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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by adelaide curtis on March 12, 2008, at 15:49:36
In reply to Re: dinah... » adelaide curtis, posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 15:16:25
i did find the post, thank you for pointing me in the right direction..
so, only people "reported" to be uncivil are uncivil, starting now?
where do i sign up for head cheerleader and who is holding all the butter-tarts?~
Posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 17:18:01
In reply to Re: Re your 'requests' » gardenergirl, posted by adelaide curtis on March 12, 2008, at 13:29:36
with Adelaide. Dinah is, of course, fully entitled to make any decisions she would like, and is also entitled to change her mind if circumstances warrant. I do feel very badly about her doing it in such a public manner, with dozens of posts giving her reasons for leaving, followed by many further ones explaining, to a minimal extent, why she has decided to stay. She has a position of responsibility, and her posts were so cryptic that many members of the Babble community experienced a lot of distress as they tried to follow the changes in her thinking. We first learned from her that changes in procedures were coming. Because she found them unacceptable, we were extremely concerned that we might feel the same. Many people began to ask Bob about what these changes were going to be. All these posts were accompanied by strong expressions of support for Dinah, and shock and distress that we were going to lose such a valuable person because of some unknown rule changes. At this point, there was widespread alarm and distress, which Bob should have addressed with us directly.
Instead, he ignored our distress and uncertainty, and spent his time reaching a solution to Dinah's personal concerns. She, having originally been extremely angry and critical of him, was able to come to a point where she felt comfortable enough to stay on. She gave us only a minimal explanation about what had gone on, We still don't know what the new rules are. Dinah's original anger at Bob then turned into OUR collective anger. We were furious that he was going to allow Dinah to leave, that he would place rules and regulations above a poster who had been so important in Babble's functioning. Our anger deepened and spread to include resentment over the imposition of rules without our input, and, as the week progressed, anger that Bob iwas declining to respond to a large number of posters who have genuine concerns and frustrations.
Long after Bob and Dinah have cleared up their differences, we are left with much higher levels of anger and frustration in our relationships with this site. I think that, in the future, deputies should be more responsible in how they use Administration posting in working out problems with Bob. I say this, because, while Dinah is able to solve her problem with Bob by direct, private communication, we can't. Numbers of posters picked up on Dinah's anger and frustration- these feelings became our
own, and many of us are still feeling them. Unlike Dinah, we have no way of resolving them.I feel confident that it was inadvertent on her part, but I think that Dinah, by posting so extensively about her own concerns and anger at Bob over some rule changes, set the stage for the entire community to adopt and magnify her original anger and frustration and then make those feelings their own. Unlike Dinah, we have no communication channel, public or private by which to work out those feelings. They are festering here, damaging the whole community. For this reason, I would like to ask Dinah to be more careful in the future. As a deputy, she has private ways of alleviating her concerns. She should not be using her position to incite anger and dissatisfaction in the Babble community as a whole.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 12, 2008, at 17:53:28
In reply to I have to agree..., posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 17:18:01
> with Adelaide. Dinah is, of course, fully entitled to make any decisions she would like, and is also entitled to change her mind if circumstances warrant. I do feel very badly about her doing it in such a public manner, with dozens of posts giving her reasons for leaving, followed by many further ones explaining, to a minimal extent, why she has decided to stay. She has a position of responsibility, and her posts were so cryptic that many members of the Babble community experienced a lot of distress as they tried to follow the changes in her thinking. We first learned from her that changes in procedures were coming. Because she found them unacceptable, we were extremely concerned that we might feel the same. Many people began to ask Bob about what these changes were going to be. All these posts were accompanied by strong expressions of support for Dinah, and shock and distress that we were going to lose such a valuable person because of some unknown rule changes. At this point, there was widespread alarm and distress, which Bob should have addressed with us directly.
>
> Instead, he ignored our distress and uncertainty, and spent his time reaching a solution to Dinah's personal concerns. She, having originally been extremely angry and critical of him, was able to come to a point where she felt comfortable enough to stay on. She gave us only a minimal explanation about what had gone on, We still don't know what the new rules are. Dinah's original anger at Bob then turned into OUR collective anger. We were furious that he was going to allow Dinah to leave, that he would place rules and regulations above a poster who had been so important in Babble's functioning. Our anger deepened and spread to include resentment over the imposition of rules without our input, and, as the week progressed, anger that Bob iwas declining to respond to a large number of posters who have genuine concerns and frustrations.
>
> Long after Bob and Dinah have cleared up their differences, we are left with much higher levels of anger and frustration in our relationships with this site. I think that, in the future, deputies should be more responsible in how they use Administration posting in working out problems with Bob. I say this, because, while Dinah is able to solve her problem with Bob by direct, private communication, we can't. Numbers of posters picked up on Dinah's anger and frustration- these feelings became our
> own, and many of us are still feeling them. Unlike Dinah, we have no way of resolving them.
