![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
> Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.
> OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
> using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
> "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
Was this a good book?
> Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
> yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".
> I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
> Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?
> "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>Hey, lucky you! ;)
>You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know. Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
> Hope this helps,
Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
JL
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
> > Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
>
> I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.My guess is some women need the cortisol etc. and some of the progesterone does convert to estrogen (if lucky), ..the conversion would be individual..I think I gave an example of one woman who appeared to convert a lot to estrogen. There are "typical" pathways followed and sometimes other pathways followed..it's individual.
Also you never know but there may be other thing are bodies use progesterone for...it makes sense to me..they just haven't discovered it as yet. The known stuff here is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
That's why I really like to hear/read of folk's individual experiences..they are real
I've found that most women who have success with progesterone, usually cycle it..like days 12 to 26..and only take for a few months at a time.
Most unsuccessful take constantly for over a year...probably their cortisol levels just build up too high after this..then they start showing signs of cushings>
> > OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> > Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> > If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>
>
> One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
>
> > using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
>
> > "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
>
> Was this a good book?Well it's a couple of years since I read it. I liked it at the time, as I had always thought my hormonal levels should be treated instead of just being handed out AD's ..but docs are scared of estrogen, due to cancer etc, and for some reason seem to think antiD's are akin to jelly beans for women <g>
I used to find them difficult to tolerate.
I think I like this book at the time as it was agreeing with what I had always suspected for me, that if you get the hormonal levels corrected the depression will lift, or at least his patients could then respond more normally to the antiD's.>
> > Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
>
> That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
>
> > yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
> I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".well some people have too low cortisol..where the stress has lasted a long time usually
>
> > I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
>
> > Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
>
> I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?<g>..yes, it works. I haven't tried the type they buy though. It's popular in France and Germany...has been for a long time.
>
> > "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>
>
> Hey, lucky you! ;)guess we all have to work within limits
>
> >You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know.None of the companies I contacted would say..the best answer I got was ..whatever is cheapest at the time
Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
>
> > Hope this helps,
Thanks, re DHEA I haven't tried....probably will start next weekend. Both DHEA and progesterone are only available under doc's scripts over here..
>
> Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
>
> JL
>
Jan
Posted by EscherDementian on October 13, 2003, at 1:52:23
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
tealady, Thank you, Thank you again for your informed and generous info. and directions for looking.
Forgive this "lurker"'s butt-in, here, but i had to thank you.
My PMHNP mentioned female hormones thrice while we were trying to balance my out-of-whack cortisol and depression, but never followed through with a proposed solution or more info. before she abandoned me to a referral away.
Are we twins, afterall? Are you my PMHNP's reversed 'Shadow' in the CJung sense?
i have much to study and look into, ThankYou for your directed light.Escher
P.S. much more focused nowadays. Thanx for being there when i was still ranting.
Posted by Ron Jones on October 15, 2003, at 14:50:40
In reply to 5-HTP, posted by Penny on September 4, 2003, at 13:32:53
I hate 5htp .It could not take it.Fish oil and inositol is much better.
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 21, 2003, at 20:20:55
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by EscherDementian on October 13, 2003, at 1:52:23
To those who have confusions and concerns about hormones, you are right, they are confusing and of great concern. Please do yourself a favor and get tested. You won't get these tests from your primary care doc and will probably have to go to a naturopath. My saliva tests pointed out a very imbalanced hormone profile, even though I had been taking oral 'natural' estiol and progesterone. Yes, yes I know that Elizabeth Vliet doesn't believe in saliva tests, but I don't have confidence in her conclusions either. Both she and Dr. Lee are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and even though I appreciate the work Dr. Vliet has done on the connections between estrogen and neurochemical synthesis, I believe she is doing potential harm in pushing estrogen. Dr. Lee's views are one-sided and evangelistic but I do agree with him that we're not paying enough attention to the dangerous fact of estrogen dominance. Progesterone excess can make us depressed and fat, but estrogen excess can kill us - and make us anxious and fat. Our world is full of xenoestrogens - just look at the poor male 'gators in the Florida swamplands morphing into female 'gators. Maybe that's a natural checks and balances for over-population in a toxic world, who knows. Our bodies at perimenopause are estrogen dominant, a wrong balance of hormone therapies can make our estrogen/progesterone ratios too high.
