
> >
> > Good point.
>
> I do that, once in a while, eh?
>
> > >
> > > Co-Q10 is also known as ubiquinone. It's one of two key chemicals required for your mitochondria to produce ATP, the universal energy source for all the rest of the stuff your body does. The other key chemical is NADH.
> > >
> > > Alphalipoic acid helps protect ubiquinone and NADH, too.
> > >
> > > > I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive.
> > >
> > > It can be expensive, I suppose, but no more than a Starbucks coffee is an expensive thing. CoQ10 and NADH are related, and both are promising for the same group.
> > >
> >
> > True, have a Starbucks coffee everyday would be on par with NADH daily.
>
> I always try to contextualize the price of self-care. What's the price of NADH, in terms of cigarette packs or six-packs of beer? Ya know?
>
> > I was thinking that Co-Q10 and NADH not related structurally. I think you're saying they're related functionally, no?
>
> Yes, they are functionally related. They have no structural similarity, at all. CoQ10 acts in a biochemical energy transfer, passing the energy over to NADH.
>
> > I've read that idebenone is even better than Co-Q10. Do you agree?
>
> CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.
> Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)
>
> > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> >
> > > Lar
> >
> > You're kidding with that dose, right?
>
> No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
>I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.
> > Be well and prosper,
> >
> > Kara
>
> You too. We will, you know.
>
> LarI don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:53:27
In reply to Re: NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:56:12
> > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > >
> > > > Lar
> > >
> > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> >
> > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> >
> > > Be well and prosper,
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> > You too. We will, you know.
> >
> > Lar
>
> P.S. I forgot to emphasize that my point was to counter your assertion that "nothing short of an atom bomb" would have an effect on you. I am not seriously suggesting you use a big dose of TMG, but I suspect that you would discover that six grams of TMG is less than an atom bomb.
>
> Lar
>I'm much too chicken to try a huge dose right away. My style is to build up very, very slowly on things. I'd stop way before the atom bomb effect.
Kara
Posted by Simus on August 21, 2004, at 21:44:32
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 22:29:20
> What day is your doctor's appointment?
Kara,
I have an appointment on Tuesday with the Naturopathic Doctor. I sure hope she can help me more than the traditional doctors have. Thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble Alternative that have helped me get this far. I will let you know how it goes.
How have you been feeling. Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
I am glad that you are still hanging on to that wonderful sense of humor. I enjoy reading your posts.
Hey, way to find Larry's sweetie! Good detective work! I am impressed.
God bless,
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 1:51:30
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 21, 2004, at 21:44:32
> > What day is your doctor's appointment?
>
> Kara,
>
> I have an appointment on Tuesday with the Naturopathic Doctor. I sure hope she can help me more than the traditional doctors have. Thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble Alternative that have helped me get this far. I will let you know how it goes.
>Great. Can't wait to hear about it.
> How have you been feeling.Like I'm in a canoe at sea without any paddles and I'm running out of food. (You're a sweatheart for asking though. I'm sure things will get better once I get my program into action. Larry keeps urging patience but that's really a luxury I don't have right now.)
>Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
I'm still devising "the plan". I've asked Larry a gazillion questions in the last few days. Yes, definitely thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble in general.
> I am glad that you are still hanging on to that wonderful sense of humor. I enjoy reading your posts.Thanks. Same here. I'm always surprised when I post on another board and someone will make mention of one of my posts here on the Alternative Board. I sometimes forget that other people are reading them. I always assume that they would bore everyone to death the way I drone on and on and on about the various supplements I'm thinking of taking.
> Hey, way to find Larry's sweetie! Good detective work! I am impressed.I'm not as dumb as I look!
Well, now that they're outed I think it's only fair that we get more of the details, don't you???
> God bless,
>
> Simus
God bless you too,Kara
Posted by Simus on August 22, 2004, at 2:37:27
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 1:51:30
> > How have you been feeling.
>
> Like I'm in a canoe at sea without any paddles and I'm running out of food. (You're a sweatheart for asking though. I'm sure things will get better once I get my program into action. Larry keeps urging patience but that's really a luxury I don't have right now.)I know that feeling well. I am praying for you. I wish I had that "secret answer" to make it all better for you.
> >Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
>
> I'm still devising "the plan". I've asked Larry a gazillion questions in the last few days. Yes, definitely thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble in general.
>
Let us know how you are doing, OK?God bless,
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:30:05
> > His faculty website is still not working. :-/ (that's a grumpy face, Kara)
>
> Are you making some of these up or is that really an accepted representation?You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
> How does everybody know all of the symbols? Is there a list somewhere?
