![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 51 to 75 of 123. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:40:50
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 2, 2011, at 1:54:27
> I don't know that there's any way to actually prevent someone from doing that, other than to simply not participate in anything. I suppose that it doesn't matter whether it's online or IRL, if someone wants to invest the energy into collecting information about others, they can do it within the limits of the law.
What are you saying Phillipa did? I thought the topic of conversation was items sent to Phillipa by email or posted publicly on the board. Are you accusing Phillipa of searching the internet for information on others? I don't see anyplace on board where that is being said. Is someone spreading gossip off board about Phillipa?
> That said, it would feel very creepy to me to find out someone is keeping a file and collecting information about me.
I keep photos sent to me by email, and emails sent to me. I also might bookmark items on occasion, if Babblers have posted links to them. I may even arrange those photos, emails, and links into folders. I like a tidy computer. I routinely keep things friends send me because I care about them. I'm sorry you find my behavior creepy.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:51:08
In reply to Re: Why haven't you left this in babblemail? » jane d, posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 6:49:55
> Because I think it is something that PB needs to know. If she has my files/information then she possibly has others. I know that at one point she had a lot of files on people. I didn't dig through the archives.
You responded to a post over three years old on not one, but two boards.
Your have now stated that your goal is not simply to ask that she get rid of any information she has about you, that you sent her freely, but to make everyone on Babble aware of your charges against her. To warn them. Is it possible that Phillipa sees herself as having equally benign motives for passing on information to others? Whatever your motives, your actions are that of someone spreading information, true or false, about another person.
You've made your point. Repeatedly.
Incidentally, if following site guidelines and avoiding blocks is important to you, a way to warn others without violating civility guidelines might be to say.
"I advise everyone to be very careful with information you don't wish to be public. Don't post it on board and don't send it to others. Emails are no more private than the board. Posters can and do pass on information in emails. If privacy is important to you, be careful what you post on board, send babblemails rather than emails, and don't send anything to another babbler that you wouldn't want known on board."
That is not only unexceptional, it's also completely true. I could endorse a statement like that. Depending on context, perhaps.
You say your pdoc is reading. Does he ever address your behavior? Or just the behavior of others. When I bring in posts, my therapist is always one to address my behavior before he addresses the behavior of others.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:58:21
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » ou812, posted by SLS on January 3, 2011, at 20:41:22
Scott, are you ok? I know this is a difficult time for you.
It's not really like what I know of you to make posts like the ones you've made on this thread. Particularly since they are based, according to you, not on anything you have experienced personally with Phillipa, but on gossip. I try not to listen to gossip. Not even gossip about gossip.
((( Scott )))
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:02:47
In reply to Re: Why haven't you left this in babblemail?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:51:08
When I say context, I would mean that I wouldn't endorse going to every thread by Phillipa and posting a comment like that. It would be disconcerting to me to have someone following me around the board making comments on my posts, even if they were not uncivil but merely repetitive or pointed. I wouldn't like to see someone else in a situation I'd find disconcerting.
But by itself I'd endorse the statement.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:07:51
In reply to Re: public forum, posted by ou812 on January 4, 2011, at 20:57:13
Bullying is a topic dear to my heart. It's heartening to see it get the attention it deserves, finally.
When I was young, teachers generally just told me that if I wouldn't let it upset me, the kids would stop doing it. That kids would be kids.
It's ridiculous. I'd have liked to see if "teachers will be teachers" would fly in the teachers lounge if they were met in their employment by the same abuse and harassment that kids are met with in their "employment" of school.
I hold teachers, school administration, employers, and site administration to be responsible for providing an environment that is vigilant and timely in discouraging bullying.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:22:28
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » violette, posted by Phillipa on January 2, 2011, at 12:54:50
Phillipa, there are some general rules of internet etiquette. Not following those rules can cause a lot of anger.
One is that you don't publicly publish emails of others. Even if it seems like spam, it may be spam that is cc'd to innocents. Please be careful not to post emails, certainly not to post headers of emails, and in general not to post any information that was sent to you in a nonpublic manner.