Happened to me and I spent 2 miserable months in a drastic precancerous endometrial hyperplasia shedding fright because my cookie cutter standard dose of oral natural hormones were way off - too high a ratio of estrogen. Even after this happened, my ob/gyn would not order tests for my baseline levels or to monitor me henceforth, saying the blood tests weren't accurate.
My naturopath, bless her heart, is working miracles on my mind and body. She takes the time and treats my unique medical issues with great knowledge and wisdom and she knows her stuff. I am firmly convinced that the majority of managed care physicians sadly do not and are doing many of us great harm.
I'm now taking transdermal bi-est (estradiol and estriol), progesterone, DHEA, and testosterone. As far as the estrogens not absorbing, my compounding pharmacy recently switched to a new carrier cream and it no longer sits on my skin like the other goo. Something is getting where it belongs since my levels are balancing nicely.
With something like hormones it's like playing with a loaded gun trying to spec out what we may or may not need. We want to believe the research and ads about DHEA, we want to try the progesterone cream from the health store. We just want to feel better so we do the research and try to sift through the many opinions. We may hit it right with our self-trials, but more often we don't and end up sicker and poorer. For example, DHEA sounds so promising but DHEA can be converted to estrogens or testosterone depending on many factors, one of which is cortisol level. Estrogen influences thyroid hormone and vice versa, and ALL of it is controlled way upline by the hypothalamus/pituitary. Oral estrogen unfortunately interfere with the production of Human Growth Hormone, which is produced by the pituitary and is a major part of the signalling hormonal feedback loop of the HPA-axis. Such a tangled web.
With all the info out there it's easy to get lost. My experience, notwithstanding Dr. Vliet's opinion, is that saliva tests are very sensitive and will put you on the right track. Perhaps you want to go solo and monitor things on your own while undergoing your own regime. Consider monitoring your levels and progress by getting saliva tests sent to your home. You don't need a doctor's prescription (unless you live in California). You might be surprised at what you find out. Visit http://www.salivatest.com. Its the lab my naturopath uses. There's alot of real good info on the site about hormones in general. Even if you are receiving the standard formulary dose of hormone replacment and not getting your levels monitored, might be worthwhile shelling out the bucks and being proactive about your progress. There's too much at stake here, not only the cancer connection, but our hormonal balance is the missing link in our mood disorders. Why the medical profession at large isn't getting this is mind boggling. Take care, y'all. - BCat
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:20:30
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
Sorry for the delay in replying, been busy trying to pull my life together...a more than full time job! :)
> My guess is some women need the cortisol etc. and some of the progesterone does convert to estrogen (if lucky), ..the conversion would be individual...
I had one day on the progesterone where I felt a definite boost of energy. I hauled my bike out of the basement and took it for a spin. First time in many years! I thought, great, this is going to work as increased energy was one of the benefits touted...but it was only the one day that I felt that. Then I felt worse again. Very disappointing.
> > > yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
> well some people have too low cortisol..where the stress has lasted a long time usuallyAside from "The Cortisol Connection" I haven't read much about cortisol, but the carb craving certainly jibes with my experience. If you have any sites handy about cortisol, I'd appreciate them.
> > > Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".Hmm...but estradiol is the one indicated in breast cancer, isn't it? What type does Larrian recommend when she recommends estrogen? (I joined her webpage, but can't afford the pay part of it.)
> <g>..yes, it works. I haven't tried the type they buy though. It's popular in France and Germany...has been for a long time.What type have you tried?
> None of the companies I contacted would say..the best answer I got was ..whatever is cheapest at the time.
I notice that the Beyond a Century site has magnesium glycinate in the bulk form and the price looks good -- maybe even good enough to justify the overseas shipping for you (if they do overseas shipping). When I run out of my current stash of magnesium, I am going to try their's.