Sorry, I should have pasted it here. ;-) <winky face>
> Perhaps if I had developed this Internet forum addiction years ago, I'd know all of this but being a newbie, I'm really in the dark (in more ways than one).
I seem to like that you are in the dark, Kara. ;->
>
> > However, some of his work is available elsewhere.
> >
> > http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5935/5935.html
> >
> > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/4393/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
> >
> > Here's one based on his work:
> > http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/chronic_fatigue_syndrome.pdf
> >
> > Don't be worried about whether Multiple Chemical Sensitivity applies to you or not. The underlying biochemistry is the same. It just expresses itself differently in different people.
> >
>
> Thanks. I'll check them out this weekend. One thing that's confusing is trying to figure out what pertains and what doesn't when he's gearing his talk to a different, but in someways related, topic. I may end up favoring certain supplements when I should be favoring others.Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
> > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
>
> This is high on the list now (unless I start taking selegiline. Don't know if you can mix them?)I wouldn't, at least at first. Too easy to get the effects mixed up or confounded.
> It's good for focus, memory, immune system and side effects from Effexor withdrawal. Hope I can tolerate it.
Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.
> I just read the following on Picamilon (while looking for info on it's differing effects at different dosages):
>
> "Picamilone has a unique tranquilizing effect (the manifestation of action is inferior to diazepam); in this case picamilone does not cause a myorelaxation effect. The important property of picamilone is the ability to quickly restore mental and physical fitness for work, which was lost through overstress."
>
> Maybe that should be near the top of my list to try as well!! (Of course it would be either or, NOT combined with Ginkgo.) Here's the link that it came from on IAS' web site. I am taking into account that it comes from a source that is selling it:
>
> http://www.picamilone.org/picamilone-1.htm
>
> Here's another blurb about the dosage:
>
> "EFFECTS:
> The effects of Picamilon are usually felt quickly, with most people noticing impact within an hour. The effects of each dose last for about 4-6 hours. In small doses of 50mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a mild tranquilizing and mood stabilizing effect without sedation. In higher doses of 100mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a stimulating influence that is experienced as an increase in energy and endurance. The cognitive enhancing effects of Picamilon are cumulative and become more evident after several weeks of daily usage."
>
> The paragraph above is also from a site selling it. Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
>
> http://www.smart-drugs.net/info-picamilon.htmBeyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.
> > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
>
> Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.
> > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> >
> > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> >
> > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > >
> > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> >
> > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
>
> via glutathione:
> NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.
> > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
>
> I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
> > >
> > > I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all.
> >
> > Articles are suggestive to me, never definitive. I have never seen another recommendation to take that much phosphatidylserine, ever. PS is also a neurotransmitter. I would never take that much.
>
>
> Yes, you really do need to read a lot of dfferent things and then form your opinion.
> I forgot that it was also a neurotransmitter. Do you take it? If so, how much?Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.
> > > Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows?
> >
> > Soya lecithin is a good source of the three other phosphatides: phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, and phosphatidylethanolamine. You'll note that the chemical names reflect their structure. They contain choline, inositol and ethanolamine, respectively. The missing one of the soy-based tetrad is phosphatidylserine. They chemically switch one or another of the add-on bits to serine, and you get phosphatidlyserine.
> >
> > > Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
> >
> > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> >
>
> Cute!Yes!
> > The only possible benefit of natural source materials is that they may be impure. It happens that some of the impurities are natural cofactors for the target nutrient, so it's more like taking a multivitamin instead of a single nutrient. That is an accidental effect, and is not due to chemical differences in the nutrient itself.
> >
> > "Natural source" vitamin C happens to come with other impurities (what are called co-extractives), such as bioflavinoids. People had better results from natural vitamin C because they got other active chemicals, not because the vitamin C was better.
> >
> > Synthetic nutrients are generally very pure, because chemists are working with very pure chemicals as a matter of course.
>
> Yes, that's exactly my understanding of it. My description was clumsy. But the point is that those other active chemicals in the complex that was called phosphatidylserine are not in the substance that is now called phosphatidylserine. So is it as useful? Is it worth the expense?I don't really know. I don't know how they go about purifying PS from animal tissue.
> >
> > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
>
> Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"To the point, non?
> > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> >
> > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
>
>
> I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.
Still, if I can afford them some day, I'll likely do the research, and do the experiment(s).