>
> I feel confident that it was inadvertent on her part, but I think that Dinah, by posting so extensively about her own concerns and anger at Bob over some rule changes, set the stage for the entire community to adopt and magnify her original anger and frustration and then make those feelings their own. Unlike Dinah, we have no communication channel, public or private by which to work out those feelings. They are festering here, damaging the whole community. For this reason, I would like to ask Dinah to be more careful in the future. As a deputy, she has private ways of alleviating her concerns. She should not be using her position to incite anger and dissatisfaction in the Babble community as a whole.Twinleaf,
You wrote,[...has a position of responsibility...experianced a lot of distress..tried to follow changes...expressed with us...ignored...collective anger...imposistion of rules...left with much higher levels...in how they use...we can't...became our own...no way of resolving...in the..community as a whole...].
I think that your perspective here captures the main issues involved in others here that have posted that they are experiancing problematic psychological/emotional states from this situation. If you could continue here, could you offer a remedy to those that are experiancing the emotions that you have posted here? If you could, I think that this thread could be used for all members to come to the aid of those members effected by this situation here.
Lou
Posted by ClearSkies on March 12, 2008, at 18:14:22
In reply to I have to agree..., posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 17:18:01
I think you've hit the nail on the head with this post. That we've had this very public display from Dinah of a very private conversation about the policies and guidelines that, ultimately, affect us all. And still the administrator remains silent. It's perfectly disgraceful.
CS
Posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 18:18:58
In reply to Lou's reply to twinleaf's post-nwizthtym » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on March 12, 2008, at 17:53:28
Wow, Lou! That's the first post I have seen from you that I feel I might be able to answer!
I guess there's just the one- the one we all use in therapy- talking it over until we work out all the differences we can. Hopefully, the remaining differences will be ones we can live with reasonably comfortably. I would really like to see Bob address us all here. The latest problems arose out of proposed rule changes of his, which we learned about because they caused Dinah to feel she should resign from her deputy position. Bob's continuing silence, and his using Dinah to give a partial explanation, leave an extremely bad impression- of indifference towards others, and an unwillingness to accept the responsibility that goes with running an on-line community.
All of us are wrestling individually with stressful, uncomfortable feelings about this situation. It would probably help for us to share these with one another. We do tend to polarize, though- for or against, and I'm guilty of that, too.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 12, 2008, at 18:41:04
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to twinleaf's post » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 18:18:58
> Wow, Lou! That's the first post I have seen from you that I feel I might be able to answer!
>
> I guess there's just the one- the one we all use in therapy- talking it over until we work out all the differences we can. Hopefully, the remaining differences will be ones we can live with reasonably comfortably. I would really like to see Bob address us all here. The latest problems arose out of proposed rule changes of his, which we learned about because they caused Dinah to feel she should resign from her deputy position. Bob's continuing silence, and his using Dinah to give a partial explanation, leave an extremely bad impression- of indifference towards others, and an unwillingness to accept the responsibility that goes with running an on-line community.
>
> All of us are wrestling individually with stressful, uncomfortable feelings about this situation. It would probably help for us to share these with one another. We do tend to polarize, though- for or against, and I'm guilty of that, too.twinleaf,
You wrote,[...talking it over until...problems arose..of his...impression..indifference...responsibiblity...uncomfortable...share...polarize...].
I do agree that a {round table like} discussion could be fruitfull to remedy this situation with the perception on alleviating the emotional consequenses that some have experianced from this situation. Could you post here your first proposal for such?
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2008, at 18:48:11
In reply to Lou's reply to twinleaf-tilthcwzcumhom » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on March 12, 2008, at 18:41:04
Interesting is all I will say now but a question are e-mails private if sent to you that are not nice as can't understand how private communications between anyone not on the site have anything to do with authority and civility here. If so I have a ton of uncivil e-mails to me filed. So keep or delete? Love Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on March 12, 2008, at 20:16:09
In reply to Re: I have to agree... » twinleaf, posted by ClearSkies on March 12, 2008, at 18:14:22
My sentiments exactly!!!! And furthermore, I am saddened that Bob has left us to wither and die like a worm on a hook with no seeming care about our feelings. It is all fine and good for Dinah to tell us that he cares, but for me actions speak louder than words and his silence speaks volumes.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on March 12, 2008, at 20:19:49
In reply to I have to agree..., posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 17:18:01
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 20:45:25
In reply to dinah..., posted by adelaide curtis on March 12, 2008, at 10:43:37
I've said I was sorry. I can't do anything more than that.