> Thanks, re DHEA I haven't tried....probably will start next weekend. Both DHEA and progesterone are only available under doc's scripts over here..Have you started, how's it going?
JL
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:28:28
In reply to Re: female hormones, posted by BarbaraCat on October 21, 2003, at 20:20:55
>Even if you are receiving the standard formulary dose of hormone replacment and not getting your levels monitored, might be worthwhile shelling out the bucks and being proactive about your progress. There's too much at stake here, not only the cancer connection, but our hormonal balance is the missing link in our mood disorders. Why the medical profession at large isn't getting this is mind boggling. Take care, y'all. - BCat
I agree that doctor's are mostly missing the boat when it comes to hormonal connections to mood disorders...just as they are frequently missing the nutritional connections too. So, what ARE we paying them for? ;)
I'm sure you're right about the testing (thanks for the link) but it's out of the question for me right now financially. That's one of the things I like about DHEA -- it's not very expensive.
Posted by oreilledemouche on October 27, 2003, at 11:42:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:20:30
ouais, mais pour le progestérone les conditions de prélèvement sont le prélèvement de sang veineux (en général au pli du coude). Il n'est pas nécessaire d'être à jeun. Il faut par contre préciser l'âge et la date des dernières règles, le nombre de semaines d'aménorrhée en cas de grossesse.
Quant à l'intérêt du dosage, la progestérone est une hormone produite par le corps jaune en deuxième phase du cycle menstruel, par le corps jaune gravidique puis par le placenta au cours de la grossesse. Son rôle est de préparer l'utérus à la nidation, puis de préparer la glande mammaire à la lactation. Son dosage permet en cours de grossesse, de refléter l'activité placentaire. En dehors de ce cadre, la progestérone sera dosée dans l'exploration de troubles hormonaux Elle est également utile pour la fécondation in vitro.
Bonne chance, tealady et JLx. Je vous embrasse tres fort!
Posted by JLx on October 27, 2003, at 16:02:16
In reply to female hormones » tealady » JLx, posted by oreilledemouche on October 27, 2003, at 11:42:32
> ouais, mais pour le progestérone les conditions de prélèvement sont le prélèvement de sang veineux (en général au pli du coude). Il n'est pas nécessaire d'être à jeun. Il faut par contre préciser l'âge et la date des dernières règles, le nombre de semaines d'aménorrhée en cas de grossesse.
>
> Quant à l'intérêt du dosage, la progestérone est une hormone produite par le corps jaune en deuxième phase du cycle menstruel, par le corps jaune gravidique puis par le placenta au cours de la grossesse. Son rôle est de préparer l'utérus à la nidation, puis de préparer la glande mammaire à la lactation. Son dosage permet en cours de grossesse, de refléter l'activité placentaire. En dehors de ce cadre, la progestérone sera dosée dans l'exploration de troubles hormonaux Elle est également utile pour la fécondation in vitro.
>
> Bonne chance, tealady et JLx. Je vous embrasse tres fort!I don't speak French, unfortunately, but this is what came up on Alta Vista's Babel Fish Translation:
"ouais, but for progesterone the conditions of taking away are the taking away of venous blood (in general with the fold of the elbow). It is not necessary to be to jeun. It is on the other hand necessary to specify the age and the date of the last rules, the number of weeks of amenorrhoea in the event of pregnancy. As for the interest of proportioning, the progesterone is a hormone produced by the yellow body in second phase of the menstrual cycle, by the yellow body gravidic then by the placenta during the pregnancy. Its role is to prepare the uterus with nidation, then to prepare the gland mammaire with lactation. Its proportioning allows in the course of pregnancy, to reflect the placental activity. Apart from this framework, the progesterone will be proportioned in the exploration of hormonal disorders It is also useful for the in vitro fertilization. Good luck, tealady and JLx. I kiss you very extremely!"