> > Such is the nature of the beast. There are many many pseudo-scientists and poseurs in the alternative field.
>
> Yes, with no regulating committees to review them. Then add on all of the people trying to sell things and the claims they make, and you have an environment in which you have to be very careful and skeptical in whatever you read.The regulatory committees are so evidence-based, that accepted folk use might not ever meet the scientific threshold, too. Cuts both ways. One advantage I have, I suppose, is that my BS-detector has a good database to consult.
> > > I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
> >
> > It was a strange mix of both, for me, if I recall correctly. Messed with my sleep.
> >
>
> You do have a terrible time with that, don't you?Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
> > That amount of licorice is trivial. I wonder why companies add in those little bits of this and that? <shrug>
>
> So that those who don't know enough will be impressed with the long list of ingredients in the drink or supplement and purchase them. Must work enough 'cuz they keep doing it. Some times I'll see products with tons of ingredients and yet none of them in any strength to do very much. The entire product is useless. "Caveat Emptor" as they say.Indeed. Caveat placebo.
> > That's where the patience comes in, Kara. You have to push sensibly. I look at each day, the demands for that day, and my energy budget. I have to balance the energy books for that day. If I have to dip into "savings", my energy reserves, I have to recognize the risk involved (i.e. future opportunities for doing so). If I run the account into the red, I fall down, go boom.
> >
>
> Do you really? I've never thought about it that way. I wouldn't even know where to begin to do that. I'd have to know how much energy I'd have available each day and I don't know that. It's not stable in my case.I think you *do* know that. I just think you haven't listened quietly enough. It's not a stable parameter, and that's why it is so important. When you go, "Oh geez, I'm really going to have to push myself to do the dishes today.", where do you think that concept comes from? You've asked yourself if you're up for it. You can become more conscious of the assessment process. What I have described is now innate for me. I'm not perfect at it. I make mistakes. But it is a very useful construct for me.
> > > I know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).
> >
> > Excellent!Just remember, falling down and going boom is an outcome you can't afford, no matter what other things there are that you can't afford.
> > > How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you.
> >
> > Yes, it was. I know that I can sleep better, in a quiet environment. My own is noisy, and with the physical contrast between the two circumstances, I now know that I either have to move (I hate moving), or find a way to block the noise. I just sent away for a white noise generator. We'll see if that helps.
>
> It should help. You could also try a loud fan. I have been using a loud fan as my white noise generator for many years. I can't stand sleeping without it. The minute i hear it, a sense of calm and euphoria (seriously) comes over me. I can't tell you how much I love it. I always shop around for the noisiest fans. People think I'm crazy (for more reasons than just this one, however). I can't stand it when fans advertise as "whisper quiet". What the hell good is that??? Air conditioning noise is even better - pure nirvana.Ya, but I need noisier than I have....so...I bought this probably way over-priced artifically noisy mini-fan. We'll see.
> Glad there was no need for the bone marrow biopsy!
>
> - Relieved in LA:-) <you know that one, right?>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:51:43
In reply to Re: NADH Co-Q10 » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:50:19
> > CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.
>
> I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.There is a fair amount of CoQ10 in your food. It's in both meat and vegetables. Purifying it is what makes it so expensive. You may not need extra, ya know?
> > Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.
>
> With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)Yes.
> > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > >
> > > > Lar
> > >
> > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> >
> > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> >
>
> I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.I'm serious about the dose. Some people need that much, or more, to feel the effect. Thinking you need an atom bomb is a rather limiting perception.
> > > Be well and prosper,
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> > You too. We will, you know.
> >
> > Lar
>
> I don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
>
> -KAhhh, the underpinnings of faith arise. I wish I knew an emoticon for Buddha's smile.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
> You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htmThat website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
> Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
So for energy, Adrenal Fatigue and cognitive function, it's all about the mitochondria (and the adrenals of course)?
> > > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
> >
>>
> Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.Good, then I'm even less worried about its effect on adrenal fatigue. (I cut out stuff above so I'm trying to figure out if your yin, yang comment referred to selegiline or ginkgo. I think it's the latter, right?)
re:Picamilon you wrote:
> Beyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
SMI2Le.biz (what does that stand for, anyway?)sells it as well. I'll have to compare prices.
You obviously feel that these places sell quality stuff, right? It's a little scary to me when it doesn't have a name with a good track record on the label. (Not that that guarantees purity either.)
> I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.That's such a shame how much tougher it is to get things in Canada. What part of Canada are you in, BTW?
> > > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> >
> > Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.
>
> I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO! No, Ive actually hit the books on this one. I just can't get a sense of how critical this one is. I think, since it's so expensive, that I'm going to leave it off of the original plan unless I can find it in bulk on one of the two sites I've mentioned. I can try it later as an add-in and judge from there.
> > > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> > >
> > > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> > >
> > > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > > >
> > > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> > >
> > > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
> >
> > via glutathione:
> > NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.
>
> That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.Pretty incredible stuff.
> > > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
> >
> > I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.
>
> I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
>
> Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
I like the word "geekazoid". Have to remember that one.
> Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.Do you get in bulk as well or do you pay a small fortune for it prepackaged?
> > > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> > >
> >
> > Cute!
>
> Yes!
>(If you do say so yourself!)
> > > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
> >
> > Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"
>
> To the point, non?mais oui (Since you're Canadian, are you fluent in French?)
> > > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> > >
> > > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
> >
> >
> > I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.
>
> I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.I hear ya. (scared of what's in YOUR brain that is)
> Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
>Yes, something I think of as the Elvis syndrome because I heard about how many uppers he'd take during the day to keep going and then he'd have to take a ton of downers at night to knock himself out.
Well, hope your new white noise fan works for you.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:36:41
In reply to Re: NADH Co-Q10 » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:51:43
> > > CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.
> >
> > I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.
>
> There is a fair amount of CoQ10 in your food. It's in both meat and vegetables. Purifying it is what makes it so expensive. You may not need extra, ya know?Wish I could just test all for all of these things easily with one simple blood test.
> > > Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.
> >
> > With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)
>
> Yes.
>
> > > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > > Lar
> > > >
> > > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> > >
> > > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> > >
> >
> > I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.
>
> I'm serious about the dose. Some people need that much, or more, to feel the effect. Thinking you need an atom bomb is a rather limiting perception.
Yes, I have a lot of limiting perceptions. Hopefully the CBT journaling will help with that.
> > > > Be well and prosper,
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > > You too. We will, you know.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > I don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
> >
> > -K
>
> Ahhh, the underpinnings of faith arise. I wish I knew an emoticon for Buddha's smile.
>
> Lar
I really liked that "We will, you know". That was sweet. Hopefully also true.I can't believe there's no emoticon for Buddha's smile. There is for everything else.
Later,
Kara
Posted by gabbix2 on August 22, 2004, at 23:33:55
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
> What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO!
No, no no! *Real* daddy mode, he's got two sons to go do guy stuff with for the next few days.
Posted by KaraS on August 23, 2004, at 0:06:50
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by gabbix2 on August 22, 2004, at 23:33:55
> > What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO!
>
> No, no no! *Real* daddy mode, he's got two sons to go do guy stuff with for the next few days.
Oh, WOW. Larry is a daddy! Will the surprises never end? (Do either of them have his database mind?)
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 0:24:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » gabbix2, posted by KaraS on August 23, 2004, at 0:06:50
Posted by Simus on August 27, 2004, at 0:41:32
In reply to Re: How did your doctor's appt. go? - Simus (nm), posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 0:24:30
Oops - I wrote to you about it but on another thread. It is toward the bottom of the page...
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:15:10
In reply to Re: How did your doctor's appt. go? - Simus » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 27, 2004, at 0:41:32
> Oops - I wrote to you about it but on another thread. It is toward the bottom of the page...
>
> SimusMaybe it's on the social board? I'll check there.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:22:02
In reply to Re: It didn't get posted » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:15:10
Posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
In reply to Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on June 23, 2004, at 23:06:51
Hi Kara and all,
Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
Find Dr Pall's theory on peroxynitrite and mitochondrial dysfunction relevant to me as anything that helps reduce peroxynitrite or superoxide seems to help. Have started taking carnosine recently to help in mopping up products of mitochondrial membrane damage (4 hydroxynonenal) and help balance cellular pH. Also taking lipothiamine (thiamine + alpha lipoic acid) - one of the few B1 supplements I can tolerate, I feel quite ill on most thiamines like thiamine HCl in a lot of multiples.
I've got a feeling that the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase in the kreb's cycle is a problem, so getting a good balance of B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and alpha lipoic acid is important for me, but taking a B complex is a nightmare, and I just have to juggle the balance. At the moment I'm fine with lipothiamine and niacinamide, but have previously taken R5P, P5P, and pantethine. I have to avoid things that damage either the enzyme or B1 such as alcohol, pesticides and heavy metals. Insulin resistance can also inhibit pyruvate dehyrogenase, so keeping my blood sugar and insulin in balance seems to help.
Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine? This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=AbstractHave taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.
So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!
PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.
Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.
Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!
Ray
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:13:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
Hi Ray,
Overwhelmed or bored? I'm totally amazed and fascinated! Some of it is over my head at this point in my exploration but I'm just blown away by the amount of detailed information you've managed to find out about yourself and brain fog and impart to us here.
I have been wanting to get a complete set of tests done by a holistic doctor for quite a while now but haven't been able to afford it. The doctor I want to see uses Great Smokies Lab as well. Now I'm even more certain that's a step I need to take.
I have some comments and questions sprinkled throughout your post if you wouldn't mind answering them.
> Hi Kara and all,
>
> Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
>
> Find Dr Pall's theory on peroxynitrite and mitochondrial dysfunction relevant to me as anything that helps reduce peroxynitrite or superoxide seems to help. Have started taking carnosine recently to help in mopping up products of mitochondrial membrane damage (4 hydroxynonenal) and help balance cellular pH. Also taking lipothiamine (thiamine + alpha lipoic acid) - one of the few B1 supplements I can tolerate, I feel quite ill on most thiamines like thiamine HCl in a lot of multiples.
>
> I've got a feeling that the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase in the kreb's cycle is a problem, so getting a good balance of B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and alpha lipoic acid is important for me, but taking a B complex is a nightmare, and I just have to juggle the balance. At the moment I'm fine with lipothiamine and niacinamide, but have previously taken R5P, P5P, and pantethine. I have to avoid things that damage either the enzyme or B1 such as alcohol, pesticides and heavy metals. Insulin resistance can also inhibit pyruvate dehyrogenase, so keeping my blood sugar and insulin in balance seems to help.Fortunately I am able to tolerate all of the B vitamins and have been taking them fairly regularly. I think I may need to take them in better proportion though. What is R5P?
> Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
That's so amazing to me that your test was able to show this. I hadn't realized that the tests were so far evolved. I also can tolerate NAC and was taking it regularly for awhile. It's one of those supplements for me that I'm sure is doing good things but I can't tell in terms of seing effects.
> Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!I have methionine here at home that I should finish up. Again, I couldn't tell any difference when taking it. Perhaps I should try it with lysine. Then when those are used up, I'll switch to TMG and B12 as I'm sure that would be a better overall combination.
> Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine? This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=AbstractI only feel a little bit of a stimulation on DLPA which I attributed to PEA but I didn't find that helped my depression or that I was able to concentrate better. I may not have been taking enough though or perhaps I do need to experiment with Norival and niacinamide. Thanks for the abstract. I'll read it after I send this message to you.
> Have taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
Good suggestion.
> I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.
>
> So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!What amount of DLPA do you take? Do you feel at all wired or hyper on that dose or maybe just mildly stimulated? I'm trying to find solutions right now that won't tax my adrenal glands as I fear I have adrenal fatigue.
> PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.
Recently I've been feeling somewhat better and I wasn't sure why. The changes I made were adding maca and extra magnesium to my routine. The only other thing I changed was adding chromium although that was at least a couple of weeks back. I didn't see any change soon enough with the chromium and so never thought it could explain my improvement but now that I read your last paragraph, I'm wondering. Could it take at least two weeks to see it's effects? I'm definitely going to check out the Venocap herbs by Thorne Research. Thanks for the tip.
> Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.Hmmmm. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis so I bet the above pertains to me as well. If you don't mind what might be a dumb question: How does one oppose expression of interleukin 1?
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex),Are you using "hyper-ex" to mean hypericin, hypericum or hyperforin? That's interesting to me that SJW helped you. Since it's more serotonergic, I don't generally associate it with helping with brain fog. Quite the contrary in fact.
>especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too).
I guess that might explain it.
For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!Where do you get the two things you just mentioned? I have Monolaurin at home to try for immune support. It's a monoglyceride that's supposed to have anti-microbial properties. I haven't given it much of a trial yet though.
> Ray
>Also, I'm curious as to whether you read most or all of that long thread we had going here on brain fog. Sometimes we'd include some silliness as well as a lot of personal information in the posts. I wonder if all of that made it into the archives.
Thanks again for all of that valuable information! Glad to hear from a fellow sufferer who has made so much progress!!
Kara
Posted by raybakes on September 7, 2004, at 11:20:35
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:13:44
Hi Kara,
Thanks for reply, seems so much to say, but here it goes!
