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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
Posted by McPac on April 23, 2003, at 0:39:36
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
Who says?
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 2:16:15
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
It can make a grumpy man smile.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 2:21:25
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
It can make a social phobic man friendly and outgoing.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 2:23:54
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
It can make an anxious man relaxed and calm.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 2:29:02
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
It can make an obsessive-compulsive man carefree and content.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 2:41:41
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
> I want to throw my Zoloft where it belongs (in the toilet). I want to inrease my serotonin naturally instead of using this chemical trash. Any ideas? Can you increase it enough with natural methods?
Hi McPac,I hear ya; I threw my SSRI’s away several years ago. There are a couple things that you can try. I can share with you the little I know on the subject, but Larry would know much more.
However, before I say anything, please tell me:
What is your dx?
What meds (and at what dosages) are you currently taking?
What meds have you tried in the past and what were the primary effects each of the medications had on you?
How much do you exercise and at what intensity level?
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 3:42:06
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
On the downside, however, chief among the brain’s reactions to artificially elevated serotonin levels is a compensatory drop in dopamine which can change a goal oriented, motivated, and ambitious man into a "do nothing boy".
-- Ron
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 8:09:17
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers? » stjames, posted by Ron Hill on April 23, 2003, at 3:42:06
I don't know how many millions of people
are swallowing a lot of expensive nothing
if serotonin does not help mental illness.Even if it wasn't serotoin at work, call
it what you want, I swallow these little
white beads, and I feel better in a few
weeks. Maybe not all feel better, but thats
why I am very thankful
Linkadge
Posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 10:55:38
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
> Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness.
>AD's regulate Serotonin. Thhy do not increase it in a traditional sence but hold more of it at the clef, which in turn causes a cascade of effects
up and down the neurotransmition system. In some cases this causes down regulation.When someone says "I want to increase Serotonin"
it seem to me to indicate a very bare understanding of what is going on. Therefore,
picking treatments based on a flawed understanding
yields poor or no results.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 23, 2003, at 11:04:24
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
> I want to throw my Zoloft where it belongs (in the toilet). I want to inrease my serotonin naturally instead of using this chemical trash. Any ideas? Can you increase it enough with natural methods?
I think the focus on serotonin with respect to depression is, at its worst, a mistake, and at the least, a distraction. If you want to increase serotonin naturally, buy some tryptophan. You can get it from some sources of veterinary feed supplements.
This isn't the greatest metaphor, but....
Tricyclic antidepressants were discovered totally by accident,what we call in science serendipity. Everyone wanted to know how they worked, and when it was discovered that they block serotonin reuptake, the search then went on to find drugs with a similar action with more benign side-effect profiles. So we got the SSRIs, and on it goes. On to the metaphor.
If you think of a neuron as a loaded gun, and neurotransmitters as fingers on the trigger, tricyclics might be seen as alternative means of pulling the trigger, by way of changing the trigger sensitivity. SSRIs are just different ways of doing the same thing, pulling the trigger. What has been lost in this focussing on a narrow (but observable) effect is that the real change occurs because a bullet is released.
Any time you simplify a complex system, you lose information. I fear that the simplification that declares depression to be the result of an imbalance in serotonin is really meaningless. To focus on just one chemical amidst a soup of other chemicals is wilful blindness. Just think about the blind men and the elephant.
Lar
Posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 11:54:42
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers? » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on April 23, 2003, at 11:04:24
Any time you simplify a complex system, you lose information. I fear that the simplification that declares depression to be the result of an imbalance in serotonin is really meaningless. To focus on just one chemical amidst a soup of other chemicals is wilful blindness. Just think about the blind men and the elephant.
Lar
THANK YOU LAR !!!.
It has been clear to me for years that with complex systems like neurology, simplistic
models like "increasing whatever" are flawed.This is also my consern about this site. People
seem to only leave with the understanding of "Oh, all I need is to increase X". I have been posting for years trying to correct this misconception, but few seem to want to listen and understand.