Hmm...that's not too clear, but anyway, thanks! :)
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 17:56:12
In reply to Re: female hormones » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:28:28
Be real careful with DHEA. It sounded like a good idea to my husband and me as well. Unfortunately, his was converting to estradiol instead of testosterone. Bummer. According to tests I needed it, but I was deficient in testosterone and the DHEA was converting to estrogen, further adding to my excess. I was just hoping to balance things out but for both of us it made things worse. Even more unpredictable is pregnenolone, so-called 'mother of hormones'. Again, sounds like a magic bullet but it's not and is very erratic in what it converts to down-line.
Here's a very informative link about cortisol, maybe more than you want to know. I'm digesting it very slowly so haven't gotten to the end. Perhaps you're looking for something specifically related to hormones and cortisol in which case, probably just do a web engine search on estrogen+cortisol or progesterone+cortisol or something like that. - Barbara
Posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 17:56:12
Thanks for the link, interesting discussion.
I wish I COULD work with a knoweledgeable doctor, and get tested but it's not possible right now. I am without a job or any income whatsoever, surviving on food stamps and charity from my parents, about to have my house foreclosed, etc. I hate guessing at all this, but health care, except by my own efforts, is a luxury I can't afford.
I stopped taking DHEA for a couple months when I started supplementing with magnesium, boron, eating better, etc. because I felt good enough. Then my mood dropped precipitously at the same time that I had pee dripping down my legs when I got up in the morning and my breasts seemed kind of deflated. I also had a period for the first time in 4-5 months. I was reading the natural progesterone books I mentioned earlier on this thread and decided to try progesterone -- Progest-E drops that you use sublingually. I think I inadvertently took too much at first, but then cut it down considerably as I experimented more successfully squeezing out that "3 mg drop". Aside from that one day when I had a burst of energy -- something I usually lack -- I felt rotten, worse as I went along (tried it for about 2 weeks), like I had PMS (irritable, craving carbs, swollen, tender breastst, etc.) so I quit taking it and felt better almost immediately.
Later I resumed the 25 mg/day of DHEA. Now, I've added amino acids and some other things to my daily supplement mix...and I suspect things are chaning hormonally again. DHEA used to give me a libido boost, for instance, but now less so. Now I'm experimenting with the DHEA every other day.
Here's an interesting thing -- to me anyway! ;) The Progest-E nearly cleared up my rosacea....and so does taurine. Taurine blocks or somehow mediates estrogen, I've read somewhere, and perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's related to stress somehow, as stress is related to rosacea, and taurine is calming.
I'm feeling pretty good on my latest regimen, but I can tell that as some things get "righted" some others get out of whack. I don't sleep as well as I used to before I added tyrosine and I'm having the devil of a time figuring out a good magnesium/calcium ratio which I suspect is related to the sleeping. I used to always be a nightowl, who needed 8 hours sleep, until in my 40's when I started sleeping less and/or wildly irregularly. My understanding is that sleep before midnight is more valuable than after so now I force myself to go to bed very early, which has felt good until lately when I am wake up periodically throughout the night. I'm also having these weird hot/cold fluctuations (like mini and mild hot flashes/chills), both at night and during the day. Nor have I had a period for a few months now.
Not sure where cortisol might fit in to that whole picture but I certainly WISH I had the kind of energy that I had that one day. (If you have any thoughts or insights, they'd be most welcome.)
> Be real careful with DHEA. It sounded like a good idea to my husband and me as well. Unfortunately, his was converting to estradiol instead of testosterone. Bummer. According to tests I needed it, but I was deficient in testosterone and the DHEA was converting to estrogen, further adding to my excess. I was just hoping to balance things out but for both of us it made things worse. Even more unpredictable is pregnenolone, so-called 'mother of hormones'. Again, sounds like a magic bullet but it's not and is very erratic in what it converts to down-line.