>I have been wanting to get a complete set of >tests done by a holistic doctor for quite a >while now but haven't been able to afford it. >The doctor I want to see uses Great Smokies Lab >as well. Now I'm even more certain that's a step >I need to take.I didn't find the normal great smokies tests showed anything for me - the liver, stool and hair analysis all looked normal - it was their genovations genetic tests that were quite helpful - if you wanted them to test for interleukin RN or RA you might have to ask as sometimes they don't have the right reagents in to test for it.
>Fortunately I am able to tolerate all of the B vitamins and have been taking them fairly regularly. I think I may need to take them in better proportion though. What is R5P?R5P is riboflavin 5 phosphate, I seem to do better on the more active forms of B vitamin. If I don't feel the benefit of something, I tend not to take it, but have been quite lucky that I am sensitive, even to holding supplements. Riboflavin is important in glutathione metabolism. Came across something about B2 and thyroid.
B Complex Vitamins
Riboflavin. The universal redox coenzyme, flavinadenine dinucleotide FAD, functions as a redox agentin the oxidation of succinate by mitochondria, and as acofactor for cytochrome P450 detoxication enzymes. Thyroid hormone status is reported to be sensitive to riboflavin status. Female acute psychiatric patients with riboflavin deficiency had significantly lower thyroxine levels. Drug exposure did not correlate with thyroxine levels (13). Many factors affect brain function and the endocrine system and psychiatric problems undoubtedly involve a variety of biochemical pathways
>I have methionine here at home that I should finish up. Again, I couldn't tell any difference when taking it. Perhaps I should try it with lysine. Then when those are used up, I'll switch to TMG and B12 as I'm sure that would be a better overall combination.I'm interested in methionine because of cell membrane phospholipids requiring methylation and also genetic switching. There are some reports about autoimmune disease sufferers not being able to switch off inflammatory genes, so am interested in what nutrition might do it. Arginine and lysine residues on parts of the DNA called histones are either methylated, acetylated or phosphorylated. Vitamin A seems important in genetic swtiching (seems to be better derived form fish oil) and butyrate seems to help too, but making sure there's enough methyl donors, sufficient acetyl CoA, and energy for phosphorylation, seems important too...today I bought some lutein extract from marigold, and have found that reduces my fog too - some references to immune system gentic balancing too. See abstract below for methylation...
DNA methylation and autoimmune disease.
>I only feel a little bit of a stimulation on DLPA which I attributed to PEA but I didn't find that helped my depression or that I was able to concentrate better. I may not have been taking enough though or perhaps I do need to experiment with Norival and niacinamide. Thanks for the abstract. I'll read it after I send this message to you.
I have been taking 500mg of DLPA and it feels great (and the lutein is now feeling pretty good too!), but as I said, last year it was giving me a massive headache and I felt like I wanted to shout and scream too - was wary of taking it again! Not sure why it is wonderful now but did notice it felt even better when I took lipothiamine. Catecholamines can be detoxified through methylation and sulphation - doesn't dopamine get transported as dopamine sulphate?
>What amount of DLPA do you take? Do you feel at all wired or hyper on that dose or maybe just mildly stimulated? I'm trying to find solutions right now that won't tax my adrenal glands as I fear I have adrenal fatigue.Don't know what your TSH is like, but found some research that TSH can activate the adrenals - think the theory was that it's a compensation by the adrenals to support energy levels when the thyroid is underactive.
>Recently I've been feeling somewhat better and I wasn't sure why. The changes I made were adding maca and extra magnesium to my routine. The only other thing I changed was adding chromium although that was at least a couple of weeks back. I didn't see any change soon enough with the chromium and so never thought it could explain my improvement but now that I read your last paragraph, I'm wondering. Could it take at least two weeks to see it's effects? I'm definitely going to check out the Venocap herbs by Thorne Research. Thanks for the tip.
haven't looked into maca, how does it feel for you? Find working on the insulin receptor more effective for me than working on glucose tolerance with chromium - EPA/DHA, alpha lipoic acid, glutathione, soluble fibre and gymnema sylvestre/fenugreek are what seem to work OK. Some recent research found that insulin resistance pushed glycogen to cell surfaces and encouraged candida growth.
Hmmmm. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis so I bet the above pertains to me as well. If you don't mind what might be a dumb question: How does one oppose expression of interleukin 1?