I didn't expect this, and I tried to stop it all along the way. Maybe I didn't do well, but I tried.
People are angry with me. Ok, they're angry. I can't undo the past. And I didn't mean to hurt anyone.
Feel free to express as much anger at me as you wish. I *can't do anything about it*. Would I do it differently if I had to do it over again? Yes. Because I had no idea any of this would happen.
People might not believe me. That's fine. I am what I am. I'm not perfect, I never pretended to be. But I tried to speak honestly, I tried to stop the snowballing distress when I saw what was happening.
Please feel free to petition Dr. Bob to remove me as deputy if you believe I'm unfit.
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 21:11:13
In reply to Re: dinah..., posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 20:45:25
I never understood any of this. I tried to make clear from the beginning that I didn't blame Dr. Bob for this, that I took responsibility for my issues, and that Dr. Bob was doing what he thought was best.
I wasn't trying to incite anything. I didn't even want people to be mad at Dr. Bob at all.
I knew people would be angry, and I chose to come back anyway and face that. I take total responsibility for my part in starting this, even if I didn't have any earthy idea that this would happen, or even that Dr. Bob was unavailable.
I'm not going to defend myself. Whatever my intentions, I did cause this. I did cause pain and distress. I would not do that willingly for the world. But I did. Intentions don't count.
Posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 21:14:19
In reply to Re: dinah..., posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 20:45:25
Dinah,
I think it might help if you explain your postiion so that people understand a little better. I did read your post a few times and kind of got the gist of what you were saying but didn't totally get it.. But it is up to you of course. I know that you didn't mean to hurt anyone and when you made your decision public. It is bob who has hurt everyone here. You may have made a mistake in making your decision public but we all make mistakes. What bob did by ignoring all of us and causing so much pain is inexcusable. We are all reminded to be sensitive and civil and he has hurt so mnay people that it is shameful.
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 21:27:22
In reply to Re: dinah... » Dinah, posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 21:14:19
I thought I had explained everything. I've explained everything that I know about as soon as Dr. Bob told me I could.
If there's anything anyone doesn't understand, I think they'll probably have to ask me questions, because in my mind I've explained it and I wouldn't know what people were wanting me to say.
Posted by Fayeroe on March 12, 2008, at 21:49:42
In reply to Re: dinah..., posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 21:11:13
Dinah said "I wasn't trying to incite anything. I didn't even want people to be mad at Dr. Bob at all."
I've seen the administration cause enormous pain for the posters here and true to form, Bob goes scot free. It would be refreshing if just one time , no one enabled his irresponsible behavior.
Dinah, I have to ask you this, did you think through what might happen to the site when you and Bob started down the slippery slope of the private discussions (that you then hinted at in your posts) concerning rule changes for PB?The safety of the posters here should be the first concern of the administration.
Can you imagine a CEO and a vice-president of a large corporation handling personal differences the way this played out? Surely you understand the complexities of a large mental health support site and what the reactions will be of people left in the dark.
I do not think you should have made any of it public. As several have said, you have a direct pipeline to him and the posters don't have that priviledge.
I'm going to change this old saying, somewhat, as I don't want it to sound as harsh as it is orginally, "the road to chaos is paved with good intentions".
This is my last word on this mess as I refuse to provide anything else for Bob's projects.
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 22:01:42
In reply to Re: dinah... » Dinah, posted by Fayeroe on March 12, 2008, at 21:49:42
You're right. I should have just left without saying anything.
I'm sorry.
Posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 22:16:45
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to twinleaf's post » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 18:18:58
unfortunately twinleaf, there is no talking things out here.. I think I can talk all i want and admin is not going to listen. we can talk things out among ourselves but we are powerless to make any changes so it is kind of pointless
Posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 22:18:35
In reply to Re: dinah... » Fayeroe, posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 22:01:42
I think you were looking from support from your friends, dinah.. I probably would have done the same..Don;'t beat yourself up over this. It will pass.
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 22:35:34
In reply to Re: dinah... » Dinah, posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 22:18:35
That isn't what happened. I know people might think that. And I know people might think I was trying to blackmail Dr. Bob.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm a pragmatist. I don't try to change what I don't think can be changed. I just decide whether or not I can live with it. I just decide how best to proceed given what is inevitable. I used to tilt at windmills, but I don't any more. I've quit banging my head on walls. I accepted that Dr. Bob had his heart set on this. I recognized with my therapist's help that I couldn't play my role. So I did what I needed to do to stop the pain. Only to see this whole humongous thing happen.
I realize now that it wasn't so much my leaving as my telling part of why I was leaving without feeling free to tell it all without Dr. Bob's permission. I didn't want to get in trouble, as stupid as that sounds when I was leaving anyway.