>
> Here's a very informative link about cortisol, maybe more than you want to know. I'm digesting it very slowly so haven't gotten to the end. Perhaps you're looking for something specifically related to hormones and cortisol in which case, probably just do a web engine search on estrogen+cortisol or progesterone+cortisol or something like that. - Barbara
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031015/msgs/269703.html
Posted by loolot on October 28, 2003, at 10:38:40
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
I read in one study about hypoadrenal function that patients who had less cortisol actually had more DHEA in their blood. So taking DHEA may be misleading. It might be better to supplement with cortisol? Im guessing.
Ill try to find the article and post it
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
Licorice is one of the best adrenal tonifiers around. Not the stringy crap but the real thing. There's been some bad press about licorice raising blood pressure. That seems to be true only with American licorice and should be avoided. The kind you want is European (glycyrryiza glabra) or Asian (glycyrrhiza uralensis). You might have to go online to find it. If you can get licorice extract all the better. Wise Woman Herbals puts out a good one and 1/4 teaspoon per day is a great adrenal support, boosts DHEA levels and regulates cortisol up or down.
As for DHEA being inversely proportional to cortisol, that's what I've noticed too - my husband whose cortisol is very low has normal DHEA, and my DHEA is very low but my cortisol is normal. But really, if you could spring $150 for the saliva test (ZRT Laboratories is the best I've found), you'd know the state of your cortisol, DHEA and sex hormones and save yourself alot of time, frustration and money. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 8:20:37
In reply to Licorice and adrenals » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
> Licorice is one of the best adrenal tonifiers around. Not the stringy crap but the real thing. There's been some bad press about licorice raising blood pressure. That seems to be true only with American licorice and should be avoided. The kind you want is European (glycyrryiza glabra) or Asian (glycyrrhiza uralensis). You might have to go online to find it. If you can get licorice extract all the better. Wise Woman Herbals puts out a good one and 1/4 teaspoon per day is a great adrenal support, boosts DHEA levels and regulates cortisol up or down.
Licorice blocks the breakdown of cortisol, and inhibits testosterone synthesis. It's indicated for adrenal fatigue, but I wouldn't use it for adrenal excess.
See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021108/msgs/126943.html
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 2, 2003, at 11:12:01
In reply to Re: Licorice and adrenals » BarbaraCat, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 8:20:37
> Licorice blocks the breakdown of cortisol, and inhibits testosterone synthesis. It's indicated for adrenal fatigue, but I wouldn't use it for adrenal excess.
>
**Thanks Larry. I didn't know about the testosterone thing. Goes to show how taking anything based on heresay of desired benefits can have anything but the desired effect. I think about all the claims made for very powerful OTC hormonal substances like melatonin, DHEA, progesterone creams, phytoestrogen supplements and how many people are taking them on trust without getting any baseline hormonal values. Not a good thing. Thanks for your input. - Barbara
Posted by loolot on November 2, 2003, at 15:13:40
In reply to Licorice and adrenals » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
Is that a home test? Do those work? I have thought about trying that
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 2, 2003, at 15:50:41
In reply to Home cortisol tests » BarbaraCat, posted by loolot on November 2, 2003, at 15:13:40
> Is that a home test? Do those work? I have thought about trying that
**They work quite well. I've only done the tests through naturopaths but they're easy to do and interpret for home use. The one she uses is ZRT Laboratores and you can order them yourself for your own monitoring. Here's the website again:
Posted by morel1 on December 27, 2003, at 17:37:02
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 17:47:49
Just a concern but i read that tryptophan can cause bladder cancer and/or run a risk of developing diabetes if it runs your family anyone heard of this
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2003, at 10:05:48
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by morel1 on December 27, 2003, at 17:37:02
> Just a concern but i read that tryptophan can cause bladder cancer and/or run a risk of developing diabetes if it runs your family anyone heard of this
There were some clues that linked tryptophan metabolic products (via the kynurenine pathway) to bladder cancer recurrence (not causing cancer, promoting recurrence), but that was later found to be due to genetic inability to process vitamin B6 (pyridoxine), or to deficiency in B6. I see no evidence that tryptophan is a risk factor for bladder cancer.