No, nothing's dumb! The genetic balancing I mentioned before is one way I'm playing and another is inhibiting it's effect on cell membrane damage via the enzyme PLA2 (phospholipase A2) interleukin 1 triggers the release of PLA2, PLA2 breaks down cell membranes, releasing arachidonic acid, and starts an inflammatory cascade. EPA inhibits PLA2, apparently more effectively on it's own than with DHA. Have found I get on better with distilled fish oils, that get rid of toxic metal and residual arachidonic acid.
>Are you using "hyper-ex" to mean hypericin, hypericum or hyperforin? That's interesting to me that SJW helped you. Since it's more serotonergic, I don't generally associate it with helping with brain fog. Quite the contrary in fact.
Just looked, Thorne's hyper-ex is hypericum. I did take it for it's detoxification ability, so wasn't thinking how it worked with serotonin. Not sure how broad SJW's action is on cytochrome p450 enzymes, does it extend to cytochromes in the mitochondria and to heme too?
Found an article on depression and inflammation - that seems to be the core of what has helped me, doing everything I can to get inflammation down!
also found this with interleukin 1 and it's possible link with hashimoto's
http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/876/1/221
>Where do you get the two things you just mentioned? I have Monolaurin at home to try for immune support. It's a monoglyceride that's supposed to have anti-microbial properties. I haven't given it much of a trial yet though.
MCT is from thorne and it's medium chain diglycerides, including lauric acid, so might have a similar effect to monolaurin. There's a lot of debate on different websites as to whether MCT or coconut oil that it's derived from boosts or protects the thyroid. It does boost the metabolism - if that is by supporting the thyroid, I'm not sure. Lactoferrin I get from Jarrow, but cardiovascular research do it too. I think it works by pulling iron into a transport protein so that it's unavailable to bacteria and yeasts - some friends have used IP6 to fight their infections but it made them anaemic! Looking at the abstract below, lactoferrin is also anti inflammatory and describes a different mechanism for it's action..
Antimicrobial and immunoregulatory functions of lactoferrin and its potential therapeutic application.
>Also, I'm curious as to whether you read most or all of that long thread we had going here on brain fog. Sometimes we'd include some silliness as well as a lot of personal information in the posts. I wonder if all of that made it into the archives.
Didn't read all the thread....started to, but it seemed like I'd never get to the bottom!
Thanks for your comments, hope mine make some sense!Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 13:19:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 15:24:51
Hi Kara, was thinking about interleukin 1 and autoimmune disease again and remembered something about interleukin 1 stimulating ACTH and catecholamine release, overriding the normal feedback mechanisms. I was wondering if interleukin 1 pushes a person into adrenal exhaustion - and also if giving phenylalanine or tyrosine to such a person will be like adding fuel to a fire? Just trying to understand why my reaction to phenylalanine and tyrosine is so different now.
Anyway, here's an abstract about interleukin 1 and the catecholamines...
interleukin-1 alpha and -beta stimulate adrenocorticotropin and catecholamine release
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/6/3096
Posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 16:19:58
In reply to Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on June 23, 2004, at 23:06:51
Hi Kara, haven't quite got the hang of posting, think I might have replied to the wrong people!
Ray
Posted by KaraS on September 8, 2004, at 16:42:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 16:19:58
> Hi Kara, haven't quite got the hang of posting, think I might have replied to the wrong people!
>
> RayHi Ray,
I don't have time now to answer your posts. Ironically, though you mistakenly sent your last message to Larry, he's actually the one who could answer it. In fact, most of your questions he'd be the one to answer them. He knows a lot more than I do (as do you). I'm sure he'll get back to you soon. At any rate, I've enjoyed reading your posts and will reply more later.Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
> TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
This sort of thing mystifies me. I feel awful with some brands of B12, as well. I wish I had access to chromatography equipment. I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
> Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine?
I suppose that's a possible explanation.
> This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
That effect is partially mediated by low blood insulin. If you're hyperglycemic.....
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=Abstract
The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
> Have taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
>
> I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
> So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!Hmmmm.....I'll be think about this.....
> PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
> Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.I'm really glad you have pointed this out. Sometimes I just forget some key issues, and this is clearly one of those.
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too?Not that I'm aware of. It does induce p-glycoprotein.....oh, as you say....
> Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!
>
> RayKeep talking, dude.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
>The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..
Depression and biopterin
Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdfBiopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'
>I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
Thanks,
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
> Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
Oh, yeah. I like it when someone shows me where I'm missing pieces of the puzzle.
> >The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
>
> I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..How do you respond to tyrosine? The very same cofactors apply there, as well.