Another is that you not send information received by you privately to others, either publicly or privately. I think I'd go so far as to not send photos or anything that was publicly published on Babble. Even if the photos were public at one time, the photos may have subsequently been removed from links, which makes it personal to those with whom it was originally shared. I think it's ok to send links to posts that contain links to photos. You're then just sending public information, posts, which are available to anyone including the sendee.
We're an affiliative species and it's natural to wish to talk about others. I think if talking about other people was removed from conversations, a heck of a lot less conversing would go on. It's natural to want to share information out of concern for someone going through a hard time, or interest in someone who is in some way interesting, or to warn people about the behavior of others. I'm not sure where that natural inclination turns to "gossip". Perhaps it's in the eyes of the beholder.
But I'd advise you to be wise. I wouldn't tell you to trust no one. There are a handful of people I trust, and one or two I trust completely. But for the most part, remember that any information you send to others can and possibly will be sent by them to others. If they send you information, don't pass it on. If you send them information, assume it will be passed on and interpreted in whatever ways the sender wishes. It will probably not be sent on in context. It's ok to engage in the activity of talking about others. You'd be a singular person if your discussions were never about acquaintances. But try not to say anything that you wouldn't want plastered on Babble or on the front page of the NY Times. Be kind. Be discreet.
That's advice I'd give to EVERYONE.
Posted by Willful on January 5, 2011, at 10:26:57
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Solstice, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:40:50
I dont think seeing Phillipa as a poor victim, who needs defenders to champion her cause, is either true or what she needs in this situation.
I'm sorry you were bullied as an adolescent, Dinah. I can see that this was a very traumatic experienced that must have shaped some important elements in your negative self-image. I certainly regret that you had to go through that. But I don't think it's relevant here. And Phillipa is a grown women. She shows, as far as I can see, remarkably little concern or remorse for having upset people here when incidents arise. Perhaps she is privately regretful, but she is very airy in her dismissals and claims of being too busy to be concerned about what's being said. I wish she would earnestly address and consider what's being said.
If she did, I"m sure all this would have been cleared up long ago. But her seeming unconcern may be causing people to feel that she has no intention to change-- and no sense of the damage she may have done.
What exactly she has done-- I don't know-- but I do know for my own fact, that she has done things of this sort in the past. I'm not discussing anything that hasn't been mentioned here at the time-- but quite clearly the activities may be imagined not to have stopped.
Willful
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 10:46:57
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » SLS, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:58:21
Thank you Dinah.
Things with me are in flux.
I really don't feel comfortable or confident with my behavior along this thread. It just doesn't feel right to me. I won't abandon all of my concerns regarding the issues that have been uncovered here, but I am sure I could have been more moderate in my posture.
I tried to qualify my reactions in my first post along this thread as a preface to the statements I was about to make. I wrote, "Folks here demonstrate a more sober, contemplative, and compassionate deliberation of this situation than I would if I discovered that my email address and other personal information were disseminated indiscriminately"
I guess I should have waited until this preface would have been unnecessary. I don't know. I admire people here who are more tolerant and compassionate than I am. I am still working on balance.
Life is still a learning process for me. I hope it always will be.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:49:40
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Willful on January 5, 2011, at 10:26:57
You are making the assumption that she isn't hurt.
I don't think that's a true assumption.
Some people respond to hurt with words. Some people respond with actions of self harm and suicidal actions. Some people respond by holding on to what they can of their dignity. I can't tell you the number of people who think I'm cold because I put up a shield to defend myself against hurt. Because at some level I believed what my teachers said. That if I don't show pain, they'll stop. Which isn't true either. Nothing will make them stop. Not showing pain and not withholding pain. NOTHING I CAN DO WILL MAKE THEM STOP.
Grown people aren't capable of being hurt? I hurt. I hurt when people make assumptions about my feelings. I hurt when people make accusations about me that I feel unable to counter.
Not everyone is good with words expressing their feelings. Not everyone self injures and tells everyone when they are hurt. Is the hurt of those who suffer in silence less? My experience on Babble has been that it may be thought so. I have often wondered whether this would continue so blatantly if Phillipa talked about injuring herself in response. Linehan points out that sometimes self injury works.