And I'm glad it wasn't because I was leaving. It scared me to see what happened. It didn't make me feel better at all. Being Dinah is scary sometimes. People seem to think I'm someone that I'm not. It's a relief to know that it's because I screwed up, although I'm very sorry I screwed up.
For the record, Dr. Bob didn't ask me to explain. I've been trying to do everything I know how to calm this all down since I realized what was happening. I tried to calm it down by posting even when I really needed to stay away and get some distance. I asked Dr. Bob if I could explain because I stupidly hoped it might help. But I should have realized it wouldn't. I screwed up again.
Also, for the record, I told Dr. Bob he should address Admin before he addressed me. But I didn't refuse to discuss it if he didn't address Admin first. I guess I screwed up there too.
Posted by star008 on March 12, 2008, at 22:43:34
In reply to Re: dinah... » star008, posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 22:35:34
sorry dinah if I misunderstood.. I do think you are trying to make the best decisions you can and this thing has just snowballed out of control.. maybe it IS time to step back a bit. I think you were trying to give babblers some relief by explaining since bob obviously isn't going to show up.
Posted by All Done on March 12, 2008, at 22:53:40
In reply to Re: dinah... » star008, posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 22:35:34
Dinah,
I would have worried if you just disappeared without any explanation. I would have wondered if you were still a deputy. I would have missed you.
I understand why you didn't just leave without saying anything. And, I'm guessing, had you simply announced that you were no longer a deputy and were leaving the site, other posters would have questioned and perhaps even tried to demand an explanation. You told us what you felt you could upfront, and I appreciate you doing so.
Please don't beat yourself up over this. FWIW, I know you didn't intend for this to happen.
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
Take gentle care of yourself.
Hugs,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2008, at 23:34:34
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by All Done on March 12, 2008, at 22:53:40
Thanks Laurie.
I really appreciate that.
Posted by MidnightBlue on March 12, 2008, at 23:56:51
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by All Done on March 12, 2008, at 22:53:40
Ditto
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2008, at 0:00:59
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))) » All Done, posted by MidnightBlue on March 12, 2008, at 23:56:51
Me three.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2008, at 0:01:39
In reply to so, get off my back! (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by adelaide curtis on March 12, 2008, at 14:49:14
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2008, at 0:20:36
In reply to I have to agree..., posted by twinleaf on March 12, 2008, at 17:18:01
> with Adelaide. Dinah is, of course, fully entitled to make any decisions she would like, and is also entitled to change her mind if circumstances warrant. I do feel very badly about her doing it in such a public manner, with dozens of posts giving her reasons for leaving, followed by many further ones explaining, to a minimal extent, why she has decided to stay.
Dozens? Seriously? My impression is much lower.
> I think that, in the future, deputies should be more responsible in how they use Administration posting in working out problems with Bob.
I didn't see any posts from Dinah or any other deputy that were there to "work out problems with [Dr.] Bob". Instead, I saw posts from Dinah explaining as best she could under the circumstances that she was leaving. Any "working things out" between Dinah and Dr. Bob seemed to occur privately, as appropriate.
>Numbers of posters picked up on Dinah's anger and frustration- these feelings became our own, and many of us are still feeling them. Unlike Dinah, we have no way of resolving them.
Yikes, of course you have ways to resolve feelings. Perhaps if folks examine their feelings and reactions and parse out what parts they've "picked up" from Dinah, what parts are their own, what parts are about this event specifically and what parts are about something else in the poster's experiences; well perhaps they could make progress in resolving them independently. I think it's adaptive and helpful to do so as it puts the power for resolution back where it belongs, in the individual versus in someone or something separate from the individual.
>
> I feel confident that it was inadvertent on her part, but I think that Dinah, by posting so extensively about her own concerns and anger at Bob over some rule changes, set the stage for the entire community to adopt and magnify her original anger and frustration and then make those feelings their own.Perhaps she assumed that her feelings and reactions were uniquely hers, just as the feelings and reactions of others are uniquely theirs. Perhaps she counted on the power of adequate and appropriate boundaries to mitigate any influence her personal decision might have on others.
> Unlike Dinah, we have no communication channel, public or private by which to work out those feelings. They are festering here, damaging the whole community. For this reason, I would like to ask Dinah to be more careful in the future. As a deputy, she has private ways of alleviating her concerns.
And if she were posting about leaving in order to alleviate her concerns, I might agree with you. But I did not get that impression from Dinah's posts about this. If anything, it appeared she was trying to alleviate others' potential concerns instead of just disappearing. That's my impression, anyway.
> She should not be using her position to incite anger and dissatisfaction in the Babble community as a whole.
I agree with you here. No deputy or poster should. So it's good that that's not what happened here, eh?
gg
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