> Depression and biopterin
>
> Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
> http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdf
>
> Biopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14726806I love those "light-bulb moments". <grin> It's starting to make sense to me, why some people respond better to 5-HTP than to trytophan. They're already past the hydroxylase "bottleneck". I didn't even know there was such an enzymatic restriction, even in theory. Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
http://jms.ndmctsgh.edu.tw/PDF/2203095.pdf
If you paste the title of the following into google, and search with the quotation marks, you'll come to a full-text link (registration required, but free):
FACTA UNIVERSITATIS
Series: Medicine and Biology Vol.11, No 2, 2004, pp. 49 - 54 UC 577+61BIOCHEMICAL FUNCTIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE OF UNCONJUGATED PTERIDINES
Gordana Bjelaković1, Tatjana Jevtović-Stoimenov1, Bojko Bjelaković2, Ivana Stojanović1 1Institute of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš 2Clinic of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš, Serbia and Montenegro
Summary. Tetrahydrobiopterine (BH4) and its relatives are classified as unconjugated pteridines or pterins distinguishing them from the folates. BH4 is not a vitamin for mammals, since they can synthesize it. GTP is the major precursor of atoms in the pterin nucleus. The initial step in this pathway is conversion of GTP to D-erythro-7, 8-dihydroneopterin triphosphate, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme GTP-cyclohydrolase I (EC 3.5.4.16; GTP-CH). There are many important metabolic functions of BH4: it is a crucial cofactor in hydroxylation reactions of phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophane. The finding of BH4 participation in monoaminergic neurotransmitter metabolism regulation contributed to the knowledge of atipic neurological symptoms in some kinds of "phenylketonuric" children. As a cofactor of nitric oxide syntheses BH4 is a crucial metabolite involved in physiological function of cardiovascular system. The literature data confirm that the BH4 depletion is crucial in the control of both NO and superoxide generation (H2O2), synthesized by endothelial NOS isoforms, and consequently the formation of cell toxic peroxynitrite (ONOO −). Relationships between biosynthesis of BH4 and guanine nucleotide regulatory proteins (G proteins) or GTP-binding proteins taking part in protein synthesis has to be explained. The idea that all oxidases using molecular oxygen and producing H2O2 need BH4 appears rather relevant and it may explain more successfully the polyamine oxidase activity (PAO) in the regulation of polyamine metabolism.
> >Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
>
> Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
>
> 'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'Quite correct, upon closer examination. There was once thought to be an interchange between these two systems, probably because folate can serve as a less efficient cofactor for e.g. NO-synthase. It was believed that shunting between folate and H4-biopterin must be taking place. I see that is not the case. The death of another factoid. (Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
> >I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
>
> I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RayOK, the problem I see with biopterin defects (two real possibilities, one in de novo synthesis, the other in recycling of H2B back to H4B), is that H4B is both very poorly absorbed from the gut (some estimates at about 12%), and does not readily cross the blood-brain barrier. Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
Thanks for joining our little world, dude. Brains tend to work in synergy (sum greater than the parts), IMHO.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
>Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
Yes that sounds a good idea, although I seem to be doing amazingly well just upregulating the enzymes. Have you heard about the kynurenine pathway that breaks down tryptophan to niacin? Just wonder if people with autoimmune disease degrade a lot of tryptophan before it can get to 5-HTP as interferon gamma seems to trigger that pathway. It's interesting that this pathway has to be triggered in pregnancy, to stop the mother's immmune system rejecting the baby. Tryptophan metabolites at the start of the pathway seem to be neuroprotective, but as the pathway nears niacin, metabolites like quinolinic acid are highly neurotoxic - seems like niacin/naicinamide can provide negative feedback to this pathway.
>(Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
What a great word....might use it myself now too!!
how about Presidentoid?! Ooops that's a bit poilitical... but as I'm from the UK, maybe i should say Blairoid!>Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
I seem to do better on niacinamide rather than NADH - if fact I feel very little with NADH, which is surprising considering how important it is to the pathways we've been discussing. I'm guessing that maybe I need the large dose of niacinamide to inhibit the parp molecule I mentioned before. Parp seems to be involved in the pathogenesis of many diseases - for example this abstract finds that inhibiting parp can stop homocysteine induced blood vessel damage.
'Poly(ADP-Ribose) Polymerase Inhibition Prevents Homocysteine-Induced Endothelial Dysfunction in the Isolated Rat Aorta.'
and this is interesting too...
Thanks,
Ray
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