But I'm not just defending Phillipa. Whether or not she needs it. I'm defending myself from having to witness threads like this. Dr. Bob is sure not protecting me from it.
And in hte end I am as powerless as I ever was in middle school. Nothing I say will stop Maxime and you and others making assumptions and talking how you want about a fellow human being who deserves more. Yes DESERVES more, by virtue of being a fellow human being. NOTHING I CAN DO WILL MAKE YOU AND MAXIME AND THE OTHERS STOP DOING THIS TO PHILLIPA.
I'm not sure if you were here when a blocked poster came to babble and started talking about me and Dr. Bob eating the genitals of my recently deceased and much loved dog. When the poster I thought it likely to be was returned to babble, and seemed not to be getting any responses, do you know what I did? I posted to that poster as I would to a poster in distress. And do you know why? That poster was a human being. Human beings deserve kindness and respect for no more than being human beings.
Phillipa deserves to be treated with the same respect that other Babblers deserve. Are we going to start looking at Babbler's lives to see whether they have acted in such a way as to earn respect and kindness here?
Dr. Bob is not providing a safe place for Phillipa. I can't stand being here without doing anything. Yet I can't do anything that will in any way help. That makes me want to self injure. I am crying and shaking and can't stop. I can't be at a Babble like this.
Posted by maxime on January 5, 2011, at 11:06:13
In reply to Re: Why haven't you left this in babblemail?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:51:08
> Incidentally, if following site guidelines and avoiding blocks is important to you, a way to warn others without violating civility guidelines might be to say.
>
> "I advise everyone to be very careful with information you don't wish to be public. Don't post it on board and don't send it to others. Emails are no more private than the board. Posters can and do pass on information in emails. If privacy is important to you, be careful what you post on board, send babblemails rather than emails, and don't send anything to another babbler that you wouldn't want known on board."
>
> That is not only unexceptional, it's also completely true. I could endorse a statement like that. Depending on context, perhaps.
>
> You say your pdoc is reading. Does he ever address your behavior? Or just the behavior of others. When I bring in posts, my therapist is always one to address my behavior before he addresses the behavior of others.
>
>Dinah, you are right. I could have worded it the way you did.
Yes, my pdoc is reading. He has commented on some of the post I have made and we talk about it.
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 11:08:15
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Solstice, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 9:40:50
> > I don't know that there's any way to actually prevent someone from doing that, other than to simply not participate in anything. I suppose that it doesn't matter whether it's online or IRL, if someone wants to invest the energy into collecting information about others, they can do it within the limits of the law.
> What are you saying Phillipa did? I thought the topic of conversation was items sent to Phillipa by email or posted publicly on the board. Are you accusing Phillipa of searching the internet for information on others?
Dinah.. I am not aware of my saying anything about Phillipa doing anything. It might be helpful for you to point out specifically what I said that led you to interpret what I said as an accusation against Phillipa. I was responding in a very general way to Maxime's concerns by pointing out that it's not that hard to collect information about people because of the www, if that's what they want to do. And unless they do something illegal with it, there's nothing one can do to stop someone from collecting information. I'm a little hurt that you would interpret me in such a negative way.
As for my experience with Phillipa - I personally have received only a single babblemail from her. It was a supportive and caring expression that appeared to be prompted by a thread where someone was giving me some grief. Phillipa did not solicit anything from me (real name, photos, private email addy, etc.) She also did not pass any information about anyone else on to me. She didn't ask for a response, and I didn't respond as there was no need.
> I don't see anyplace on board where that is being said. Is someone spreading gossip off board about Phillipa?I wouldn't know. I have not had any off-board communication with anyone about Phillipa, and it is not in my nature to engage in communications of that type.
> > That said, it would feel very creepy to me to find out someone is keeping a file and collecting information about me.
> I keep photos sent to me by email, and emails sent to me. I also might bookmark items on occasion, if Babblers have posted links to them. I may even arrange those photos, emails, and links into folders. I like a tidy computer. I routinely keep things friends send me because I care about them. I'm sorry you find my behavior creepy.Dinah, it really hurts to read this. I do exactly the same thing you're describing above - and I think most people who have even the slightest computer savvy do the same. And my statement about collection of information and keeping a file on me being creepy was interpreted out-of-context.