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 13:12:58
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 11:54:42
Most people here know that the sum of all
human happiness is not just Serotonin. We
do know is that SSRI's do two things.
1. Yes they do increase Serotoin, as measured
by spinal metabolite byproduct levels.2. They relieve depression for many.
The drugs may infact, and probably do
do more than that. But we haven't really
discovered what that is. We also
know that low Serotonin metabolites and
chronic cortisol elevations are among
the few measurable indicators of depression,(5HTAA only measurable upon death however)
We know there is a strong correlation between
5HT1 receptor expression and violent suicide,
and 5HT2 and sleep. We can induce depression
by lowering Serotoin with Resterpine, and
we can raise it by blocking serotoinin autoreceptors. We know that violent criminals often have a high testosterone/serotoin ratio. We know that 5HTP, the precursor to serotoin can effectivly treat depression in some. We know that there are very few clinically effective antidepressants that have no effect on Serotonin, and that the ones that do are virtually useless in treating suicidal idealation. We know that ECT has robustly alters Serotonin receptor density. We know that MDMA
(while bad for the brain) is possibly the best drug out there for depression, and it enhances the release of serotonin. Lithium raises serotonin and decreases suicide risk.So, no, thats not all thats going on,
but for goodness sake you'd be a fool
to think that Serotonin doesn't have
a certain deal to do with a whole
lot of peoples problems.Linkadge
Posted by Peter S. on April 23, 2003, at 13:50:59
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
Has tryptophan or 5HTP ever worked for anyone? I see tons of books and web sites saying that these are effective but have heard very little actual accounts that they work. I have a feeling that this hype from the natural remedy industry. I tried 5HTP and I was sleeping 14 hours per day. I've heard that tryptophan can augment SSRI's but again haven't heard of this working for anyone. I would definitely give tryptophan a try if I thought it would help.
Would love to hear people's experiences or info.
Peter
Posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 14:03:37
In reply to Just cuase SSRIs don't work for everyone..., posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 13:12:58
> So, no, thats not all thats going on,
> but for goodness sake you'd be a fool
> to think that Serotonin doesn't have
> a certain deal to do with a whole
> lot of peoples problems.
Please do not call me a fool. I did not
say "Serotonin doesn't have a certain deal to do with a whole lot of peoples problems."
Serotonin does, but not in the "lets just
make more and them we will be better" sence.
Posted by Paulie on April 23, 2003, at 14:28:30
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
From Depression-anti-aging therapies by James South
Increased brain production of serotonin through tryptophan supplementation does not automatically increase serotonin nerve activity. At low levels of psychobiologic arousal, there will be adequate serotonin to support the correlative low serotonin nerve activity, even when neuron levels of tryptophan and serotonin are low (22). This more apathetic, vegetative quiescent variety of depression ("I'm so depressed I can't even get out of bed") is referred to as the "apathetic-inhibited" type (22). This form of depression represents more of a deficiency of activity of the dopamine/ noradrenalin "yang" "get-up-and-go", activating neural circuits, and so tryptophan/ serotonin may offer little relief to, or even worsen, this type of depression.
At higher levels of arousal, however, the more rapid turnover of serotonin in the synaptic gap will require higher levels of serotonin production to adequately maintain the greater activity of serotonin circuits. Thus Young and Teff suggest that tryptophan will be most effective as an anti-depressant in those suffering from "anxious-agitated" depression, with its high state of stress arousal, combined with the depression (22). Anxious, agitated depression occurs when a person's dopaminergic/ noradrenergic activating ("yang") neural circuits are functioning strongly, without the calming, relaxing, mellowing serotonin circuits ("yin") functioning strongly as a complementary counterbalance.
Paulie
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 14:33:37
In reply to Re: Just cuase (sic) SSRIs don't ....., posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 14:03:37
There are two sides,those who think Serotonin does everything,
and those who think it does nothing,
I have mistaken you for the latter,I apoligise.