The relationship between tryptophan (serotonin) metabolism and diabetes is inverted to what you suggest. Diabetes disrupts serotonin synthesis, rather than tryptophan inducing diabetes.
Lar
Posted by Brown_cow on January 7, 2004, at 16:19:58
In reply to 5-HTP, posted by Penny on September 4, 2003, at 13:32:53
I don't think anyone should take Kava Kava ... it made me feel like poop first of all and I read that it can easily damage your liver.
I do like 5-HTP and think it works too, but the tendency for self prescribed herbal meds is to over-prescribe. DON'T DO THAT!
Large doses of 5-HTP should be avoided as it can result in the formation of excessively high levels of serotonin in tissues other than the brain, resulting in significant adverse reactions.
5-HTP should not be taken concurrently with anti-depressants except under the supervision of a physician, because 5-HTP increases the activity of these drugs.
This defeats the purpose by subjecting your body to too much serotonin and also making you too sleepy to feel good. It can produce side effects which make you feel more wacky than you are. :D
That's why I play online video games these days. adrenaline rush here I come!
Posted by april8 on May 1, 2004, at 9:23:53
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 9:05:39
I have read that some people respond to 5 htp and others respond well to Trytophan. So you may be one of the people who responds to Trytophan. it is worth checking out, seriously.
There is a book called the mood cure that has info in it about both and the difference. Trytophan is much more expensive, but that doesnt' mean not worth a try!
Posted by Teknohead on May 15, 2004, at 6:59:38
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by april8 on May 1, 2004, at 9:23:53
Tryptophan not only converts into serotonin but lots of other tryptamines aswell - including your own natural DMT! 5-HTP only converts into serotonin. Read Patrik Holford's "Natural Highs" book.
Posted by BarbaraCat on May 16, 2004, at 16:04:06
In reply to 5-HTP, posted by Penny on September 4, 2003, at 13:32:53
My two cents. 5-htp made my depression and anxiety worse. Trytophan had an immediate anti-anxiety effect, helped sleep but most telling was the difference it made in fibromyalgia pain and muscle cramping. I don't have the particulars on the subject but found out that 5-htp goes directly to brain serotonin and bypasses the conversion step that effects serotonin receptors in the gut and muscles.
Thanks for the bulk source, Larry Hoover. I get my 500mg capsules of veterinary pharm grade from www.biochemicals.com but I think this horsey brand is alot cheaper! - BarbaraCat
Posted by LOOPS on May 17, 2004, at 20:01:07
In reply to 5-HTP vs. tryp? Tryp!!! » Penny, posted by BarbaraCat on May 16, 2004, at 16:04:06
Tryptophan is presently being a life-saver. The difference I felt was deep. I never got this much relief with 5-htp - in fact with 5htp I would get tired and irritable.
I would say tryptohphan should probably be combined with a few other key nutrients to get maximum relief/positive results.
I don't know why this stuff isn't more widely available.
Loops
Posted by BarbaraCat on May 18, 2004, at 16:02:19
In reply to tryptophan better again, posted by LOOPS on May 17, 2004, at 20:01:07
> I don't know why tryptophan isn't more widely available.
>
**Back in the late 80's there was an attempt by Denko Pharmaceuticals to hurry along the fermenting procedure by which tryp is made by doing some DNA splicing. This process caused a condition called Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome — EMS. It was only a relatively small batch and the procedure was banned but it killed some people. Since then tryp is back to being produced the old safe way, but the public and FDA never recovered from the scare and tryp was taken off the shelves and banned for human use. This all happened just around the time SSRI's were the new wonder drug - coindidence? I think not. Getting it from vet supplies is about the only way outside of a compounding pharmacy prescription to get it.I've been doing research on tryp for some time and it's much more crucial to enzyme and cellular functioning than just serotonin production in the brain. 5-HTP bypasses an important precursor step and completely misses the point of tryp's many functions. Most sources say that 'it's just as good if not better than tryptophan'. T'aint so.
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