I'll elaborate. About eight years ago I was stalked for at least a year by someone who I'd met and was initially interesting to me. After a few months, this woman's interest in me was feeling weird to me, so I backed away. Before it was over, this person had a diary of her observations of my comings and goings (she was watching my house!), phone records she'd taken from my mailbox, and had managed to get into my email account (by spending a LOT of time guessing possible passwords), and forwarded my email exchanges with other people to herself. She knew where my daughter took dance, and showed up at an advertised studio dance recital. I was in the audience and didn't see her. She sat in the back and at some point caught my young daughter and told her "I will never be out of your life." I was petrified! I got the local police (small town) involved and was fortunate enough to have an acquaintance who was the lead detective for, among other things, 'internet crimes.' Before it was over with, this woman provided him with two three inch binders of information she'd collected on me! This was stuff I had NOT given her, but because she was extremely internet/computer savvy and had lots of time, and had stolen things from my mailbox and broke into my email account, she had quite a lot. She had pages and pages of documents tracking my internet movements.Now THAT is creepy - and I challenge anyone to argue with it. When I said collecting information and keeping a file was creepy - I was NOT talking about someone having a file on their computer with my name on it and pictures and emails, etc. that I'd sent them. I was talking about situations where someone (and yes, even someone we know) is, without our knowledge, obsessively collecting information about people, making files, tracking them, and doing all of this without a socially acceptable reason. I was NOT speaking to Maxime's concerns about Phillipa specifically, because I don't have any experience with Phillipa. I was addressing the issue of it being creepy to find out that you're being tracked, that information is being collected about you without your awareness, that someone you either don't know, or don't have a continuing relationship with, has a file with your name on it and they spend time searching for things to put in that file.
I really feel misunderstood, Dinah.. and I think it especially hurts because I've felt so (one-sidedly) connected to you for such a long time. It wouldn't bother me one bit if Bob misunderstood me and jumped to negative conclusions about me, but it really does hurt that somehow I didn't merit being given the benefit of the doubt when you read my response to Maxime.
:-( sol.
Posted by maxime on January 5, 2011, at 11:16:06
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 11:08:15
>
> > I keep photos sent to me by email, and emails sent to me. I also might bookmark items on occasion, if Babblers have posted links to them. I may even arrange those photos, emails, and links into folders. I like a tidy computer. I routinely keep things friends send me because I care about them. I'm sorry you find my behavior creepy.
>Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true. That's the difference.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 11:19:04
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 11:08:15
When I read your response to Maxime's post about Phillipa, I concluded that your response was also about Phillipa. Since I wasn't aware of any accusations of Phillipa doing the things that you were talking about, it was upsetting to me to have it brought up in connection with a post about Phillipa.
It was also rather upsetting to hear a sensible person talking about behavior I do routinely as creepy. It made me wonder if I *was* creepy.
Thank you for clarifying that you were not talking about Phillipa, and that you do not find organizing folders of information people have made available to you creepy.
I'm sorry I misunderstood. I hope you keep in mind that I haven't had a long association with you such that I would understand these things without asking. Perhaps because you feel you know me, it upsets you when I don't have the same knowledge of you? That I take your statements more at face value? Building a relationship takes time, I'm afraid. I look forward to be able to do so, if I can.
Although as things stand now at Babble, I am highly doubtful of my ability to tolerate an effectively unmoderated board. I had divorced myself entirely from Admin but I suppose this thread reached some unknown critical mass for me.
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 11:25:09
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Solstice, posted by maxime on January 5, 2011, at 11:16:06
Maxime - I think you were responding here to something Dinah wrote - not me (but my name is in the subject line)
Solstice
> >
> > > I keep photos sent to me by email, and emails sent to me. I also might bookmark items on occasion, if Babblers have posted links to them. I may even arrange those photos, emails, and links into folders. I like a tidy computer. I routinely keep things friends send me because I care about them. I'm sorry you find my behavior creepy.