Linkage
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 14:36:46
In reply to Serotonin:good for some depressions,bad for others, posted by Paulie on April 23, 2003, at 14:28:30
This is true,
Thats probably where the 40 percent fits
into the gap of Antidepressant nonresponders.If you're going to take the 5HTP route then
add some tyrosine.Linkadge
Posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 15:01:13
In reply to Agreed / Sorry, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2003, at 14:33:37
>
> There are two sides,
>
> those who think Serotonin does everything,
> and those who think it does nothing,
> I have mistaken you for the latter,
>
> I apoligise.
>
> LinkageI would say I am in the middle, however I think
Serotonin is *just* one thing we understand. Many
others are involved, so concentrating on Serotonin
as the only agent in anyones illness is a mistake.
Posted by McPac on April 23, 2003, at 19:19:22
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 0:00:23
"Increasing Serotonin does not help mental illness".
"Gonggggg" lol
Posted by Ron Hill on April 24, 2003, at 1:29:47
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 23, 2003, at 19:19:22
McPac,
Hey, you didn't answer my questions. :-)
Here, read 'em again (please):
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030417/msgs/221686.html
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 24, 2003, at 2:15:44
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by stjames on April 23, 2003, at 11:54:42
Hi James,
I like you Mr. James Oracle. You were one of the first people I solicited advice from when I arrived at pbabbleland years ago. Keeping in mind that I am your friend, may I offer an opinion? If no, stop here. If yes, keep reading.
> This is also my consern about this site. People
seem to only leave with the understanding of "Oh, all I need is to increase X". I have been posting for years trying to correct this misconception, but few seem to want to listen and understand.Maybe the message is not the problem. Perhaps its the sharp edges on the package used to deliver the message.
-- Ron
P.S. Your stock is starting to make a move to the up side. ORCL closed at $12.00 per share yesterday.
Posted by stjames on April 24, 2003, at 15:04:24
In reply to Re: What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers? » stjames, posted by Ron Hill on April 24, 2003, at 2:15:44
> Maybe the message is not the problem. Perhaps its the sharp edges on the package used to deliver the message.
Well that is too bad, I like to cut to the chase.
Some do not like it and many seem to appreciate
my bluntness. Plus there are lots of people here to hold hands and say "Poor you". Since this kind of help never did swat for me, in getting well from my illness, and I have bee well for over 20 yrs, I will continue to be blunt.It is either that or assume people are stupid, and I do not want to think like that.
Posted by Bill L on April 24, 2003, at 15:10:20
In reply to What are the best Natural Serotonin enhancers?, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:13:04
I didn't read all the follow ups so I might not be adding anything. But the prescription AD's are very safe (for everyone) and very effective for most people. They are more effective than St John's Wort, Valerian, and some of the other natural remedies.
I think the best question to ask is what helps depression rather than asking what increases serotonin. Scientists do not know whether or not SSRI's or other drugs relieve depression by increasing serotonin. It's just a theory.
Posted by Ritchie on April 24, 2003, at 17:31:38
In reply to What's the deal with tryptophan and 5HTP?, posted by Peter S. on April 23, 2003, at 13:50:59
> Has tryptophan or 5HTP ever worked for anyone? I see tons of books and web sites saying that these are effective but have heard very little actual accounts that they work. I have a feeling that this hype from the natural remedy industry. I tried 5HTP and I was sleeping 14 hours per day. I've heard that tryptophan can augment SSRI's but again haven't heard of this working for anyone. I would definitely give tryptophan a try if I thought it would help.
>
> Would love to hear people's experiences or info.
>
> PeterI have been taking 5 HTP for about 2 months now. Besides taking it for sleep, I also take it to even out my mood and to curb carb cravings. I also just started taking Strattera for depression. The combination seems to work well with me. I swear by it but I suppose it doesn't work for every one. My doctor actually recommended it. The thing about HTP is it is rather expensive to take daily. I take 200 mg every night. I wouldn't recommend the 2 together with anyone who has an eating disorder, your appetite just literally disappears.
Hope this helps.
Jax
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