> >
>
> Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true. That's the difference.
Posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 11:46:44
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:49:40
Dinah, you and Phillipa aren't the same. When it appears that Phillipa is being bullied here, it causes you to remember and re-experience the pain you felt when that happened to you as a child. That was a situation in which you had done nothing wrong whatsoever.
In this present situation, there have been allegation for several years, and by at least several people, that Phillipa has caused anxiety or harm to others by how she used e-mails or Babblemails. These are allegations only. The people who feel they have been harmed by this are posting here to try to prevent that from happening again in the future. They do have a right to speak up against what they perceive as injustices dome to them. They are thus fundamentally different from the children who bullied you in middle school - there was absolutely no reason or justification for that.
I think it would help tremendously if Bob helped out in this situation. in making sure that the civility rules are being followed when it comes to Babblemails, We need his assurance that this site is being run fairly and equitably. This would help a great deal to allay the distress and animosity which is developing in this thread and in others.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 11:46:44
Timely administration would definitely help.
But no matter what Phillipa did off board, threads like this are threads like this. They speak for themselves, and not about Phillipa.
You think you've received information about Phillipa on this thread? I've received information about each and every person posting on this thread. I've learned a couple of people are as wonderful as I always thought they were. Bless them.
Yes, this situation throws me back to my childhood. But no, Phillipa is not unlike me. Phillipa is a person deserving of respect. Just like me and just like you.
I didn't like it when Dr. Bob provided links to every one of your posts that led to a block. Perhaps you didn't like it either. I don't see this thread as being any different than that. Even if every accusation was true and without any additional context whatsoever. And I try to never listen to gossip when I have no idea of truth or context. Or even when I do.
Am I to learn from you that you think only some people should receive respect and kindness and support?
That some sorts of spreading of negative information about others is ok, while others aren't?
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:04:07
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
I tried to stay out of this for my own good but also for yours. I knew that if I said anything, people would start saying why doing what they did to you was ok. Which, if I were in your place, would hurt me. It has hurt me in the past, on Babble.
I am truly sorry for any hurt caused to you by my futile and stupid attempts to stop this.
If I were you, I think I would try to find a board where this wouldn't happen to you. One with timely moderation perhaps. Tho I understand not wanting to leave because of this.
I want to leave. I'm going to try to leave.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:06:31
In reply to Phillipa, I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:04:07
What I said just stirred things up more, and that was anything but my intent. I snapped I guess, and I regret doing anything that just leads to more of what I found so upsetting to begin with.
I think you ought to read and act on notifications within a 24 hour period.
You were right, I ought to move on from where I feel powerless.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:11:38
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » Dinah, posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 10:46:57
I know how much it hurts, and how disordering it is to life to lose a parent. It's different from other losses. Part of the firmament of life is disrupted.
Take good care of yourself. Grab onto solid ground wherever you can. You're a special person, and I want only the best for you.
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 12:27:37
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Solstice, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 11:19:04
> When I read your response to Maxime's post about Phillipa, I concluded that your response was also about Phillipa.
But they weren't. I never used Phillipa's name - I was specifically addressing Maxime's concerns about having information collected and dissemimated. Like Scott, I have no way of knowing whether what Maxime has described has actually happened. Having been a long-time reader, though, it is worth acknowledging that I remember reading about other posters periodically having similar complaints over a long period of time. If this were the first time an issue had been raised, I would lean toward being skeptical in an effort to give Phillipa the benefit of the doubt. However, Maxime's complaint is not the first verse of this song. The multiplicity of the compaint and complainors indicates a pattern that, although I have no personal experience, merits my paying attention.
> Since I wasn't aware of any accusations of Phillipa doing the things that you were talking about,well.. Maxime has said that she believes information is collected..
> it was upsetting to me to have it brought up in connection with a post about Phillipa.and again, I have no personal experience with Phillipa doing what Maxime has said.. but my post was intended to address Maxime's concerns in a general way. Bottom line is that based on my experience with being stalked, there really is no way to stop someone from collecting information and keeping files. That statement is not intended to validate charges against Phillipa - as much as it's intended to state a reality that we should all be mindful of. Maxime's life experiences likely make her particularly vulnerable to feeling very threatened by such things (as do mine) - maybe similarly to your experience with peer bullying making you particularly vulnerable to threads like these. I have particular vulnerabilities of my own - which includes my motives being misunderstood and that resulting in negative conclusions about me that are erroneous.
> It was also rather upsetting to hear a sensible person talking about behavior I do routinely as creepy. It made me wonder if I *was* creepy.I hope you understand now that I was not referring to the behavior you described! The 'creepy' I described is nowhere in the vicinity of what you are even capable of.
> Thank you for clarifying that you were not talking about Phillipa, and that you do not find organizing folders of information people have made available to you creepy.Right. I was not talking about Phillipa specifically. I was talking about the creepiness of stalking-type behaviors.
> I'm sorry I misunderstood. I hope you keep in mind that I haven't had a long association with you such that I would understand these things without asking.I'm always aware of the lopsided nature of my feeling connected to a community that hasn't had enough time/experience with me to feel a mutual connection with me. That said.. your post didn't leave me feeling like I was being asked anything. It felt to me like negative conclusions had been drawn about me without requests for clarification. I'm glad it feels resolved for me.
> Perhaps because you feel you know me, it upsets you when I don't have the same knowledge of you?I don't expect you (or anyone here) to have the same knowledge of me that I have of them. I am always aware of, and respectful of, that dissonance. It would be illogical for it to upset me.
> That I take your statements more at face value?
Keeping in mind my high regard for you, I don't think my statements were interpreted at face value. I think my statements may have inadvertently hit a raw nerve in you, leading to your life experiences leaking out into it. And know what, Dinah? it doesn't matter. I found this place because of my own pain. Your posts over the last 10 years were often like salve for me. Your self-insights, your generousity of spirit (think your T's recent abominable lapse in judgment!).. have helped me grow. Most of us are here because we have vulnerabilities. I feel privileged - honored - to accommodate the vulnerabilities of others.. in the hopes that when my own vulnerabilities crop up, I will be held in mercy.
> Building a relationship takes time, I'm afraid. I look forward to be able to do so, if I can.I know it does :-) My having been someone who silently soaked up the benefits of psycho-babble may even be a sign that it takes an especially long time for me to feel 'safe' enough to engage.. so believe me, I have a great respect for the time it takes. And I really do hope that you are able to allow yourself to give me a chance to earn a relationship with you.
> Although as things stand now at Babble, I am highly doubtful of my ability to tolerate an effectively unmoderated board. I had divorced myself entirely from Admin but I suppose this thread reached some unknown critical mass for me.I'm not even a little bit doubtful about your ability. One thing I do know about you, Dinah, is that you have an enormously compassionate and merciful core that seems to ultimately override things that happen along the way that make you want to protectively withdraw. I've seen you put yourself in harm's way on behalf of others, repeatedly. You've got an emotional stamina that you may not even see - but it's evident in how many times you have risen above your own pain... always with wisdom.. poignant self-awareness.. and mercy.
Yep... I'm a Dinah-fan. :-)
Solstice
Posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 13:00:33
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
Not at all, Dinah! You deserve the utmost in respect, kindness and support - you and everyone else. I was just trying to point out that while you never caused one moment of harm to the children who bullied you, Maxime is trying to redress damages which she feels were done to her by Phillipa. For your and Phillipa's situation to be comparable, you would have had to, say, allegedly spread malicious rumors abut the other children prior to their bullying iou. Of course, you did nothing like that, whereas Maxime has said that this was done to her several times. While you did absolutely nothing to provoke those horrible episodes of bullying, Maxime alleges that Phillipa did several things which she experienced as harmful.
Even though these two situations are different, in that one was
completely unprovoked and the other developed because of several alleged provocations, the emotions they arouse are so similar - raw and powerful. That is why we really need Bob to clarify the facts of this situation and the actions taken. If he does that, it will be a lot easier for us to adjust our feelings so that they accord with reality (I don;t mean you especially, I mean all of us. It's so hard to know how to feel when we don't know what is really happening)Dinah, just because I see one difference between your and Phillipa's situation doesn't mean I don't think you deserve respecr- of course you do - always!
Although I'm not sure why you brought it up, I have never read that particular post from Bob to me, because I knew if I did it wuld hurt me a lot.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 13:11:36
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 13:00:33
I was saying that Phillipa also deserves respect.
As do you.
People don't deserve these very long threads about their alleged wrongdoings.
If anyone has concerns about administration regarding certain behaviors, they can be adequately addressed without making it all about one person. Better addressed, in fact.
But what on earth is Dr. Bob going to do about emails? Uncivil babblemails can be forwarded to him and they will be addressed. That's difficult enough since context isn't as easily discerned as it is on board. Emails are out of his hands.
Again, I tell everyone. Don't email, babblemail. Don't send posters any information you consider private unless you have very good reason to trust that person. For example, if you know that person for a long time and have observed how they behave with regard to confidentiality and gossip. I'm sure more than one person has passed information on. Trust sparingly and appropriately. Be discreet. Be kind.
Report uncivil babblemails to Dr. Bob. There's nothing he can do about uncivil emails. Don't email others if you're worried about that.
I don't see why one person has to be singled out to make those appropriate points. There's something to be said about being discreet and kind on board as well.
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 13:33:14
In reply to Dr Bob, I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:06:31
> You were right, I ought to move on from where I feel powerless.
Perhaps you can feel more empowered by not expecting of yourself that you should have such power.
I am selfish. I want you to stay.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 13:33:14
I could possibly work for years to come to the point where I don't expect myself to have the power to achieve anything. I don't think I will ever get to the point where I don't say anything. Avoidance is easier.
(I had to skip Sunday School for a few months while they were doing a book I found rather anti-Semitic. I probably should have gone every week to point out the errors. But it was easier not to be there. What I am constitutionally unable to do was go and say nothing.)
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 13:11:36
> I was saying that Phillipa also deserves respect.
>
> As do you.I don't think that holding people accountable is necessarily disrespectful.
> People don't deserve these very long threads about their alleged wrongdoings.If the result of an isolated incident, I might feel the same way. However, I think that communities respond to their members in self-governing ways sort of naturally. Even animals do that. I think there would be something kind of abnormal going on if a community member was engaging in harmful behaviors to others, repeatedly over a long period of time and to multiple members - and the group of members didn't somehow react in a way that was driven by a need to extinguish the harmful behavior. That's the only way a society of any kind can cohesively exist for a long period of time. Cohesive doesn't mean in 'total harmony.' That's a ridiculously impossible utopia. It more means that it's about the whole group self-adjusting. I don't hear anyone calling for Phillipa to be banished or abandoned. But perhaps social pressure will succeed in causing Phillipa and everyone else to really 'get it' that this community is not tolerant of using babblemail to gossip and spread private information about other members whether accurate or not. And even though Bob is not able to monitor regular email, if community members use regular email to spread gossip or say mean things about others - although they may not get blocked - their behavior is likely to come back and bite them. I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
One thing I'm pretty sure of, is that it would be highly unusual for a community like this to without cause, have an assortment of members over a long period of time make random and unfounded complaints of the same nature about a single member.
As for as trying to handle it off-board, I think the multiplicity of the history of complaints means that it's not a problem for a single member to work out on their own off board. I think it really might be a Community problem. Reporting facts about things that have taken place is not uncivil or unkind. Reactions to factual events might become uncivil or unkind. That of course brings us back to the question of whether Maxime's report is factual - which again raises the issue of Maxime's report being the most recent of a long history of similar reports by various people. That alone lends credibility, even without Maxime attempting to get copies of communication (reportedly) sent to others about her.
With respect to Maxime - I think it's a mistake to 'kill the messenger.' I also think she has put a lot of effort into ensuring that the harm she has experienced doesn't drive uncivil postings about the matter. She needs to be heard. Both Maxime and Phillipa need to feel supported, but the support Maxime needs is different than the support Phillipa needs.
I am no expert - and perhaps there are things I don't yet see that may affect my view. These are just my thoughts at this time on the matter.
Solstice
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